Unlocking Nutrition Coaching Success with Dr. Marc Morris

You're listening to the PT Profit podcast, episode number 363, Unlocking Nutrition Coaching Success with Dr. Mark Morris, the Science and Business behind the Dr. Mark Method. Are you ready? Let's get started.

Hi, I'm Beverly Simpson, former fitness manager turned online personal training business owner. And this podcast is where smart fitness professionals, including trainers and clinicians, discover how to increase increase client performance and movement, package and position their products and services and get out of their own way so that they can increase their revenue to live a life that they love without sleazy sales. Welcome to the PT Profit Podcast.

Welcome back to the PT Profit Podcast. My name is Chris. I work behind the scenes here at B. Simpson Fitness. And today we have an exciting conversation with none other than Mark Morris, the founder of the Dr. Mark method, which is a comprehensive nutrition coaching certification program. So Mark's journey from studying chemistry to launching his successful coaching career is packed with insights into how science and practical application can come together to help coaches create real change with their clients. So whether you're a fitness professional looking to expand your knowledge of nutrition or interested in starting your own coaching business, this episode is filled with actionable strategies and inspiring stories. So stay tuned as Mark dives into his approach to nutrition coaching, how to coach effectively, and how to navigate the business and marketing side of building a successful practice. Are you ready? Let's get started.

What's up, Mark? Thank you so much for joining me on the show today. How are you?

I'm good. How about you? Thanks for having me on. I'm excited to chat.

I'm so excited. I'm doing really well. Right before we hit record, I was just telling Mark about how we had a Jumanji explosion of bugs in my household this weekend. So, oh my gosh, it feels like a Monday, let me tell you. But I'm really excited to be here and I'm super excited to dive in. So with that said, for those of you who have not been introduced to the pleasure of your work, can you share with us a little bit about who you are, who you serve and how you got there?

Yeah, you bet. I'd love to. I, I think my story, I think starts really similarly in terms of got into weight training somewhat young, trying to, you know, improve at high school sports, that kind of stuff. It was like kind of always a science minded kid, but realized, oh man, there's some like, you know, people are taking this stuff seriously. Ended up thinking, well, I could do this as a career. When I went to university, they kind of put me in A program, and I ended up in a chemistry program and kind of just stuck with. Because I. I don't know. I. I don't know. I don't know exactly why, but the people around me were great and that type of thing. But I didn't really feel like I. I totally fit in. But through that time, was still taking weight training really seriously, reading everything I could on online about nutrition and fitness and that type of thing, and realized, well, if I finish this degree, I could go to grad school in nutrition, and maybe that'll be the thing where I can kind of combine my passions and. And see where that would take me. Went to grad school, started with a master's degree in nutrition, realized, hey, the science thing's kind of cool, but it's still, like, I'm not. Like, I'm not using my passion to help people in that type of stuff. And through that process, ended up starting coaching. And this was, like, 2011. I think online coaching is starting to become, like, a little bit popular at that time. Like, it wasn't really a thing yet. I know I definitely didn't get any, like, help and support in an official capacity. I just hung out in the weight room, and people, you know, we just. We just talked and shared, you know, industry secrets and that kind of stuff. But I was like, hey, people are. People want to be coached and that kind of thing. So I started doing that and realized, hey, I could use my credentials and my PhD in nutrition to turn this into a career. So, you know, kind of abandoned the research path and went into coaching full time. And then the last little bit, I coached, you know, over 2,000 clients, that type of stuff, I realized, hey, I want to build out a team to help me do the coaching, and through that process, created a training program for nutrition coaches, but at the same time realized, hey, people are more interested in the certification program than working with me as a client. So that's kind of where I spent my last, I would say, almost like five years of dedicated effort is I've been teaching the Dr. Mark method, which is an online nutrition certification.

Oh, let's dive into that.

Okay, yeah, sure.

Well, I'm super excited to hear about the doctor. The doctor Mark Nutrition Certification. Can you share with us a little bit about what's your approach? What's your style? Like, take us through, like, nuts to bottom, ground up.

Yeah, it'd be almost like we cover the science of nutrition, which I would say most nutrition certifications do, but in the. In the realm of, like, only what we need to know, to apply, to get people results in terms of body composition, athletic performance, overall health, everything that's really in the wheelhouse of a nutrition coach. So we focus on that. It would be taking like, it'd be like taking macronutrient. Macronutrients and metabolism at the university level, which I taught as a, you know, as a professor, but almost I think the college and applied level, like what do we need to do to coach people? Build a business from this like really, really applied aspect. So we go through that. But I think what really is setting us apart is like showing these coaches how to coach people and how to create coaching systems and working through that process as well as how to get clients and what does that look like? And I mean, it took me so long to learn how to apply this stuff and build a business of it because many of us come into this stuff being, hey, I'm passionate about helping others, I want to help others, I want to learn as much as I can. And we realize that, you know, it's not really worth it to be the smartest coach that no one knows about. So we can't overlook that, you know, that business and marketing and sales piece either. So it's trying to going through that within a 90 day process and getting people to a place where they have a paying client and they know exactly what they need to do from start to finish.

Yeah, sure, totally. So I'm curious, you know, in terms of the certification component of how they can actually apply nutrition to their, to their, to their coaching practice, how do you navigate the differences between like, what's in my, you know, what's in my what, what's in my scope of practice?

Amazing. Yeah, that's a big question around nutrition coaching specifically. And I think a lot of, you know, PTs and, and you know, group fitness instructors and all that stuff, it's been drilled into them that's like, hey, nutrition's not mine. That's the role of an RD and like that type of stuff in my view, and I think this is getting clearer by the day, is that nutrition coaching, you're helping someone accomplish a result that they could achieve on their own, but you're going to help them do it in a way that's faster, more effective, as well as not providing anything that's so prescriptive that can get you in trouble in terms of telling them exactly what to eat or at the same time doing any sort of medical therapy where it's, I'm prescribing, you know, nutrition recommendations in the intent to solve a medical diagnosis or even treat that diagnosis. That doesn't mean you can't work with someone that has those things. You're just not coaching them in the capacity to manage them. Um, but everything else is like totally in your wheelhouse. So it's like helping them build a system to be able to do that, which I know so many pts that have been trying to give, you know, nutrition tips and, you know, stuff, you know, between sets. And it just doesn't really land when we can deliver the coaching in an official capacity with our clients and add that, you know, added value service to do those things. It's just, it makes everything, the results better. Our clients, you know, hang around for longer, those type of things. So it's teaching people to do that.

Yeah. And I like to tell my clients to remind them that, you know, hey, these are the fundamentals of nutrition principles that we should have learned in school that we didn't learn. Like everyone teaches you how to diet. No one teaches you how to eat completely.

Completely or just like in, in terms of like the, the, the context of like what matters more and what matters least. I think we're just, we're, you know, bombarded with so many messages around like what we should be doing and stuff, and people still are overlooking like the core components of, you know, why we gain weight and why we lose weight and, and what that looks like. So it's like the things, it's like there's some science involved here and regardless of, you know, what's out there and it's getting people to apply that.

So it's so true. And what I'm curious about too is in the Dr. Mark method essentially is what's your perspective in terms of the best or the, the best approach or the how you teach your clients like for, or your coaches to implement body composition changes in their practice. Like for example, you've got some people being like, you eat keto. You got people being like, you need habits, you got people being like macros only like when we're in inundated with information, how best do you recommend people build out their plans for their clients?

I think I'd be, I'd be remiss to say there's not pros and cons of all of it, because there absolutely is in, in my practice. And what I think is important is that from a results standpoint, which is super important if you're creating an online business and a fitness business, having an objective based approach to this stuff is going to be important because that's gonna allow to coach people effectively. And it's not to say that like habits aren't important, but getting people tracking their nut so they can learn more about it and setting some targets around what they need to be doing on an individual level to achieve a result is going to allow you to coach them effectively, get them to learn more about their food. That doesn't mean that like, you know, when we say track your macros, it needs to be perfect or we're not going to learn through that process. But to me it's like there's two things going on here and this is how we like to teach it. It's like the structure of this stuff is kind of like the checks and balances around someone's like if you're setting someone up on a personal finance budget, it would be like, you know, how much money are you earning? How much are you, like, how much are you spending? Like what do you need to do to be financially healthy is like the structure of this stuff and where you spend your money within that is very much like calories and macros. That is like the checks and balances around what is going to get someone a result. It doesn't mean that's the only thing that matters. What we follow that up is with, is filling that structure with the right habits and action steps to be able to do. Like to be able to, you know, nail that plan and follow things and create some, you know, create some long lasting change. So it's almost like we need both of those things and I, I think we can't overlook either of them within that. I mean there's no reason why people, once you have an idea of what someone needs to be doing to do keto or they prefer like they're like, hey, I, I really do know that based on my experience, I, I, I enjoy eating low carb. I feel better on it. Maybe it's you know, veering on keto, that kind of thing. There's still some scientific principles within that stuff with you know, targets and numbers that you could work with someone, but you don't get there unless you have a fundamental understanding of the science. So to me it's like we need both of these things. But I think for the most part from a coaching perspective and getting people to learn more about their food, they need to, they need to be doing some sort of tracking, especially at the beginning. And I know a lot of times people are like, hey, you know, you need a PhD in this stuff to understand like to you know, track your macros and Stuff I was like, I think you need a PhD not to do this stuff because you need to learn. Like, that's like, how you're gonna actually learn is going through the process of, like, what your food is made of and how it all adds up and how you feel based on, you know, eating to an optimal or adequate protein level. Right? It's like, these are the things that matter.

So how do you recommend someone begin tracking if they've never tracked before in their entire life? What are some of the things that you recommend?

I'm very much a throw you in the deep end kind of person. So to me, it's like all we're doing is using, you know, some sort of a tracking app. Be it. You know, my fitness pal has been around forever, but there's many better options at this point. You know, things like macros, first macro factor, log, eat. Like, there's a bunch of different tracking apps that are great. We're just using a food log to describe what we're eating in the right amounts so we can get some numbers from it. So to me, it's like, you know, just like you were doing with a pen and paper, we're just going to use a tracking app. Um, ideally, what I do and teach in our process is that, like, before you start working with a client, we're going to do an assessment. So we get them tracking for three to five days, ideally with a day on the weekend, because people's, you know, habits typically change. Maybe they're working through a NAT explosion where, you know, everything is, like, all over the place, but three to five days worth of data.

So I got 15,000 steps cleaning my house.

Okay, like that. And probably we're focused on that and not eating as much or whatever. Like, so things change a little bit. But from there, we're taking a look at, you know, through that time, the averages of where someone's at and what that looks like, and then setting some targets based on that compared to where they should be. Not just like, hey, what does the textbook say someone should be eating based on their body weight and activity levels. But it's like, what are they doing right now and where do we want them to be eventually? Or what we think is going to be optimal, and then setting some targets based on that. To me, and what I tell my nutrition clients and the nutrition coaches we train and work with is like, this doesn't need to be perfect right off the bat. Just like any other skill, tracking your food is going to get better and you're going to get more accurate through time. We just got to start doing it and use it as a journal that just happens to have some numbers attached. And from there, we'll start to shoot for numbers through time and kind of go from there. I think the biggest thing is, you know, people are like, hey, they think it's daunting because it's a new skill and a new task, but they don't realize that it is something just like anything else they can get better at.

Mm. So at first, is it just the kcals and macros that you're really looking.

At for the most part? And I think, like, through there, I mean, it's not to say, like, micronutrients aren't important, but I think for the most part, if people are making healthy decisions within that, most of the time, like, a lot of, you know, micronutrient bases are covered for the most part. I would also say, I mean, there's room for us to clearly address, like, water and steps and fiber and. And that type of stuff, but at a, you know, at a introductory level, it's like, let's just focus on the total energy and the macronutrients and kind of go from there.

Got it. So now I'm. I'm curious for your coaches. Right. Like, I. I've seen some of these coaching forums where one of the biggest things they'll say is, my clients had a plateau. What do I do? How do I move through plateaus? So I'm curious, how do you help coaches really basically be discerning through the assessment that they're collecting?

I think the biggest thing is usually. I mean, I love to help our clients, you know, our coaches become detectives around, like, how do we troubleshoot these scenarios and what does that look like? Usually with most problems that were presented, the simplest answer is usually the correct answer, which is, you know, they're at a plateau. Yeah. Maybe, you know, like, for example, if it's a weight loss scenario, maybe they're not truly in a deficit for that long enough. Like, that type of thing. Like, in most cases, that is the case. As a coach, I think your job is. I know a lot of people always want to, like, be tweaking things and changing things. Most plateaus will. People will bust through them when they're, you know, adhering well enough, motivated. Motivated well enough. And that type of stuff. We gotta get, as coaches, people to see why they should stick with things long enough to get through that. That phase. So to me, it's just like teaching, you know, the art of coaching around well, how do I get my client to continue to do the things while we're making some tweaks and keeping them motivated and seeing why it's in their best interest to keep doing what they're doing and, you know, maybe making some small changes to make it more effective? I just did a video, a YouTube video on this where a client came to me after a six week cut and was kind of like, you know, two to three weeks, they were completely stuck. Things weren't changing. I knew that if, you know, she just remained patient, chances are things would move in the right direction. But that can be hard to do when you're frustrated and you don't want to keep doing what you're doing because you don't feel as if it's working right. So sometimes it's just, you know, simple enough of making some small changes, assuring them, which is most of the job, assuring them that things will move in the right direction, keeping them motivated enough to move through it and then kind of go from there. I think some of the more like complicated things that we're starting to see in terms of, you know, hormonal assessments and different things that kind of start to veer on the side of like, not really within scope are just usually over, like usually not necessary and a bit overcomplicated and I would say 95% of situations.

Interesting. Okay, so my question for you is, how long are you really met? Like, what's your, your, your range, I suppose of, of period of time before you decide something is a plateau or not?

That's a good question. I would say usually within, probably, I want to say like within a, within a, like within a few weeks you realize like, someone's not progressing at the level that you think they are. So within like 14 days, you're like, things really haven't moved. But I say within a month you're kind of like at the point where it's like, you know, we would expect, and this is like coaching language at this point, I would expect to have seen things changing. So, like, what. Is there anything I'm missing that could be impacting your progress? And that kind of stuff. Like, that's the stuff I would start to like, dive into and think about and kind of go from there. Now, be it, you know, someone's completely overlooked some aspect of their diet that they aren't factoring in, or, you know, things have been really stressful and starting to impact some of their food habits or that type of stuff, or activity levels and that type of thing. I Mean, this. The client that came to me just, like, had not been moving as much, right. We started tracking steps and realized, hey, you know, she was doing 8,000 calories some days, but you get super stressed out on some days and you don't move tons. And some of Those days were 2000. And, you know, those really. That starts to add up and that type of thing, and maybe you're not feeling as motivated to do the rest of the stuff you typically would do when things are stuck. So I would say in most cases, you should know, you know, within a few weeks if someone's at a plateau and within a month, probably make some changes to keep things moving in that direction.

That's good. So I. I'm curious, you know, what are some. In addition to the plateau, what are some of the common misconceptions that your coaches operate from when dealing with their clients that. That prevent them from actually yielding results for their clients?

I think it's just human nature to always be, like, looking for the thing that we're missing, right? Like, the thing that we've overlooked, the thing that we aren't currently doing, that would be the game changer for us. And, and many times, like, patience is just the name of the game. Like, things, if you. If you are truly, like, weight loss is probably the biggest example just because, like, so many of our clients want to achieve that. But the biggest thing being, like, if you were truly in a calorie deficit and maybe it's not showing up on, like, the scale yet, because that can, you know, that can definitely lead us in the wrong direction in some cases. But chances are, if you were in a calorie deficit and you stuck with the things that you were doing, like, you would see those, like, you would see those changes within two to three weeks, even if feel like they're not happening. So I think the patience is, like, the biggest thing is that people think things aren't working when they truly are. But their clients are going to ask things like, well, am I overlooking this? Should I start doing some fasting? Should I start, like, are my carbs way too high? Should I think about keto? Like, you know, all of a sudden, like, 20 in 2023. Like, I thought the one thing that we could agree on was that, like, fruits and vegetables were good for us, and now that apparently is out the window. So it's like, you know, should I think about Carnivore or something like that? Is it. Is it, you know, those type of things? I. So I think the biggest thing is those Typically are just like, distractions, right. For a lot of people where it's like they think they're missing that and they're not going to do that or they need that type of thing. And in reality, it's just like, moving people in the right direction, keeping them focused on the things that truly matter the most.

But even with a macro, I mean, I'm laughing because I'm like, fruits make you fat. Like, you just open up Instagram and it's like, oh, my gosh. And then, and then maybe my smart coaches will be like, oh, no, the market saturated. And I'm thinking, like, if not you, then who?

Yeah, that's what I think. With a lot of this stuff in terms of, like, people are always like, so, like, a lot of us are so, are so interested and curious about the science and what's truly right and correct about this stuff that we, you know, dive into things like, like nuance and context and all that stuff, when in reality, the people that we need to serve and help, like, they don't even know that the tracking their food is an option yet in most cases, they actually don't think it's a viable thing that could give them the results that they want. Um, so it's, instead of us being like, debating that, you know, what's, what's the best and that type of stuff, it's like, literally just like, let's focus on what people could, they could be doing to do that stuff. Because many of them, like, I, I, the people come up to me all the time and I have conversations with them, they still don't know that it's like a thing that they, like, they're like, oh, I thought I just needed to, like, cut out all my carbs. And I was like, no, not really. Like, let's, let's get a bit closer to this process, right?

Where they think if they track it means they hate their body. Gone down that path as well.

Totally. It doesn't mean, I mean, a lot of us, I think we gotta find that balance between being okay with wanting to change some aspects of, of who we are and what, like, what we're doing and, you know, and move towards healthy. I know the message of, like, being healthy and stuff has probably just been like, it for so many people. It's been like, you need to get leaner. And that's been shoved down our throats, which is not necessarily true. But at the same time, for many of us, just having a better sense of, like, what we could do to improve these things is like, is what's going to be helpful.

Yeah, yeah. Well, and not to mention the fact that, you know, I mean, there's just so many things. Right. If we're going to speak to Instagram specifically. Right. But, but what I mean is that, you know, we also have to take into consideration that you've got visceral fat and there's adipose tissue that is going to be put you at risk for cardiovascular issues. So it's like there are cases where losing fat is going to help you and help your health.

And I mean, I. It's hard to say, like, what. At what point could everyone so individualize? Like, at what point is that harmful? At what point is that damaging? But for many of us, like, moving towards a body fat level that we can maintain most of the time should. It's like, it's, it's a worthwhile endeavor.

And I, you know, I've told my clients too, that it's really not about the diet, it's about the ma. The maintenance. The magic is in the maintenance. Like, if you can sustain here for long periods of time, then you're likely in a good spot.

Totally. Yeah. For sure. And not avoiding, and not avoiding some of those periods that are, you know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't want to use the word restrictive, but like, like the fat loss is a game of compromise to a certain extent. It doesn't mean that you need to be doing that stuff forever. And I think that's okay too. It's like, like excluding or avoiding some things, be it like restricting your food levels, maybe not necessarily certain foods, but restricting your food levels for a period of time to get an intended outcome is not something that like, is, is bad. It's not inherently bad. Right. And it's like as long as we have, like these things go on for periods of time and there's a plan for what happened afterwards and what that looks like and how you maintain that stuff. I mean, that's where the, to me, that that's where the magic is. Right.

So I, speaking of that, I am curious, how long do you have your people tracked?

I would say there's some people. I don't think tracking is something that people need to do forever without a doubt. Like, that's like very clear to me. I think at a point where it's like towards the result that they're working towards and then we start phasing out some elements of control. Right. Where it's like, you know, there's different ways that we personally teach to do it in Terms of, like, you know, getting to mindful eating. Obviously, as we get closer to that, we don't abandon how we feel while we're tracking, but as we get closer to a goal, we start to focus more on how we're feeling, what that looks like, and start to plan in things and activities where it's like, moving away from tracking. So to me, one of my favorite exercises is like, hey, you know, if you're. If your tracking app was down for a day and you had no access to the Internet, like, how would you eat? What would that look like? Chances are it's not all that much different than what you would be doing. You know, with the tracking app, you're just going to use the numbers less. You're going to rely on them less through that process. So start to remove some of that control and kind of go from there. But for most of my clients, I would say, like, we should probably spend a good, you know, three to four months in a true phase of doing this stuff before we start removing some elements of control and moving closer to mindful eating practices. With that being said, when someone has different goals and maybe things change, there's no reason why they can't revisit tracking and get back to it through phases. Right? Would be the biggest thing. And I, I don't think, to me, it's like, if someone asked me right now, it's like, do you have 12 weeks to get in the best shape of your life? I wouldn't just rely on how I feel through that process. I'd probably get closer to the numbers again. Right. And that kind of thing. So maybe there's a different goal, a performance goal. Now the dogs are going crazy, but something along those lines that we can just focus on for a period of time, get back to track and go from there. It doesn't mean that you have to abandon it forever.

So this leads me to my next question is, you know, you mentioned phases. What are. What are. What's a typical. Like, let's just. Since we're on the topic of fat loss, what's a typical fat loss phase program that you go through? Do you have moments of, like, diet breaks? Like, what's, what's your typical. What do you typically recommend?

I think for most people, like, especially, especially if someone's looking at, you know, they're like, let's say they're a hundred pounds. In their own View, they're 100 pounds overweight. It's like breaking that up and. And thinking about, like, I gotta do this for a Hundred weeks, like, can be extremely overwhelming. Right. It can be one of those things where it's like, like, I, I can't do that. And I think the science is starting to show us that there's probably some merit to number one, breaking that up and not truly being in a calorie deficit for that period of time, because can be more effective through that period of time. But I think in terms of, like, what is that answer for how long people should be doing this stuff? I think, I think the art to this stuff is like, probably breaking things up, like no more than 12 weeks, 16 weeks, upwards of like, you know, at 20 weeks of being in a deficit or that kind of thing. We're thinking about. Most people would be, if they start, I would say, mildly overweight. If they did things, they'd be, you know, stage lean, almost like they don't need to be doing that and that type of thing, but breaking things up. But also just, I would say factoring in planning in life to some of these, like, diet breaks or whatever it is, is probably the best way of approaching it from both a, you know, personal standpoint, but also a coaching standpoint. Whereas, like, let's plan like you're gonna take vacation and stuff, and like, let's like, you know, ramp up and work into that as being like your, your quote, unquote diet break if there's more fat to lose or, or if, you know, you're gonna get back to it in that sense and kind of going from there. But I think at, you know, generally at that, like, 12 to 16 week point, people could probably stand to use a break from both a mental and physiological standpoint if there's more to lose.

Yeah. So I'm also curious, when you let them take a break, are they still tracking?

Yeah, they're really. In terms of the individual, I would say most people that have been tracking for that long now have a sense of how they need to be eating to at least maintain the results that they made. And we can, you know, start to just focus on, you know, some general guidelines for that period, as opposed to tracking, you know, consume 20 to 30 grams of protein every time you eat, focus on including a fruit and, or vegetable eating until, you know, 80% full, not avoiding anything like that. That would be the type of things that I would be recommending to people while they're on a diet break, as opposed to just saying like, track to maintenance and kind of go from there. I think, you know, as great as getting close to the numbers are, it can be, you Know, exhausting at times and tire you out. So to me, it's almost like having a break from that too is important and just being a bit more mindful. And I mean, like, life is short. We do take vacations. It should be a break from what we're normally doing. So it's like setting up enough structure so that someone doesn't just like, completely fall apart while being, you know, kind to ourselves and finding a bit of balance is probably the best approach.

I love that. Now, you did mention that, like, a lot of the hormonal factors that people are tend to be obsessed with, especially in the Internet. You mentioned that it's like 95% is just essentially, like, basically it's just 5% outliers. What about things like perimenopause, PCOS and like, all these hormonal things? You had mentioned that a lot of them, you, you mentioned that it's likely the outlier and not the main cause for like. Yeah, some components. So can you expand a little bit more on that?

Well, I mean, if we think about, like, perimenopause is going to be like, I would say, like, that's a normal life event as opposed to some of those other hormonal situations. Hormonal situations. It doesn't mean in that situation that, like, it's almost like when some of these factors start to add in that make it more difficult. I think it doesn't mean that, like, something like fat loss, for example, isn't possible. Right. Which I think in some scenarios we've either been like, led to believe or thinking that, like, this is what we're up against and things need to be entirely different. When in my perspective, in my experience and what I believe the science shows is that, like, it just makes it harder. Would be the. Would be the biggest thing.

Yeah. So. And I do want to. I do. Can you speak specifically to how harder? Because what I tend to find, and I'll, I'll explain why I'm saying this is because people think, oh, I have this experience, whatever this experience means. Therefore the principles don't pertain to me. And it's like, wait, no, how you eat still pertains to you. It's just gonna look different than say, when you were 20 or look and feel different than, say, you know, that whenever, for sure.

I even think, okay, like, let's say me as being like a mid-30s male that isn't experiencing any fluctuations with that kind of stuff. Even when I've been through fat loss phases and stuff, like, each time is different. And, and there's still scientific principles going on, but, like, things that worked before don't work in the same sense. And it could be due to a variety of different things. And this is like the most straightforward, I have no excuses type of angle. Right. Like, there just isn't any. But now let's like, add in a bit more complications around changing hormonal levels on a monthly basis as well as like, you know, moving towards menopause or something like that. Um, would be the biggest thing. It's like now you have like, sleep's much more impacted. Like, there's so many things like, you know, symptoms around. Around those hormonal changes and stuff make everything harder. It doesn't mean that it's not like that eating more protein in most cases is important and, you know, being like, kind to ourselves in, in some situations and going with those principles aren't important. It's just like, it's just going to make it more difficult to a certain extent would be. Would be the biggest thing. So. And a lot of times it's like what worked before might not work in the same sense. And maybe what we need to shoot for is like a little bit different as well would be the biggest thing. Yeah.

Oh, I love that. So now I'm curious, how many people have you worked with, who. And your coaches, who they work with? Like, how do you navigate? We, we talked a little bit about, you know, medical components and that we're not registered dietitian in that way. But what about disordered eating styles? Like, sometimes people don't have a eating disorder, what would be clinically classified as an eating disorder, but they do have patterns of disordered eating and like, is around tracking and. And they do have tendencies of that, that that could be dangerous to their mental and physical health. How do you navigate that those types of situations? As a nutrition coach, I think the.

Biggest thing being it's tough, right? Because not that there's like a line in the sand around like disorder, eating and eating disorder, but there is like a clinical diagnosis of one. And in. I would say it's almost like when we move over to this, to this place, there's been. There's some people in those scenarios that like, maybe had problematic pasts that revisit something like the objective side of nutrition and do fine and can be empowered by it. There's others that absolutely not. Like, this is like. I mean, it's getting to a sense of who this individual is and what they're doing and that kind of stuff. I think I'd also like to mention that, like, as a coach, when someone approaches you with this scenario and that type of stuff, I also think we've been kind of educated to be like, this is outside of my scope. I'm not touching it. Like, don't like. Which I think isn't really fair to the individual that's looking for help either. I think that doesn't. Just because you're not going to work with someone and take their money doesn't mean that you can't help and support them and point them in the right direction around, like, what they could be doing. Be it like, you know, create a bridge around a new relationship or point them in, you know, like, refer them to somewhere else and that type of thing. I think we've been been told it's like, hey, this isn't for you. And like, avoid that like the plague kind of thing. I was like, I think that's exactly the opposite of why we got into this business. It's like helping people. Now with that being said, though, like, people that have, like, maybe are showing or exhibiting signs of like, disordered eating, that kind of stuff, in my experience, when they start to get more objective and like, look at their food somewhat differently and realize, you know, what's. What influences this process the most. There's the most. There's a lot of people that like, end up doing better because of it. In a lot of cases now, there's some that, like, through that process are like, you know, this isn't for me. I'm starting to think about this way. Maybe I'm becoming too fixated on it and that type of stuff. Like, it's not. The tool isn't empowering me to live my best life and improve my health at that point. It's like, okay, this isn't for you. And we have to have that, you know, that conversation and that type of stuff. But for many, just because, you know, they're, they're. They came into this process, viewing that food that way doesn't mean that it's like, absolutely automatically not for them would be the biggest thing. Because I've seen in so many cases where people have like, you know, have that like, almost like diet rules passed where, you know, food is. There's some foods that are automatically off limits and kind of bad, and then they're sort of like, hey, man, I can eat ice cream. Because I started to get more objective about this and I can just be a as lean if not get better results. So it's like, hey, that person was kind of Exhibiting, you know, maybe problematic behavior before. But then use tracking as a tool that's intended to actually get to a better place. So it depends on the individual and where they're coming from. But I think as a coach you want to get close to that process and start to have open communication around where they're at and how they view these things as well as, you know, trying to be in tune with how they're describing the process through check ins and that kind of stuff too. So you can kind of pick up on, you know, is there anything here that I need, that I need to be mindful of? Because it's not in this best person, this person's best interest.

So. Good. I love that. It's, it's the art of coaching essentially. It's how you start to learn about, you know, your clients. And there's things that people say and things that people mean, you know.

Sure. It's being able to like, just kind of like recognize that stuff and some of the signs and signals and that type of stuff. And I think it is my experience and obviously like, I'm an advocate for like tracking. So I, I know there's like, I, I know I have biases around that for sure, but I think for most people, like I, they've never been shown that there's a subjective side of things. They're still thinking that like they eat certain foods and all of a sudden it's like, you know, the light, like the world stops spinning and the lights go off and it's like this. That's bad, right? And it's like, no, there's like, there's more to this. And through this process you could get a better sense of like, what that actually is and not be fearful of it. So to me that's like, that has a lot of merit.

Yeah. So I, I'm also curious too. Speaking of like cutting out, they're like, oh, I'll just cut out all my carbs. But. And with all like the different diet approaches, even within your macro approach, what is your typical style that you usually start with? Like, are you cut, are you lowering your, your client's carbs intake? What do you, what, what are your balances? What are you doing?

I think you should. My personal belief and this, I've done like thousands and thousands of assessments is like, what, what are they currently doing? And getting a sense of those averages based on their goals and what they're trying to accomplish. Like, what are some, what we assume to be, you know, optimal in terms of like, do they have A fat loss goal? Is it muscle gain? Is there a performance goal? Like, what type of activity are they doing? Is it strength based? Is it endurance based? A mixture of both. And then from those, like, averages and what they're currently doing, compare them to what we think would be optimal and setting some targets based on that. Now if someone comes to me and they're already enjoying eating low carb and they feel good on it, like, that's not the hill I'm gonna die on. I'm just gonna make sure that, like, their protein's where it needs to be and the calorie balance reflects where they wanna go. And start to set some numbers based. Based on that. And I think where a lot of people go wrong, and I like. I like to almost think about, like, the textbook approach, we'll call it, or textbook coaches, where it's like, you know, this is what this textbook said I should be doing what would be optimal. And I tell them to do that and they end up gaining a bunch of weight. Like, what am I doing wrong? And it's like, there's a difference between what someone should be eating and what the report that they're eating. And I think the art of this stuff is like, finding a way that navigates that and gets them where they need to be going. So it's like setting some numbers based on that. I obviously would always like to think, okay, we are prescribing numbers, but that doesn't always mean that, like, that reflects their food choices as well. So it's like factoring that stuff is too, based on what we're seeing and setting some targets based on that.

Yeah, yeah. I. Well. And I'm also curious about the I'm fine coma, because what happens to a lot of people is they're like, I'm great on low carb, but are they really right? They think that they are, but. But they don't realize how good it can actually be if they just, like, ate a vegetable.

Yeah, well, I'm almost, I think as someone that views themselves as, like, I would say a harm reductionist, it's like you to me, to get that place where someone's eating more carbs for me to, you know, say right off the bat that we're. We're bumping these up isn't really the best approach for building, like, trust and rapport. So it's almost like, let's start here. And then once, you know, you're feeling a certain way, it's like, I start to dangle, like, hey, you know, chances are you'd feel like your performance would increase quite a bit and you'd feel a lot better if we just added in, you know, another like 40, 50 grams of carbs around your workouts. Like, are you open to trying that? And they're like, you know, yeah, let's give it a try, let's do that, that type of thing. It's like now, before you know it, it's like they're moving in that direction, direction I feel a lot better and that kind of thing. I remember being a competitive powerlifter and coaching a lot of people in powerlifting. Like, one of the things that we've always been told is like, you shouldn't cut weight for your first powerlifting meet. Just like go and lift. Because it's a weight class sport, right? A lot of people have lifers in this stuff. They want to do a meet, they want to maybe hit a, the local, state or provincial record and then they want to just see what's what, that kind of thing, right? For me to be like, don't cut weight. When someone's like, should I cut weight? They're not asking me if they should cut weight. They're looking for approval around this idea that they have. And they probably would be at a better place if I could just like, you know, kind of coach them through it in the best, you know, science based way they could. And then they realize, hey, there's more to this, right? There's like, you know, maybe I should think about this differently or that kind of thing. That to me is how we get people to ultimately do things that are in their best interest. It's not just telling them no right off the bat.

It's so good. It's so good. I'm also curious about your opinion on supplementation.

I, I have a different, I think I have a different opinion on supplementation than most, obviously textbook definition of supplements. Like, we use it to like supplement a healthy diet and fill in holes and that kind of stuff. I'm also of the belief that there's probably three things going on here. Like when we take a supplement, like, is it effective? Like, does it do the thing that we actually wanted to do? Is it safe? Like, is it going to harm someone in terms of like taking, you know, the normal dose or like more than they should be taking? That kind of thing. And then like, do they enjoy taking it? Like, what does it do for them? Off paper would be the biggest thing in most cases. Like for me, the three things, like, as long as we tick two of these boxes in most cases, I'm like, if someone leaves a supplement store with $200 worth of stuff and they're pumped up about training and they're gonna make better food decisions, I'm like, that is not the hill I'm gonna die on. Telling them that things aren't quote unquote, not necessary for them to take will be the biggest thing. So it's like to me, someone's like, hey, should I take this? Like, you know, let's say I'm trying to think. For example, obviously things like creatine protein supplementation within someone's protein targets like caffeine. I've like great, you know, like one like those things. I'm like, by all means do this stuff. Things that aren't like that are, you know, a bit more promising or we don't have tons of evidence on like if someone leaves the supplement store with a bunch of branch hand amino acids and they now want to like exercise and hydrate and that kind of stuff, I'm like, not the person who's gonna be like you, those are a waste of money. Like don't take those. The biggest thing especially, cause we know like so many people are don't eat enough protein to begin with. But to me it's like, hey, chances are that thing is not gonna be the thing that moves the needle for you, especially when compared to eating enough protein. But if you wanna take them, by all means, like it's probably worth a try, you might, you know, feel a bit better, you might not get as sore, would be the biggest thing. So to me it's almost like always assessing where is this person coming from? If it's not harmful for them to do, is it the hill that I'm going to die on pending? They're still doing, you know, they got all the big rocks in place that they need to be doing and they're not avoiding, you know, doing enough training and eating well and that kind of stuff. That's kind of where I come from with supplements.

It's good, it's good, good. I love it. I love, I love it.

I just, I don't, I don't think, I don't think we get people to do the things we want them to do or are in their best interest by just constantly telling them no. And I think there's been kind of like this almost nihilistic like worldview and like especially with science based training and nutrition that's like none of this matters. This is the only thing that matters. And I think at times that can Be, I don't know, a bit dampening. Like, it just kind of, like, doesn't leave us much to get excited about.

Well, it's interesting. I. I tend to. And I. I noticed this in myself, right? Is that I think that there's this correlation between people's dogmatic approach to their years of being a coach. And I found that the more dogmatic people tend to be, myself included, is that they just have a very narrow level or a very narrow focus just based on their ages of coaching, their years of experience, and the more someone gets more advanced in their coaching years, they're also. All it means is that they've just been likely exposed to so many different types of experiences that they're. That their narrow approach gets challenged and they have to go for a different approach. So that. That's what I noticed in myself.

Do you notice. Did. Do you feel like. Do you feel like children accelerated that process in terms of like. Like, we just got to show up and get this done type of view? Like, do you feel like. It's almost like I, I would maybe, like, I was trying to control certain things before, and now it's like, I just got time for this, I gotta do what I gotta do kind of thing. Like, do you feel like that factored into. Like, if you're talking about your. Yourself in a period of time, I.

Mean, it's a fair question. And I'll just share from. From. For me and for my experience, I think that my children who are nine and seven, they. They. They exposed my greatest weaknesses as a coach in so many different factors, right? It's like I. They became my greatest teachers. I learned so much from becoming a parent in how I coach, because it was like, not only did they really demonstrate the art of skill acquisition, right?

Have you.

If you've ever watched a toddler learn how to walk, it's the most fascinating thing, right? It's like, yeah, they cry sometimes, but they. They fall. They fall down so many times, so much, so much more, and yet they never quit, right? So that's like, one experience of it. The second experience of it was like, oh, my gosh, you are a tiny human and I cannot control you despite the fact that I want to.

Totally. Yeah, completely. I remember this being like, there's a. There's been a few key moments of, like, where I took a step back and reflected on things, like just some experience in life where I was like, man, maybe. Maybe some things that I thought matter don't matter at all to this process. I remember, like, getting really into nutrition and fitness and thinking about like, you know, I was like 19 years old, trying to control the anabolic window and making sure that I needed to get protein, you know, in within 30 minutes of training and that kind of thing. And I started training with a group of guys that were like champion powerlifters that have been deadlifting every Friday for like literally 30 years, as heavy as they could, every Friday. And I remember they used to go back, like it was this garage gym. They would go back after the session and they started drinking Coors Light. And I'm like thinking of like, like I started lifting with them. I'm thinking like, what, what, what am I missing here? Cause like, these guys are super strong. They've been doing it forever and this is what they do after training. Like, aren't they afraid that like, you.

Know, they're going to miss the window?

Exactly. Yeah. It's like where there's a window. I was like, exactly. So to me, I was like, oh man, like there's something else to this, right? Would be the biggest thing. And I just remember when like, you know, becoming a parent and that kind of stuff and thinking about trying to control for so much stuff in my own stuff that like now I was like, I just gotta show up and get this done and keep doing it for long enough. And that's how these things change for the most part. So it's like, I don't know, this is a life experience that kind of give you a different perspective on things.

It does. And it also, it also changes your like, hey, this talk about needing different perspectives, talk about needing a different approach because. And then when you have two, it's like, now you've got one kid needs this and this kid, it's like, wait, you came from the same set of parents? Oh, how is that possible?

Yeah, without a doubt, Without a doubt. It's crazy.

So crazy. Anyway, so thank you so much for pouring into me, pouring into us. For those of you who want to learn more about, you know, your, your certification, working with you, going deeper with you, what are some of the best places that I can send them?

Yeah, there's probably two best places. If you're like, hey, this sounds like something I need to be a part of and I'm interested in nutrition coaching and it sounds great. We do have our certification program. It's a 90 day program. Enrollment's going to open up in the next few weeks. You can go to drmarkmethod.com program to check out all the details and what it does for you and what that looks like and get start the process of getting involved be the first thing and that's me R C too. I'll just say that just because that to throw people off. But if you're just like, hey, I want to learn more about what's going on here. We've put so much time and Energy into our YouTube, we release two new videos each and every week. And you can find that at YouTube backslasher Mark Method.

Okay, cool. And we'll be sure that we link all that up in the show notes.

Cool. Yeah, absolutely.

Thanks so much. I really appreciate it.

No problem. Thanks for having me on.

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