Understanding Power Skills with Ali Kershner

You're listening to the PT Profit podcast, episode number 196. Today I'm sitting down with Ali Kirschner, who is the director of Creative strategy at Art of Coaching, and we're talking all about understanding power skills. Are you ready? Let's get started.

Hi, I'm Beverly Simpson, former fitness manager turned online personal training business owner. And this podcast is where smart fitness professionals, including trainers and clinicians, discover how to increase client performance and movement, package and position their products and services and get out of their own way so that they can increase their revenue to live a life that they love without sleazy sales. Welcome to the PT Profit Podcast.

What's up, coach? Thank you so much for pushing play on another episode of the PT Profit Podcast Podcast. I'm your host, Beverly Simpson, and I'm super pumped to dive into today's episode. So if this is the first time that you're hanging out with me today, welcome. I have a very special guest. I have Ali Kirschner, who is the director of the creative strategy at Art of Coaching, which was founded by Brett Bartholomew. There she oversees education, marketing, content creation while co facilitating workshops and live events. Prior to joining Art of Coaching, Ali was the associate sports performance coach for Stanford's women's basketball and women's golf. While at Stanford, she helped the Cardinals to a Pac 12 regular season and conference tournament championship in 2021, as well as the NCAA National Championships in 2021. Now, before Stanford, Ali was an assistant sports performance coach at the University of Kansas, where she worked with women's soccer, women's basketball, swimming, and women's golf. She earned her Master's in exercise physiology from Kansas and is a certified strength and conditioning specialist through the National Strength and Conditioning Association. Inside of this episode, we talk about Ali's journey specifically and how it influenced her to finally take the leap and join Brett Bartholomew's vision and mission of truly understanding what they now call power skills instead of soft skills. Hence the title, really empower people and empower coaches to facilitate change and transformations inside of your business. So, without further ado, let's go ahead and roll that interview. What's up, Ali? Thank you so much for joining me on the show today. How are you?

I'm good. How are you?

I'm doing so good. I am super pumped for today's episode. Before we hit record, it was just I was word vomiting on you, so I can't wait to hear what you are going to share with us today. So for those of you who are listening and haven't had the pleasure of learning about your work. I'd love for you to share a little bit about who you are, who you serve and how you got there.

Great question, right? Everybody's favorite question. Introducing yourself. Yeah, I mean, my background is in sports performance or strength and conditioning. I was in the collegiate space for nearly in my entire sports performance career, which was about seven years, I want to say. I was at the University of Kansas. I was at Stanford and got to work with basketball and golf and swimming, soccer and all the good sports. And from there I have since transitioned to my current role, which is at Art of Coaching with Brett Bartholomew, who I know you know, and I am sort of a doer of all things. But my official title is Director of Creative Strategy. Now what that means is part marketing, part facilitating. I teach our workshops, I do our mentoring online, one on one coaching. So I have my hands on a little bit of everything. And I've had to learn pretty much any skill. And I'm sure these are all skills that you talk to your audience about all the time, but whether that's copywriting, sales, marketing, graphic design, I've had to pick it all up. And I, you know, from just a strength coach till now, it's been quite the journey, I will say.

I can't imagine. I mean, that's amazing. So now I'm just out of curiosity, of my own curiosity is what was that transition like? Are you still doing coaching? Are you primarily doing, you know, more of the marketing sales components? Like, do you feel a little bit like you're missing that, that staying in that sports performance coaching world?

Yeah, that's a great question. You know, I think initially the people I missed were my individual athletes, but I still get to coach every day. So even though it's a lot online, I'm coaching coaches now as opposed to coaching athletes. And I would say, one, it's way more difficult and two, it's just as rewarding. And you know, I'm able to still have that human interaction which is always what was my favorite part of coaching anyway and why I chose to take the path I did. You know, I, I love programming, I love being in the gym, but really the psychology, the human behavior, the leadership, the communication was what kind of got me out of bed every day. And so coming to Art of Coaching, I got to make that my full time role. And now even that Covid has, has progressed to where it is. We're able to do a lot in person as well with in person workshops. So still coaching a lot.

That's so cool. So how did you get to the art of coaching? What brought you there?

Great question. So like I said, I've always been interested in communication, relationships, all of that, and really how that those aspects of human behavior affect performance. So for context, I did my master's thesis on how verbal instructions or verbal cues affect motor learning. And I actually used the Kansas baseball team as my subjects. So that was pretty cool. I got to actually test this with an elite population of athletes. And that really drove me to be like, okay, there's something here. There's something about the relationship a coach can create specifically with words, with communication that has a direct impact on their performance. It's not just something that's subjective, but it's actually cold hard numbers that you can see. Right. And so I really started in more context. I'm a huge nerd. So this was a huge rabbit hole that I went down. I read every leadership and communication book I could find. I did the whole, you know, going through the library and checking out every single resource possible and I tried to then apply it, but I felt like some things were missing right from what I was learning and what I was able to deduce from these resources. A couple of things, like they weren't. The resources weren't super practical and they're not experiential. Right. You're just reading a book. And two, I think they painted this picture of leadership and communication as almost like whitewashed and very black and white. You just do this and you'll have results. And I was going back and trying to apply that with my athletes and I just wasn't seeing that that was the case. X wasn't always equaling Y. And so around that time, we had brought my friend, now one of my best friends in the whole world, Brett Bartholomew, into speak at our conference and I had the distinct honor of picking him up from the airport. And I think, I think we chatted the whole 45 minute ride back from the airport and we haven't stopped talking since. So he and I sort of stayed in touch with him throughout the final few years of my coaching career. And then when I was at Stanford, I was, I was just ready for something new. And so that's a long winded explanation. But I felt like art of coaching and Brett specifically were the right step for me because he was trying to do something that I had not yet found. He was trying to make it tactical, experiential. And he also was somebody who did not believe in this one size fits all model of leadership. And Communication. And everybody has, you know, a distinct need and voice. And how do you actually do that and how do you put into practice? So not only the person Brett, but the ideas that he was trying to teach were something that really resonated with me.

So good and so powerful because I really talk about these or think of these as the invisible skills in the sense that it's those feelings that we get when we're in a room where it's like we can't put our finger on why we're comfortable or we can't put our finger on why something is off. But there's a knowing that something is. Is just not really working. And one of the things, one of the things I had noticed about Brett specifically is that is the uncanny ability to completely put the room at ease and connect pretty quickly. And a lot of people don't do. Are struggle with that and they don't know why and then don't know what they don't know. But how can they ask the questions to make it better, you know?

Yeah, absolutely. He's. He's one of the most engaging speakers I'd ever seen or met. And I think that I saw that and I was like, okay, there's something here. Like, I want to learn what he's doing to figure out how I can better relate to not just my athletes, but now obviously coaches, you know, business people, marketers, anyone clients that we serve.

Yeah. So I'm also, I'm also curious just in terms of your journey so specifically. Also, by the way, I'm from the Bay Area.

Oh, really? No way.

Hey, like Bay Area specific. Like you said, Stanford. I'm like, oh, I'm from Mountain View.

Okay. I live in Palo Alto.

Oh my gosh. Amazing. Okay, so we're like neighbors, but I'm actually in New York now, so it's okay.

We'll still, we'll still. You're welcome anytime.

I love that area. It's beautiful. Anyway, so there must have been this moment for you where a sticking point where you knew you had to make a decision about, you know, betting on yourself and going all in on you. What was that process that you went through that led you to finally say, okay, enough is enough. I'm ready to go down this path.

That's such a. Such an interesting question. You know, I had so many moments of self doubt when I was about to make that transition because I, for, you know, all intents and purposes, I was really at a peak of my career. And I think that's also what led to the decision that I made when I made it, because I was 27 at the time, I was at my dream school back in my hometown. This is actually where I grew up. And I had, I was working with the best team in the nation. We had just won a national championship. And I felt like, I love what I do, I love what I do, but I'm 27 and I've accomplished every goal that I've set out to accomplish. And I don't necessarily have aspirations of being a director of sports performance because I wanted to stay involved in coaching as much as possible. That was the part that I really loved. So I took that, that was one piece of data and then the next piece of data was, you know, I'm somebody who has an insatiable thirst for learning and self growth and self development. And it wasn't that I wasn't going to get that if I had stayed, but it was like, hey, if I have aspirations of going out and starting my own business or, you know, expanding my reach or, you know, who I'm able to help in the future, I do need more skills that I'm not going to be able to dedicate as much time to. So I wanted a place where I could help build something, where I could impact more lives, where I could teach myself new skills that I wasn't necessarily going to be exposed to. And then there was, the last piece, was I'm somebody who needs to pursue the uncomfortable because I can very easily slip into routine and consistency and tell myself, convince myself that that is progress, when in reality it's security and it's safety. Uh, so all of those things combined, I was like, it's, it's time. If not now, when? Because I'm not, I'm only getting older, right? So I was ready.

It's interesting. I always say the pursuit of security is where dreams go to die. Sounds dark, but I'm also curious. You use the word coaching and that you loved coaching. How do you define coaching? What makes a good coach to you?

Oh, wow, that is an incredible question. Let me say, if I said coach, I loved coaching, I still obviously love coaching. As a company, define coaching as leading, mentoring, teaching, growing, developing. We use it interchangeably with leadership or with leading. And I think that honestly that's something that we've, we've tried really hard to instill in everyone that we work with and come into contact with because we are trying to not just work with other quote unquote coaches, personal trainers, the traditional sport coach definition, but anyone who works with people Anyone who has curiosity and intent to help another individual in their process is how I would define a coach. And so that's, that's what we're trying to go after instead of just this related to sport. Because in reality, the word coach goes back to, I think it's like early Hungry, where it was used to describe the stagecoach which got people from point A to point B. And then later the word coach was used in England, I think, to describe people who were tutors or educators. And then only in like the more recent 19th, 20th century was it adopted for sport. So really the word coach goes way back before even we were relating it to, you know, sticks and balls and all those things.

You know, it's very interesting. It's interesting to me because I'll share that one of my biggest downfalls as a coach and a leader was, at least in my earlier, earlier days, was the idea that in order to be a good coach meant that I had to do the work for my clients or I felt, I felt a deep sense of responsibility that if they weren't achieving it, that it was my fault or that me as the coach was failing them. And I think that it actually, that would relate more to, you know, the, the authenticity of the. Where the word originates, going from point A to point B. But as I've grown and evolved and become a parent, I have recognized and realized that a coach, for me at least, is the person that facilitates the, you know, carries. Facilitates the transformation as opposed to being responsible for making it happen.

I think one of the biggest compliments a coach can get is you taught me how to think and not what to think. And I think that was something that I had missed in the early going as well. And towards the end of my career in a weight room I started, I took a completely different approach than I had in the beginning where I would hand them the workout card and I would over explain and I would demonstrate every exercise. And I was like drilling into their skull what I wanted them to do. And towards the end I used to more of a model of differential learning and play and autonomy because I had an experience with an athlete during my time at Kansas. Where I had. It was during finals week. And during finals week, typically we would just let the athletes come in for an open hour just in between exams so that they could just get a quick sweat in and then go back to studying. And I remember this. I one day on the whiteboard I just wrote playground. And the idea behind a playground workout is you choose what would you do if you Got to a playground. Nobody's writing up super sets and rep schemes up on a whiteboard for a playground workout, right? And so they're like, okay, well, but what do I do? And I was like, well, you do whatever you want. You want to do three sets of bicep curls, you do that. You want to run on the treadmill, you do that. This is truly your time. I want to empower you to make the decision. And this particular individual looked at me again and said, but can you just tell me what to do? I don't know. I don't know enough to design a workout. And I think there's. There's two sides to that. One is some people do just like to be told what to do. And the weight room is still a difficult place to be. Um, and so, okay, there's that side of things. So it's more of a psychology. Psychological block, maybe. But the other side was, I realized and had to look deep inside myself and said I had held their hand so much that I had not really taught them how to not necessarily design a workout, but even just know what felt good or know what they liked. And I think if you leave a client or an athlete leaves a coach's tutelage and doesn't know how to take care of themselves, then we're still responsible as a coach for not having imparted that wisdom.

So good. You mentioned the model of differential learning. Can you expand on that? What does that look like, and how have you built that into your coaching practice? This.

Yeah. So I think the simplest way to describe differential learning, and it's a very deep, complex set of. We'll just. We'll just leave it. It's much deeper than this. But I will say the idea is repetition without repetition. So, for example, because in sport, you're not ever going to run, cut, jump, kick, punch, exactly the same way. You can't. It's the same idea of, you know, agility is not just running around cones. It's being able to react to the conditions in the context as it happens. So while those drills are great for fundamental understanding of the movement and essential. Right. Like, I'm not just going to throw an athlete in there and be like, okay, every squat you do is going to be different with an athlete with that basic level of understanding who's shown a certain level of movement proficiency. I'm going to say, I want you to try running from point A to point B ten times, and every time has to be slightly different. I want you utilize a different set of locomotion patterns or I want you to squat, but I want you to adjust your feet and try squatting in slightly different pattern or tempo every time. And it's just the idea of training our brain to recognize and adapt to changing scenarios as opposed to getting really good at one specific thing and then over relying on that skill or that pattern. Well, and just to continue, I think that applies to everything in life, right? Like we've never met before and this entire conversation is improv. I don't know what you're about to ask me and you have no idea what I'm about to say. So if we practice communication in a very rote, memorized, controlled way, it wouldn't prepare us for a conversation like this because we really don't know what the other person's about to say. So it can apply to every part of your life and your, your, your skill set. So training that way is what's really going to help you be a successful individual going forward.

So it's so true 100%. And I'm also curious, you know, what is the percentage of people that don't even realize that they're over relying on a certain skill set? Right? I mean, because I'll give you a tangible example. I was just, I was on a mastermind. One of my mastermind calls for me. I'm in this mastermind. And one, the coach was giving feedback and she was giving feedback that I was like, oh, this doesn't pertain to me. I'm good. But it was directly for me. And she said to me, she said, beverly, if you're so good at doing this, how come I'm not seeing it? And I'm like, I'm doing it. And then I realized, oh, I'm actually not. Why is that? You know, so was helping me see something I couldn't see, which is why coaching is so important. So, so I'm curious, how many of the people in your world also have that experience?

Everyone. Every single one. I mean, it's the way the education system set up. It's the way that we. It is true. Like, like, it is why, like X, Y, Z linear processes, they do work, right? So I'm not saying that you can't get really good at a skill by a very linear way of thinking or programming. I'm not saying that doesn't work. I'm saying if you want to optimize for a chaotic world or environment, which sport, by the way, and life is, then at some point you do have to interject chaos and you do have to interject uncertainty and a lack of constraint to a certain point, autonomy. So that you take the skills that you have learned. Right. So hopefully you've built the foundations, the fundamental patterns. Okay, I'm going to now apply it in a more uncertain scenario so that it does have direct application to life. Because I'm just as guilty of this. I, I love the idea of control. I love the idea of consistency and routine. If it was up to me, I would have the same morning every day. I would. And this got me into trouble. I did struggle with an eating disorder because I've been able to convince myself that consistency and control are the way to progress. And in reality, those things are very easy for me, as opposed to what's really difficult for me, which is giving up control, accepting the offer, which is what you call it, an improv, and just doing something with it, moving the ball forward. And so I think the way that we're taught initially feeds into this. The system of which is not really serving us when we go out into the real world.

Oh my gosh, it's so, it's so true. Now I'm curious, what are some of the ways that you have navigated with your clients, with yourself, this understanding the nuances between what is self sabotaging you versus I just need to, you know, stick out this process. And then once I get out of that valley of despair, like that sticking point of like, oh, just I'm almost there and then overcoming it and you know, skyrocketing versus the, the, that safety and the like, oh, no, no, this isn't going to work. This isn't going to work. This isn't going to work.

Yeah, it's such a great question. I think if we had the answer to that, we would all be, we would all be multimillionaires. Exactly. But I think that we talk about this all the time in our business, right? Which is like, at what point will we hit that hockey stick growth? Like, is it worth it to just stick it out? Stay the process. Are we. Is that, you know, that thing that's gonna go viral or whatever, we all like to think that this, that that concept or that idea is right around the corner. And I think that as we know, if you are both putting in the work, the preparation and also getting feedback and constantly staying in touch with your clients, with your audience and those, those little, putting out those little feelers, I think that you can do both. You can be consistent, stay the process, but be willing to not succumb to sunk cost fallacy and Start over or try something different. Stay attuned to what your people actually need. It's. It is the hardest thing about business is when do you stay and when do you choose to pivot and try something different? And I think that we were working on that every single day. Of like we have all these ideas. Should we, should we go with the new or should we optimize the things that are currently working? Do we, where do we put our energy and our time and effort? Because you know, we just don't know.

And I think that this is true across the board. I mean you're talking about it too in business growth. But this is true when your clients hit plateaus or when your clients, you know, are, are at prs and they're trying to break through the next ceiling. Right? There's always going to be a next level of uncomfortability. And for me, I just know that there is going to be a new version of. Of or not new version rather. But, but there is going to require something different of you to get to that next level.

100%. I was talking to one of my good friends who works at the University of South Carolina with their women's basketball team and they. So Stanford won in 2021. They won this past year in 2020, 2022. And we talk, we were talking about the idea of do you just try to repeat what you did? She's a, she's a strength coach. So do you just try to repeat the same programs, the same periodization model that you followed in a year that obviously you guys were tremendously successful and you know, why wouldn't you try to replicate that? Right? But the team first of all is totally different. It's made up of different individuals. The context is different. The stressors are different. You've just come off of winning a national championship. You don't think that your players have now a target on their back? Additional Stressors, there's this whole NLI players are now making millions of dollars. You know, like you can't take previous successes and cut and paste and assume that they're going to work in a completely different environment. And I think we have to come into each new cycle or each new endeavor with that mindset of this. The fundamentals and the principles were good, but let's adjust it for the current context. Knowing that we can't control everything there.

Which is very hard for someone who loves the idea of control.

So hard. So hard. And I say all these things like, you know, like, oh yeah, easy peasy, right? I mean Like, I struggle with this every day. I struggle with this every single day of giving up control, allowing myself to try the new thing, to get uncomfortable. And that's honestly why I knew I had to join Art of Coaching. Because we, when we have our communication workshops, we teach communication through improv because it forces you to, one, be present in the moment, which is the most important thing for good communication. Two, you have to play off of your partner or your teammate or the person in conversation with you. If you don't, one improv fails, right? We've all. It just like is a horrible, horrible interaction. Nobody wants to watch that. And it forces you to think laterally. Like, you have to, you have to be a problem solver in conversation with that person. And, and the last piece is it just nobody gets away unscathed in improv. Like, you are going to fail. And so if you can just get over that through embarrassing yourself in these little improv games and scenarios that we set up, then you're finally going to be in a place where you can practice the real thing that you want to get better at.

It's so good. You know, I laugh, I laugh because I, you know, I used to be a former actor, so we had to do.

Oh, there you go.

Like that was.

Yeah, so, you know, yeah.

So I'm curious for you, in terms of communication, what are some of the biggest struggles and misconceptions that the coaches that you work with battle when it comes to their communication skills? And what are some of the best things that they can take away from this episode that they can start to instantly implement?

So one thing is that I hear all the time is I just want to, like, I just want to find my voice and I love that idea. I, I think that's something I feel very passionate about because as a young coach, I tried to replicate the voice or Persona of the other successful coaches that I saw. And that in essence was the downfall of my communication style. Because one, when you say I want to find my voice, well, which voice? Right? Because I'm sure, Beverly, you don't talk to your kids the same way you talk to your in laws or the same way you talk to your neighbor down the street. We all have different voices and that's adaptive. That's not a bad thing. It just means that we are able to look at our scenario, look at the audience and properly attune our message to those people. And so I think we get in this rut of like, I'm going to be an authentic direct communicator. All the time, when in reality that is very effective in some scenarios. But there are going to be times where you need to be a more empathetic, question based listener or communicator. And so I think giving up on this idea of there's this one style of communication that I should always be, but rather I need to receive information from my context, from my audience, and then properly decide what response or what tone or what messaging I'm going to apply. I think that's, that's definitely one thing. Obviously I think we struggle with listening and asking better questions and we can dive deeper into all of those if it's, if you want to, but those are just probably the big ones I see is lack of presence, lack of listening, lack of question asking, and then lack of attunement to your audience.

Oh, so good. Okay, so let's dive deep into a little, a little deeper into struggle with listening. How do, how does one know they're not a good listener?

You probably are wondering why people. And I listened to your episode with Jenny Riric, which I loved. I think people who aren't good listeners probably aren't, like she said, not getting questions asked of them because they aren't really attuned to what their audience wants and needs. I think you obviously are probably dominating the conversation or you are distracted. And all these things are very easy to do in today's day and age. We are in an attention economy where we're on our phones, we're fast pressed for trying to get our message out as quickly as possible, and our world does not lend itself to calm, composed conversations where listening can really thrive. I think it is really hard to tell if you're not a good listener or not, if you're not actively also getting feedback. And I had a post the other day about this, but I think we tend to ask for feedback once or twice and then take that input as now our direction going forward, it either confirms what we already thought or it's like, oh, that really like that. You know, it's, it's something negative or it's constructive criticism, but in reality, right, we've been to, we've been on Amazon, we've seen reviews of, you know, from Yelp. I'm an avid Yelp user and we see that these places, these restaurants, these businesses, everybody gets a bad review once or twice. And so are you looking at data points as opposed to patterns and trends? And so I would say in order to get a real comprehensive look at how you are as a listener, are you, are you Asking varied people in varied contexts, in varied scenarios and then taking that into consideration, comparing it to the data that you've already collected.

That is so powerful. And I really love love. I mean I've wrote it down three times. Attention economy. That is so powerful and so true. Right. I love it. And I also would add for me, is that. Can you repeat back what someone just said to you? People can.

Well, and, and that's, I think that's what Jenny talked about her episode a little bit about this idea of paraphrasing. There's this concept of, of mirroring as well. And I think people would suss you out real quick if you did just repeat everything that you just heard. But rather can you call back to something they said previously that. I think callbacks are one of the most powerful ways that you can show somebody you're listening. Because if I say, you know, I, you know, Beverly, I heard that you had two kids. Right. Like you didn't tell me that in the last sentence, but you did tell me that early in our conversation. And that shows me that you really were listening to the whole conversation and not just in that moment.

Yeah. So repeating back the intention of what you heard, essentially the interpretation of what you heard.

Exactly. We use, and it sounds so simple and we all do it all the time. But I think having a, a framework for it of having how to have better conversations of is very simple. We call it the three Rs. Research, Relate, Reframe. But research is what you're doing right now. You're asking me questions, you're getting information there. Many of them are open ended questions and you're seeking to really get to know me as your guest. The relate phase is where every once in a while you're jumping in with self disclosure of your own, where you're like, oh, I love that, or that reminds me of this or you know, when I had two kids or when I first met Brett. So you're, you're, you're showing me that you're interested by self disclosing. And I think we get some of this wrong sometimes because we think that as a leader it's all about the other person. It should never be about us. And in reality, how do you trust somebody that you don't know anything about? We, at some point we have to make ourselves relatable. And if we're not sharing selectively. Right. When appropriate, then it's really hard to trust somebody that we don't really see as a human who doesn't have vulnerabilities. And insecurities and things that are similar to us. We need to be able to see ourselves and the other person to really trust them. So I think that plays into the relate, which is the second R, and then the third is reframe. So as coaches, as leaders, often we want to impart wisdom or we want to share information, or we want somebody to do something like run faster, jump higher, lift more. We have to be able to take that information, that message, and put it in terms they would understand. And that can only happen if you've properly researched. Know what they under, know what they care about, know what language they use, know what matters to them, related to them as a person. And then you can deliver that information now in a much more specific, individualized way, as opposed to, I'm your coach. I need you to do this.

Yes, Connection.

Connection, exactly.

And for the record, and I'll speak for me, at least for me, the wanting to do it for them or to teach them what to do and how to do it was coming from a place of wanting them to not feel the pain of learning it the hard way. Like maybe I did or maybe another client did. And I know it comes from a good place. Place. I just think that we oftentimes miss that connection part, which is so important. And I know that I have in my client relationships, and those are the ones that, you know, are the hardest lessons that I'm glad I had.

Absolutely. When you say that you were trying to almost do it for them and it was coming from a good place, did you have a coach that didn't do this for you or I guess, like, I would be curious where that really comes from in your. In your background.

You know, for me, I think that. I think that for me, what it was, what it came down to was that I. It wasn't that I had a coach that didn't do it for me or that I expected it or wanted it. I think it comes. It came down for me of. Of the speed in which I got the outcome that I wanted.

Right.

And I think that. That it took a long time for me, and I know, and I operate now knowing that every experience and outcome served a specific purpose for me as a leader and as a coach. So I'm grateful for it. But in the moment that it's happening, I do not. I'm wanting to move through it faster, and I'm also wanting to do that for my. For my clients. And I think for me specifically, it was when I realized that I wasn't hover parenting over My kids because I wanted them to build resilience and I want them to feel confident and not second guess themselves and look to me for the decision. And I found myself being, no, this needs to come through you even as a six and seven year old. Right. And then I realized I'm not doing that for my clients. Right.

And I think I love that and I, it just made me reflect on my transition as a coach too. Of do you want immediate results or do you want the longevity of results? Because I think that as trainers, as coaches in a more sport oriented aspect, we are under a time pressure of these people are paying us money or there's pressure on us from above to get results immediately. Right. And because of that we do know what is the straightest path to results. We do. I mean it's like, well, you've got to, you know, eat like this, you got to sleep like this, you got to train like this, you got to do all these things. And by over coaching we can, if they are, you know, at least doing some of or most of what we're asking them to do, we, we know that they will get there and they will get there relatively quickly the long way about things where they actually learn or they take ownership and autonomy over that is not a model that is rewarded in the training environment. And I, I knew that and I felt that, I felt that pressure of, from my coaches like why isn't this person getting stronger? Why don't they look like they're, you know, building muscle as quickly? I was like, well, is that the goal? Because I feel like if that's the goal that we're chasing, we're missing, we're missing the boat here. Because like my goal as a coach was to empower them to leave my weight room as we talked about earlier, having learned something so that they could be a healthy, happy individual for the rest of their lives.

So true. And I also think that, this is why, you know, part of your, your framework in the third R is the reframe. Because it's also there is in my opinion a burden of responsibility on us to reframe the expectations of what is about to happen. Right. It's about setting, in my opinion, setting the boundaries of hey, these are the quick wins that we can anticipate. But to your point, this is really what we're looking for in terms of longevity and sustainability. And I think by the time people get to us, they've already, there's already been about a time investment of I tried that quick thing and it didn't work.

And it's those people. Those are the people I love working with the most. Because, and I do think that most people eventually, especially in business and I, I, I want to maybe, I don't know if this is true or not. I haven't been on the personal training side of things as much, but I feel like people who have been in business and have experienced the ups and downs and the need for having the patience and knowing that the quick thing rarely works out and the, you know, buy once, cry once kind of mentality of like, you know, like, if you think this is expensive, try hiring an amateur.

Right.

That whole, I think until you've had that experience, you, like you said, are not necessarily ready for true coaching. But, and that's where I think it can be frustrating because until you get the clients that have been through that and have not experienced success with the, with the short term, you're going to kind of run yourself rampant. But at a certain point, you get some of those clients and you're like, this is so refreshing.

You bring up a really good point that I think it's worth hitting on because I've made this mistake myself. Is the readiness factor is that there is truth. And also, again, in my opinion, there's, there is truth in the fact that you, that your client might not yet be at a readiness level to receive in the way that you give. And for me, I also learned that the hard way because I just knew, like, oh, if I can just get them out of their own way, they're going to just go, blah. But they just weren't ready yet to receive that. Yeah.

And I would build on that to say, is it our responsibility to then educate them about readiness and to create the customer and the client that we want to have and coach thousand a hundred percent. I mean, like, it's so frustrating, but it is true. Like, it is ultimately our responsibility to, to educate and to bring our consumer, customer, our client, our athlete along with us to create that future client that we want to work with.

I think 1,000%. I think, and I'll say, I'll even go as far as to say that it's an opportunity for us to do that, because when we can do that, then everybody's happy and we've built an empowered relationship where all of the decisions being made on all parties are clear, communicated, and from an empowered place.

Yeah. And I think that I do hear from people, coaches that I work with, who are like, I've tried this, I've tried that. I've tried this. I've tried that, and I still can't get them to listen to my message. And so we do a deep dive. We do, like, a true analysis of this situation, this coaching, relationship, whatever. And at the end of the day, if we've looked at what are the power dynamics, what are the influence tactics you've tried, how have you tried communicating with them, what's the context, all of these components that are wrapped up in the success of a relationship, and still there's nothing. Any response or, or success or progress. At least at that point. I say, remember that leadership is about the leader and the lead. There is a responsibility on the person being led. And you can't win them all because, like, you will drive yourself crazy as a coach, as a trainer, as a business professional if you think that you can save everyone.

That resonates with me so hard because it's. It's. It's just a deep. It's. It just comes from a place of you wanting to help. Right? Nobody. Nobody. I have yet to meet a person that, that goes into coaching. And, like, I just want to. I'm just doing it for the money.

Oh, no, you, yeah, you definitely don't go into coaching for the money.

I laugh. I can't even say it with a straight face. So, you know, it's just, it's.

And what I would say too is because there are some people that do get frustrated with that and, and they say, well, then why do I even focus on communication? Why? Like, if, if it's, you know, if I can't save them, like, why am I even trying? And I'll say, like, you know, if you get better at communication, you get better at these fundamentals and the quote unquote, soft skills, we actually call them power skills because it's. You have power that you don't even know that you're utilizing when you really invest in that connection piece. But if, let's say that you start every. You start here and your client starts here, or your competitor starts here, and you work on your communication, interpersonal skills, you're coming up to here, right? And so everybody would think that that would make life a whole lot easier, when in reality, it probably makes your life harder because you are now a better communicator, but that person's still down here. So there's more of a gap for you to close between you and your client, which is, like you said, it's either a responsibility or an opportunity because now there's an awareness of, oh, I might have to do a little bit More of the work. I might have to meet you further down the bridge or further across the bridge, but at least I know that there's a bridge that needs to be crossed as opposed to we're staying on both of our opposite ends, and nobody is willing to budge.

I love it. Love it. Okay, so, Ms. Ali, this has been amazing, and thank you so much for pouring into me, into. Into my community. I really appreciate it. So I'll leave you with this last question because I want to be mindful of your time. So last question is, what is the number one question that you love to answer but rarely get asked?

I love that question. You know, I think one question. I actually don't love to answer this question, but I think it's the most important question that we should all be asking ourselves, and I don't think that we talk about it enough is where am I the problem? Because we, as coaches and leaders, we are so in this fix it mindset, often of other people and of problems. We like to jump in and get our hands dirty and. And. And, you know, fix things for people. And we've talked about why that might not serve us in the long run anyway. But I think at the end of the day, we need to be able to ask ourselves, where am I the problem? Because we're all the problem. We're like, if we say somebody's stubborn, our client's stubborn, or parents are stubborn, they're not willing to exercise. Well, yeah, but where are you stubborn in your life? And I know that I am very stubborn in certain aspects, and I know that I am definitely a problem in many relationships that I have. And I think bringing awareness to that can completely revolutionize the relationship that you have with somebody and with yourself, too. And it's not to. It's not to break yourself down, but it's rather to just bring awareness to the fact that we're all human, even as leaders and as coaches. And if we've taken care of the downside, the upside will. Will take care of itself.

So good and so powerful. You know, it's. It's interesting, and I love that question. And I think that we can also use it, too, in terms of, you know, the positive meaning, you know, if there's something you're admiring about somebody or that you love about someone, wish that you had, where is that? Like, where is that in you? Because you can't recognize it unless it's in you.

Absolutely. It's why the things that we judge people on are often the things that we are insecure. About ourselves. And that, that gives me almost, like, chills to think about because I think about all the people that I've like, not so subtly or maybe subtly been like. Like, that person's so annoying. Or like, God, I can't stand when they do that. And I'm like, I either envy that, that they're able to do that, or I don't have that skill myself, or I truly am just, I'm the problem. It says more about me than it does about that person.

So true. Amen on that. So amazing.

Well, thank you so much.

So good. I loved it. So for those of you who want to learn more about you, go deeper with you, connect with you, what are some of the best places that I can send them?

Well, first of all, I would say artofcoaching.com is where you can find a ton of free resources. Brett has a podcast that he runs for Art of Coaching. Sometimes I co quarterback that with him, so you can definitely catch me there as well. But me personally, I'm on Instagram Kirschner Ali and Twitter Ali Kirschner. So the little double time there, but yeah, it's been a blast.

Thank you, Ali. I appreciate it.

Yeah, thank you.

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