All-In-One or All Wrong? The Platform Dilemma | E2 - Hard Refresh - An ISSA Podcast

Sam. Welcome back, everyone. Super excited to be here today. We've got another hot debate between Karina and I schedules because last one was that maybe not. But we also got some awesome things coming up, so we're going to dive right into Quick Control. Karina is going to take it away and share all the amazing things that are coming.

Yes. And just to remind everybody, we had a quick debate about is it cash or cache? And I was wrong. It's not cachet. And so my apologies, but I stand corrected. And that's okay. It's part of growing. You have to understand that you make mistakes. Okay. So for the Quick Control segment, we are so thrilled to have Junith from. He's actually the CEO and co founder of Zan Compute in our next episode, which is titled the Smart Building Blind Spot. Sand Compute's always been a leader in this space and having them come and really shed light at the things that they're working on and also things that they're hearing in the industry and friction points and so really great episode. I'm excited about that. We're also continuing on with our clx. As most of you know, we had the CLX during the show in Vegas. And a CLX is essentially what we've done is it's our flagship event for the Technology and Innovation Committee. We focus on teaching. So the first part of this series is a thought process of actually education groups and having more tactical conversations and adapting that technology or adapting that skill that you've learned. And so what we've decided is we're going to do it once a quarter and the first one is going to be on March 25th. And the description of this podcast, you'll have a link to sign up because it is going to be capped at 40. So you'll want to sign up as soon as possible and then that way you'll have insight into the next clxis, which we're going to do three virtual and then again at the show we'll do the last in person. So we're looking forward to that. And the topic for this CLX is artificial intelligence obviously continues to be a hot trend and subtopics that we're exploring. AI for the CMB and AI for beginners. So we're going to thread in some, a couple different ones, but we're super jazzed about it and I think that's it. Did I get everything clx?

Yeah, that's what's coming up. The quick backstory on the clx. Tony over at Core America president, um, he's the one that brought it. And you know, really. And he'll be on the show in a couple weeks after this episode. But the idea of a cohort learning experience, if you haven't ever participated in one before, it was really cool to be a part of it because it's not sitting in a lecture hall of here's what you should be doing. It's like, hey, we're gonna sit down and we're gonna break you out into groups of six people. And you have six other people in operations or whatever their role are to say, hey, here's how I'm doing it. Here's where we sucked, here's where we failed, here's where we succeeded. Hopefully you're leading more with successes, but we also learn from each other's failures. So that's. That's the funnest part is it's not a theory of a lecture. It's like, nope, we didn't realize this would happen when we hit start and it started on fire or whatever it is. Like, so, you know, those are the things that shared experiences and it's social, it's fun.

Yes.

They're meant to be that. So even though it's virtual, we also.

Heard from the audience at the show and everyone was really positive feedback about the way that it was programmed and just the engagement. And so that's why we're really using that to become this flagship for us because super successful. And hats off to Tony and his team as they sponsored that event, but also his stewardship in leading this initiative. I'm super excited to be able to carry this through for the year and expand on it because people are waiting for us. We're going to get this going.

Yeah. So with that, we are going to move into clearing our cash on thinking. And Karina, go ahead and share our topic headline for our discussion.

This is a good one, guys. This is a question I get all the time. I actually just got this maybe less than a week ago. So topic is. Is all in one or all wrong? The platform dilemma. So are you going to choose an all in one platform or. Or is that the wrong approach?

It's a tough one. Obviously, as years of experience in sitting on both sides, I've tried to be both sides to the industry and we've gone back and forth. And the more you're back and forth between going all in one versus trying to specialize, the more time we. We ended up wasting. So with this, I. I think I want to start with. Sometimes I get jealous. I'll be honest I get jealous of an all in one tool.

Okay.

So. And the reason is, is because in an all in one tool, usually you're in a much simpler setup. You're trying to solve a lot of problems, you're trying to make them cohesive. Right. You're, you're building an interface that's the same, you know, the user experiences as well. As long as you're doing it right, it's going to be cohesive and correct. Right. And so sometimes I get jealous of someone who chose the all in one path to be everything. And it only lasts for like 10 minutes.

Yeah.

Because then I realized, hey, there's longer term problems down the road. So I guess to position our discussion today, we're going to be talking to people that are trying to scale operations, facility operations. Right. And this is really where this dilemma comes in. Because SMB, you can treat SMB very different. You're a small business mom and pop shop. I want a tool that I can just. I'm the cleaner and I'm the owner at night. So we'll talk to you guys in the future, maybe more specifically. But today's episode is like, let's talk about technology and the idea of where software is at, specifically of this concept. So, Karina, what are your experiences between this debate?

So I was in the residential space first, right. So I was a business owner in that space. And then I migrated to the commercial industry, still having my own business. And so I get it. I remember using a product called Service CEO and it was an all in one. And from that perspective, we were at that $.3 million in revenue from the residential and the all in one made sense, right? It had email marketing. It had, it was the thing of beauty, to be very honest. Like Service CEO at that time, I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread. It was incredible. So email marketing, batch processing of different functions of this crystal report feature, which was the analytics, it also did scheduling, time and attendance, the whole thing that you could possibly imagine. And what I learned from that experience was, and you said this earlier, when it comes to like a platform partnership, you're really going through and I'm going to butcher it. But acquisition, retention and what?

Expansion.

Expansion. And so from a BSC's perspective, I remember going through with my sales rep and my partner from Service CEO and they really were guiding me through scaling with the different features and functions of this platform. So it made a lot of sense. And because it's all integrated, it almost unlocked the paths to scale based on where I Was so like email marketing allowed me to uncover batch processing and then I could, you know, reduce. I went. I remember going from a team, an admin team of like five to three in 60, 90 days. Less than 90 days, actually, it's probably closer to 60 because we unlock batch processing. At that time, they were doing manual credit cards one by one. It was excruciating. It was like 55 credit cards daily that they were doing one. So batch processing for us was like the best thing. So all is to say, from a BSC's perspective, from 0 to 3 million, an all in one made sense to your point, right? It did, it made sense. But then what happened was we grew and the level of depth of a tool really wasn't there anymore. And so then to your point, I started looking through how can I use other tools or how can I go to the market and understand what I can use from a tech perspective and innovation perspective, because then I can sell that to my clients and show them like, I'm using this amazing tool. And. And I'm always a firm believer. You can't do everything great. You can do one thing really great, but not everything. So my thought process really changed and it was all in ones really are. Some do it really well, but most don't. And so I would say all in one is not for me. I think it's all wrong. Bold.

Yeah. We had prior to. So I stepped into executive leadership in 2016, 2017, and these were the things that I was kind of plagued with because our messaging, I mean, us as a company, we sold as an all in one. And we tried to say, hey, we're an all in one. And. But then people would come to us being like, so, so do you have CRM? Like, do you do anything like that? And do you have HR management of employees? And I was like, okay, well, we're. Then we're not an all in one. So. And the reality is, is that I don't know of very many businesses today that use one platform for everything. And it's for that same, that same reason is you start scaling and you start realizing, like, I need something special in my process here.

Yes.

And so then you start like building this mindset of like, all right, well, we use like, I can't even count how many software tools we use in our business from, from sales, marketing, product development support, probably over two dozen, honestly.

Right.

That are different tools for different things. And you know, we aren't. It's just, it's. It's one of those things that it's just, it is what it is and that's where we're at. So there are, but there are things that you can take batches of software, right, and try and make them more all in one and specialty. But the reality is, is like when you're trying to make this decision, it becomes a lot easier if you do the prep work of what am I trying to accomplish?

Right?

Because if you're, if you're going to come and sit down and say, all right, I want email marketing, right. I want leads flowing in this way into this system. And even then there are systems that are separate lead capturing and marketing finding systems versus the CRM.

Right?

Right. So then how do those integrate to each other? So I, I get the want and desire to be an all in one, right? Because people are like, oh, I'm moving from this system now I'm in this system and anytime you add a break, you're at the risk of losing data. And I think that's the argument here is the more systems I have, the more complex and risk I am at of having data not transfer and missing the whole story. So I'm not advocating for like, so let's go create all in ones. But, but I think that's, that's the problem is people. I was, I'll give this quick experience. I was on a call about a month ago and this happens all the time. This is the last time it was like really brought up in depth. Someone's like, well of course I would love it to be all one platform and it can do everything. He's like, but that's not a real expectation I should ever have. And I was just like, but the fact that you like want it and love it means that there's kind of an expectation there that maybe one day, I don't know, maybe AI is going to solve that.

Right?

I don't know. So it's just, it's one of those things that for me the clarity to choose depends 100% on your business, what stage you're at. Eventually you want the best tool for the job. And I think that should be the mindset.

Right?

And technology is going to continually evolve and develop. So maybe that someone's going to prove us wrong and say, hey, there's an all in one system that can do it. But maybe the debate isn't so much about that is as long as you're leading with this is the best tool to do this part of the process and then your job should be more focused on how do I get that to Integrate into the next step, which you love talking about, Karina.

I love it. Well, so it's funny when you're talking through this, I'm thinking the Pioneer example, right? So Pioneer built a fully integrated service platform. And one of the things that I always struggled with in the beginning was like, why would you use another platform if you have a tech team in house, right? Like, you have a senior developer, you have a VP of technology, why would you use a HubSpot? Why would you use any other tool? Like, let's just build it. And so Chase always pushed back on it and he was like, I'm not going to be Quora will never be an all in one, because why would you build something that already exists on the market that's far superior? And so that really challenged my thought process too, is like, you shouldn't have to build from scratch, but you should be able to build, build on something that can play well with others. And that means that you can integrate with any other system. And so when you're choosing a product, a platform, anything, understanding the level of integration that's feasible becomes super critical. So you can have almost like a pseudo light of all in one. Right? Because it's like kind of create this all in one solution, but you're actually using different environments, but you can get creative. And especially where tech is going right now, I think there's a lot that can be done to support an all in one concept, but just not putting all of your eggs in one basket. And the companies again, like that are doing it, they do do it well. Like they're, they are doing it well. But when it comes to platform optimization, I would argue that those that are niche, that have had success in a specific subject matter, those are the ones that are really leaning into a dynamic data infrastructure. Dynamic and a more evolving feature set. Like it feels more innovative. Those ones that are actually specific to their skill set because it's like that's something only thing that they do. And so they're really laser focused, like in a Tuvi. Like, I know you guys are super laser focused. Shameless plug. No big deal. Just kidding. No, I was not paid by Kaden to say that. No. But it allows you to really be focused on your skill set. These are the things that you guys are passionate about. So you're not almost like distracted with a CRM and a bidding tool. It's like, no, this is what we're doing and this is. It goes to our mission and our core values and it goes into our roadmap and it's like intentionality, I think is what I'm kind of articulating.

Yeah, well, like something you just said fascinated me is just the idea that if you can get really good at what you do and make sure that you can be a part of the puzzle. Like, so these are current learning experiences as, as a software company. The fascinating thing is, is when we started, there was only a few of us around 22 years ago. Right, right. For the, for the cleaning industry. And I remember we would go to Issa and like I look back and I'm just like, man, I feel so bad for everyone who just had to live through those moments of exploring technology, those first go arounds. Cause it was just like everyone was trying to be an all in one. Right. Because it was so new and compared to where we were at last. Issa, with well over a dozen different software companies throughout the show floor geared towards similar problems. Like, I get so excited, I love the fact and, and I hope our competition would say the same thing. Like, I'm friendly to the other founders, like I love collaborating with them because what it does for me as a, as a tech provider is it opens up the window of us becoming like every other technology sector in the planet, which is a cohesive, integrated environment and coming to people and say, hey, you have options to choose the best here, the best here, the best here. And as long as, and this is where we're, we're getting to, right. We're realizing that now's the, now we have options in front of us. So we're super heavy focused right now on making sure like our vision, our vision statement as a company is to achieve indispensability among every service provider's tech stack. So that means, it doesn't mean we've achieved it today, but it means that's our guiding North Star. How do we make sure that our tools and processes, along with our competition, along with complimentary tools, can all achieve indispensability for the right service provider to say, I love this about this process, this is my competitive advantage and this is how I'm packaging this whole beautiful concept together and this is how I go and deliver. And I love that I told this to our, our product team yesterday or on, on, on Friday, I was just like, I believe in the long term future, the goal, theoretically the goal is that the administration and management of the back office of a company can be handled by one person. Yeah. Because of AI and the tools, that the AI does it all for you. So one day, you know, instead of having IT teams and all of that. You just have someone that needs to master the connection between all these automated systems and you should eventually get there.

Your proclamation, one day my dream is.

It'S recorded on episode two of the Hard Refresh. Kaden Hutchins said, one day we're gonna. But I, but that's what I just believe eventually we're gonna come to is the desire for all in one is simplicity of management.

Yes.

No one, no one really wants to admit that. Well, this all in one tool is the best at everything. What they agree to is they say, okay, here's our number one and number two, pain, and it solves these well. And I'm compromising on the rest.

Yes.

Right. And we don't want people to compromise. But if it's just not the best for you, how do we make sure that the two things we solve well are integrated into your workflow? Yeah, because for some, maybe we are used at its full capacity of what we're used for. But. But that's just my mindset of where technology can head and should head is there's going to be leaders in certain strengths that I think eventually will all come together in that collaborative build out of making sure that the best of the best is used for your circumstance wherever you're at, and you're entitled to an opinion and your processes and however that shakes out. But at the end of the day, I think each of us will thrive and survive this evolution of technology if we learn how to take the customers that exist amongst the people that we serve and say, hey, how do we solve the problem best here? All right, well, we're not the best here. So my recommendation is actually go to this competitor that does this better and here's how we integrate with each other and we can pass data to each other to make you the customer, the focus of solving the problem the best for.

Well, and that's what I was like leaning into in terms of collectively, I think we can all agree that we're. Our goal is to serve our clients. Right. And so we need to be able to, from your words earlier, like create a simple connecting point that we can use everything from all of the different platforms, all the different offerings, whether it be an all in one or multiple options, we gotta be able to paint a picture of what's happening and therefore growing within that partnership or expanding in new opportunities with clients. But ultimately that's what we need and that's what we want. And so I think that's one of the things that oftentimes gets a little bit lost when you're selecting these products or trying to think through a strategic approach in innovation. Like, what is going to yield a stronger partnership with a client, with your client base, and how do you grow based on that? Like, what are they looking for? Because that should really take a factor in the type of difficulty of a platform, the type of engagement tools, analytics, impressions. Like, if your clients are really leaning into tech and they want to see that type, that should be a factor. And I think oftentimes we are so focused on creating or rather adapting tech that makes our lives easier, we miss certain factors that should really drive the decision of what tech we're using, how we're using. And the other thing I will say I love, I think again, going to the intentionality behind the tech and Innovation committee always was to bring all of us to the table so that we can collaborate. And to your point about competitors, for us, we grow stronger because we have each other and we can bounce things off. I remember when I took clean code to market, I would call Tony and I'd be like, hey, Tony, I'm struggling with this and what do I do and how do I do it? And he was always very welcoming and always giving me pointers and kind of pointing me in the right direction. Never wouldn't see, like, well, you're a competitor of mine and I'm not going to give you that insight. And so that feels awesome that we can create this place, this ecosystem, this culture of, hey, check out Atuvi or check out Smart Inspect, or check out like, maybe we're into your point earlier. I think understanding your customers where they're at and understanding like, maybe I'm not the right tool, but maybe Tony's Smart Inspect is, or maybe Route is, or maybe Swept is. Or maybe like, there's a lot of really great companies out in the market. Why not explore all of them and we can all play well with each other.

Yeah. And it's like the concept of like, hey, you know, there's, there's gotta be a moment where everyone aids the, the mindset and the thinking that exists in the industry forward. And like, that's the vision behind the Innovation and Technology committee is, hey, how do we get everyone to know the technology that exists out there and how we're all trying to infuse this mission of like, we're all, we're all tech companies. Those of us that are software companies.

Right.

We all have the same goal, is to get people to automate their lives faster, get their time back you know, reduce overhead expenses to make more profit. Right. And, and so that's, and, and if it's not for profit, it's still, how do you control budgets? You know, when we work with school districts it's the same thing. Like it's, hey, we don't have enough budget to keep the level of cleanliness at what everyone's demanding. So how do we optimize our back end office, right, to ensure that we're like focused, like we're all focused on the same thing, which is the end outcome that customers want. One thing I do find interesting about the infancy of the stage that we're in as a market is it's maybe more of a newer concept that I don't know if it'll receive push act pushback, but I just, I love the idea of like, hey, how can we come together and all lay down our weapons of competition in these moments to progress the industry forward. Right. And it's also in those moments that there will always be the Android and Apple debate. Right? All of these. And what competition does is it allows us to push our level of thinking and we see a competitor make a decision. Now you shouldn't just go compete against competitors. Your first people you should listen to is your customers. So as long as they're like directing you, everyone's going to end up in a successful, momentous spot. There's going to be acquisitions, there's going to be mergers in the future and it's all an exciting ride for the, the future of technology in the cleaning industry. And I think the reality is, is that if people keep an open mind about all those processes and help push that agenda forward because if, if we build for our end customers and all of our end customers are constantly demanding an all in one. Yeah, no, I want, I want you to always be good at everything, right? So, so then they come to us and they're like, well, nothing's all that impressive, right? And you're just like, you know, so the industry will push us in the direction of what we're being built. And so the fact that this is a constant, this is a debate today on like do you choose this? Or this means that the industry's breaking out of this mindset that I was a part of seeing firsthand 15 years ago, which was, nope, I just want you to do everything. Like we used to have a CRM module, we used to have an inventory module, we used to have a bidding and estimating module. Part of, yeah, we don't have them anymore. Took guts. But I Said cut them. They are not good. They are not serving a purpose. They're technology debt to us.

Yes, exactly.

So.

Well, and I.

It was a hard decision.

I would tell you that, like, when you're around really smart, that's why I like talking to you and I like talking to people at the committee. Because when you're around smart people, you. You are who you surround yourself with. Right. And so having these conversations with competitors, not just from a perspective of like surrounding yourself with smart people, but I think organically you start to form really or conversations about pushing the industry forward from a professional standpoint and challenging each other from like just a quality control inspection tool. Right. Thinking through, like, what is an actual proper quality assurance program? What is the frequency? Like, what are we saying for the janitorial industry? Is it weekly, is it daily, is it monthly, is it quarterly? And obviously the client will dictate a lot of that. But what are best practices? Like, because there's a lot there in terms of, and we talked about this earlier, like clean and dirty, it's far other day. Gone are the days of clean and dirty. Right. It's much more information is needed. And so having that space where there's a lot of commonality behind initiatives within these amazing companies and what the intention behind professionalizing the industry, standardizing the industry, it just, it feels like we're all trying to march at the same, in the same direction and trying to support each other, empower each other and say, hey, like, we're all, we all want the same thing for each other, right?

Yeah, exactly. Like, well, I think of, I think of how every, like smart dispensers like this, this is going to be its own episode, you know, in the future is people that are way more experienced here. But I see apps being developed for like, just the management of like their technology. And I was just like, yeah, but your entire client portfolio isn't using all the same smart dispenser or brand across your entire management. And so there's there's gotta be this, you know, this revolution of technology that says, hey, you know what, they're creating their own apps to say, hey, manage all. Yeah, that's cool. But, you know, is that scalable compared to say, hey, if I'm a building service contractor, I got 15 different customers that demand I use their system for property management.

Yeah.

And if we aren't going to get to those conversations to say, how do I solve the problem for the building service contractor to say, hey, now I'm not forced to use their 15 different systems because I'm just trying to keep them happy so I can keep the contract. It's just like totally cool. We actually can integrate with that system from the main hub of technology we use and you get our data and vice versa. Like that's the future that will come together because it's, it's already being demanded.

Yeah.

And it's going to, we're going to get into a moment of a lot more data sharing as we move forward and it that can only benefit all of our end users.

Well, and I would challenge the all in one platforms to think through like a case study for platform optimization statistics. Like, if you really do have an all in one tool, what is the data to show that the users are using all the features of an all in one? Like, are they really optimizing it to an 80% capability or are they just using it to schedule, you know, like. So I think that's also something that would be fascinating because if you, to your point, you like, you sacrifice maybe a little bit in terms of I really like this time and attendance part of it, but I don't like the other stuff. Right. I don't really need the other stuff. So let's see some stats and see like, okay, if you're gonna say you're a great tool, like, where are, where are your users? What are they using? How often are they using it? I think that would be really fascinating.

So years ago we tried migrating, we did migrate and said, hey, we're trying to keep things really simple. And we were going to use the like Zoho suite.

Yeah.

And there's a couple of Zoho apps we still use today, but over time we just kept swapping them back out. Right. Now, while Zoho might have a answer to some of those pieces, what Zoho does is also integrate their current with their own competition. Because I think and many others like Salesforce and HubSpot and they understand like some people are like they're competitors. Why are they integrating with each other? Well, it's because they understand the concept that it's better to have people find cohesiveness in their processes and get a piece of the pie instead of force someone into frustration saying, you gotta use the entire, you gotta eat the whole pie.

Well, and that's what causes frustration. And a user leaving. Right. Is like you put blockers and you make it impossible for them to scale or to serve their clients. And it's like, nope, can't do it. Nope, you can't do it. That's not part Of. Or you have to use it this way or you can't. It's just. It becomes so frustrating. So companies that do play well with others that sound like a broken record, but I think those are the ones that are really successful because they allow. It makes it very simple, very easy to. You can work with us, or to soho's example, you can work with our competitors, but you could also use our system to work with our competitors. It still gives that penis factor that platforms are constantly looking for.

Yeah. And it's to. To kind of wrap this all up. It's not easy.

No, it's.

It is not. It's so hard because the. The premise behind all of this is you have to define a process.

Yeah.

And you have to define where data flows in, where data flows out. And like, there's something called data fatigue where you collect too much data and it doesn't. If you aren't making business decisions off of it, then it's waste. It's just more noise in front of you.

Yes.

And that's. It's just. It's hard to sift through. And honest, you need someone to manage your technology stack.

Yeah. The shepherd of that. A hundred percent. This is a great topic. Look at us. Look at us.

We could probably go for another hour.

We could. We really could.

Real quick story to all of those of you listening. I told Karina I was starting to go into. Six days ago, Microsoft announced this new quantum computing chip. And I started trying to explain it. She's like, we can't bring this up to our audiences. You can't even explain it.

Well, I was thinking there's no way I could talk about this. This is like way over my head. Flatter that you think that I could have an hour segment, but not a chance. Like, still not clear. All I think about is Quantum. Is the guy the Ted Danza? What's that show back in, like the 80s that he leaps through the future? You're probably way younger than I am, but my gosh. What is it? I'll have to think about it. Quantum Leap, I think it's called. Quantum Leap.

Quantum Leap. Gotcha.

Hold on. I have to. I have to do this, but I. Yeah, go ahead.

I was just gonna say it. There's. There's technology advancing, and I look back at the last decade of advancements for technology, and I just think the next three years, every year we get further into it. Think of where AI was a year and a half ago to where it is today. The advancements of automation and understanding. It's all moving towards how do we take incredibly complex technology stuff and make it simple even for the cleaning industry. And to have sat on a long, you know, two plus decades in the cleaning industry to see the complexity change from users understanding and willingness. We're just, we're gonna see things advance faster. And I've, I think I said this last episode, we're gonna see things advance that we as maybe tech people dreamed of.

Yeah.

Like and didn't ever believe that the industry would come around to advance. And then all of a sudden any year from now on this podcast we're gonna be like, wow, we gotta keep up. Cause everyone's adopting.

Yes. That's the hope. That's the goal. That we can not only challenge people in terms of like the way that they think about it, but really enforce change in our behav and what we're using, how we're using and lean into things that may feel uncomfortable but would really help scale the business and really foster positive relationships too with partnerships, in my opinion.

Yeah. Exciting times ahead. If you like what you are hearing and you have suggestions and if you want Karina and I to debate something. We haven't really gone head to head on something quite yet but and it's not just us debating. We're obviously when we bring guests on, we're, we're not going to bring them on. Be like we're going to challenge you today. Little did you know. But if you have suggestions or if you're interested in adding to the conversation, please comment, please reach out and let us know and we'll catch you next time on the Hard refresh. Thanks everyone.