The Neuroscience of Dance with Sophia Martins

You're listening to the PT Profit podcast, episode number 107. Today I'm sitting down with Sophia Martins and we're talking all about the neuroscience of dance. Are you ready? Let's get started.

Hi, I'm Beverly Simpson, former fitness manager turned online personal training business owner. And this podcast is where smart fitness professionals, including trainers and clinicians, discover how to increase client performance in movement, package and position their products, services, and get out of their own way so that they can increase their revenue to live a life that they love without sleazy sales. Welcome to the PT Profit Podcast.

What's up, coach?

Thank you so much for pushing play.

On another episode of the PT Profit Podcast. I'm your host, Beverly Simpson, and if this is the first time you're hanging out with me today, welcome. I'm so grateful for you and I'm really excited to get into this episode. So right now, I am currently batching a whole bunch of interviews. My, my team, they're amazing and we had done a lot of interviews back to back and so I am currently doing all of the intros right now. So thank you so much for your kindness and patience. If you can hear some of the background noise, because my children, they currently are home right now. So thank you so much for your patience and also to miss sponsors. Sophia, who is the guest on this podcast, we recorded this ages ago and she probably was like, where's this episode? But it is here. So I am so excited to dive in because we talk a lot about the neuroscience and honestly what happens inside of our brain and how it impacts us in our performance. Now she specifically speaks and helps to helps dancers. However, this can be translated to our clients and also to ourselves.

So.

Sophia Martins is an international dance neuroscientist. She has trained in movement therapy and somatic practices and has a double degree in psychology and forensic psychology. She's worked as a mental health practitioner for four years. Through her Neuroscience of Dance project and Dance Integrated Healing method, she provides neurocognitive and dance healing tools. She's been helping dancers and dance teachers all over the world for the past two years with the following key aspects. Coping with injuries, neurological recovery, improving class environments and teaching techniques. Overcome struggles with memory, equilibrium, learning difficulties, improving mental well being, improving dance skills and using dance for healing purposes. Currently, she still assists in research, conducts the Dance in Medicine podcast, and occasionally teaches cognitive neuroscience and brain imaging research methods. So without further ado, let's go ahead and roll that interview.

What's up, Sophia? How are you? Thank you for Being on the show today.

Thank you so much. Thank you for inviting me.

Of course. I can't wait to get into the conversation today around dance and neuroscience. But for those of you who share a little bit with us about who you are, who you serve and how you got there.

Yes. So I'm a Dassauch and a neuroscientist, and I got here by just going to study neuroscience. And I was really lucky to have someone there, was doing dance, was doing research on dance. So he became my supervisor, and that's how I started researching dance and really merging dance with neuroscience together. So it was really lucky. It was. If I was. If at the time I was. If at the time I was wanting to do this, I wouldn't know how to. So this was just an opportunity that I had. And since then, I been studying all I can. I've been doing all the research I can in the field to be able to get even more information. Because it's a really recent field. And the point of my project really is to share the information with the dancers in a way that they don't have to know any neuroscientific concepts. They don't need to know anything about the brain or neuroscience. They can still get the good content and how, the good bits of the research and that can help them without having to go through all of that. And I think that's important that research is conducted, but also that is passed on to dancers because there's so much information that can help dancers. It's just being there on academia. So this project really works with that purpose in mind, but also to get to know what the community wants and what dancers need. So I can also pass that on to other places where they are doing research.

I love that. Okay, so can you just, you know, you said, you mentioned that this was a new field. So can you dive a little deeper into specifically what you mean when you say that you're a neuroscientist? And how specifically does it help the dancing community?

Okay, so. Well, I think research in neuroscience, in dance, neuroscientific research in dance can help dancers because of the cognitive side, first of all. So a lot of the things that I teach and a lot of things that are research is cognition. So how can dancers memorize what's their attention and how they can pay attention to so many things at the same time? So all those cognitive skills at dancers have. Can really inform the neuroscientific community about those cognitive processes in the human brain. So the scientific community gains from that. But also the nurses can gain from that because if you know how the brain works, then you know how to learn better, how to perform better, and how to overcome any struggle that you are going through. And there can be, you know, memory deficits if, if you struggle memorizing choreography, or if you struggle pay attention in class, or if you have neurodiversity as well. There are a lot of components where the neuroscience can really help dancers with all of that, and that, that impacts and influences the other aspect. It influences their mental well being because cognition and mental well being and emotion are interconnected. It also influences their performance, and it can potentially avoid injuries or any other physical or mental struggles that otherwise are really hard to avoid in the future. So at the end of the day, neuroscience works along with all the other fields that are now really focusing on dance, like psychology, physiotherapy. So all those fields that are now getting that focus, neuroscience is just one of them that really complements the other fields.

Okay, I love that. So can you carry me through a little bit of the process that you go through when you're working with the dancer?

Yeah, sure. So usually first of all, I give workshops and the general workshops. So people come in and I give them the information, I give them tips and techniques that they can apply, but also give space for, you know, all the kinds of questions that people come in with. Now in a one on one session, that's different, I'm focused on the individual, so it could be anything. So people will come to me for the most, you know, for all reasons. And what I do is an initial assessment to see what they're struggling with and if it's something that I can help. Because sometimes it may be something that I think maybe, you know, a psychologist is better or a counselor is better, maybe a coach is better. So first I assess and see if this is something I can help with and if this is something that can help with. Then there's an initial call where we discuss a little bit how the session is going to go and what things we can do. Because the assessment is so general, because it's so difficult to know what the person is coming to me for. And then there's this initial call just to clarify everything. And then we start the sessions and we go as, you know, as the person needs me. So let's say if they're struggling with, really struggling with neurodiversity, they're neurodivergent and they need some help in how to learn better, then, you know, I'll help With that. And we focus on small goals at the time and I give them small, small tips that they can, small techniques that they can go apply. And then the next session we evaluate and then we keep going, keep going until the person doesn't need me anymore. Sometimes this is really simple. Sometimes it's one session is a little detail there. And it's really impressive because it's impressive how just one small detail, one small, little thing, one small change can change the entire dancers career and learning and performance. And sometimes just a little thing that's, that is missing there. And so, so sometimes in one session, that's it. But sometimes it's a longer process.

I see. So how does a dancer come to understand, oh, something's wrong with my brain? Because I feel like most people aren't like, oh, the neuroscience behind my brain, right? How do they, how do they realize and come to the realization that there are some things that they can do to fix whatever their struggles are.

So the thing about this is that dancers, when they have like a one of these struggles, they tend to blame themselves. They tend to think, I am not intelligent enough, I'm just not good at this, I don't have talent. So there's this idea that something is wrong with them and their brains. And because there's no such. So there's not much help when it comes like to cognition for dancers, it becomes a little struggle there. And this is one of the things I try to do is to spread a little awareness. Why do you need neuroscience of dance? Why is this important for your well being? And you know, when they come across my website or they come across my content, then they can see, okay, oh, memory. This is interesting. I have, I have, I struggle with memory. Oh, okay, attention. I, I struggle with this. Or they look at the neurodiversity workshop or content and they're like, oh, this is interesting, I want to know more. And so that's often how they become aware. And usually they send me a post and they're like, oh, I like this post. Do you work with this? And this is how usually works. So I think it's this awareness that they may see something and may think, okay, I think I can see something can be done about this, which is really important because it gives them power back and it makes them understand there's nothing wrong with them. They are not, you know, they think they're not intelligent enough and has nothing to do with level of intelligence. So that's how it starts usually is people have these struggles, they take the blame, they Think it's a problem with them that they can't fix. They can get better, but then they see someone is doing something about it somewhere when they reach out for help. And sometimes it's, as I said before, it's such a little detail. It's just something. Just a little change in how they train will make a difference. And I'm not saying physical change, but just a mental, cognitive change on how they approach the material makes a huge difference.

So, you know, you might not know these stats off the off, offhand, but I'm just curious, like, what are your, you know, you know, what are some of the noticeable differences that you have seen from a cognitive standpoint after they've been working with you? Like, do they. Do they notice, like, an increase in their. In their ability to memorize choreography and their stress when they go into auditions? Like, what are some of, like, the big noticeable differences that your clients tell you that they see?

So I have all kinds of things, but I can tell you, like, the most common, which is memory, definitely. Or how many. I have so many people that come to me because of memory issues and attention is another one. Performance anxiety is another one. And I do everything from the neuroscientific point of view. So it's not really from the psychology point of psychological point of view. I try to address how the brain processes anxiety and stress and go from there. And so those are the three. I'm just thinking, if there's any other. But those are the three main points that people come to me for. And as I said before, I think the information I give is from the neuroscientific point of view. So oftentimes these things they haven't heard before or techniques they haven't thought about before because it's from the brain point of view. I'm not talking about mentally or physically. I'm really focusing on the brain. So this is where just. Yeah, now I was gonna say this is where they see the change because it's usually something they haven't thought before and that they can apply. And it complements everything they have been. Well, everything they. Information that they have already about that subject. And it kind of like adds. That is an add on that makes everything more complete and makes them be able to work on everything else they've learned before about that struggle and how to overcome it.

Okay, so now just, you know, you mentioned that you don't, you know, you just work on the neuroscientific part of it. So how. And not the psychology. But I feel like as Human beings, we are meaning making machines, and we're always fueling our experiences with emotion. So how specifically do you separate the psychology components from the actual brain components?

Well, I don't really separate them. Is more what. Maybe what I wanted to say is my focus is on, okay, but there is obviously all other components. And I have a lot of experience in mental health, and I did my degree in psychology, so I'm not completely far away from that. But I try to focus on that because people come to me because it's neat of science, of dance, they thinking about neuroscience, they thinking about brain. So for me. For people to come to me and I give them a regular, you know, just psychological advice or that I'm not. It's not really my expertise. I mean, it is, but it's not my biggest expertise. So I really want to give them information that I know on that subject. So it's more. There's a lot of focus on the brain and how the brain processes things. And, you know, we talked about emotions. How does the brain process process emotions? And how is that related to cognition now, how one thing influences the other. And I think that gives them a bigger picture of what's going on actually up here in their brain. What's going on there, how is the communication between different structures? And that really explains a lot of what happens. And that usually helps them make sense. And if you know how your brain works, then you know, you can. There's a lot of things you can do about it. And a lot of the times people also have that curiosity, like, I want to know this. I want to do the brain level, how this works. And, you know, some people are really geeky, and they want to know everything, like the names and just everything, like really scientific. Other people just want to know from the surface. And my workshops are really good equilibrium and balance between those two, because I get all kinds of people. But even in the workshops, people go to the workshops, they. They'll take things from there. They. That makes a change, a big change. This is what I get on the feedback that people give me all the time is, I never thought about it this way. This complements things that I learned before, and now it makes sense, and now it's complete. So is this. Is it like a white ball that people have during the workshops, and they start making connections with things they've done before, which is something I really tell people to do. Make connections, think about your knowledge in the past and how this applies, because oftentimes that's how you get to a solution.

Okay, so cool. So now, you know, I'd love for you to use. You mentioned it a little bit earlier. I'd love for you to expand a little bit on like, you know, how does the brain work? How do you explain how the brain works?

Well, oftentimes people come to me, they don't have any knowledge. So usually I, I don't focus so much on the names and location and natsume that's not what, that's not important unless people want me to. Then I'll do that. I focus more on the function of each brain area and the relationships. So as relevant, of course. So let's say someone is talking about memory. Then I'll talk about the hippocampus and what it does and how memory is formed and what is the process and why memory lapses occur and what's happening in the brain when it happens and what can influence that. So it's really more focused on explaining the process than really explaining the actual brain in terms of the brain areas and their location and they're the natsume and neurotransmitters because that, that doesn't help anybody because that's just too, too much information. People just want to know the, the surface of the information. What, what can I take from here? But I had occasions where people really want to know everything by, you know, everything in detail and which is fine as well. But oftentimes people want to know the goodness without having to, to go through all of that confusion of how the structures work and the chemicals and all of that. So this is how I do it. And I always do it in a fun, interesting way. So I like to teach neuroscience in a way that is I make analogies and examples and I make jokes about the structures because that really keeps people engaged instead of. This is really boring. And stop explaining me this complex process for one hour. And this is how I do it.

So for our purposes though, I would love for you to share a little bit about like what's, what's happening in the brain when someone's experiencing memory loss.

Memory loss. Okay, hold on. There's memory loss or memory lapse, because memory loss, we can be talking about something clinical or.

Memory lapse.

Okay, just to clarify, because if, if I'm going to say something and it's like, no, that's not memory loss. Sure. In a memory lapse, something has. So first of all, when you have a memory map, something has interfered with that automatic pathway that you created because a memory is a pathway that was stabilized and created. So a neural pathway in your brain a specific communication that goes from one point to the other. And that has been settled. So that's in your long term memory. It's there for months, years or forever. So when that happens, something has really disturbed that connection over there. And that can be a lot of things. It could be anxiety. And the brain is really focused on keeping you safe because that's basically anxiety. Your brain is focused on survival, keeping you safe. That can be a destruction. So the brain had to direct attention to something else and disrupt it. That pathway from running, from activating properly. It could also be confusion on that memory. So if you have a long term memory that is not solid, that is just. There's a lot of confusion, or it could be a detail in the choreography that you're not sure about, or you didn't, it wasn't solidified properly, then that can interfere or that can cause confusion because you, then you can be confused about, I don't know, is this movement or was the other one, if you're not sure. So there's a lot of different things. And this is when it comes to memory lapses. I always try to see what's happening first. So I'm trying to understand what is causing you this. And then there's a lot of other components like low self esteem, lack of self, compassion, confidence. You don't believe that you can do it. So it's causing all this emotional stress that then again is related to cognition, is related to memory and is really influencing your ability to recall. Because let's say, for instance, you have low self confidence because something happened in the past, a bad experience. When you are in that same spot, that memory can pop up that that memory of that bad experience. So it's already interfering with your memory of the choreography or the performance. So there's a cognitive load happening there because there's so many things the brain is trying to do and then you're trying to focus on something that that's not going to happen. So this is why a memory lapse, of course, and obviously there's a million other reasons that this can happen. And it's usually individual by individual. There's something specific that they have that they're trying to work with. And this is where I help them manage that in my best capabilities. Sometimes it's something that I cannot help because sometimes it may be a clinical case or they may have something at the neurological level that's just totally out of my capability of helping because I'm not a doctor. And so usually I direct them to A physician that can help them. So usually it's performance anxiety. And at least from my experience, I see a lot of the times it's performance anxiety. But it also as well has to do how the movement is taught and how the movement is learned. So when a movement is taught, there's a lot of things that can interfere with the consolidation of memory or. And that you can do to help that memory process, to strengthen that memory as much as you can. For instance, how, when the movements are. When the choreography is taught in phases, so they say, okay, this is a set of movements, then is this one, then is this one, then is this one. And if you teach, you keep teaching the same thing. First set, second set, third set, fourth set. That's not really helping your memory because if you forget something about the first set and then you relying on the other bit to recall, then it's a big mess. So usually what's advisable is to do different sets. So let's say first set of movements and second and third and fourth, then change them. Then suddenly the first set of movements, it's broken into two sets. And then just interchange how the connection between those phases is because they can really help recall later because there's so many different ways the brain can recall the same thing. So sometimes it may have to do with that. And usually your representation of the movement, when you're learning it, you represent it in your brain needs to be really solid as well, because your memory is based on that. So you can see how sometimes memory struggles can go way back to the beginning of wanting the movement to the first second you want the movement. And usually. So it's this thing where people think, okay, memory has to do. So memory lapses, it's because of the memory of the movement. Sometimes it goes way, way back. Sometimes it goes from the minute you see the movement. And if whatever you're thinking that moment is already building on your memory, is already influencing how your memory. So if you're thinking a lot of negative things, I can't do it. This is difficult, there's no way, etc. That emotion is being attached to the memory already when you're forming it. And then if you go and look at research of memory and memory by the emotions and how it's processed, etc, you'll see that, you know, there's a big impact on your ability to recall.

Now you, you were talking about, you know, perform, you know, performance anxiety is often part of it. And it, you know, often it sounds like it influences each other though, right? Like Isn't there a cause and effect? Like if you're not memory remembering the movements, then you're gonna cause performance anxiety. So how do you really determine what the root cause is and go after that?

Well, you know, this is the thing you never work. Well, if I, if I have somebody and I say, okay, this is a performance inside that is causing all of this. I never just work on the performance anxiety. I work on everything. So we work on ways to improve memory, but we work on ways to reduce performance anxiety. So we're working on everything because as you said, it influences each other. So if we improving both things, they're gonna influence each other positively and then we get a good result. So I never work on just one thing because the brain is too complex. You should say, okay, I'm gonna work on this and everything else is gonna be fix. So this is my approach to really work on everything I can. And we do it slowly because sometimes there's a lot of things like, oh, what do you mean? Now I have to do this and that and that. So we do like little by little. And it's the same thing when wanting a movement. Right. We learn little by little how to do the movement is the same structure.

Yeah. So I'd love to talk about a little bit about, like, what are some of the things that you, you do for the brain to help it. Now, of course, I realize that it is. That it is individual, every person dependent. So just, you know, and I realize, like, just for the podcast, I know that this is taken out of context, so don't. Long story long. But, you know, I'm just curious, you know, what are some of the exercises things that you do in your process?

So are we talking about memory or as an example?

We can specifically use memory as an example.

Okay, so see, if, if I'm gonna say just something. Okay. Things that I do, then I can use examples in the workshops. I give general things.

Yeah, okay.

I'm just giving people general. And this is one of them. The. The one I just said about, you know, changing the. When you learn choreography is good to change the face. So the faces of movements and the sets of movements and how they are taught, that's one of them. But there's another, another one which is using all kinds of cues like visual, proprioceptive, so how the movement feels auditory. The more different types of cues we have in terms of using all of our senses, the more the brain has. So the more resources the brain has to recover from. When you have a memory lapse and you're trying to recover the more specific. So the more different areas of the brain that has been stored, the better are your chances of being able to retrieve that. So we want to really have the multi sensory approach to learning movement or choreography. So usually we rely a lot of vision in the, on the mirrors. Vision, vision, vision all the time. But we forget others. We have so many other senses that we can explore and try and incorporate as much as we can. So that's another example. So this is just general things that I teach in the workshop and obviously I explain why, there's a theory part where I explained the why and how, etc, present the studies, all of that. But this is just at the end. There's always, you know, tips and techniques and there's this general things that you can do straight away when you go back to the studio. But then a lot of the times the specific personal approach is needed. But this is just in general. So this is one of the, like a few examples of exercises that I indicate or changes that I indicate. All based on research. Of course. It's not just my opinion. I just feel like this is all based always on research that has, you know, studying dancers and those were the results. And these things we can do to, to apply and that at least until now, everything has been a good feedback from dancers that it has worked for them that they notice a change or they applied. Sometimes you can apply these general things I just told you to your own, so you can kind of like change it. And a lot of dancers came up with amazing creative ideas. So, you know, I applied this day, you told me, but I changed it. And we don't pay, don't need this, like it's better for me or is more suitable for the studio or the dance style that I'm doing. So a lot of the times the dancer will also change the exercise to their own personal needs.

So, you know, I also am curious because you were talking about, you know, how we can signal to the brain using all of the senses. I feel like we hear a lot. You know, I'm a visual learner, I'm an audio learner, I'm a kinesthetic learner. Right. And so I feel like people tend to just rely on their predominant learning the way that they've been told that they learn the best. So I'm just curious, do you think that we need to look at it from a holistic approach in terms of our senses or do you think we, we really only have, you know, you're a best learner. Visual like is Basically what I'm asking is, can someone who is predominantly visual also take in auditory, also take in kinesthetic type of learning?

Yeah. So you're talking about the multiple intelligences. Intelligence. That's a lot of. So you know, each person. Maybe the thing about this is that because I'm a visual learner, and I can say that I'm a visual learner, but when I say that, and this can be quite dangerous because we. You can have multiple. You can be visual learner, but also an auditory learner, or you can depend on the task. You may be doing something like this and you may be more visual learner, but you may be, I don't know, playing piano, and suddenly you're more auditory learner. So this is. This fluctuates. It's like the brain is not a specific thing, and it's like that. And it's just. So you can be a lot of different things depending on the task, or you can be, you know, more than one thing for one task. So I think we should, how you say, emphasize that. So we should emphasize that if you want a visual one that. Make use of it, you know, make use of it. And you know, if you want through pictures, then do everything you can to really emphasize that, because that's your strength there. But don't ignore everything else. And a lot of the times what can be done is if you. Let's just focus on lens, I say I'm a visual and I focus on that, and I really bring that strength. So if I went through images, I pay attention to patterns and shapes and my neurodiversity course, I talk about all of these. What you can do. If you are a visual learner, then what you can do to really strengthen that. But also you shouldn't just stop there. So I don't just stop there. If I know I need, you know, I'm really weak in my auditory learning, then I can go and do other activities that will strengthen that. For instance, if I know I'm a visual learner, so I know my kinesthetic learning, so the how the movement feels is not that great, then I can go and do yoga, somatic practices, other things that will strengthen that for me. So a lot of the times you have to get out of dance, go and do something else to complement your dance practice, and that's that. That's the best, really the best way to do it. But, you know, don't try and go against what you are. Don't try. I'm a visual and I can't be anymore. That's it. Now I need to do something.

So you know, I'm. I'm curious. You were saying too that you know, to work on maybe some of your other learning capabilities that you might not be predominantly, you know, like you, you. It might not come as naturally as say visual but I've heard people say before, oh no, no, don't focus on your weaknesses. I'm putting that in quotations and really emphasize your strengths because that's what's going to carry you and drive you further, you know, drive you further. So how, how much of our energy should we, we really be focusing on trying to strengthen all different types of learning if we're struggling with say something like memory lapsing.

Okay, so first I agree with that. You have to focus on your strengths and that is where your energy should be go the most because that's your strength. But you can't just ignore your weaknesses. They're still there. So if you, if you're really weak in terms of let's say your kinesthetic intelligence and you really have a hard time in feeling the movement in let's say knowing where your body is without having to look or if you rely a lot on the mirrors, let's just give this example. Then you have to say that weakness is not going anywhere if you don't focus on it and it's really going to go, it's really going to affect your performance. So you want to work on that. So we should be working on our, I don't like to call it weaknesses because they're not weaknesses. It just points to work on. So and you know, everyone has different points they need to work on. So there's just, I feel like weaknesses may be a strong word for especially for dancers because they think I'm weak. That's not what it is.

So yes, but areas of opportunity.

Yes. So I think it's really, you know, not ignoring them, working on them. But I think it's important to focus on the strengths because it also brings your self confidence. If you're just focusing on the weaknesses then you feel like you don't have any strength and being a visual one, especially neurodiversity when neurodiverse people they think they, you know, they may think they not intelligent enough, they're just weak, they're not use, they're not useful, etc. All kinds of things. When actually each ish nero divergent people person has a really good strength. They bring so much into the community. So as a student or as a teacher You. You should be focusing on that but not disregarding. They have maybe points they need to work on and that can help their performance.

I see. So now why dancers specific? Is this only for I. Is there, you know, would this benefit other. I mean, how did you get into dancing specifics?

So. So how did I focus on that specifically, or.

Yeah, let me rephrase that question for you. When you got into this work, what caused you to focus on dancers specifically?

Oh, okay. So as I said before, you know, I had the opportunity to research dance when I was doing my studies, and that's how I got into dance. So before that, all my neuroscience and psychological knowledge was just, you know, general. Like the general population, I'd say. And then as I started researching dance, my focus became on dance. So in terms of, like, neurodiversity, I'm going to focus on dancers because I think it's a population, especially when it comes to neurodiversity. That is, neurodiversity is not as considered as it should be. You know, teach. Every teacher should have some kind of training in that, because a lot of the neurodiverse people do come to dancer classes, and they are a big part of our community. We need to support them. And by supporting them, we gain them so much because they have so much goodness to offer so many good things. So, you know, my focus was really. Is really on that because it's. My work is what I do. It's a project I have, and that's how it happened.

I see. So do you have any background at all?

Anything?

Did you dance?

Oh, yes, yes. That word was missing somehow because of the network. And I'm like, yes, I danced for. It's gonna be nine years now. And I'm also a dance teacher, so. And yes. Yeah, I don't teach dance. I used to now. The project just took over so much of my time that I only do, like, little salsa dance workshops. It's rare that I teach dance anymore, but yeah, and also, you know, I started dance late. I was 20. Yes, I was 20. I was turning 20 when I started to dance, and it was quite late if you compare to how you know when people start dancing. So I do know the struggles of an adult dancer when you start dancing when you're already an adult, because it's different struggles that you go through. So it's a different perspective than when you are growing up and then you went in dance, you go to different challenges and also go against that idea that you have to start really early or you lost Your chance. That's not true. I became a dancer, I became a teacher. And, you know, it's really not about age and the idea that your brain starts, you know, decaying when you get old and your cognition goes down. It depends on how you live your life, how do you engage your brain and how, how you keep your brain health.

Okay, that, I mean, that's so, that's so cool. What type of dance do you work with?

So I did belly dance, but now I always explain that I didn't do the regular belly dance. And the belly dance that I did was a belly dance fusion. So it fuses, fuses all the dance styles into. It's all kinds of nostalgia, fused, like tango, hip hop, contemporary. Everything is like kind of fused into that. So it's difficult to explain because you get movements from everywhere. But it's at a certain point, halfway through, I decided not halfway through, but two years ago, I started learning contemporary dance. So in that style, I'm still a beginner, not a professional yet, but I had this interest for just contemporary.

I see. Okay, cool. I love that. Oh, when you are, when you're, when you're working with your dancers, how long does these, you know, changing these neural pathways or building neural pathways in the brain typically take?

That's. That's a question that is impossible to answer. Yes, it depends on each person. It depends on so many factors, but I think the importance is not the speed, it's the quality of the work we are doing. You can change something really quickly, and then if it wasn't done properly, it's not going to have a good effect. So it's really the process. It's like, let's say, an example. When you're trying to lose weight, you go on diets. If you go for the quick diets, then you go back to the same cycle. But if you work slowly on your eating habits, step by step for over a year, maybe two, then you get your changes and they're permanent. So I don't focus on speed. I think slower is faster always.

Okay. So you know, you know, you hear things like, it takes 21 days to change a habit. It takes 66 days to change a habit. Okay, yeah, great. So not true. Give me the, Give me the truth.

No, no, because that really depends on the person, first of all. So the person has, let's say in dance, the person has a motor history, they have a personal history. They have so many things there that can influence the speed or not. It depends on the motivation. It depends on how they adapt to whatever exercises or whatever habit they're trying to change. It depends on the environment, depends on their support, depends on so many things. So the brain, as much as we like to think, is a computer, it's not a computer. It's a messy computer. It's a computer that has so many different components in flight. So it's not just click and it works or do this and it works. And, you know, there's a lot of different components influencing each other all the time. So it's really 21 days and 15 days. It's giving one thing that works for everybody. I just talked about neurodiversity. Every brain is neurodiverse. Every brain is different. It's impossible to put a label on all brains.

Yeah. Okay. Well, I definitely want to be mindful of your time. So for any of you who want to learn more about what it is that you do and who you work with and, you know, really getting down into the neuroscience, where. Where's the best. Where are the best places that I could send them?

So My website is www.neucenceofplants.com, so you can go there and there's free resources, very good content that you can check examples of my workshops and what kind of things I teach. So a lot of free content that you can access. There's what about me, about the project, about the team, everything, partnerships, etc. And then you can go to either Instagram or Facebook and type Neuroscience Advanced and it should come up straight away. So those are the ways to find me. Feel free to send me a message if you have any questions. I'm always happy to chat about anything.

Okay, cool. And of course we're going to link all that up in the show, so not to worry about it. Okay, Sylvia, appreciate it. You blew my mind and my brain with all these awesome that you are teaching us.

Thank you so much for inviting me. It was so much fun.

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