The Truth About Procrastination with Dr. Christine Li

You're listening to the PT Profit podcast, episode number 156. Today I'm sitting down with Dr. Christine Lee, and we're talking about the truth about procrastination. Are you ready? Let's get started.

Hi, I'm Beverly Simpson, former fitness manager turned online personal training business owner. And this podcast is where smart fitness professionals, including trainers and clinicians, discover how to increase client performance in movement, package and position their products and services and get out of their own way so that they can increase their revenue to live a life that they love without sleazy sales. Welcome to the PT Profit podcast.

What's up, coach? Thank you so much for pushing play on another episode of the PT Profit podcast. I'm your host, Beverly Simpson. And if this is your first time hanging out with me today, welcome. Super pumped that you're here. I'm really excited to bring to you a very special guest, Dr. Christine. She her and I are in the same mastermind group coaching program together. And she is an incredible genius and clinical psychologist working in a private practice in New York City in Westchester, New York. She's conducted procrastination workshops at Columbia University, New York Presbyterian medical school, the New York City guitar school, the YMCA and and all around the New York City community. And inside of this episode, she is going to be shar with us, over 20 years of experience and she talks a lot about her personal journey, how she got to where she is now, truth about procrastination, what it is and how to move through it. So without further ado, let's go ahead and roll that interview. What's up, Christine? I'm super excited to have you on the show today. How are you doing?

Hi, Beverly. I am doing really well. How are you?

I'm doing so good. I'm super excited to get this episode up and recorded. I know that we've been talking about this for a while, so I'm really excited that we finally. We finally got to get it together. So I'd love for you to share with us a little bit about who you are, who you serve and how you got there.

Okay, great. Thank you for having me on the show. Hi, everyone, who's listening? I love Beverly. I love her work. I love her enthusiasm. My name is Dr. Christine Lee. I'm a clinical psychologist. Beverly and I are both in New York. Yay, New York. And I've been a psychologist for more than 20 years. And about 10 years ago, I decided to take this show online and call myself procrastination coach because I myself had recently figured out that procrastination wasn't something that I needed to suffer from or with anymore. And it was a big shift in my own life. And I knew instinctively that there was more work for me to do with a broader audience, a global audience, hopefully a global audience. And that decision and that knowledge that these are easy skills that can transform people's lives. Lives really helped me to have so much fun over the past decade, working with one on one clients live, but also in groups and memberships and trainings and lectures and podcasts with people like you, just helping people to really uncover what is that thing that really keeps holding me back. And like I just mentioned, I'm a lifelong procrastinator. So I've been there, I empathize, I can understand how funny it is, how bonkers it can feel, how stressful it can be, and how important it is to uncover the reasons why you're doing it and to get rid of it from your life.

So this is so exciting and powerful and I can't wait to dive in deep. So for our purposes, would you mind clarifying and defining specifically what you mean when you use the word procrastination? Like what is, what is the truth about procrastinating?

The truth about procrastination is it's super complicated, actually, because when you think about it, why would we do this? Why would we procrastinate when we know what we want, what we, we know oftentimes the steps that will be needed to get there. And yet we stand still or even hold ourselves back. And so it's this thing that doesn't make sense to people. People get really embarrassed about the fact that they're doing something that doesn't make any sense or is shameful. And then for those of you who aren't seeing us on video, the shameful is in quotes. Because you will see that I'm all about dumping the shame and getting rid of that. And so for me, the definition of procrastination is when you know you could be doing something and you purposefully decide that you're going to delay. So it's a very simple definition. And of course, this can apply to brushing your teeth, paying taxes, being an authority in your own online business, going for what you want, saying you love someone when you feel it, and it's just a tug of war within ourselves. And I think when you decide that you're actually braver than any fear that could come into your heart, everything opens up. It's like a brand new life that you can be Living. And I think I've been riding that wave for the past 10 years. I feel like nothing can go wrong. I've got so much energy. Even when I don't feel like I have physical energy, I have this life energy that I know can't be extinguished because I figured it out. I know that there's always a way. There's always a solution. I could always take a break, and I could always find a way if I want something for myself. And that's very freeing.

What are some of the ways that you, you know, you see in your patients or saw in yourself or see in your clients, the. The things that would potentially be considered procrastinating, essentially. However, people will often dismiss it or say, oh, that's not procrastinating. It's, you know, not meant for me. What are some of the things that behaviors that people will get into when they're procrastinating and don't realize it?

Well, one thing that you just alluded to was not believing that the things that are interesting to you are meant for you, because why would you be interested in them if they weren't meant to be in your life plan or life path? And that's one thing. So if you're curious about something, if you're just fascinated by what is what, why is Beverly, like, looking so good on TikTok, you know, why am I holding myself back? If you're curious about that and Beverly is killing it on TikTok, you want to think for yourself what is being stirred up inside of me. Those things are real. They're not there accidentally. Life is too short for your body and mind to be giving you junk messaging from inside. So your feelings, those nudges, feelings of jealousy, envy, those are all messages that your body is sending to you about what you actually desire. But not only that, what you're actually capable of. I really do believe that. And another way that I see people maybe delaying without really realizing or acknowledging it is saying, what if, what if this, what if that, and exploring all the options. I'm someone who personally likes to know all the options, likes to overthink, likes to ask everybody what their opinion is. But in my heart, I might actually know. I know what I want. I know what I think is the right way to get it. So I try to steer clear of the what ifs these days, because if there's one thing that you learned by being a therapist is that anxiety doesn't get you anywhere. 20 years of listening to this, I know that people worry, and then the Thing that they worry about doesn't come to pass or it doesn't come to pass in the way that they are thinking. So I say save the time up front. Get rid of the what if, what if this, what if that, what if this, that or the other, and just make an attempt. Throw that fishing rod out into the lake. I don't know why I'm thinking about fishing right now, but do the action. And I was thinking this morning, there are three components to every successful behavior. That's the thought, that's the feeling, and that's the action. And procrastination can happen when you've got one or all three of those things tied up. You're overthinking. If you're overthinking, it generally means you're not taking action. So that leads to procrastination. If you're feeling scared about something, but you have the plan all thought out and ready to go, your feelings are going to hold you back because you're going to go slowly, you're going to miss the opportunity, you're going to let somebody else take that job instead of you. And we've all done this. So I'm not telling you anything that you don't really know, but I'm saying it more concretely. So next time you can say, okay, what are my thoughts about this? What am I feeling about this? How can I convert my feeling so that it's in the direction of what I want instead of against it? And then taking the action and feeling good about that action, being committed about it, no matter how it turns out, that you're going to go full force for what you want.

Good. That's good. Nice and simple. I love that three step process. I'd love for you to expand a little bit more on. Can you share a little bit more about your specific process and how you carry someone through the journey of acknowledging it and then actually making the behavioral change? Like, what is some. What does that process look like for you?

It's different for every person. So that's one thing. But I would say something that is absolutely important is helping the person to feel safe in their own thoughts, actions and feelings. And so much of therapy is the feeling side is saying, like, let's go through all of the possible what ifs, let me have them and let's have you do this week after week until you realize you're still wanting the same goal. You're still interested in producing that paper or getting that new job or getting that promotion, or getting your child to pick up the socks, whatever it is, and realizing that you actually have clarity inside. So it's not my view into what the person wants for themselves, it's having them realize that they really already know and that all this hesitation is really just delaying what they want. And then when you're working with someone after years and years and years, you have a whole record of their successes. So they might come up with a brand new worry or a brand new task that they're feeling they're having a hard time with. And then you remind them, oh, well, it's interesting to me from my vantage point because you've succeeded at every other thing you've attempted. And then people smile, people sigh some relief, but we forget because everything seems like another huge mountain to climb. And I think when you just get rid of that negativity inside and that self doubt that tends to crop up immediately, then things don't feel like mountains anymore. They just feel like to do list items. And then you start not being afraid of to do list items. So don't be afraid of opening your email. Don't be afraid of introducing yourself to someone new. Don't be afraid. That's the message really. That's how I work with people. Nothing to be afraid of. So sometimes I sound like a broken record from the therapist chair. You know, like, you know, I say it doesn't matter. I say we worry about things until we die. But do you want more than that for your life? That's for you to decide. So it's really standing up for what you're really going for in your own life.

What are some of the, you know, traditional things that you've seen people consistently procrastinate on?

Wow, let's say, I would say doubt, not doubting themselves would be the thing that we hang on to. Really old messaging about ourselves. So maybe it's that you thought you were irresponsible or you thought you were clumsy, or you thought you were not good with money, or you thought that men will always be more powerful than you. You know, we, we have these beliefs about ourselves, but we also have beliefs about how the world works that are oftentimes all limiting. So they're not pushing you into a bigger, better version of yourself. They're actually saying, well, stay in your lane. Keep that lane really tight and small. Don't experiment because that will cost you time, energy, money and your reputation. Women get that a lot for all sorts of things. Speaking up, speaking out, having an opinion, working, being powerful, having a loud voice, a loud, prominent voice and opinion and stance. All of that is different given culture, family, neighborhood, age. And I think it's fun for me working with people over years and years to see women in particular grow into themselves. And I have to remind them, oh, by the way, at this stage, you're working with this and this with your parents, or this and this with your environment, or this and this with your body. Oftentimes, with aging for women, it's really kind of being okay with the changes or the lack of changes that you might see. So one thing that I'm thinking about right now, it's like, we have to be radically tolerant of what we're really good at and what we are not. But that is definitely something that I've had to do for myself. And then I try to share with my clients. Because if you're aiming for just perfection, who's going to be able to help you? Because I can't help you with that, Because I myself am not perfect. And I see that as more of an additional struggle than something that will help you get what you really want and desire for yourself.

Hmm, that's in. Yeah, that's interesting. So what was your catalyst moment in your journey that you realized, oh, this is this. This is not it. It's time to pivot? Was it a moment? Was it a compounding effect?

There are multiple ones. I think when the problem was as severe as it was for me, the chronic procrastination, the first one was, I would say, in graduate school when I worked myself to real illness, where I was. I had walking pneumonia. So I was basically coughing really heavily and badly. I was dragging myself to different work sites. And when you're in graduate school, you're driving different places, and it was winter, and it was horrible. And it took a therapist and a supervisor on the same day telling me, christine, you're really sick? And that was the beginning of a big change, because not only did it lead to years of sickness because I was susceptible to bronchitis as a result of that injury, but I also had to figure out how to put the focus on myself instead of on other people. I was so busy working and overworking and procrastinating at the same time and serving clients, that I was literally not sleeping, literally not tending to my body that was sending me these messages and making myself very, very sick. And fortunately, that whole phase of my health history is done, thankfully. And that was a big turning point. Another turning point was accidental, where I was working at a college counseling service, and one of the deans at the university asked for a Procrastination workshop. And I just raised my hand because procrastinators do that. We volunteer for things we have no business volunteering for because we don't know how to regulate our time that well. So I had really no business doing this. But I did have an interest. And once I realized in researching for this webinar or workshop that I was the person most in need of help, that also opened up the path very dramatically. I realized this is actually quite logical, it's quite teachable, and it's really effective. And from that point on, everything was a little bit easier. I didn't fully recover at that point, but that was when the path opened up for me. And one last thing was that I had my second child. And that was when they all do that. Yeah, those second children. And I said to myself, if I don't fix this again, air quotes, the whole family's going down with me. Because there was stuff everywhere, and I just wasn't. I knew something was needed for the sake of everyone. And it wasn't panic, fortunately, but it was like a really deep realization that somewhere, somehow, I could get help for myself.

There's something that you said that I'd love for you to dig a little bit into, if you wouldn't mind. You talked about regulating time and that procrastinators have a hard time regulating time. I would love for you to just unpack that a little bit more. Can you share what's. Because I just have an interesting relationship with time myself. Like, I think that we all of us have very interesting relationship to time. So I'm curious, when you use that term, unregulated time, can you unpack that a little bit more?

Okay. Before I forget, though, can you tell me your relationship with time? And I'll answer, yeah, sure.

For sure. For sure. So when I say I have an interesting relationship with time, I just mean that I think that we. We collectively kind of use it as a bind or this linear concept, and we have, and it's just not linear. And what I mean by that is, you know, we all have different circumstances as parents, single parents, married parents, working jobs that we all, in theory, have this allotted, arbitrary sense of 24 hours, but it's not accessible to everyone in the same way. We're not all starting at point from point A in terms of our circumstances and our responsibilities. I also think that it's not linear in the sense that it can be long and short at the same time, depending on how you experience it. Right. And so just that alone bends the thought of what we think about when we're thinking about time. And yet we are always just in a relationship and almost in this every moment, subconsciously when we're talking about like the background play, we have this relationship to time and we're always thinking about it without talking about it or thinking about it. Just in terms of, you know, I've got X amount of time to do X, Y and Z and to do, to experience this. I just feel like we're always constantly on this unspoken call clock.

Yeah, that is a beautiful description of your awareness of how time is bendable and we all bend time and we all experience time in very different, unique, personalized ways. And that yes, our subconscious is aware of time ticking all the time. But I do want to add, and I saw an article the other day about how Steve Jobs and maybe Einstein, I think, operated from a time free perspective. And I was not able to get into the article, unfortunately. But I do believe that we also experience timelessness where sometimes we're so in the moment we're in such pleasure or we're in such focus that time doesn't matter. So it's not that time isn't ticking, but that we're not operating under the pressure of time passing. And I think that's a beautiful way of experiencing and knowing time as well. Back to your question about how do you regulate time? For me, it's valuing time first and foremost. And the thing with procrastination is that when we're inclined to procrastinate, we're saying, I'm going to give up the current moment and some future moments of time so that I can get some emotional space. And it's fine to want emotional space and to need that, but oftentimes the cost of the time that we're giving up is actually too much. And we're not calculating how important that time is to us. And the fact that we have no guarantee that that amount of time that we're giving up is not going to expand for months, even years. I feel like in my life I've lost so many good days of my life to overthinking, to not sleeping, to abusing myself in certain ways, to hemming and hawing, to missing deadlines. I've done it all and it was all very costly. And now I feel I don't micromanage my time. But I do value it. I do know that if I'm going to choose to procrastinate, it better be for some really good reason, because it's going to hold me up for some other things. And it's going to make me feel this tension and it's going to make me a little bit nuts at this point, because I want to have this identity of the non procrastinator most of the time. So when you value your time as being more important than money, being more important than material items or success, or it's like time is your life and your life is your time. And when you see that and live like that, you get more. You get more of that potential to expand both time and your life. And I think that's very important. So thank you for asking that question.

Yeah. And I also think, you know, I'd love for you to share a little bit, I mean, as much as you can, because I think that it can be hard when we're talking about some of these what will feel like or seem like intangible experiences when you are walking around in the I'm fine coma. Most people are walking around not realizing how good it could be in terms of maximizing their potential in this limitless experience. Right. I remember when that movie came out, that idea, that limitless movie came out and I never watched it, but I watched the trailer and I remember thinking like, we could live like that all the time. We don't need a pill. We could live like that all the time.

There's a movie out now called Everything Everywhere all at Once. I don't know if you saw it, but it kind of depicts in a wildly chaotic way how we are living multiple scenarios, multiple selves, multiple time zones at each moment. And I think that's fascinating in itself. And I think the idea was that the woman, the main character at the beginning, was living in a sort of self coma of taxes and audits and the day to day grind and a loveless marriage and things like that. And that there are ways to expand and to improve what your life vision is. And I hope that anyone listening to this podcast, anyone following Beverly knows from even just Beverly's example, that there's so much potential waiting for you. There's so much that you can tap into, there's so much that you can't even see yet that is there for you. So no need to worry about the what ifs because there's more than you could ever access and fulfill. That's my view of potential, that it is limitless because we don't have enough time in our lives to be able to access all the things that we could do very well and enjoy and bring into our lives. But that is not for me. Not something to make us sad and cry. It's something to say, okay, let's go, let's experiment. Let's really fling what we have to say into the world and see what comes back. See what grows, see what sticks, see what the ripple effect is. Let's get rid of this fear stuff, this fearful living, because that is not good for our cells. C E L L S It's not good for ourselves. It's not good for the generation coming up after us to see worry being the way we feed ourselves because it is food that we're taking in and to just say, really potential and energy and thriving and living fully is really the best energy that we can surround ourselves with and feed ourselves.

So this can be really powerful and insightful for someone who potentially is just in the. And I can relate to this because it is my nature to worry. I'm someone who likes to. I laugh because it's not. It's what I say. But the truth is it's just empty worrying, which is that I want to mitigate risk and I want to look at it things from all angles, but it's just expended energy. And so when you're in that, it can be hard to kind of get out of that bug. Right. And it's easy to explain it away, like, well, I need to be prepared for worst case scenario. Right. So I'm curious, what would you say to someone who might be in that fog right now? What are some of the first steps to getting out of your own way?

So thank you for sharing that, because I did not know that about you. Beverly and I are just getting to know each other of the past couple of months. And I would say what an excellent question, and that is an example, live for everyone who's listening, of how every aspect of our personality, including worrying a lot, is something that can be used for good. And we want to just use our tools in that way. Right? We don't want to use our tools to kind of. Well, sometimes we use tools to break things down before we build new things. Right. So sometimes the analogies don't work that well. But on the whole, you want to use all of your skills, even the ones that make you feel nervous, towards positive goals, towards what you want. Now, worst case scenario thinking originated from what I understand with the Stoics, and they did that exercise of saying, okay, what's the worst case scenario that we have to deal with? But they did that to prepare themselves for doing something radical and new. So that wasn't A bad thing. I think we've just made thinking about the worst case scenario the only thing that we do or the thing that takes up the most time and energy. And then we have little left over for the building part. So it's up to us as individuals to know what are our worry spots? How do we spend? Where do we waste most of our time? Sometimes it's not worry, sometimes it's being really detailed. You know, they're certainly, I'm sure, craftspeople who do that. And that's part of the art and the beauty of the end product. But you have to decide for yourself how much of this do I really need to have a beautiful end product? And that's up for us to decide. That's where coaching comes in sometimes. That's where colleagues are really good. That's where comparison can be really healthy. Because you're like, wow, they've put out 10 new products and I'm still designing my first one. Where's my income coming in? Do I really want this one to be the one that I put to market? So to keep that open, curiosity about your own process will help. And I'm a big fan of lightening up on the worry though, in general, because I think there's so much pleasure to be had. That said, I tend to be genetically on the optimistic side. I tend not to be a worrier. I think my procrastination caused me to worry so much about so many things, so many fantastical things. But then I've uncovered the fact that I actually am very into partying and having fun and just winging it and being spontaneous. But that part wasn't. Didn't have much time. When I was procrastinating, I was always behind, I was always chasing something that I didn't do the day before. So that was where my life was caught up. So if that sounds familiar to you, maybe drop the worry down a notch and decide what can I put out, what can I release, what can I get help with? Those are the avenues, at least three that you have available to you.

That's so good. And I'm also curious because for your opinion and your insight on the, you know, on overwhelm and procrastination. Because I think sometimes, especially as business owners, we tend to either a over commit and we decide that we can do more or say that we can do more than we actually can do and that there is this law of diminishing returns right in terms of our output. And at the same time, so it can sometimes feel like we're procrastinating, even though we are not necessarily procrastinating. But maybe we're just misusing our time in terms of how we prioritize the tasks that we're doing and how much time we give to said task, which is essentially could be considered a form of procrastination. Oh, I have to do this. I can't get to that. Right. So I'm curious how you navigate the differences and how you help your clients see the differences.

Okay. So my belief is that when you really dig at what is causing you to procrastinate, the more you do that, the more you get to know yourself in that deeper way, the better your time sense will be. So I do think that as you heal and recover and decide actually how I treat my time is how my life is going to go. You're going to be much less inclined to do things like over commit and we will make mistakes because mistakes happen. But the recovery time will be faster because you won't be tearing yourself apart, you won't be in tears, you won't be apologizing left and right to people who didn't even know you were working on the thing. Right. All that drama tends to get healed because you're just saying, oh, it's, it's just a task. It's not my self worth. Oh, it's just a task. I can let them know I'm running behind. So all of that excess filler stuff, that is the anxiety provoking stuff really does get moved out of the picture. And I think this may sound like gobbledygook to your audience if they are procrastinating. Because when you're procrastinating, it is a ball of stress. And you don't see that just over the fence is, wow, people who just want the thing from me, they don't need it to be perfect. They don't need it to be the most unique thing they've ever read. They just want it to be on time or they just want to hear when it's going to be delivered. So to keep things very simple is actually another strategy of saying, I can heal. I can let myself experiment with doing things more actively, with communicating more openly and honestly with people, with saying, I need help before the things that catastrophe.

Would you say, that's good and I'm curious, would you say that there's a population of people that are procrastinators but don't know it?

I think we know these things inside. So I would say no. I would say if I had to lean in a direction. I would say no, that we know. I get the other kind of question, which is, you know, how do you know when you're procrastinating? And I think we know when we're waiting to get a little more creativity out of our brains and when we're procrastinating, when we're just sitting still because it doesn't feel comfortable and we're resisting. So it's that tension feeling that we need to be somewhere else and we're creating that tension that I feel is procrastination. And our gut knows it because our gut always knows where we're heading and what we want to do. So yes, there's going to be that tension feeling immediately as soon as you turn the other direction.

This is good. And I'm also curious because I feel like, you know, human beings were complex, you know, how do you. Because I. I know that there is a difference, at least for me, that there is a difference between a sense of resistance and acknowledging procrastination and acknowledging, you know, resistance and then relying on your habits and your discipline to pull you through. Right. So I related to exercises like I didn't really feel like waking up and working out the stuff morning, but I did it because I'm committed and I'm responsible and that's what I do. Right. And then once I get going, I feel good. But there's a difference between, you know, working out when you have walking pneumonia. Right. So how do you navigate between really identifying what is resistance and procrastination and what is just not in alignment and what needs grace?

I would say we always need grace. We always need grace. If you don't allow yourself grace, that's where you get tripped up. That's where you start yelling at yourself on the mornings where you really don't feel it, when something is coming on illness wise and you didn't even realize, or when you just need to skip the gym on that day. But it doesn't mean you're not committed and it doesn't mean you don't have great habits. So I think these terms get these moral judgy connotations. And then we're sunk even deeper into saying, well, I must not have it in me to be this great exerciser. I must not be a committed person. When you said you're committed, yes, you are committed, but you also have the habit. And for me, I think if you nail the habit, you've got that tool forever, you know. And yes, you're going to have to take a Break from the gym when you're feeling really sick. But you always have that habit to rely on. You can always click back into that.

It's.

I think one of the issues is that people don't understand the amount of control they have in building good habits. And they're too tied to the old habits. So the old habit is, oh, wow, I get to think of myself as not being so good at this or lazy or not responsible or not committed. And that set of identities is so familiar and makes sense to them. Talk about alignment. But that's like a misalignment really, because they are fully capable of being all those good things that they just haven't gotten to yet because the habit hasn't. They haven't fully released the old habit to really embrace the new habit. Habit stuff is complicated. We see it as being easy, but it's super, I think, intricate and emotionally based. And so you need to. If you're interested in developing better habits, choose one. Get really focused. Make sure it's not some tumultuous time in your life. Make sure you're healthy. Decide what you're committed to include in that statement, what you're committed to leaving behind fully. So when that thing comes screaming back, wanting to get into the space with you, you say, no, I'm not that person anymore. And that seventh thing, I'm counting seven now, is that you develop the new identity of the person who has this new habit. All of that needs to be in place for things to really create, cruise into the new habit. And that's a lot. So we need to really believe in ourselves, have the behaviors, track them, have the identity, and block out the old stuff.

Well, you said two important things that I think is often missed when we're talking about creating habits is everyone wants to focus on how to create new, better habits without talking about the releasing of the old habits. Because the truth is that everybody is committed to something. It's just getting crystal clear on what you are currently committed to. Right?

Yeah.

And it's not. And I also love that you said that this is morality neutral. This is not good or bad. This is just what is right. And us getting present to that is going to be the first thing that you can change. Right. And this is also true, Coach, for your clients. So if your clients aren't eating and they're not following the plan or they're not doing the workouts or showing up for themselves, this is why. This is because they have brain neural pathways that are signaling them to just try and keep them Safe. It's brain based. It's just our brain trying to protect us.

Yes, yes. And that doesn't mean that we can't talk about the moral tinges here too, because that can be a real relief to people to say, like, oh, it's not about my worth as a human being or how smart I am or how I tell time. It's really like, did I do the habit or not? And let's talk about that. It's okay.

Yeah. Yes. It's so true. So I've been in the space for a while, so I've been hearing a lot, you know, I hear a lot and I think we all hear it. It's one of those things that we double tap on Instagram and we're like, oh, that's so cool. Yeah, change my identity. But what does that even mean? You know, And I used to say all the time people would say, make this. And me too, I've said it too. So listen, I'm not a mute. Is this, you know, make decisions as if you were that are already that person. I would do that if I knew how to do that.

Yeah, yeah, you know.

So how do you access that type of thinking and help your clients access that type of thinking?

I'm still working on it too. I. But I also believe that we all have. This is again, the benefit of being a therapist for so long is seeing how creative everyone is. Just like, we've got crazy good imaginations that we can really envision everything that we see around us. Right. That, that picture behind me saw once. And I said, well, maybe like one day it'll be with me. And lo and behold, it's with me now. Same with everything else in my house, you know, including the dog behind me. And you know, you could say that's wacky thinking. Like you just pick and choose, but that's kind of what is actually happening on a day to day basis in our lives. We pick how we spend our time. We pick the thoughts, some of the thoughts that we believe in. We pick the flowers that were thrown into the garden so that we see them next year. So pick for yourself and know that the bigger. I'm a big believer in thinking even bigger than what you want because you're going to shoot. That energy of shooting for what you want is what gets you there. It's not necessarily the specificity of, oh, I want it pink and decorated in this way and it has to be delivered on the 18th. No, it's kind of like, you know, this direction is what I want And I want it big and I want it really good.

Mm.

But how do you, how do you change into the identity? It's really like that energy. It's energy more than I think thought. It's kind of. Can you allow yourself to be free of the energy that is holding you back? Can you see that this stuff is possible for you?

Yeah. That's good. You know, I'll share too, that one of the things that I heard for myself that really helped me to access it eventually. And it's ongoing, no one ever arrives. True masters became masters when they discovered they know nothing. Right. So for me, what helped me is the recognizing that it's not outside myself, that I'm not chasing anything, and that I'm not going to just one day arrive. Right. It's like when you were talking about procrastination. I never really thought of myself necessarily as a. Or identified as a procrastinator. But I am someone who lives in the if then continuum. As soon as I do this, then I'll do X. As soon as I get this, then I'll get that. And it was this constant. It's this constant state of never ending stress. And then all of a sudden and always chasing. And then it was like, oh my gosh, I did lose those last 10 pounds. I did make 20k a month. And I'm still, still. Nothing changes. Wherever you are, there, you know, wherever you go, there you are. So that was like, that I needed to get. I needed to stop chasing and recognize it's already there. And that kind of was the mind bend for me, which is great.

I'm so glad you got those experiences too. And we, again, it's through experience that we can, you know, learn about ourselves so potently. And for me, I'll share my story that's similar is that I realized that you don't have to be stressed all the time to live. So I live now with basically a permanent calm in my heart and chest, or that. That inner space, whatever you call it, and the difference of my life, being able to rest and return to this state of calm whenever I want to, whenever it's necessary or convenient or useful or every bedtime. It's just so beautiful. And I had to learn that through going through tremendous stress and cycles of if then. I'm sure I wasn't if then as well, but we were just motivated in different ways with different things and different stressors. But now I've healed that part where I realized, wow, actually the way I produce really good material for the outside world is to bring myself to a state of calm. It's not generating this incredible stress, which was what I thought was needed before. I think we're taught that in school. And now I know. Wow. There's millions of different ways of creation. It doesn't have to be an either or even. That's another thing that. Yeah.

So good. This work is so good. I love it. So I want to be. I really want to be mindful of your time. So I, for those of you who want to, you know, work more with you, go and go deeper on this subject. Can you share a little bit about what you're working on now and where I can on that?

Okay, sure. Again, I'm procrastination coach, so you can find me all over the web and my website@procrastinationcoach.com I love Instagram. I'm newly liking TikTok with Beverly.

So following her, following her lead and.

Just being ourselves over there. And I also have an upcoming pre workshop. It's happening June 20th is the start date. And to get access to that, you can go to procrastinationcoach.com bootcamp. It's called the Power Productivity Bootcamp. I'm going to just be teaching about mindset, but also small strategies that you can use to really ramp up your output.

Oh, I love that. Okay. And we'll make sure that we link all of this in the show notes.

Terrific. Thank you.

Christine was amazing. Thank you so much for hanging out with me today and pouring into us.

Thank you, Beverly, you're amazing. Thanks for being such a great host.

You are amazing.

Okay, bye, everyone.

Thank you for listening to the PT Profit podcast. If you like this episode, chances are your friends will too. So it would be a huge service to us if you would please leave us a review and share with your friends on your social media channels. When you leave us a review, please be sure to take a screenshot of it and email that screenshot to my team@info simpsonfitness.com and we'll send you a very special Instagram podcast that will show you how to create compelling content so that your ideal clients come to you. And you go from wanting clients to a wait list of clients ready for your services. Thank you so much for listening and we'll see you on the next episode.

You're listening to the PTA Profit podcast, episode number 156. Today I'm sitting down with Dr. Christine Lee and we're talking about the truth about Procrastination. Are you ready? Let's get started.

Hi, I'm Beverly Simpson, former fitness manager turned online personal training business owner. And this company podcast is where smart fitness professionals, including trainers and clinicians, discover how to increase client performance and movement, package and position their products and services and get out of their own way so that they can increase their revenue to live a life that they love without sleazy sales. Welcome to the PT Profit podcast.

What's up, coach? Thank you so much for pushing play on another episode of the PT Profit podcast. I'm your host, Beverly Simpson. And if this is your first time hanging out with me today, welcome. Super pumped that you're here. I'm really excited to bring to you a very special guest, Dr. Christine Lee. She her and I are in the same mastermind group coaching program together and she is an incredible genius and former and clinical psychologist working in a private practice in New she was working in a private practice in New York City in Westchester, New York. She's conducted procrastination workshops at Columbia University, New York Presbyterian Medical School, the New York City Guitar school, the YMCA and all around the New York City community. And inside of this episode, she is going to be sharing with us over 20 years of experience and she talks a lot about her, her personal journey, how she got to where she is now, truth about procrastination, what it is and how to move through it. So without further ado, let's go ahead and roll that interview. What's up, Christine? I'm super excited to have you on the show today. How are you doing?

Hi, Beverly. I am doing really well. How are you?

I'm doing so good. I'm super excited to get this episode up and recorded. I know that we've been talking about this for a while, so I'm really excited that finally we finally got to get it together. So I'd love for you to share with us a little bit about who you are, who you serve and how you got there.

Okay, great. Thank you for having me on the show. Hi, everyone, who's listening? I love Beverly. I love her work. I love her enthusiasm. My name is Dr. Christine Lee. I'm a clinical psychologist. Beverly and I are both in New York. Yay, New York. And I've been a psychologist for more than 20 years. And about 10 years ago, I decided to take this show online and call myself procrastination coach because I myself had recently figured out that procrastination wasn't something that I needed to suffer from or with anymore. And it was a big shift in my own life. And I knew instinctively that there was more work for me to do with a broader audience, a global audience, hopefully a global audience. That decision and that knowledge that these are easy skills that can transform people's lives, really helped me to have so much fun over the past decade. Working with one on one clients live, but also in groups and memberships and trainings and lectures and podcasts with people like you, just helping people to really uncover what is that thing that really keeps holding me back. And like I just mentioned, I'm a lifelong procrastinator. So I've been there, I empathize. I can understand how funny it is, how bonkers it can feel, how stressful it can be, and how important it is to uncover the reasons why you're doing it and to get rid of it from your life.

So this is so exciting and powerful and I can't wait to dive in deep. So for our purposes, would you mind clarifying and defining specifically what you mean when you use the word procrastination? Like, what is, what is the truth about procrastinating?

The truth about procrastination is it's super complicated actually, because when you think about it, why would we do this? Why would we procrastinate when we know what we want, what we we know, oftentimes the steps that will be needed to get there. And yet we stand still or even hold ourselves back. And so it's this thing that doesn't make sense to people. People get really embarrassed about the fact that they're doing something that doesn't make any sense or is shameful. And, and then for those of you who aren't seeing us on video, the shameful is in quotes because you will see that I'm all about dumping the shame and getting rid of that. And so for me, the definition of procrastination is when you know you could be doing something and you purposefully decide that you're going to delay. So it's a very simple definition. And of course this can apply to brushing your teeth, paying taxes, being an authority in your own online business, going for what you want, saying you love someone when you feel it, and it's just a tug of war within ourselves. And I think when you decide that you're actually braver than any fear that could come into your heart, everything opens up. It's like a brand new life that you can be living. And I think I've been riding that wave for the past 10 years. I feel like nothing can go wrong. I've got so much energy, even when I don't Feel like I have physical energy. I have this life energy that I know can't be extinguished because I figured it out. I know that there's always a way, there's always a solution. I could always take a break, and I could always find a way if I want something for myself. And that's very freeing.

What are some of the ways that you, you know, you see in your patients or saw in yourself or see in your clients, the. The things that would potentially be considered procrastinating, essentially. However, people will often dismiss it or say, oh, that's not procrastinating. It's, you know, not meant for me. Like, what are some of the things that. Behaviors that people will get into when they're procrastinating and don't realize it?

Well, one thing that you just alluded to was not believing that the things that are interesting to you are meant for you, because why would you be interested in them if they weren't meant to be in your life plan or life path? And that's one thing. So if you're curious about something, if you're just fascinated by what is what, why is Beverly, like, looking so good on TikTok, you know, why am I holding myself back? If you're curious about that and Beverly is killing it on TikTok, you want to think for yourself what is being stirred up inside of me. Those things are real. They're not there accidentally. Life is too short for your body and mind to be giving you junk messaging from inside. So your feelings, those nudges, feelings of jealousy, envy, those are all messages that your body is sending to you about what you actually desire, but not only that, what you're actually capable of. I really do believe that. And another way that I see people maybe delaying without really realizing or acknowledging it is saying, what if, what if this, what if that, and exploring all the options. I'm someone who personally likes to know all the options, likes to overthink, likes to ask everybody what their opinion is. But in my heart, I might actually know. I know what I want. I know what I think is the right way to get it. So I try to steer clear of the what ifs these days, because if there's one thing that you learned by being a therapist is that anxiety doesn't get you anywhere. 20 years of listening to this, I know that people worry, and then the thing that they worry about doesn't come to pass, or it doesn't come to pass in the way that they are thinking. So I say, save the time up front, get Rid of the what if, what if this, what if that, what if this, that or the other, and just make an attempt. Throw that fishing rod out into the lake. I don't know why I'm thinking about fishing right now, but do the action. And I was thinking this morning, there are three components to every successful behavior. That's the thought, that's the feeling, and that's the action. And procrastination can happen when you've got one or all three of those things tied up. You're overthinking. If you're overthinking, it generally means you're not taking action. So that leads to procrastination. If you're feeling scared about something but you have the plan all thought out and ready to go, your feelings are going to hold you back because you're going to go slowly, you're going to miss the opportunity, you're going to let somebody else take that job instead of you. And we've all done this. So I'm not telling you anything that you don't really know, but I'm saying it more concretely. So next time you can say, okay, what are my thoughts about this? What am I feeling about this? How can I convert my feeling so that it's in the direction of what I want instead of against it? And then taking the action and feeling good about that action, being committed about it, no matter how it turns out, that you're going to go full force for what you want.

Good. That's good. Nice and simple. I love that three step process. I'd love for you to expand a little bit more on. Can you share a little bit more about your specific process and how you carry someone through the journey of acknowledging.

It.

And then actually making the behavioral change? Like, what is some. What does that process look like for you?

It's different for every person. So that's one thing. But I would say something that is absolutely important is helping the person to feel safe in their own thoughts, actions and feelings. And so much of therapy is the feeling side is saying, like, let's go through all of the possible what ifs, let me have them and let's have you do this week after week until you realize you're still wanting the same goal. You're still interested in producing that paper or getting that new job or getting that promotion, or getting your child to pick up the socks, whatever it is, and realizing that you actually have clarity inside. So it's not my view into what the person wants for themselves. It's having them realize that they really already know and that all this hesitation is really just delaying what they want. And then when you're working with someone after years and years and years, you have a whole record of their successes. So they might come up with a brand new worry or a brand new task that they're feeling they're having a hard time with. And then you remind them, oh, well, it's interesting to me from my vantage point, because you've succeeded at every other thing you've attempted and then people smile, people sigh some relief, but we forget because everything seems like another huge mountain to climb. And I think when you just get rid of that negativity inside and that self doubt that tends to crop up immediately, then things don't feel like mountains anymore. They just feel like to do list items. And then you start not being afraid of to do list items. So don't be afraid of opening your email, don't be afraid of introducing yourself to someone new. Don't be afraid. That's the message really. That's how I work with people. Nothing to be afraid of. So sometimes I sound like a broken record from the therapist's chair, you know, like, you know, I say it doesn't matter. I say we worry about things until we die. But do you want more than that for your life? That's for you to decide. So it's really standing up for what you're really going for in your own life.

What are some of the, you know, traditional things that you've seen people consistently procrastinate on?

Wow. Let's say, I would say doubt, not doubting themselves would be the thing that we hang on to really old messaging about ourselves. So maybe it's that you thought you were irresponsible, or you thought you were clumsy, or you thought you were not good with money, or you thought that men will always be more powerful than you. You know, we, we have these beliefs about ourselves, but we also have beliefs about how the world works that are oftentimes all limiting. So they're not pushing you into a bigger, better version of yourself. They're actually saying, well, stay in your lane. Keep that lane really tight and small. Don't experiment because that will cost you time, energy, money, and your reputation. Women get that a lot for all sorts of things. Speaking up, speaking out, having an opinion, working, being powerful, having a loud voice, a loud, prominent voice and opinion and stance. All of that is different given culture, family, neighborhood, age. And I think it's fun for me working with people over years and years to see women in particular grow into themselves. And I have to remind them, oh, by the way, at this stage, you're working with this and this with your parents, or this and this with your environment, or this and this with your body. Oftentimes, with aging for women, it's really kind of being okay with the changes or the lack of changes that you might see. So one thing that I'm thinking about right now, it's like, we have to be radically tolerant of what we're really good at and what we are not. But that is definitely something that I've had to do for myself. And then I try to share with my clients, because if you're aiming for just perfection, who's going to be able to help you? Because I can't help you with that, Because I myself am not perfect. And I see that as more of an additional struggle than something that will help you get what you really want and desire for yourself.

Hmm, that's in. Yeah, that's interesting. So what was your catalyst moment in your journey that you realized, oh, this is this. This is not it. It's time to pivot? Was it a moment? Was it a compounding effect?

There are multiple ones. I think when the problem was as severe as it was for me, the chronic procrastination. The first one was, I would say, in graduate school when I worked myself to real illness, where I was. I had walking pneumonia. So I was basically coughing really heavily and badly. I was dragging myself to different work sites. And when you're in graduate school, you're driving different places, and it was winter, and it was horrible. And it took a therapist and a supervisor on the same day telling me, christine, you're really sick. And that was the beginning of a big change, because not only did it lead to years of sickness, because I was susceptible to bronchitis as the result of that injury, but I also had to figure out how to put the focus on myself instead of on other people. I was so busy working and overworking and procrastinating at the same time and serving clients that I was literally not sleeping, literally not tending to my body that was sending me these messages and making myself very, very sick. And fortunately, that whole phase of my health history is done, thankfully. And that was a big turning point. Another turning point was accidental, where I was working at a college counseling service, and one of the deans at the university asked for a procrastination workshop. And I just raised my hand, because procrastinators do that. We volunteer for things we have no business volunteering for because we don't know how to regulate our time that well. So I had really no business doing this. But I did have an interest. And once I realized in researching for this webinar or a workshop that I was the person most in need of help, that also opened up the path very dramatically. I realized this is actually quite logical, it's quite teachable, and it's really effective. And from that point on, everything was a little bit easier. I didn't fully recover at that point, but that was when the path opened up for me. And one last thing was that I had my second child. And that was when they all do that. Yeah, those second children. And I said to myself, if I don't fix this again, air quotes, the whole family's going down with me. Because there was stuff everywhere, and I just wasn't. I knew something was needed for the sake of everyone. And it wasn't panic, fortunately, but it was like a really deep realization that somewhere, somehow, I could get help for myself.

There's something that you said that I'd love for you to dig a little bit into, if you wouldn't mind. You talked about regulating time and that procrastinators have a hard time regulating time. I would love for you to just unpack that a little bit more. Can you share what's. Because I just have an interesting relationship to time myself. Like, I think that we all of us have very interesting relationship to time. So I'm curious, when you use that term, unregulated time, can you unpack that.

A little bit more? Okay. Before I forget, though, can you tell me your relationship with time? And I'll answer, yeah, sure, for sure, for sure.

So when I say I have an interesting relationship with time, I just mean that I think that we. We collectively kind of use it as a bind or this linear concept, and we have, and it's just not linear. And what I mean by that is, you know, we all have different circumstances as parents, single parents, married parents, working jobs, that we all, in theory, have this allotted arbitrary sense of 24 hours, but it's not accessible to everyone. In the same way, we're not all starting at point from point A in terms of our circumstances and our responsibilities. I also think that it's not linear in the sense that. That it can be long and short at the same time, depending on how you experience it. Right. And so just that alone bends the thought of what we think about when we're thinking about time. And yet we are always just in a relationship and almost in this every moment, subconsciously when we're talking about like the background play, we have this relationship to time and we're always thinking about it without talking about it or thinking about it just in terms of, you know, I've got X amount of time to do X, Y and Z and to do, to experience this. I just feel like we're always constantly on this unspoken clock.

Yeah, that is a beautiful description of your awareness of how time is bendable and we all bend time and we all experience time in very different, unique, personalized ways. And that yes, our subconscious is aware of time ticking all the time. But I do want to add, and I saw an article the other day about how Steve Jobs and maybe Einstein, I think, operated from a time free perspective. And I was not able to get into the article, unfortunately. But I do believe that we also experience timelessness where sometimes we're so in the moment, we're in such pleasure or we're in such focus that time doesn't matter. So it's not that time isn't ticking, but that we're not operating under the pressure of time passing. And I think that's a beautiful way of experiencing and knowing time as well. Back to your question about how do you regulate time? For me, it's valuing time first and foremost. And the thing with procrastination is that when we're inclined to procrastinate, we're saying, I'm going to give up the current moment and some future moments of time so that I can get some emotional space. And it's fine to want emotional space and to need that. But oftentimes the cost of the time that we're giving up is actually too much. And we're not calculating how important that time is to us. And the fact that we have no guarantee that that amount of time that we're giving up is not going to expand for months, even years. I feel like in my life I've lost so many good days of my life to overthinking, to not sleeping, to abusing myself in certain ways, to hemming and hawing, to missing deadlines. I've done it all and it was all very costly. And now I feel I don't micromanage my time, but I do value it. I do know that if I'm going to choose to procrastinate, it better be for some really good reason because it's going to hold me up for some other things and it's going to make me feel this tension and it's going to make me a little bit nuts at this point, because I want to have this identity of the non procrastinator most of the time. So when you value your time as being more important than money, being more important than material items or success or it's like time is your life and your life is your time. And when you see that and live like that, you get more. You get more of that potential to expand both time and your life. And I think that's very important. So thank you for asking that question.

Yeah. And I also think, you know, I'd love for you to share a little bit, I mean, as much as you can. Because I think that it can be hard when we're talking about some of these what will feel like or seem like intangible experiences when you are walking around in the I'm fine coma. Most people are walking around not realizing how good it could be in terms of maximizing their potential in this limitless experience. Right. I remember when that movie came out, that idea, that limitless movie came out. And I remember I never watched it, but I watched the trailer and I remember thinking like, we could live like that all the time. We don't need a pill. We could live like that all the time.

There's a movie out now called Everything Everywhere all at Once. I don't know if you saw it, but it kind of depicts in a wildly chaotic way how we are living multiple scenarios, multiple selves, multiple time zones at each moment. And I think that's fascinating in itself. And I think the idea was that the woman, the main character at the beginning, was living in a sort of self coma of taxes and audits and the day to day grind and a loveless marriage and things like that. And that there are ways to expand and to improve what your life vision is. And I hope that anyone listening to this podcast, anyone following Beverly knows from even just Beverly's example that there's so much potential waiting for you. There's so much that you can tap into, there's so much that you can't even see yet that is there for you. So no need to worry about the what ifs because there's more than you could ever access and fulfill. That's my view of potential, that it is limitless because we don't have enough time in our lives to be able to access all the things that we could do very well and enjoy and bring into our lives. But that is not for me, not something to make us sad and cry. It's something to say, okay, let's go, let's experiment, let's really Fling what we have to say into the world and see what comes back. See what grows, see what sticks, see what the ripple effect is. Let's get rid of this fear stuff, this fearful living, because that is not good for our cells. C E L L S It's not good for ourselves. It's not good for the generation coming up after us to see worry being the way we feed ourselves because it is food that we're taking in and to just say, really potential and energy and thriving and living fully is really the best energy that we can surround ourselves with and feed ourselves.

So this can be really powerful and insightful for someone who potentially is just in the. And I can relate to this because it is my nature to worry. I'm sorry, someone who likes to. I laugh because it's not. It's what I say. But the truth is it's just empty worrying, which is that I want to mitigate risk and I want to look at it things from all angles, but it's just expended energy. And so when you're in that, it can be hard to kind of get out of that bug. Right. And it's easy to explain it away, like, well, I need to be prepared for worst case scenario. Right. So I'm curious, what would you say to someone who might be in that fog right now? What are some of the first steps to getting out of your own way?

So thank you for sharing that, because I did not know that about you. Beverly and I are just getting to know each other of the past couple of months and I would say what an excellent question, and that is an example, live for everyone who's listening, of how every aspect of our personality, including worrying a lot, is something that can be used for good. And we want to just use our tools in that way. Right? We don't want to use our tools to kind of. Well, sometimes we use tools to break things down before we build new things. Right. So sometimes the analogies don't work that well. But on the whole, you want to use all of your skills, even the ones that make you feel nervous, towards positive goals, towards what you want. Now, worst case scenario thinking originated from what I understand with the Stoics, and they did that exercise of saying, okay, what's the worst case scenario that we have to deal with? But they did that to prepare themselves for doing something radical and new. So that wasn't a bad thing. I think we've just made thinking about the worst case scenario the only thing that we do or the thing that takes up the Most time and energy, and then we have little left over for the building part. So it's up to us as individuals to know what are our worry spots? How do we spend? Where do we waste most of our time? Sometimes it's not worry, sometimes it's being really detailed. You know, they're certainly, I'm sure, craftspeople who do that. And that's part of the art and the beauty of the end product. But you have to decide for yourself, how much of this do I really need to have a beautiful end product? And that's up for us to decide. That's where coaching comes in sometimes. That's where colleagues are really good. That's where comparison can be really healthy. Because you're like, wow, they've put out 10 new products and I'm still designing my first one. Where's my income coming in? Do I really want this one to be the one that I put to market? So to keep that open, curiosity about your own process will help. And I'm a big fan of lightening up on the worry though, in general, because I think there's so much pleasure to be had. That said, I tend to be genetically on the optimistic side. I tend not to be a worrier. I think my procrastination caused me to worry so much about so many things, so many fantastical things. But then I've uncovered the fact that I actually am very into partying and having fun and just winging it and being spontaneous. But that part wasn't. Didn't have much time. When I was procrastinating, I was always behind, I was always chasing something that I didn't do the day before. So that was where my life was caught up. So if that sounds familiar to you, maybe drop the worry down a notch and decide, what can I put out, what can I release, what can I get help with? Those are the avenues, at least three that you have available to you.

That's so good. And I'm also curious because. For your opinion and your insight on the, you know, on overwhelm and procrastination. Because I think sometimes, especially as business owners, we tend to either a over commit and we decide that we can do more or say that we can do more than we actually can do and that there is this law of diminishing returns, right in terms of our output and at the same time. So it can sometimes feel like we're procrastinating, even though we are not necessarily procrastinating. But maybe we're just misusing our time in terms of how we, you know, prioritize the tasks that we're doing and how much time we give to said task, which is essentially could be considered a form of procrastination. Oh, I have to do this. I can't get to that. Right. So I'm curious how you navigate the differences and how you help your clients see the differences.

Okay. So my belief is that when you really dig at what is causing you to procrastinate, the more you do that, the more you get to know yourself in that deeper way, the better your time sense will be. So I do think that as you heal and recover and decide actually how I treat my time is how my life is going to go. You're going to be much less inclined to do things like over commit and we will make mistakes because mistakes happen. But the recovery time will be faster because you won't be tearing yourself apart, you won't be in tears, you won't be apologizing left and right to people who didn't even know you were working on the thing. Right. All that drama tends to get healed because you're just saying, oh, it's just a task. It's not my self worth. Oh, it's just a task. I can let them know I'm running behind. So all of that excess filler stuff, that is the anxiety provoking stuff, really does get moved out of the picture. And I think this may sound like gobbledygook to your audience if they are procrastinating. Because when you're procrastinating, it is a ball of stress and you don't see that just over the fence is, wow, people who just want the thing from me, they don't need it to be perfect. They don't need it to be the most unique thing they've ever read. They just want it to be on time or they just want to hear when it's going to be delivered. So to keep things very simple is actually another strategy of saying, I can heal. I can let myself experiment with doing things more actively, with communicating more openly and honestly with people, with saying, I need help before the things that catastrophe.

Would you say, that's good and I'm curious, would you say that there's a population of people that are procrastinators but don't know it?

I think we know these things inside. So I would say no. I would say, if I had to lean in a direction, I would say no, that we know. I get the other kind of question, which is, you know, how do you know when you're procrastinating. And I think we know when we're waiting to get a little more creativity out of our brains and when we're procrastinating, when we're just sitting still because it doesn't feel comfortable and we're resisting. So it's that tension feeling that we need to be somewhere else and we're creating that tension that I feel is procrastination. And our gut knows it because our gut always knows where we're heading and what we want to do. So yes, there's going to be that tension feeling immediately as soon as you turn the other direction.

This is good. And I'm also curious because I feel like, you know, human beings were complex. You know, how do you. Because I know that there is a difference, at least for me, that there is a difference between a sense of resistance and acknowledging procrastination and acknowledging, you know, resistance and then relying on your habits and your discipline to pull you through. Right. So I related to exercises like I didn't really feel like waking up and working out for this morning, but I did it because I'm committed and I'm responsible and that's what I do. Right. And then once I get going, I feel good. But there's a difference between, you know, working out when you have walking pneumonia.

Right.

So how do you navigate between really identifying what is resistance and procrastination and what is just not in alignment and what needs grace?

I would say we always need grace. We always need grace. If you don't allow yourself grace, that's where you get tripped up. That's where you start yelling at yourself on the mornings where you really don't feel it when something is coming on illness wise and you didn't even realize, or when you just need to skip the gym on that day. But it doesn't mean you're not committed and it doesn't mean you don't have have great habits. So I think these terms get these moral judgy connotations and then we're sunk even deeper into saying, well, I must not have it in me to be this great exerciser. I must not be a committed person. When you said you're committed, yes, you are committed, but you also have the habit. And for me, I think if you nail the habit, you've got that tool forever, you know. And yes, you're going to have to take a break from the gym when you're feeling really sick, but you always have that habit to rely on. You can always click back into that. I think one of the issues is that people don't understand the amount of control they have in building good habits and they're too tied to the old habits. So the old habit is, oh, wow, I get to think of myself as not being so good at this or lazy or not responsible or not committed. And that set of identities is so familiar and makes sense to them. Talk about alignment. But that's like a misalignment really, because they are fully capable of being all those good things that they just haven't gotten to yet because the habit hasn't. They haven't fully released the old habit to really embrace the new habit. Habit stuff is complicated. We see it as being easy, but it's super, I think, intricate and emotionally based. And so you need to. If you're interested in developing better habits, choose one. Get really focused. Make sure it's not some tumultuous time in your life. Make sure you're healthy. Decide what you're committed to include in that statement, what you're committed to leaving behind fully. So when that thing comes screaming back, wanting to get into the space with you, you say, no, I'm not that person anymore. And that seventh thing, I'm counting seven now, is that you develop the new identity of the person who has this new habit. All of that needs to be in place for things to really cool, cruise into the new habit. And that's a lot. So we need to really believe in ourselves, have the behaviors, track them, have the identity and block out the old stuff.

Well, you said two important things that I think is often missed when we're talking about creating habits is everyone wants to focus on how to create new, better habits without talking about the releasing of the old habits. Because the truth is that everybody is committed to something. It's just getting crystal clear on what you are currently committed to. Right?

Yeah.

And it's not. And I also love that you said that this is morality neutral. This is not good or bad. This is just what is right. And us getting present to that is going to be the first thing that you can change. Right. And this is also true, coach, for your clients. So if your clients aren't eating and they're not following the plan or they're not doing the workouts or showing up for themselves. This is why. This is because they have brain neural pathways that are signaling them to just try and keep them safe. It's brain based. It's just our brain trying to protect us.

Yes, yes. And that doesn't mean that we can't talk about the moral Tinges here too. Because that can be a real relief to people to say, like, oh, it's not about my worth as a human being or how smart I am or how I tell time. It's really like, did I do the habit or not? And let's talk about that. It's okay.

Yeah. Yes. It's so true. So I've been in the space for a while, so I've been hearing a lot. You know, I hear a lot and I think we all hear it. It's one of those things that we double tap on Instagram and we're like, oh, that's so cool. Yeah, change my identity. But what does that even mean? You know, And I used to say all the time people would say, make this. And me too. I've said it too. So listen, I'm not a mia Is this. You know, make decisions as if you were. That are already that person. I would do that if I knew how to do that.

Yeah. Yeah.

You know. So how do you access that type of thinking and help your clients access that type of think?

I'm still working on it too. I. But I also believe that we all have. This is, again, the benefit of being a therapist for so long is seeing how creative everyone is. Just like, we've got crazy good imaginations that we can really envision everything that we see around us. Right. That. That picture behind me saw once and I said, well, maybe like one day it'll be with me. And lo and behold, it's with me now. Same with everything else in my house, you know, including the dog behind me. And, you know, you could say that's wacky thinking. Like, you just pick and choose, but that's kind of what is actually happening on a day to day basis in our lives. We pick how we spend our time. We pick the thoughts, some of the thoughts that we believe in. We pick the flowers that were thrown into the garden so that we see them next year. So pick for yourself and know that the bigger. I'm a big believer in thinking even bigger than what you want, because you're going to shoot. That energy of shooting for what you want is what gets you there. It's not necessarily the specificity of, oh, I want it pink and decorated in this way and it has to be delivered on the 18th. No, it's kind of like, you know, this direction is what I want and I want it big and I want it really good.

Mm.

But how do you. How do you change into the identity? It's really like that energy, it's Energy more than I think thought. It's kind of. Can you allow yourself to be free of the energy that is holding you back? Can you see that this stuff is possible for you?

Yeah, that's good. You know, I'll share too that one of the things that I heard for myself that really helped me to access it eventually and it's ongoing, no one ever arrives. True masters became masters when they discovered they know nothing. Right. So for me, what helped me is the recognizing that it's not outside myself, that I'm not chasing anything, and that I'm not going to just one day arrive. Right. It's like when you were talking about procrastination. I never really thought of myself necessarily as a, or identified as a procrastinator. But I am someone who lives in the if then continuum. As soon as I do this, then I'll do X. As soon as I get this, then I'll get that. And it was this constant. It's this constant state of never ending stress. And then all of a sudden and always chasing. And then it was like, oh my gosh, I did lose those last 10 pounds. I did make 20k a month and I'm so still nothing changes. Wherever you are there, you know, wherever you go, there you are. So that was like that I needed to get. I needed to stop chasing and recognize it's already there. And that kind of was the mind bend for me, which is great.

I'm so glad you got those experiences too. And we again, it's through experience that we can, you know, learn about ourselves so potently. And for me, I'll share my story that's similar is that I realized that you don't have to be stressed all the time to live. So I live now with basically a permanent calm in my heart and chest or that, that inner space, whatever you call it. And the difference of my life being able to rest and return to this state of calm whenever I want to, whenever it's necessary or convenient or useful or every bedtime. It's just so beautiful. And I had to learn that through going through tremendous stress and cycles of if then I'm sure I wasn't if then as well, but we were just motivated in different ways with different things and different stressors. But now I've healed. That part where I realized, wow, actually the way I produce really good material for the outside world is to bring myself to a state of calm. It's not generating this incredible stress, which was what I thought was needed before. I think we're taught that in school. And now I know. Wow. There's millions of different ways of creation. It doesn't have to be an either or even. That's another thing that. Yeah.

So good. This work is so good. I love it. So I want to be. I really want to be mindful of your time. So I, for those of you who want to, you know, work more with you, go and go deeper on this subject. Can you share a little bit about what you're working on now and where I can send that?

Okay, sure. Again, I'm Procrastination coach, so you can find me all over the web and my website@procrastinationcoach.com I love Instagram. I'm newly liking TikTok with Beverly following her lead and just being ourselves over there. And I also have an upcoming pre workshop. It's happening June 20th is the start date. And to get access to that, you can go to procrastinationcoach.com bootcamp. It's called the Power Productivity Bootcamp. I'm going to just be teaching about mindset, but also small strategies that you can use to really ramp up your output.

Ooh, I love that. Okay. And we'll make sure that we link all of this in the show notes.

Terrific. Thank you.

Christine was amazing. Thank you so much for hanging out with me today and pouring into us. Us.

Thank you. Beverly, you're amazing. Thanks for being such a great host.

You are amazing.

Okay, bye everyone.

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