Thriving with Celiac Disease with Michelle LeMaster

You are listening to the PT Proffit podcast, episode number 323. Today we are learning about thriving with celiac disease with nutrition expert Michelle Lemaster. Are you ready? Let's get started.

Hi, I'm Beverly Simpson, former fitness manager turned online personal training business owner. And this podcast is where smart fitness professionals, including trainers and clinicians, discover how to increase clients client performance and movement, package and position their products and services and get out of their own way so that they can increase their revenue to live a life that they love without sleazy sales. Welcome to the PT Profit Podcast.

Welcome back to PT Profit Podcast. I am going to give you your intro for today's episode. My name is Chris, and this episode dives into Beverly's discussion with Michelle, who is just on the brink of completing her doctorate in nutrition. And she has been able to unveil the myths that you have to hate food when you have any kind of nutrition struggles, such as living with celiac disease or any kind of gluten intolerance. So what Michelle unveils in this episode could be both enlightening or educational. Perhaps a much needed perspective shift on the values of learning to cook and understand nutrition at a higher level. I hope that you tune into this one. It's a great episode and without further ado, we will get it started.

What's up, Michelle? Thank you so much for joining me on the show today. How are you?

I'm good. Thank you for having me. How are you?

I'm doing so good and I'm so excited to get into this recording tonight. I was about to say. Well, I did. I said like tonight, but it's already in the morning over there for you down under.

Well, it's afternoon, actually. It's Thursday at 12, so. Yes.

Oh, my gosh, already your day is halfway done and ours is just ending.

It's amazing.

Okay, so I can't wait to dive in today. There's so many things that we're going to talk about, unpack. But first, for those of you who are tuning in and you have not been introduced to the pleasure of your work, can you share with us a little bit about who you are, who you serve and how you got there?

Yeah, absolutely. So, as you said, my name's Michelle. I am actually. I just submitted my PhD thesis, so hopefully I'll be earning that title of doctor soon. Yeah.

Congratulations, Dr. Michelle Nicole. Okay, keep on.

Yeah, so hopefully that'll be happening and wrapping up pretty soon. But aside from that, I work with people who have food restrictions or specifically with celiac disease or struggle with food anxiety to overcome some of the fears they have. And especially when it comes to people with celiac disease feeling really isolated and like they actually can't have some of their favorite foods. I just help people find the joy in eating again and basically eating with ease, without pain or stress, whether it's celiac disease, food restrictions, or anxieties. So that's, that's what I do, aside from the PhD.

Amazing. So I. I do want to unpack the PhD. What did you study?

So my master's and PhD are in meat and food science, mainly with a focus on meat and muscle biology.

Okay, amazing. And of course you're going to use that in your work to help people with food anxiety. So the second part I want to. To go is, can you talk a little bit about what you specifically mean around anxiety around food? Like, what would cause that besides. Besides, you know, yo yo dieting and restrictive dieting, which we often are familiar with, that we're familiar with people who, who, you know, yo yo diet and whatnot. But what other types of things happen that people experience that would cause food anxiety?

Yeah, so the yo yo dieting and restrictive dieting especially cause. I'm not sure if food anxiety would be the word to use for those, but they do cause like, a little apprehension, I guess, when it comes to food. Because we always think specifically with those two examples that you can't have food. As soon as you tell your brain you can't have something, your brain just starts to fixate on those things, and then that typically leads to binge eating, and then that's where you get the yo yo dieting. But when it comes to something like food restrictions specifically, I'll use the example of celiac, because I have celiac disease that starts to kind of basically form this cascading process of constantly fixating on food because we all have to eat several times a day. But when you have food restrictions, and specifically food restrictions, that can lead to being really sick in the case of celiac disease, sick for a long period of time, I'm talking a couple weeks to get over that gluten exposure that, that actually causes a lot of anxiety because you go into a grocery store and unlike normal people, you can't just pick up random products and put it in your grocery cart. You have to read the labels and read very carefully. You can't just go to a restaurant and hang out with your friends. You have to basically wonder the entire time, is the food I'm eating going to make me sick. And if it does, what do I do? So I know a lot of people think that gluten free is kind of a fad. Some people have taken up the gluten free diet to for whatever reason improve their health or whatever they are doing with that. But other people with food restrictions, specifically for allergens or celiac disease, we have to eat gluten free. But that gluten free eating comes with more than just reading a label. It's feeling isolated at parties or left out because people think that you're going to get sick or they're worried about you. A lot of people come from, you know, a good heart and don't want you to get sick, so they often exclude you. And then that kind of, like I said, starts a cascading emotional event, I guess, if you will.

Yeah, I mean you're.

I.

And I am going to ask you, just so you know, I am going to ask you to unpack like what the life of a celiac is and how you even discovered that you got that. Because what's interesting to me and what came up for me as I listened to you talk was that, you know, we often have so much, you know, a lot of focus around people who end up yo yo dieting because of aesthetic reasons or because of society pressure to look and feel and be a certain way. I can't imagine what that, the compounding effect of what that's also like, in addition to all of those pressures on top of like, hey, if this food, if you eat this, you could be in the hospital. Like that's a whole nother level of stress around food. Right. So we know that it's bad. This is a whole nother level. So can you, can you walk us through a little bit about what celiac is specifically? What, how did you find that you had it? And what are some of the experiences that people go through living with celiac?

Sure. So I'll start with the, I guess the more scientific question, what is celiac? And I'll try to keep it less scientific if you will. But celiac disease is an autoimmune disorder. And basically what happens is if you are someone with celiac disease, every time you eat gluten, which is found in wheat, rye, barley, a lot of things really, that actually damages part of our small intestine. So in our small intestine we have these finger like projections called villi and they like normally when you eat food, the nutrients are broken down and because the villi are intact, there's more surface area to actually absorb vital nutrients like calcium, vitamin D, magnesium, iron, all the things our body needs to function normally. When you have celiac disease, those villi are damaged, so you have less surface area to absorb those vital nutrients because your body basically starts this immune attack, immune system attack on the gluten protein. And by doing that, it damages those villi. And like I said, it leads to the villi getting damaged. And people with celiac disease, if it's left untreated, and by that I mean they don't follow a gluten free diet, there is a really high likelihood that they're going to be deficient in calcium, vitamin D, magnesium, vitamin B12 and iron. And if you're deficient in any nutrient, it's going to cause several other health issues. So that's kind of the basic of what celiac disease is. I found out that I had it when I was in high school. So I was super athletic, basically played a sport every season. Whatever sport I could, I would play it. And then all of a sudden I just started feeling really fatigued, had a lot of muscle pain, migraines and just lethargic. Not normal for a high school kid. And I went through all these testings, had to go through the whole spiel every time I went to a new doctor. And then they finally did a blood test and a biopsy and confirmed that I had celiac disease. That was great. I had the answer of what was wrong. But then like I said, that kind of led to the emotional side of things where I, as a high school kid didn't know really what celiac disease was. And importantly, I didn't have anyone to teach me how to navigate through this new lifestyle. And that also led to me feeling like I was going to miss out on, you know, hanging out with friends, going out to restaurants, things like that. And yeah, that led to other health issues. So I basically was afraid to eat anything because I didn't want to get sick. And in doing that, I lost a lot of weight, became really unhealthy. I, as someone who's 5 8, ended up weighing 105 pounds. Not good. Yeah, yeah. So I, I was really unhealthy and I had a wakeup call when my cardiologist told me, look, if you don't change things, you're actually at a really high risk of having a heart attack. Which I was surprised to hear that because I always considered, you know, people who were overweight were at risk of heart attacks, not necessarily people who are underweight. So that was a Bit of a wakeup call. And the other wakeup call I had to kind of figure out how to overcome some of these challenges and learn how to deal with celiac disease so that I could help other people was my dad. And I know to this day he doesn't actually remember this conversation, but we were in a car together, and so I couldn't escape the conversation. I couldn't run away. And he looked at me and said, look, you can either treat this as a burden and let it consume you emotionally and consume you health wise, or you can look at this as a blessing and an opportunity to help other people. Obviously, I chose the helping other people, and that's actually what led me to get my PhD. So there you go.

Yeah, that's amazing. So what was the road to recovery like? So that's an amazing, like, experience in terms of your dad. And it's so funny, they never seem to remember those important conversations. But I'm.

He has no recollection, you know.

So now how did you begin the process and how, you know, let's say you. You know, you. So you're working with clients that have this angst around food that goes, that's deep, right? Whatever level of, you know, deep it is. What's the process? How did you begin to, like, not like, how did you begin to recover from those feelings of angst?

Yeah, well, like I said, I didn't have anyone to guide me along the way. And obviously I had my family, but they don't have celiac disease, so. Well, my immediate family doesn't. I have a couple extended family that do. And I. I was just kind of wandering through aimlessly trying to figure this out. And it. It really started from that conversation with my dad and then going into my master's degree I got involved in at Ohio State. They have this really awesome class called Barbecue Science class. I had the pleasure of teaching this class, but through that class I was able to figure out, okay, I can take some of these recipes that aren't necessarily gluten free and make them gluten free. Came with a lot of trial and error, of course, but just seeing the process and understanding, especially the science behind cooking really was beneficial to me because, like, part of my degree is understanding how proteins break down during the cooking process and how that impacts tenderness, juiciness, and flavor of the food that we eat. Understanding from a scientific level how cooking can influence everything that we eat really helped because to me, it became like a science project. And I'm a bit of a nerd when it comes to science. So I was like, okay, I'll just focus and treat everything as if it's a science project. And I got really creative with the cooking process. But when it comes to coming over the emotional side of things, I. This was another conversation I had with my dad that, again, he has no recollection of. But I looked at him at one point, and I was doing, well, a lot better than I was before. And I just said, you know, there are some days where I just wish I was normal. Like, I could just go to a restaurant and not worry about it. I just. I wish I was normal. And he said, what does that even mean? What is normal? He said, everyone has something they're dealing with. It's just how you can overcome it. He said, normal is just kind of like a myth, you know, it's just what you perceive as normal because you're not that thing. And he said, and if you were something else, you know, you wouldn't be the person you are today. Which, like, it's. I don't know, it just kind of woke me up again, and it was like, okay, I don't have to be like everyone else, and I can navigate through this and be just fine. And when it comes to going to restaurants, as someone with celiac disease, I think the first thing I learned was very quickly not putting emphasis on the food itself to put emphasis on the people that with we go to restaurants or out to lunch with friends or, you know, that company lunch, work event, even holidays with families. And food is often what brings people together, but that's not what keeps people together. It's the community and just that bonding experience. So they might not necessarily cook things the way that is suitable for me to eat, but I know in my own kitchen, I can cook whatever I want any day of the week. And I can cook things that people think aren't necessarily celiac friendly in a way that is celiac friendly. So like I said, if you go out and you don't have control of the food, don't focus on the food. Focus on the people.

That's good. So now I'm. I'm curious, you know, for you and for your clients, how do you navigate whether they have celiac or not? Right. But they've got food anxieties, and they have social things with food. Because there's something that you said that I think is important to remember is that, you know, food is social. And you said family as well. And there's a whole bunch of stuff that's like, not even related to food, but it's the culture nature of experiencing food, right? So that bring up a whole slew of lots of things. So with that said, you know, how do you recommend your people navigate those food components? Like, let's say you were going to a friend's house for dinner. Do you, you know, pack your own food in the off chance that they might not have food for you? Like, do you ever, you know, how. How do you navigate that experience of, like, going to other people's houses or trusting restaurants? Like, have you ever had the experience when they told you it was gluten free and then it really wasn't?

Yes, sadly, I have. So that really did damage my ability to, to trust restaurants too much. But I, I did kind of find a way around that. So when it comes to restaurants, I know from myself and from talking with other people that if you have celiac disease, you can kind of feel like a burden or an inconvenience. Because every time you go to a restaurant, the topic of what can I eat? Is going to come up sooner or later. Like, literally right when you walk into the door, you have to present this whole big thing to, you know, usually a high school student in front of you that may not know what celiac disease is, that, look, I can't eat certain things. How can you help me? So one thing I always do, and I know it kind of seems like a little bit of work, but to me, it takes a lot of the stress and anxiety away from going to restaurants is I'll actually call the restaurant before I go and say, look, this is what's going on. Do you have any experience with this? And if so, what can I eat? Every single time I've done that, they thank me for calling them because they're like, we want to help people and we want to make sure you have a good experience. Here, let me get the chef and he can talk to you. So they actually put the chef on the phone with me. And usually they have, like, great ideas. And they always say, when you come to the restaurant, come up to the counter or, you know, the, the booth where you have to go and get seated and ask for us and we'll come and talk to you and that way we know where you're sitting and what to do. Every single time I've done that, they take care of me and I've never gotten sick. The other thing is, in Australia, it's. It's great. There are some restaurants, and it's usually the Greek restaurants. They're actually celiac like, certified by the Celiac Foundation. So if you find those restaurants, you know you're safe and, yeah, otherwise, just talk to the restaurants. But when it comes to going out to someone else's house, again, I know it's difficult to talk about because you feel like you have to talk about it all the time, but it's better to talk about it to especially friends. Like, they should understand where you're coming from, but it's better to talk about what you need rather than risking getting sick. So anytime I'm going to someone else's house, I always offer, if I can bring a dish, like, I'll bring a dish to share. And then every time we sit down to eat, I get my food first so that there's no chance of cross contamination. And if I don't trust that they're going to make something correctly, I just know that because I'm bringing a dish, there's at least something for me to have.

So what, what are the types of cross contamination. Cross contamination that can happen? So I'm going to ask that question one step back. So I know that gluten is in bread. Like, we hear gluten and we think sugar and bread. Where else does gluten show up that people don't realize is actually gluten in food?

Oh, you'd be surprised. So think anything with bread. So pasta, pizza, obviously, like something like fried chicken has gluten because it's breaded. But even things like sauces can have gluten in them or medication. I have found out the hard way that shampoo and conditioner sometimes even has hydrolyzed wheat protein. So there's gluten in some shampoo and conditioner, so you have to navigate that as well. And even, like toothpaste, I think they've gotten away from. But there have been some toothpaste that have gluten as well. That's why I said anytime you go into a grocery store, you have to read every label of everything you pick up just to make sure that you're not going to get sick. So, yeah, it can hide in different, different places. And you just have to look for the words like gluten, wheat, rye, barley, hydrolyzed wheat, protein. There's a few other hidden terms I guess that they can use. But to be honest, what I always do when I go to the grocery store is I stick with the foods that aren't as processed. So, like meat, vegetables, fruit, you can do so much with those foods and you know that they're loaded with nutrients and Minerals, where a lot of the gluten free, processed foods are actually deficient in minerals. And if you're already having a hard enough time to get the adequate quantities because of your damaged gut, you're better off to go with the natural foods anyway.

So what are the. And. And sweets have gluten in them?

Yeah, some, some chocolates and especially like think a Kit Kat bar, there's a wafer in there, so there's going to be gluten in that. So. But trust me, when I was diagnosed with celiac disease, the first thing I did was figure out what chocolate I could have.

Yeah, it's funny. It's funny. I mean, it's not funny, but I, I believe that. I believe that.

Yeah.

Okay, so what now? What happens if the celiac eats gluten?

A lot of bad things. So like systemically it usually causes an inflammatory response, especially in the gut. So you get really distended gut. Sometimes it's so bad that people actually look pregnant because their gut is just so bloated and inflamed. But other issues from that is it's called brain fog. So it's really hard to concentrate. You can have muscle and nerve issues. The difficulty when it comes to celiac disease is it often presents itself for symptoms differently in not necessarily everyone, but there are a lot of different symptoms that you can get. One classic symptom is a rash on your arm, especially your elbows and shoulder. But if you ingest gluten, it's going to cause that inflammatory response. And that inflammatory response can last several days.

Is it instantly?

It's usually pretty quick and it causes a lot of GI issues. So like the time that I was at a restaurant, we'll get a little personal. I guess when I was at a restaurant and had I asked for a burger with a gluten free bun and they forgot the gluten free part of that order. And I took one bite and I thought, you know, this, this doesn't taste like a gluten free bun because it tasted too good to be honest. Like that's how I knew. And I asked someone else who is sitting next to me if they could take a bite and they said no, that's the same, same thing that I have. Within 20 minutes I was running to the bathroom because it just causes havoc on your GI system. So yeah, it's, it's pretty quick.

Did you get in trouble or did you, did you let them know? Did they get.

Yeah, I let them know politely, of course. But. And like I said, with restaurants if there's someone who doesn't know or doesn't understand, because I didn't know anything about celiac disease until I was diagnosed. So I'm not expecting everyone else walking around to. To have all of this information. But if they don't know, they might not necessarily understand the implications of that mistake. That's why I said, anytime I go to a restaurant, I make it very clear. It might seem annoying, but it's better to be annoying for five minutes than to be sick for a week.

So it's interesting because my nephew has celiac disease. And it. It was. The part that was interesting is that we were. He was struggling so hard with eating. Like, you just could not. He could not eat anything. And he was. He. He was just. He wouldn't. Again, he. I was watching him, like, start to get anxious around food. Like it didn't matter. It's just like, he would look at food and think, I'm going to be in pain in the bathroom as soon as I. Yep. And the doc. And he just would not gain any weight. And the doctors were like, listen, let's test for like. Like, just take him off gluten for a week. And he started to, like, finally feel better. And that's when they started to go down all the testing and figured out that he had celiac. So it's a game changer. But I am. And I am curious because it did. It does lead me to this question of under. Of understanding the difference scientifically between a gluten insensitivity, which is what people will show, and people are curious, like, am I gluten sensitive or insensitive or not? So how do you. Like, what are some. Because some of the symptoms are different. Celiac feels like it's extreme. You start to know it. But what are. Where's the range? Do you become celiac once you've crossed over? Like, share with us a little bit about the difference.

So a lot of the difference comes from, I guess, scientifically, if you're talking about, like, celiac disease, there is actually a genetic predisposition for celiac disease. So like I said, my sisters, although they've never been tested, so I'm assuming they don't have celiac disease, but they don't show the symptoms. But I have people in my family that do have celiac disease. So there is a genetic predisposition, but for celiac disease. But when you're talking about, like, a gluten intolerance, it's typically called a non celiac gluten sensitivity. And this is basically just if you eat something with gluten, say, like, really heavy pasta dish, and you start feeling a lot of gastrointestinal issues, but you might not necessarily have, you know, the. The gut damage. So that's a telling sign. Like, if you don't have the damage to your small intestine, but you're. You get really uncomfortable, really bloated, and a lot of times it can cause, like I said, GI issues. Sorry to be graphic, but, like, things like diarrhea or constipation are also telling signs. That's a telling sign for celiac disease, but it's usually the. The damage to the gut. If you don't have that, it's typically a gluten intolerance. And then there's also wheat allergy, similar to other allergens. It can cause inflammation to the gut as well as, like, skin irritation and even respiratory distress. So that's more like. If you've ever seen someone have a reaction to a peanut allergy, it might not necessarily be as severe as a peanut allergy, but you have those telling signs of, like, a skin irritation, like hive swelling, like that as well. Does that answer your question?

Yeah. Eczema.

Yeah, y. It can cause that. But like I said, with celiac, there's a lot of times there's like a. A rash that you get here. Like, it's always on the back of the arms for some reason. And it also kind of looks like eczema, but it's not in everyone. That's why I said it's really. It can be really difficult to. To diagnose people. And even with celiac disease, the blood test. So there's usually a blood test in a small intestinal biopsy. The blood test isn't always accurate. I think the last time I was reading, there's like a 40% false positive rate, which is huge. So it's not always accurate. But the small intestinal biopsy is going to show that damage to the small intestine.

What I'm curious about is you didn't discover this until you were 14 or 15 in high school. So were you suffering for 15 years before they even discovered it?

Yeah. So when they did the biopsy, because we usually went to the same doctor, like, growing up, when I was a baby, I was really colicky and always had GI issues. So they told me, like, when they diagnosed me, they said, oh, yeah, you've probably had this your entire life. We just didn't figure it out until now. Which, like I said, it's Great that they figured it out, but, and the testing has come a long way. And I think part of that is because it's, it's becoming more and more prevalent. I think something like 1% of the entire population has celiac disease, but most of it goes unaccounted for because people, again, it's not always tested. You have to go through all these hoops to basically convince someone to test you for some reason. And I think again, that comes back to how inconsistent the symptoms are between people.

So can an into, can an intolerance be developed?

From what I understand, it could be, but I think, I think that is likely dependent on how much and what type of foods you're eating. Like, if you're eating things that are highly processed, you're also eating a lot of preservatives and things that our body probably shouldn't have and especially in large quantities. So that can probably trigger some of these sensitivities. Just because it's almost like your body is saying enough, like you need to change the way you eat. Because our bodies are more resilient, I think, than we give ourselves credit for. But yeah, if you. I'm not, I'm not 100% certain if it can turn in. Like if you can develop an intolerance down the road. But I would say the more processed foods you eat, the likelihood is you're going to develop some sort of intolerance just because it's, it's not good for you health wise.

So the other thing I'm curious about, in addition to that, the other side of that question is if you were to eat gluten free, say for 15 years, could you, and then try to start eating it again, would your body reject it?

So typically that has been, that has been the case. Like if you cut something out of your diet and then try to go back to it very suddenly, your body's going to be like, what is this? What are you, what are you putting inside of me right now? And it could cause a bit discomfort. Now you might be able to work with that. You might be able to do like small increments, not with celiac, because again, that's an autoimmune disease. But if you have some intolerance, you might be able to work your way up to having it more than nothing. But I would like, if you're getting a lot of discomfort and a reaction from it, I would caution that just because again, you don't, you don't want to be sick. Yeah.

So I'm going to ask you Two more questions. At the risk of sounding. At the risk of it being a silly question. Okay. Because it's just. Because I don't have any. I don't. I'm. I don't have context for it. I'm curious, as an autoimmune, with this. With celiac being an autoimmune, does that mean that you are at risk for other autoimmune symptoms and autoimmune def. Deficiency. Is that the right word? Or other autoimmune.

Yeah. So typically. Typically, if you have an autoimmune disorder or disease, your immune system is already weakened, so it can cause other autoimmune deficiencies or disorders. Like, for me, I actually have more than celiac. I have this thing called Raynaud's disease. So it's. It's like an intolerance to cold, and it's just because I'm not able to regulate temperature as well as I otherwise would be. But that's another type of autoimmune. I think It's a disorder, a disease.

I couldn't think of the word.

I was like, is it?

Yeah, I feel like it's. This seems like such a harsh word, but, yeah, that's why I called it a deficiency, because it's really just the. The immune system fighting itself, essentially.

Yeah. And it's just like, already kind of set back a little bit, so it's easier, I guess, to develop something else. But just like anything, there are ways to overcome and live as normal as you want to be. But as I said before, I don't even know what normal means. So.

So the other question that I said at the risk of sounding, you know, foolish, was, you know, we hear things like gluten and dairy. So as a celiac, can you have dairy? Or is that no go as well?

So they're not necessarily tied together. If you're talking about. Are you talking about dairy or lactose?

Well, it depends. Right. Like. So I'll give you an example. Right. Like. So, lactose is the sugar in the milk. So I know that old people will have insensitivity or sensitivity to lactose. But, like, my daughter has. Is actually allergic to the casein, which is not the way in milk, but it's the other protein in milk. So when she was young, she had allergies to. To casein. So we kind of. And we're not done. Listen, my daughter's 8, so I know that we're going to have, you know, autoimmune is in our future. I foresee my mom has lupus. And we have. My. My sister's already been. Has the autoimmune marker. Like, it's. We know that it's in my pretty. We are genetically predisposed. So I'm waiting until it comes down to the time. Right. So anyway, all that. Our doctor was lumping a lot of, like, well, cut out the dairy, cut out the way. Or casein, and then now also cut out the gluten. And I was just curious if there was context around it being related, Relatable in the autoimmune world.

Yeah. So like I said, it's not necessarily. They're not necessarily tied together. I would say if. I don't know if you've already cut gluten out of her diet. Have you done that? No, not yet.

No.

Okay. Why did he. Maybe that's like a conversation for a separate time. The reason I'm asking is because if he has any inkling that she does have celiac disease, it's better to be tested when you actually have gluten in your system, because as soon as you cut gluten out of your system, the damage to the small intestine starts to heal, which is what you want, because then you can maybe worry a little bit less about nutrient deficiencies or something like that. If she's not having symptoms, that's kind of why I'm asking. Why would he suggest that? But allergies.

She had symptoms, and she still does, but they're. They're different. Like, they're. They're. I. It's interesting because nobody would think she has symptoms, but I am very familiar with this world. I mean, not as familiar as you, but, like, I. I know that she experiences symptoms and people wouldn't know. So, for example, we cannot leave the restaurant without her going to the bathroom. And I know that's a symptom.

That's unusual.

Yeah, yeah. Like, that's. People can usually leave. Like, I. I can. I'm, like, counting down the times that she eats and goes to the bathroom. So I know I can pay attention to that and be like, oh, we need to look at this. Right. When most people aren't looking that closely. Because she doesn't. She doesn't have, like, you know, she doesn't have outward pain. It's not like, buckle over pain, like, yet. Yet. But she's also 8, so the amount she's eating is very small. So that's why I'm. It's on my mind. I'm paying attention to it. I'm monitoring it. I'll say that I would just say.

If she's already got one allergy. If that's confirmed, I would test for a wheat allergy, but she would probably have a bigger reaction if that was the case. If you want to go down the road of testing for gluten or celiac disease, I would maybe suggest to your doctor to get a small intestinal biopsy. Yeah, that sounds very similar to when I was growing up. I didn't have a dairy allergy, but it was like, yeah, just really, I guess, maybe different reactions than everyone else that I was around. So that would be my.

Thank you, doctor. No, you know, I. I know. I. You know, it's. It's. It's such an interesting delicate balance between, like, knowing too much and then also. But being very acutely aware of exactly. Like, hey, because we also. It's my husband's side, My husband. It's my husband's nephew, and it's my sister and my mom. So it's. It. It would be not surprising. I almost feel like. But. And it is on my. You know, we are watching it, so we'll see. Yeah. And we also will have to go back to the allergist.

So, yeah, I would. I would probably maybe suggest. Be like, hey, let's look into this. But to answer your other question about lactose, it kind of goes back to if you have celiac disease and your gut is damaged a bit, anything that you eat could cause discomfort because you have to heal your gut first. But also keep in mind that, like, we're the only species that continues to drink milk after, like, two years old. And there's like, a biological reason that other animals naturally wean off of milk, and it's because the gut doesn't always produce the amount of lactase, which is the enzyme that's required to break down lactose in great enough quantities to basically avoid that discomfort. Does that make sense?

Yes. Yeah.

So that's. That's kind of just like a. A lactose thing. But, yeah, if you have damage to the gut, it is sensitive because it's inflamed. So just keep in mind, like, anytime there's. Even if you have a cut on your arm, it's going to be inflamed a little bit around that cut, so it's tender when you touch that area. It's kind of the same thing when you think about the damage to the gut in the small intestine. If you have celiac disease, anything you eat could cause irritation or discomfort as well. Hope that makes sense.

It does. It does make sense. Now I'm curious because we, we are talking about food and you did mention it. So I want to, and I do want to be mindful of your time, so. But because this is going to be a big question, but one of the things that you mentioned that I want to unpack is you were talking about the science of delicious food. You didn't quite say it like that, but you kind of said it like that. You have really been studying how to essentially unlock, you know, full flavors and deliciousness of food, especially for people who are kind of forgotten about or treated as other. Like, you know, the food options for gluten free people are cardboard.

Yeah.

I mean, I say that with confidence. Living with a, you know, or knowing enough. Having a nephew that's celiac glute or that's gluten. Gluten free. And having another niece who is. Has an intolerance and prefers gluten free lifestyle.

Yeah.

Can you share with us a little bit of like, how can we make our foods delicious?

Oh, that is, that is a loaded question. And you're risking getting into the very nerdy side of listening.

I'm into do it. Listen, we're here for it. We are a science based podcast. Let's go.

That's good. So when it comes to cooking, every single step of the way is going to impact the quality of the food that you eat. So, and I'm not just talking about celiac friendly foods. I understand most. That's why I said most of the processed foods that are available for celiac people are gross. First of all, a majority of them taste like cardboard. They like the bread loaves are half the size and twice as expensive as normal bread. So I'm a little bitter about that. But you can make your own. You can make your own bread. And there are a few companies that have really come a long way when it comes to gluten free products. And I, I'm very loyal to those companies. But if we're talking about just regular cooking in general, you have to realize that starting at the grocery store, that is going to impact everything you cook. So depending on the meat that you get, the vegetables, the quality of those ingredients are going to influence everything else. But then there's also a science to it. So when you're cooking, like I said, part of my project was to look at how specific proteins break down during the cooking process. So if we're talking about meat, there's two particular proteins that are involved in muscle contraction. This is why I said you're risking the nerdy territory for me. But those proteins are myosin and actin. Now, they impact muscle contraction. And when you're getting meat, those. Those products are coming from an animal that's been harvested and have gone through the rigor mortis process. So those are contracted proteins. The important thing is when you cook those, say you're cooking a steak, those proteins break down at specific temperatures and myosin breaks down and it actually causes a fiber in the muscle to shrink, but so does actin. And when those fibers shrink, it pushes water out of that steak and it becomes less juicy and tougher. So you have to find the balance of when do I stop cooking? I know a lot of people think that well done steak is great. I don't understand that. But. But there's like a whole science behind just proteins when you're cooking. But then if you go into things like when to add spices or, you know, the flavorful herbs that you have, you add those at specific times during cooking to optimize those flavors, the fragrance and everything else. So that could be like a whole nother.

I know. I was like, we're going to need a podcast too, to teach us the science of cooking, because, yeah, I would.

Love that because I absolutely love cooking. And like I said, for me, especially when I get to cook something, it's like a science experiment and I get to be really creative. But then it also comes down to knowing that everything that I'm making, I'm also nourishing myself and my family because I know that they're getting really high quality food. But, yeah, I don't know. I. I know that didn't answer your question about how to cook good food.

Well, I am. I mean, it did a little bit. It opened up the door. And we'll definitely do number two, because I do want to know this, because I, like you were talking about, you know, I, I love the concept about, like the con. The contraction of the protein and as they go through that process. So is that part of the reason why people tenderize the meat? Like when they're beating them up, are they trying to. To.

I wouldn't recommend doing that.

Oh, yeah, tell me. Because usually they tell you to do that. They tell you to beat up the meat.

Yeah. So, like, are you talking about steaks or what are you talking about?

I usually. They usually tell you to punch up your chicken.

Right. So it kind of goes back to what I was saying. When we cook those products in, those fibers shrink. It pushes out water. Because if you're shrinking the fiber, that Water is held within the fibers, and it has to go somewhere. And when they. When the fibers contract, the water just goes out.

It contracts.

No, when you hit it, it breaks those fibers. So it allows the water to come out before you even cook the product.

So you're not even having a heat, but the water's leaving it. So you're cooking. You're making the chicken dry before you even put it on the heat.

Yeah, that's a risk for sure. Yeah. So, and then the other thing, like, here's a quick tip for you to, like, next time you go to the store and you want to make sure that you're starting with good ingredients. Have you ever gone into a store and picked up, say, like, a packet of chicken and there's a lot of fluid at the bottom of that package. So that's water that was once in the muscle that's already come out. So you're already setting yourself up for very dry, potentially chicken. So put that back and get something else.

Oh, that's so good. Yeah, I never even thought about that. I usually don't get the one with the air and don't get the. Don't do that. Yeah, if there's any air in it, there's bacteria. So let's just not do that one. Yeah, then. And.

Yep.

That's amazing.

Yeah. So if you have a package of. And it can happen with chicken, pork, steak, whatever it is. If there's a lot of fluid in that package, I would recommend putting that back on the shelf for someone else and then. And then picking something else that doesn't have as much fluid, because all of that fluid is. It's actually. I know a lot of people think it's blood. It's actually water that was once in the muscle, and it. It also contains the protein from muscle that's called myoglobin. Myoglobin. It sticks with water, but it's what gives me the color. So that's why it looks like reddish pink. It's not blood, but it is water that was once in those products that isn't there now. So you're already going to start off with potentially really dry, tough chicken.

Oh, that's interesting. Or is that true for red meat, too?

Yeah. Anytime there's water out of the pack or out of the product, then it's already losing that water before. Again, before you even start cooking. It's just more prevalent in things like chicken.

Okay, I have to ask you another question.

Okay.

I'm so sorry. We're probably gonna have to do. I Know, we're gonna answer number two because I'm curious, like how, speaking of water and flavor of food, how do you eat frozen vegetables?

I do my absolute best to not eat frozen or boiled vegetable.

Okay. Because my question is how do you make those not soggy and disgusting?

You throw them away and get fresh vegetables.

I have done everything I can to try and make those like vegetables taste good. I just, I've even put them in the air fryer to try and make them crispy. Those are soggy. You just, it does not work.

Yeah, it's not great. Part of that comes from how they're processed before they go into that package. And I think I have not had frozen vegetables for years. But if I remember correctly, the instructions on that bag say like they advise you to actually boil the vegetables which.

Builds out all the nutrients outside in the well.

And that's what I was going to say. That's why I also don't eat boiled vegetables. Because when you boil vegetables, you're pulling out the water and all of the water soluble vitamins and minerals, which is essentially all of the vitamins and minerals in the vegetables and then you pour that water down the drain and eat broccoli for no reason other than it's green. It's essentially what it is. I have an issue with boiled and frozen vegetables in case you, I'm noticing.

Okay, but, but you, you hear on all these tiktoks like, you know, it's accessible and it's better than nothing. And you're essentially saying, is it?

I mean, yes, it's accessible, but if you're eliminating the nutrients that are in those products, then what's the point of eating them?

Yes.

Right.

Okay, well, how do you clean? Okay, more tick tock questions. What about like strawberries and raspberries? How do you keep, how do you present the berries and the fresh produce from going bad?

What do you mean like getting moldy.

And like, and like, you know, cleaning them out. So like for example, we'll buy berries and then if you don't eat them that day, they're you, they go moldy in the fridge. Right.

So yeah, so a couple of, couple of things with that depending on the season. And I know like that doesn't really help you because you obviously can't control the season. But depending on the season, certain berries are obviously in season. You want to buy the things that are in season when they're in season because they're going to last longer. But when it comes to everything else, and I know what you're talking about. And it's incredibly frustrating.

Those price of those berries, they just keep going up. Why?

No, but I actually do my best to buy fresh produce from local farms. And the main reason. Well, there's a couple reasons, obviously, like, I always like to support the local businesses, but also if you're going to, and I know for some people it might not be possible, but if you're going to the big chain grocery stores that have constant stocks of all of these fruit and vegetables, you know, you don't actually know how long it's been since those vegetables and fruits have actually been picked and away from the farm. And as soon as those products are picked from the farm, they start to break down and all of these oxidative processes begin. So that's why I say it's. It's better to buy local, not just to support the local businesses, but because, you know, they're giving you the fresh products and those products haven't been away from the farm for a long enough time to get moldy before you even get back to the house.

So you can't clean them. Don't clean them. Go to the farm. Go to the farmers market.

I would go to the farmer's market. And like, if you're worried about, I know a lot of people worry about, like, pesticides and things like that, you can always ask them what they use and they'll tell you. And because these, these people are really invested in what they do and they're really passionate about it. So they're going to be happy to talk to you about how they produce their food. But when it comes to, like, washing vegetables and fruits and things, I'm probably not a good example of that. And it's partly because I know where my food's coming from. But if you do have to buy things from the grocery store, the, the fruit that, like, unlike a banana, obviously the banana has a peel or an orange has appeal. So you don't necessarily have to scrub those. I would just use cold water and then always wrap them in like a paper towel afterwards to get any moisture that's there off. Then put them in the fridge. Specifically in that. If you have a drawer in your fridge that is like a crisper drawer, I think is what it's called, but that's what I would do.

So you put wet paper towels or you put a paper towel in your produce?

No, sorry. After you say, like you're washing apples, I always dry them. Paper towel and then put it back in the fridge. Yeah.

Okay. So like, if you put A top paper towel in with your produce, will that help them longer? Live longer?

If it's a dry paper towel, it might. I don't know, but it might. Only because that would be something that would absorb the humidity changes or any condensation that's potentially in that drawer. And does that would likely happen every time you open the refrigerator. It's going to change the temperature a little bit. Obviously, like, don't hold your refrigerator door open for 10 minutes at a time. But. But if you.

I have kids. That's a big app. Yeah.

So look, I don't know how to help that part, but. But like, if you put a dry paper towel in that drawer, it could absorb some of the humidity and condensation and potentially make the shelf life last a little bit longer. But otherwise I would say try to get something that, you know, hasn't been picked 12 months ago, because a lot of times that is what happens. Say you're. You're in New York, Right. Okay. So most of your citrus fruits is going to be coming from California or Florida. So that's a long way. That's a long journey. Right. And you don't know how long it's going to take those trucks to get from the farm to the processing plant to make sure that, you know, a lot of places do clean the vegetables and fruits and then back into a truck to your store and then they have to sort it. And like, you don't know how long that process is, but you do know from the local farms that it's not that long at all. I don't know if that helps answer your question.

It does, it does. I've done the things that they tell you to do, but then it just makes it really mushy.

Yeah, I agree. That's why I say I'm probably not the best person to ask about that because I don't really scrub things, partly because I'm lazy. But the other thing is I know where the food's coming from and I know that they don't use pesticides or things like that.

Well, and I also want to share, any of you, to any of you who listen to this and think, yeah, but it's so expensive to go to farmer's markets. It's actually not. It's actually much. You save a lot of, like people say, oh, but frozen is so accessible. So is actually farmers market. If you can find a farmer's market, it's actually way more accessible than people think.

Yeah. And like you said, it's. It's a lot cheaper because you don't have to pay anyone that does essentially everything I just said, like from the farm to the sorting containers and the sorting centers and the trucks and all of the transportation, like all of the money that you pay for convenient fruit and vegetables at the big grocery stores has to be divided to everything in between. So it is a lot cheaper. And also if you're investing in your health and you know that you're getting something that's going to prevent you from getting sick, it's cheaper that way because then you don't have to pay, you know, by your health and a decline in your health specifically.

Yeah. Okay. So I want to be mindful of your time and I probably could talk 10 years about the science of cooking and we'll do, we'll do a part two, so we'll do another episode. But for what I'm curious about, I know you've got these amazing cookbooks that you have put together that have a lot of gluten free recipes. I'm curious, do these cookbooks also have like, do you talk about some of the science of cooking and how to prepare some of these meals so that it can really bring out some of these incredibly non cardboard flavors?

So in my recipe books, I, I don't necessarily get into the science. They're mainly just recipes that are for anyone who has can't have gluten, lactose, soy, peanuts. And then I do have a fish and seafood recipe book, but that's separate just in case you have allergies for those as well. So it's kind of trying to help people who have a few intolerances or food restrictions that they can actually have food that tastes good. Most of the food doesn't actually use gluten free processed products. It's just using, like I said, meat, vegetables and fruits and making something that tastes great. I don't necessarily go into the science. I'm thinking maybe I should because I feel like that will help people come up with, you know, recipes on their own and they will actually be able to know what they're doing is making a difference. So maybe that's.

Well, we can talk about, we'll talk about that on the side. We'll talk about that on the side.

Yeah.

Not only just to help them, you know, but also what's really awesome about these books that I, because I've seen them, they're amazing. What is awesome about them too is that even if you do not suffer from celiac or gluten intolerance the way that others, you might have people in your life that do and you always want to be kind and supportive and then it's good. Like the food tastes good.

Yeah, that's the important part. But I had, before I've had someone buy this book and I was just asking just because I was curious, you know, do you have celiac disease? Because if you don't see a recipe in this book, but you would love it, I'd. I'd be happy to try and come up with something for you. And he said, no, I want to have this so that because I have friends that have celiac disease, I want to be able to make them something and they don't have to feel like they're left out. And that to me was just like, you get it, you're great. Yeah, thank you. So, yeah, that's important. Yep. Yeah.

Okay. All right. So for those of you who are tuning in and want to learn more, want to work with you, want to go deeper. Where? I mean, because I also wanted to ask you, like how you train when you have celiac and how do you navigate?

I feel like we got a little bit.

No, listen, listen. This is, there's just so much to unpack. There's just so many different moving components that I think are so important. So. Yeah, can you tell me where, where I can send people?

Yeah. So if you want the recipe books, it's shop.lamasterfit.com I also have a website, lamasterfit.com and then Instagram is michelle_lamaster fit. And on that Instagram there's a couple of links. It'll actually link you to the recipe books, the blog, and then there's also an opportunity to get on a free one on one call with me to just kind of talk about something that you're struggling with, particularly with food or food restrictions. It doesn't have to be celiac or gluten free. And then basically it's just going to be me and you. We talk about what you're struggling with and I give you pointers on how to overcome that in the short term and then other opportunities for long term solutions.

Now what I really love about those one on one calls that you are facilitating right now is really giving people clarity around the feelings of anger around food. Right. It just doesn't matter whether you are in pain or for whatever reason. You have these, these feelings of like fear around eating and you want to eat with ease and enjoy the company of, you know, foods with your friends. Like, I really, I know that you are providing some really incredible insight for people who are struggling. So I'm excited.

Yeah. And a lot of it comes from like just breaking down that.

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