Biometrics, Buy-In & Behavioral Change | E19 – Hard Refresh – An ISSA Podcast

Sam. Welcome back everyone to another fantastic, eloquently prepared episode of Hard Refresh. We are excited we got Josh from find on the episode today. Josh, welcome to the show, my man. Super excited to have you.

Great to be here. Thanks so much for the invite and it was great to see you guys both recently.

Yes.

Yeah, Chicago is always a blast.

Wait a minute, wait a minute. Before we get started, Kaden, I have to embarrass you because this man just turned 33 this week. Oh, a big birthday to my.

Thank you.

Amazing co host. Could not do it without him. Love to embarrass him and love to look how red you're turning. You're so.

I know this is the lighting.

Having just turned 40, Kaden, I would probably give any amount of riches to just. Just go back seven years. So enjoy it.

Karina also had a birthday in June.

No, we don't talk about those.

Cuz we, we won't say an age. I'm just saying month of birthdays.

Yes. Well, he, I always tease him. I feel like I've said this so many times, but I'm the Peruvian sister, older sister that he never wanted. He's the little baby of the group.

It's true. Although Karina is just like I have a, a sister. I have. So I think I've said this on the show before. I have seven sisters.

Oh.

So yeah, it matches like a Peruvian sister. I never wanted. I never wanted another sister.

To be fair.

But. But I always wanted her brother. So anyways. But yes, it's great to be another year older. Feel it. Last night I pulled a groin muscle really bad playing hockey and I said, welcome to 33.

This is it. You've arrived.

I have arrived. Anyways. Well, Josh, let's get back to you. Tell us a little bit about your background and a little bit about find. And then the moment everyone has been waiting for is someone else to choose. Roasted by AI. Josh has decided to be in the hot seat today. Although you could have totally like made it soft like Karina's and like where it wasn't a roast. So we'll see. We'll see. But go ahead and take care of that as well and then we'll go from there.

Awesome. So let's see. I spent 20 years in the recruiting industry working for two different companies. Most of my career was at an organization that ended up becoming the largest global staffing and recruitment firm while I was there. And what I spent most of my time doing was working with clients really around talent, strategy and a lot of These were in frontline workforce environments, manufacturing logistics. And what we often found was that the coordination of talent between demand strategy and execution, there were the biggest gaps for making the organization the most efficient that they could be. And a lot of that was eventually backed up by technology. So when I found. When I found find three years ago and the technology is 10 years old, it was founded by two technology co founders that came out of construction estimation software. So really figuring out how to take a lot of complex variables, have them make sense to be able to become actionable insights. I really saw the future of what most organizations are going to do from a human capital management perspective. All the way from getting people to come in and apply onboard and then effectively be engaged and managed in the right way. That makes sense for a frontline worker who isn't a desk employee. They're not sitting in front of a computer every day. They're often in many different environments throughout the week. And just seeing the power of how that can be built for the worker first, enabled to be accessible, whether you're English first speaking or not, whether you have a smartphone or not, it really just kind of opened my eyes to where everything is going. And so coming on board with the team in September, I've spent a lot of time working with members within the Issa community and learning more about our customer base. But ultimately the platform is. Is built for frontline workers to be able to go focus on doing their job and making sure that they get paid accurately for doing so, so they don' have to worry about tracking their time and doing a bunch of administrative things that benefits the organization, but doesn't necessarily make their job easier, while at the same time giving organizations the visibility into the granular cost of their business on a day to day basis so they can run it the most effectively and not waste any money or time where they could be reinvesting that back into their workforce.

I love it.

That is awesome.

Hopefully that made sense.

Yeah, no, that's. That's awesome. So now you know who to turn to for all of the amazing things. If you are a listener and looking for that, Josh can help in those conversations. But Josh, this is the ultimate moment. What have you decided to just open to the air and share with the world about what AI thinks about you?

I'm sorry, I thought you guys were gonna AI roast, Battle me or roast me.

You have to tell us what your model told you about your.

Yeah, so go to. What do you use? Chat GPT?

Yes, I do.

It's a simple prompt. You just Say, based off what you know about me, roast me based on.

My gosh, this is amazing that it's happening in real time. Live time to prepare. Nothing just came up here in the bar we've opened.

All right. I love it. Okay. Okay. Are you all ready?

Yes, please.

I'm just gonna read it.

I can't even look at the screen to see your guys's faces, but it says, all right, Josh, buckle up, because you did ask for this. Look at you, the chief commercial officer of Find AI leading the charge to help janitors and construction workers clock in with their face while you're over here clocking out of your cardio halfway through your one mile run. You spend hours obsessing over workforce utilization rates, biometric fraud, but need me to remind you to drink one more water so you can finally see those ads you keep promising yourself? You've probably got more VTO templates than vegetables in your fridge. You're out here pitching AI powered scheduling solutions to BPOps at UPS, but your own meal plan is one away message from becoming a doordash order again. You build your entire sales strategy around channel enablement and predictive growth, but your sleep schedule looks like it was built for a tablet or with an espresso machine. And don't think I didn't notice. You can craft a surreal style ad copy to roast your clients about fraud, but when it comes to naming your own messaging product, you're out here calling it Messaging Center. Shakespeare's ghost is rolling in his grave. Messaging Center, Josh, really? But hey, at least you know to outsource the hard stuff, like your personal roast. Want another round or should I save it for the next quarterly business review?

My God, that. I was honestly crying. That was incredible.

Good for you.

My. Seriously, my respect. I've never heard anyone read it live like that. I love it.

I mean, it's not wrong.

So that's the best part. You're just like, oh, man.

Yeah.

And then it reminds you. You're like, man, this thing knows me.

Yeah.

Yeah. And that is. That is a crazy. I will just say this about all these LLMs and, you know, whether you're using Gemini or ChatGPT or whatever, it's crazy how much of a feedb back loop it becomes over time. Like if I go to Gemini or some other ones that I just rarely use and I ask it something that I regularly ask ChatGPT, I'll get something back where I'm like, no, you don't know me. Like, you're not listening to me right? What kind of answer is this so.

Right.

It's pretty funny.

I love that you said that. Because I am very adamant about. Chad and I are best friends. I've named him. His name is Chad. And, like, I talk to him regularly in the morning. And I can't use Copilot. I can't use Gemini. I. I feel like I would be cheating on Chad, and they just don't get me like Chad does. So at this point, I have one relationship, and I'm gonna stick to it because he understands every aspect of my being. I really. I'm very, very committed. Is the qu. Is the real.

When we were in Chicago, Reena was driving us graciously to Walgreens, right?

Yeah.

Is that where we were headed? And we did not go to a gas station because she called us peasants for thinking to go to a gas station.

Hayden, you can't say that on here. Unbelievable. I said, walk like peasants. I said. Or maybe I did say, don't go gas station like peasant. Anyway, I digress. Continue.

But Karina pulls out Chad starts talking to it. She's like, check it out. This is my. My digital relationship. But it. It knows her really well.

But it also getting to talk like me. Like, he honestly will respond in the same tone and pitch that I do. Instead of being erotic. Like, it knows exact. I have a thought in terms. And before, I used to be like, Chad, you're interrupting me. Stop that. Like, I haven't finished. And now it's knows that I. When my pauses are coming. Anyway.

Right.

Sorry.

Anyways, so. But let's dive into some quick control what's coming up, Karina, and then we'll dive into our great discussion today.

Yes, I'm gonna go through this quickly. Cause I want to get into the segment with Josh, but essentially check out the YouTube channel. We do have some new episodes. Michelle from Swept. Um, we'll also do a good job of posting it on LinkedIn. And then Ron Segura is coming on the show next week. Super jazzed about that. And in August, we have our first webinar of the year, led by the Bright Go team. So do sign up for that. We'll have more information, all the things they are coming. And that's it. Let's get into it. Right?

Okay, Josh, let's dive in. So, obviously, the clearing the cash moment of flipping the script on ways people think is what hard refresh is all about. And I want to dive into the impact of your experience with biometrics, workforce trust and accountability. So let's start off with diving into just biometric technology in general and how it's changing accountability in the janitorial industry.

Yeah, well, I think first and foremost, just to maybe back up the story a little bit, you know, biometrics have been around for a long time and as I mentioned before, I spent a long time in the staffing industry. And so that would mean I'd be sending my workforce into another customer's environment. And oftentimes we had to set up our own time and attendance tracking systems. And I've used non biometric fingerprint, iris scanning and facial recognition. The thing that I can say about biometrics in general is if I look at Karina's thumbprint, I mean, Karina, I'd love to get to the point at some point to know that that's your thumbprint, but like, I'm going to have no idea that that's you. And hopefully the machine does know that that's you and you're not working with chemicals so, you know, your thumb prick gets worn away and there's a bunch of errors that you have to deal with. And again, same thing with an iris scan, which can tell that it's my eyes, but can easily be confused for somebody else's brown eyes sometimes. And so if I look at a picture of just my eyes, I'm not going to necessarily be able to tell that it's me looking at somebody's face. You can immediately identify, oh, yeah, that's Kayden. Kaden looks good today. Kaden shaved his beard. And so there are, there are very easily identifiable, identifiable things when it comes to facial recognition as a biometric. But not all biometrics are the same. So a lot of times I'll see biometrics are doing this or doing that, and it's not clear exactly what that means because it could be a whole bunch of different variations that are being used. And some of the most recent iterations are things like tying biometrics to a geofence so you know, it's that person, but they're also at the job site that they're supposed to be and then tying it to time. Now we know that they're there when they're supposed to be there. And so you get all these really interesting pieces of data that you can start to tie together. And the last thing that I would say is even until this year, facial recognition biometrics still really relied on a few distinct facial features that were like your eye spacing, ear spacing, mouth, like, you know, facial structures that if I had a really Good image of myself and held it up just right to the camera. It could still say, oh yeah, that's Josh, we're going to check him in. The facial biometric would work well this year there's been super interesting advancements in what's called liveness detection. So now you can track things like micro movements on the face. So it's not just about having the image of somebody, but it's actually being able to tell are they smiling. You can start to get sentiment analysis off of how does that person look today? And so in my mind, it is the most accurate way to tell who that person is, where they're at, and if they're there at the right times to prevent all of the other issues that can come from using a separate biometric or no biometric at all. And then it really gets much more close to what I would call honor based time, which has a lot of issues with it.

I love that you just said that about sentiment analysis, because this is where I was going to ask, like, when you're talking about technology from my perspective, I always try to look at it from a lens of like humanizing technology, especially at that frontline level where they have a very hard time with being not, not just replaced, but they just have kind of this tricky relationship with tech. And so you're bringing in biometric technology that's like heavier than most traditional thumbprint. Not heavier, but it's just, it's more innovative right now. You talk about sediment analysis. Have you guys thought through and in terms of like what you're using that sentiment analysis for from a culture perspective to gauge how happy that employee is not just from like clocking in and out, but also from like a learning perspective with tools that they're using. And let me just actually stop there. Have you guys used anything to to with that sentiment analysis first?

Yeah. So using AI is kind of the back engine for a lot of this. I'll give you two different examples in terms of the analysis that we're doing with biometrics. One, around sentiment. And the interesting thing around sentiment is you don't want to be able to prejudge sentiment without having a baseline. So if I show up every day to work and clock in and my face looks like, well, me all of a sudden showing up and looking like that 30 days from now. There's nothing for sentiment analysis to say. Like, that's just what I look like every day. But if I show up every day looking like and then I show up with that first face, well, then there is A differentiation that is abnormal. Right? I mean AI at its core is super compelling pattern matching to, you know, an nth degree that, that I'll never be able to quite understand how it works, but it's pattern matching. And now having an anomaly outside of the pattern gives us something to say, hey, let's flag this. It's not a high priority flag, so it doesn't need to be, you know, protected or you know, sent to somebody as super sensitive information. But somebody in the leadership organization might want to know. Like Josh usually looks pretty happy. Today he doesn't look so happy. Maybe there's something going on there. And again, how often you want that, you know, sentiment analysis to be created and flagged can all be decided on from a rules based perspective. But at the end of the day those are the sentiments that we want to be able to grab and articulate something is different and then not necessarily make a judgment call on what that means, but at least point it out so organizations could pay attention to that.

Man, if you have a rbc, what is it? Resting. I'm not going to say the word.

No, no.

Then that's a problem, right? Because not that it's a problem, but you'd have to. To your point, Josh, you have to train the model to know that that's not. Doesn't mean that you're in a bad mood. It just means that you have are and my sister in law. If you're listening, Andrea, I know you have one, so just this would not be ideal for you.

We call, call it resting pissed off face.

Yeah, okay.

Yeah, that makes sense.

We can say that version. No, it, it's fascinating, Josh. One of the things that I immediately went to, maybe not, maybe this is a side tangent, but you know how you have to, you take your picture now every time you go through tsa and I'm always curious like how much data is gathering of like all of my travel. Like, because I've been known to have a resting, pissed off face. So, so I'm just like. But when I go up to. I'm like usually in a happy mood. It's usually pretty quick, especially as I'm flying out of Salt Lake. And so I'm like, I go. But like I, I look at the camera and then I just go like just so I'm like. All the data they're collecting, it's like, man, this passenger just hates life.

Oh yeah, yeah. Anyways, those, Those you know, 7am Flights out of O' Hare and you know, you, you're struggling to understand why this line over here is shorter than the TSA clear line, which you paid extra for. I get it. And, and I guess, you know, the other thing to say. And again, it's all an application of learning in the biometric. So when I create my face spaces originally just kind of move my phone around my face to have it learn what my face looks like. Just like you do when you get a new smartphone. Well, I might not be wearing a hat or glasses. So when I go to scan in and all of a sudden I'm wearing glasses or I have a hard hat on or something like that. The key for us is to learn facial pattern changes over time. Because who knows, right? A miracle might happen. I might actually be able to grow a beard like Kaden, which I can't today, but if I did, I'd want to, you know, have the biometric learn that so I don't have to get an exception every single time that something on my face changes or I'm wearing something different. And that's the level of sophistication that makes it easier for the employee. Right. So the whole point around doing all of this is not to prevent them from clocking in or make, you know, some sort of a hurdle in the day to day operations, but it's like, hey, this is interesting or this has changed. Somebody's going to look at that and if they're like, oh yeah, that's Josh, he's just wearing a hat and grew a beard. Great. Now it's learned that new change and so it can adapt over time. Same thing with the sentiment analysis. It's a learning algorithm that can change as the person changes.

Right. So this actually goes into a great follow up question of change management. When you bring, when you. We've done this through technology, Karina's done this through technology, like quite the experience in this room right now. But let's talk about specifically the change management. When you're, you're coming in and you're just saying ultimately something that could be subconsciously being communicated is you guys aren't reliable. You guys can't seem to do this. You forget to clock in. People are trying to game the system. So we have this, we have biometrics now in place. Like there, there could be, it doesn't have to be communicated. I think naturally the human mind goes to like, like what? Like now I got to do face ID for clocking in and stuff. Am I not trusted? Like this? This one's like a little bit harder than other change management. Especially to the front line. Let's, let's dive into it. How have you seen companies struggle or succeed with a technology that might feel a little bit threatening at first?

Yeah, so I think communication is the, well, the understanding across the organization from how it's going to be executed. So having a plan. Right is the first thing where what I've seen go really badly is when somebody is trying to do something different but hasn't effectively gotten an agreement or buy in with the other groups that are going to be impacted by that, whether it be the technology group or the payroll group or the HR group. So getting everybody together, having a plan and saying, yes, we want to do this and we want to do this for these reasons and being very clear about, we want to make sure that everybody is actually paid accurately. You know, we could be underpaying people because let's be honest, in a lot of cases there might be shift differentials or overtime and things, you know, that don't get accurately given to the employees. And it's like we want to make sure that that doesn't happen. So we need the most accurate way to perform our duty to the employees of paying them and paying them on time and accurately. But so you get your reasons together and then you want to go communicate it. But more often than not, what we see organizations try to do is roll it out in one big, you know, swoop. It's like everybody's got to now move to this thing, which never goes perfectly. There's just always going to be a hiccup in the road and then the squeaky wheel gets the grease. And so if it goes wrong with the, the wrong leader or the wrong group of employees, all of a sudden it's wildfire. So.

Yep.

So what we want to be able to do is say hey. And we just, you know, it's funny cause I, I was just thinking through some of the most challenging or the perceived challenging environments we were going to roll out to. And in one of them it was like, hey, give me your five most challenging employees and kind of supervisor to that are going to be the most resistant. And then it's about giving them optionality. Hey, do you want to use your phone and just have that be your clock in, clock out. You don't have to walk up to a tablet or do anything. Totally up to you. Do you want a tablet where you again can walk up, punch in. You know, you don't have to worry about a device, whatever the case might be, and making sure that everybody understands that whatever their preference is is something that we're going to try to accommodate as best as possible. This isn't about us forcing something onto a population for just the purpose of making our lives easier. This hopefully should make their lives easier as well. And at the end of the day, the, the exceptions to the rules still happen. We have one customer and they're in the general contracting space. They have a 65 year old man that just, he doesn't have a smartphone, he doesn't want to walk up to the tablet, he's on time every single day. And so, you know, from a supervisor's perspective, he's like, hey, can I just enter the time for Oscar? And then we're like, yeah, that's totally up to you now whether or not you want to do that for everybody, for, you know, all these different use cases. But it's not to say that you have to do it just this way. Our technology should never dictate your process. And that really becomes the goal of a good technology rollout and change management because it should enhance everybody's experience and outcomes and yeah, protect the organization from things where bad actors are taking advantage of, you know, the rules in the system. Which by the way, for the good actors should really piss them off, right? Because that's money they're stealing out of their pocket. Because if the company was going to give everybody a raise next year and all of a sudden they can't do that because they had a bunch of loss prevention from employees that were stealing time, well, that's money out of everybody else's pocket that's trying to do the right thing. And I do think every scenario is different just because there's, there's kind of three factors right there. There's readiness, there's willingness, and there's ableness. So readiness is like, hey, we've all sat around in a room as leaders and said, hey, we're ready for this. Then there's the willingness, which is, I've taken it a step further, to work through how, when started, to really develop the why, not only from the internal perspective, but the external perspective of the employee. And then there's the ableness, which is we have enough time and resource bandwidth to actually go do this. Because being ready to do something, being willing to do something, thinking through the why behind the what, and then getting down to it and saying everybody's already stretched to their max and if you introduce one more thing to it, it's going to break the dam, we'll kill the whole thing to begin with. And so I think if you work through that process of, hey, make a decision on what you want to go do and why you want to go do it and then make sure that you can resource the change properly, which a partner, any good partner out there in technology should be able to help you with. But they can't do it all alone. It is a two to tango playbook where nobody's going to sit there and listen to Josh from Fine. No matter how funny my, you know, roast battle in on ChatGPT is because they like me, they're going to listen to a leader or somebody that they trust and, and that knows they're going to be there on a day to day basis to help them work through the issues of the change. So I think really it's not a one and done, hey, we're making this decision, let's move forward. I think if anybody does that, they're setting themselves up for failure. They really got to go through a bit of a process and some of that doesn't involve partners or technology providers. It really is the internal work that they have to go through as well.

Man.

No. So, yeah, so I think there's a mix of probably two or three different factors. So the first one is super easy. They've uncovered something that they're not comfortable with and they don't have a control for, you know, knowing one of our customers that operates mainly in one state but had a remote site that they were servicing out of their state and so they had less leadership overs came, you know, came to find that there was quite a bit of fraud that was happening and so they were just uncomfortable with the situation that was going on. They needed to make a change so they felt like they had a better governance over, over that particular environment.

Yep.

So I think there's, there's that and, and that could come from ops, it could come from finance, it could come from anybody that really kind of sees it. But once they see it, they're like, hey, we gotta, we gotta solve for this. The second one is an external factor from the customer. Customers are getting so much more sophisticated with the data that they want to see who's in my building. How many people have they gone through a vetting process and an auditing process that makes me feel comfortable with them being here. We have a customer that's, we're writing a white paper right now. They do food, sanitation, overnight cleans and, and one of their biggest issues was they did all the right things for hiring in terms of E Verify and checking documents. But they still unfortunately had had an incident that they were ultimately responsible for in terms of hiring an underage worker. And so they didn't have enough of a technology system and multi layered approach in there to try to solve for that. And customers are going to, you know, really look into that in terms of are you putting me at risk, are you putting my brand at risk by having these employees in my building? And so risk mitigation and meeting the customer's need is the second one and then the third one that I'll just call out in general. And this seems to be relative no matter, matter the industry but, but certainly I think in, in the services space leadership changes. So you know, we think about a lot of multi generational family owned businesses and as the baton gets passed or as a new leader gets brought in, there's new ideas that are going to come to the table, there's innovations that are going to come about and I think simply thinking about a new or different way to, to do the business that has been going on for a long time can be helpful. It's not always good to just go with something new because it's new and different, but re examining business practices is happening faster and faster. The change cycles for technology happen every six months. Every six months. There's a new model for ChatGPT. There's a new capability in technology and biometrics. But most systems in an organization don't change maybe every three years, but probably longer. So it's like way longer. And yeah, and so it's like, okay, all this new technology has happened in the last five, seven years. I haven't made a change in the whole time. So now I have to leapfrog into this new environment. And that makes change even harder because I'm now moving so far into the future of advanced technology compared to what I was used to in all the processes. That can be a little scary as well. I kind of went off on a different tangent than what you originally asked about.

But no, that was, that was awesome. One of the thoughts I had while you were talking, Josh, is this, this level of change management, especially at some of the scale of companies that you try and talk with, find it. You're talking hundreds of thousands of employees potentially. We aren't all in an office building where you can blast over the intercom, make sure all the signs are up on the doors, you know, a siloed environment. We're talking nationwide international organizations that have to go roll out products and processes. More importantly, and this is the biggest piece and always has been for me, regardless of the product you're changing a process. And that is just so much harder to do when you have to times it by a thousand. Right. So the question I have maybe is just to touch a little bit more on maybe some of the processes, maybe some of the cool things that you have seen. Organizations perhaps did it in a, in a way that our listeners can, can learn from, that might have been unique to avoid some of the typical pitfalls. Any cool stories out there and implementations of like, man, this seemed to work for them. This was a clever way to, to go. Roll this out to 2500 people.

Yeah, it's a great question. When I hear you say process just in my head, what I think about is behaviors. Right? And so it's like, even if I think about that from an individual perspective, and I don't know if you all have a morning routine, I don't. So like, the behavior change for me would be like if I woke up every day and did the same three things in a row, like right after I woke up, like, that would feel like nails on a chalkboard for me just because like, that's not, that's not what I'm used to. And it would probably be better for me. Right. It would be a more healthy approach to making sure that the first thing I do is drink a glass of water or do something. And so the way that I would think about the cool things that our customers have done and it's going to sound so simple and just like a duh. But I mean, it's one thing at a time. So if I wanted to change my morning routine, I would start with just one thing. Every day when I get up, I'm going to drink a glass of water. And until I get comfortable with that, until that becomes muscle memory and I feel like, okay, I'm okay with this now. I'm not like freaking out that I have to do this one thing. Then I could add the second thing. Same thing with technology. If you're adopting new technology. And again, most of the technologies out there today are built modularly where you don't need to roll out everything all at once. So for us, it would be like customers that want to start with time clocks and scheduling and messaging center and, you know, all these other things, I would say, hey, can we just roll out clocks first? Because then we get all these other things. It's a super low friction point for people to start to adopt that. And then once we're there now let's start talking about, you know, all these other areas that we can introduce the team to because it's going to feel like a much more natural progression and evolution of change and the sizing of it. It. I said this before, trying to roll it out everywhere all at once. Yeah, not a great thing. And also, I don't necessarily want to roll it out to the most successful, efficient place either. It's like, give me your worst site, give me your worst performing environment, let me roll something out super simple there. Because if they start to increase their performance and efficiency, like A, it's the biggest win that you're going to get and B, all the other places that are already running efficiently are going to say, gosh, how much more efficient can I get if I have this now that this one site that we all were looking at and be like, ah, do we even want to be there anymore? Is now doing great.

So I have a question about actual timelines. Right. So if you're talking about let's do a traditional building, so we have three day porters during the day. Right, Day porters and then 15 at night between the night team supervisor, et cetera, timeline wise, how long is it going to take that site? And I'm going to need you to probably define like, on like an actual timeline of success. What does that success look like? How, how long does that take for me to be able to show them what to do, how to do it, them getting comfortable and then it's like, okay, you guys are good to go. Like, what does that look like for that building?

Yeah, I mean, let's just pretend that all the integrations and you know, configurations and the technology are done. But ultimately you want to have kind of a two, two and two strategy. So two, two weeks of hey, we're going to train you on this, we're going to, you know, give you hyper care and kind of, you know, make sure that you're, you're feeling comfortable with everything like that. Two weeks of not and so just seeing how everything happens and then probably two weeks of making some adjustments and you know, doing some break fix work of like, hey, what did we get wrong? What do we need to make sure we're reinforcing and, and what in that Reinforcement. You know, I think about reinforcement a lot. It's just, it's the reminders of the things that we know we should do but you know, just kind of slip through the cracks of our day to day experience that if you need to have a reminder, it can be, you know, built into the process. But within four to six weeks you should be pretty much able to with a Technology that doesn't require a huge amount of behavioral change, which again, at the frontline level, our goal is to have them experience almost no change management. A really good black and white picture of before and after. So now I, now I see the result of the after. Now I can see the result of the before, after that six week period.

Yeah, in, in our experience, it's very similar. And for anyone who understands change management, right. Going through milestones, one of the things, and maybe we'll end with this, Josh, is just this perception that is common is just maybe the sense of urgency. And because there's a very reactive culture in the cleaning industry, it can create this sense of urgency to say, hey, you know what, I needed this yesterday and this client's demanding this and we need to show this proof. And you're just like, how do you help someone understand that, like, you can't like the art of implementation, you can't rush art. Right. And success. How do you, how do you combat maybe that level of urgency versus trying to meet a client demand?

So I think being very transparent with timelines up front and so people can understand that. Because a lot of times what I hear is nobody brings up the elephant in the room until the last minute, until they're basically married to the idea. And so I think bringing up the timeline expectation early and often is helpful. And then when you walk through that readiness, willingness, ableness, strategy of like, hey, help me understand when you got in a room with, if I'm talking to somebody in operations and I'm like, hey, when you sat down with finance and it and you decided that you, you guys were going to start looking at this, what do they say? We haven't talked to them yet. Let me tell you why most of our customers, you know, need to go have that conversation first before they're ready to make this decision. And what some of the things can happen if they don't in terms of, you know, just missing different aspects of other projects or priorities or things like that. And so helping craft that change management process and just making sure that people realize the level of decision making and communication and work that needs to go into that. And I say all of that to also know there are situations where clients show up and they say, we absolutely need this because this just happened to us and we need to move a million miles per hour. And at that point, my job is to say, let me help you understand how fast we can move. And if that meets your timeline, we're going to try and do everything we can to do that. But I also don't want you to sit here and think that I'm going to be able to do all of that. And then four weeks later, you're like, all right, you guys suck. I'm firing you. Because, you know, you weren't able to do X, Y, Z. So sometimes you got to slow down to speed up, but also when things are pedal to the metal, if you have the ability, and I think that's also just quite honestly, the. The hard look in the mirror we have to take sometimes as a technology organization is, do we have the resources to do this and can we move that fast? And while I don't ever want to be pessimistic, I don't want to be so overly optimistic that somebody's like, right, well, you said. And I'm like, yeah, I thought, you know, it's like, you know. Anyway, so hopefully that answers your question.

Yeah. No, that's the gold nugget. For our listeners today. The gold nugget coming out of Josh's mouth. I'm going to say it's slow down to speed up. Like, that's really slow down. Think about it. Strategize. And then you can actually use tools that actually speed you up because you slowed down first. So there's our gold nugget takeaway for today. Josh, it has been so fun to have you on the show. And that's a wrap, everyone. Hopefully you got some gold nuggets. Go give Josh a follow on all of the good social medias or the bad ones. And, you know, take some lessons from Josh today. He's an expert in change management, and hopefully you got some good things that were caught, not necessarily taught by today's episode. Thanks, everyone, for joining.

Thanks, Kaden.