Cut Through the Chaos | E18 – Hard Refresh – An ISSA Podcast

Sa. Welcome to the show, everyone. Karina, my co host, is not with us today and that's totally fine. I have Michelle, the CEO of Swept, on Hard refresh today and we have a fun discussion coming your way. But before we get started in our usual fashion and format, we are going to do some two truths and a lie. But real quick, before diving into two truths and a lie, Michelle, go ahead and introduce yourself, your background and a little bit of history.

Yeah, thanks, Kaden. It's great to be here. I'm the CEO at Swept Technologies. So I've been with Swept Swept for over seven years now, but my background in technology goes beyond that. This is probably. I'll age myself here quickly, but I think this is about 13th year. I've been sort of working in the tech space, but my background before that was actually commercial banking and working with business owners on the other side of the table. For me, I love this industry because it keeps me connected. It keeps that part of my real area of passion very, very close. So I absolutely love working in this space, working in tech, but staying connected to the business owners the way that we so on a. On a business side, that's a little bit of my background.

Awesome. Okay, well, Michelle and I have only met a couple of times, so this two truths and a lie is going to be pretty fun. But go ahead and take it away.

All right, so here we go. So I have run 10 marathons. I'm a scratch golfer and I'm an ironman.

Marathons and Ironman go hand in hand. That's. I'm going to say the scratch golfer is the lie. Okay.

It's a dream. It should be two truths in a dream, right? Yeah, yeah. No, I started golfing a couple of years ago and absolutely have fallen in love with it. But man, oh man, it is a struggle out there. Lots of people know that get into this. So I'm having a great time, but dreaming about getting that handicap down.

I started golfing several years ago in the same instance. It was just like there's no other sport in the industry that's like, hey, this is. Can also be like a business meeting. So I got involved, invited to a golf tournament and I was like, man, I should learn because this was a little embarrassing. I lost 22 balls my first time ever playing golf.

Wow. It's an expensive round.

Yeah, yeah. And I went all out. I was just like, oh, yeah, I get, you know, I just bought everything and, and that was a hard lesson. I still lose quite a bit of balls, but not Nearly as much. And I try and choose a course now where I can find it on the other fair instead of it going off into trees.

Everybody needs a strategy.

Yeah. So any. Well, that's awesome. Well, tell me about. Okay, so running Ironman. Take a second. Just what got you into that? How many do you do?

Yeah, great question. I'll say. I'll start out by saying I used to do a lot more than I do now. I actually found sports as an adult. So as a young person I really wasn't into sports. And it was after I actually had kids, I started running. And part of that was because I needed something that was mine and nobody really cared where I was at 5am in the morning. So I found this incredible group of women and for the last 25 years we've been running together and you know, kind of sharing life's joys and, and griefs together. Segued into triathlon a few years after I get into running. And of course, you know, if you're goal oriented and competitive, you just kind of keep setting the bar a little bit higher. And so that's kind of the way that's gone. So not doing as much of it right now. Little thing about time that makes it a bit more, a bit more challenging. And I also live in a climate where if you don't get great weather, it's really hard. It can be really hard to, to do the training. But you know, it's taught me a lot about, taught me a lot about business, a lot about resilience. I think there's a lot of great lessons that sport teach us. So, so happy I've had the opportunity to find that and, and be able to connect the dots with what I do today to, to that part of my life too.

Yeah, that is, that is awesome. I, I have a similar story with starting to play hockey like three and a half years ago and just started ice skated. Yeah, just started. And I was playing a game last night at like 11:30 because adult league is super late at night.

Yeah.

And I didn't get home till about 1am so.

Wow.

Similar. Similar experiences. Just there's something about joining a different community outside of business, whether it's a team sport or in running. Having people that you find that community with is lot, lot of parallels to, to business, which probably means to life in general, but anyways. Yeah, well, that's, that's awesome. So just for listeners, we have a couple of things from Quick Control. Recently we went to the Issa Business Growth Strategies, the Innovation and technology Committee was able to have myself and Karina do a workshop there. We had a few others from the committee. If you haven't followed Michelle, she's also a part of the Innovation and Technology committee now. So go give her a follow on LinkedIn. Really the, the content that's coming from the committee, obviously we do hard refresh as a podcast, but we do have webinars coming up, much more group settings and I guess by the time this episode airs we would have just finished the CLX event for robotics, which I'm just projecting future wise at this state that it was an amazing event. So. But we have a, an incredible lineup each quarter. So stay tuned because in about three months we will have another CLX date coming for our next topic and coh learning experience. But that is it on things coming up, what we're going to dive into now is clearing the cash. Now today's episode is a lot of fun. So in my experience the Innovation and Technology committee has been able to bring conversations together amongst industry influencers and leaders that has never happened before. So if you're familiar with Michelle and this as the CEO of SWEPT and myself, we're semi competitors and in fact the committee has quite a bit of competition between each other. And I think the coolest thing is that this committee operates together to bring conversations around innovation around technology. So this episode I've been looking forward to for a while because it's just not a common thing you see and especially in, in our industry, it's just a cool piece that Issa is putting together to bring this truly to, to advance innovation and cleaning together. So to dive in today's, today's discussion, we're going to talk about all things operations and specifically Michelle. One of the first things I wanted to kind of dive into is when you first started working with cleaning companies, obviously there were, there are and there will continue to be glaring disconnects that you see as someone who's trying to solve problems with tech. But I want to dive into a specific problem that is common, which is a disconnect between leadership and how they see things going on versus like what's actually happening from the field. And so this, this kind of moment or this kind of theme of like lessons from the field from your point of view. Can you talk on any glaring disconnects and things that you've seen in your experience between home office back office leadership and, and the field operations?

Yeah, I think it's a, it's a really interesting point, Kaden, because you know, everybody that is in this industry understands, you know, the challenge of having the people that are working the second and third shift while, you know, leadership or the owners and operators are, you know, trying to recharge their batteries to, you know, get back here and do this again. And I think, think one of the big disconnects that we see or that I've certainly seen is that there's often, I think, a disconnect between understanding that the people in the field want to do good work, they want to do a good job, they want to be great at what they're doing. And I think sometimes there's a disconnect from. For the leadership in terms of thinking that people really do want to give their best effort and put their best foot forward in the job that they're doing. And this creates a lot of friction, I think, between, you know, your operations team and then your technician and your technical team. But. But we hear by and large from. From. From the field teams that what they're looking for is the ability to be good at what they do.

Yeah, I mean, it's so interesting. I was. Oh, this was several years ago. I was at a mall, and there was a cleaner coming through and didn't speak any English and was wiping the table. And I kind of, like, gestured, Jim, if, like, we're good to sit down at this table in this food court. And he just kind of nodded, like, yep, it's clean. Like, go ahead, I'm done. And so I just kind of, like, waved thank you. And he went through a few of the other tables, and I noticed about five minutes later, group of individuals sitting next to the table where he was cleaning. He was spraying the other table and wiping it down. And they had people that wanted to join their group, and they were just, like, standing there kind of annoyed, like, waiting for him to. To clean. And it was almost like, palpable, like. And maybe it's because I'm, like, super conscious whenever I see cleaners out cleaning, but it was just this palpable moment of, like, distaste and the annoyance that he was just in the way. And this. This leader, he was in the same uniform, and I could tell you he was the boss. I don't know if the people complained that it was taking too long. It was just. It was just kind of like a weird situation. Anyways, he came over, they were speaking in Spanish, said something, and I. All I understood was the tone, was that something was wrong, something was upset, and people were complaining. And I just. In that moment, I was just like, what's. What's? The disconnect even with society's expectation or lack of respect in this moment. So, like, someone was eating there before the table was dirty. Let him, like, what, why was there such this moment of like, looking down upon someone who is as equally as valuable to society in every capacity. So I love that in the, in the sense of these employees and what they're doing, there's, there's just a real passion for giving them recognition, giving them processes and, and giving them honestly helping leaders lead their teams better because these, these individuals deserve the best leaders in the world at their side and for their advocacy.

Yeah. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. Sorry. Just to say, and we, I mean, you know, if you think about it this, for a, for an operator to be successful, all of that success is really lies in the hands of that field team. And so if they can't build a bridge of trust and they can't figure out how to hire, retain and build relationships, because we talk so much about the hiring and the retention, but the retention is really, really based on them being able to create a connection and build trust with that team and know that, you know, their reputation is in the hands of those people. So it's in their best interest to really approach it from that perspective as opposed to approaching it from the perspective of, you know, I'm going to get burned. This person doesn't want to work. So many of the things that we hear that I think when we connect with humanity, we realize that everybody who comes to work, we all want to be the best at what we do, regardless of what it is, but we need to be empowered and we need to be given tools to be able to do that. That doesn't just happen. So I think there's a lot of, it's one of the things that keeps me here. In a lot of ways, Kaden is like, how do you connect these two groups in that positive way so that there's these great outcomes for both of them?

Yeah. 100 I. You just reminded me, like, the first time, for those of you who don't know, Michael Brown, the founder of Swept, first time him and I spoke, gosh, it would have been probably 2016 somewhere in there. It was at Issa. And he came up to me, he's like, hey, I'm Michael Brown. I'm just an attendee this year, but I'm building a product kind of like yours. And I just, I see these problems in the industry. So I remember the conversation. He's like, you know, I, I, I see this Just industry as full of so much potential. And honestly, at that time, there's always been a few technology pieces in the space. But it was like at that moment that I just saw more and more technology. And I said, I said, dude, Michael, I said, this is great news because there is so much, there's, there's such a long history of just lack of technology adoption. I said, despite us building similar technology, like, gosh, we need more advocates for technology, for adoption, for, to, to this underserved market. And so my, that kind of flows into my next question, which is like before Swept, and you've been around the block at Swept long enough to make the, the founder mindset and now a CEO, just as in alignment. Anyways. But before Swept was a product, was there a specific pain or frustration that was just calling at you guys that you were dialing in on that like, we've, we've got to tackle this first. That was just like the obvious broken that no one seemed to be talking about in cleaning companies that you're like, man, this is an opportunity.

Well, I think it's the, the thing that is still very much the, the challenge, Caden, but it was the problem gets talked about. I use the death by a thousand cuts analogy, right? It's like for the operator, they're so caught in the tactical part of the business and so they problem solve there, but the problem they're all trying to really solve. And that, that when we were a cleaning company where, when Michael had his cleaning company way back when was that Michael actually was great at building businesses and growing. And that was what his vision was when he started the cleaning company. Like, I'm going to build this big cleaning company, I'm going to grow it to blah, blah, blah. And the reality was, as an operator, he wasn't able to do that because he was, he was stuck in that death by a thousand cuts. So how do you help an operator really focus on what their ultimate goal is, which is growth, when all they're doing every single day is putting out fires, Putting out fires. And so that is, I think, the problem that, you know, we, we endeavored to solve. But I also kind of want to comment too on something that you touched on when you, when you started out. It was the fact that, you know, yeah, you and I may be competitors. We're sitting on a committee of people that compete. And I say this all the time. Any one of us would thrilled if we had, you know, 5% of the market share. This is a massive market.

Yeah, right.

It's a Massive market. And we're still trying so hard to help those operators who want to grow come in and understand that it's not as hard, it doesn't have to be as hard as it is for them today. Right. And we're all doing this, or I believe we're all doing this because we have a real belief in the potential of the industry. So you and I have a common goal. Right. If you win, I win. Because that means more people understand how what we do makes them better.

Yeah. Like, to put that into perspective, for those of you who don't know, 5% would equate to about 50,000 organizations.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, yeah, that's. I don't want to give away big.

Secrets here right now, but.

Right.

We're not quite there.

Yeah, I, Yeah, the, the cleaning industry. Well, here's the thing, and maybe this is a little bit of a side tangent. The cleaning industry is very heavy, dominant on small business and beyond small business, like there's, there's even a lower category than small business, which is this the sole preneur. Right.

Yeah.

And they make up at least 30% of this market. Still have like, hey, I'm my own business owner, I do the cleaning and stuff. And so kind of, kind of going even to that problem. Now we don't focus on, on that end of the market as much on, on our platform. But like it is a very palpable problem is that these business owners, one, it's so easy to get started, go buy a mop and a cleaning bucket, a vacuum, like, and boom, you can go start cleaning commercial office space by yourself. But the problem is, is that, and I say this all the time, is people going from chaos to order before any technology is ever like implemented into business. I loved your analogy of like a thousand cuts. Like you're, you're going to die out because you don't have a handle on this chaos to order mindset of man. You've got to just get clear on your target, your operational procedures, what's your process? You don't have to define any of that out as a sole preneur. Right. You just go do it and you get to make decisions and then all of a sudden you bring on your first and second employee and it's like, oh crap, I have to define this for them to succeed. Right. And then they have to like, remember that, well, okay, well now where am I gonna put that information to teach and train them and hold them accountable? Immediately the level of chaos in your business increases because it's not Just you anymore now times that to when you reach 50 employees, thousand employees, 2,500 like it just continually scales. This problem, this, this industry is so vast and so large. The problem is, is never over. So for the listeners out there, like, once you figure it out, you've just upgraded your problem, you haven't solved it forever. It's on to the next level of problem. Anyways, that was a side tangent, but I love that death by a thousand cuts is so true. So.

Yeah, well, and I think it's interesting too, Caden, because I think one of the things that we, that we observe and that I am fixated on trying to find a way to change is this idea that I'm going to go look for. I must need software, right? So something isn't working in my business. People tell me they're using software, I'm going to go find software. But they don't really know what problems they want it to solve. They don't know what they're hiring us to do. And the same way you wouldn't interview a, you know, you wouldn't bring a candidate in and hire them if you didn't have a job description for them. You need to have a job description, you know, for that software. You need to know what is it going to do for you. And you need to test it, you need to interview it. You need, you know what I mean, in that sense of the way when you go through that whole buying process, I believe you need to look at it the same way. And if you're not clear what job you are trying to fill with that, and I'm not talking about taking people away necessarily, I'm just saying that if you are trying to solve problems inside your business and you're trying to create capacity, you need to understand where your pinch points are. You need to understand where those pinch points cost you money. And then you need to understand how could something, how can I build a system and then how will technology help me make that system scale?

Yep.

And in the businesses that we see that go, that they get out of this, they hit that million mark and then they, you know, start gunning for the 5 million mark. If they can't figure that out and if they actually can't get a strategy going, they're going to stay there and they're going to struggle there. And that is the space of the death by a thousand cuts. For those that understand that they need a strategy and then they need to build a system around it, that's where we see the breakout. That's where we see the breakthrough.

Yeah.

And I don't want those people to be the exception. I want that to become the rule in this industry.

Yeah, 100%. And it's like, it's so common. So last week, what Karine And I, about 18 months ago, I started developing something called the are method or the R method. And the whole premise was like, hey, out outside of, like, Tuvi, could I. Could I go create a foundational layer that has nothing to do with our product that says, hey, how do I help people just, like, make a decision? So how do we help them get clarity on what their problem is? I've never said it the way you just said it about the job description, but that is probably the most perfect analogy that I've heard is like, yeah, I'm just gonna hire you. We're a cleaning company, and you're just gonna have a job. It's just like, okay. And all of a sudden they're like, in back office admin work, or they're like, well, now I'm cleaning toilets. Like, so what is my role? Like, that's, that's the level of confusion that, that so many of these businesses operate out of. And so it's just, it's so fascinating how. Well, and here's, here's a piece of advice in, in my experience, and I'm sure just as well as your experience, it is the smartest decision to tackle when you are a smaller organization, when you only have a few employees. Now, typically, the. The market we serve, we wait till growth has already happened just with the comprehensiveness of our tool. And, man, there are many times where it's just like, you should have figured this out 500, 600 employees ago because it's. It is so much harder at scale to make significant changes and kind of going back to like, death by a thousand cuts. Enterprise organizations, you start building so much red tape, so many processes. You have a thousand cooks in your kitchen that all have an opinion. And when you don't have a process, any standard operating procedures developed in certain categories, and then all of a sudden you're like, well, I could have defined this again 500 employees ago. And this could have just been culturally embedded from the beginning that this is what we do. Well, now it's an organizational shift. So there is timing. And everything in business that's. Today's episode isn't about that timing of when to pull triggers on those decisions, but it is. It very much matters when to pull that. And more often than not, I've found that those decisions are delayed way too long to develop those standard operating procedures. Again, first, in the format of defining something like even defining on pen and paper. I'm not an advocate for pen and paper, but if pen and paper didn't even exist before that, that's when I advocate for it. It's like, well, did you draw this out on paper first? Like what this process is anyways?

Well, I think a lot of that comes back to the strategy side of it too. Right. Like as you're defining your strategy, and I don't think I'm speaking at a school when I say there may be a lot of these businesses that have not defined their strategy.

Oh, 100%.

So. So, like, let's figure that out. And the thing that we hear again, that I find I want to see this change is that conversation around, well, there's only one way we compete. We can compete on price. That is not true. It absolutely is not true. And you know, I have so many great examples of customers who have figured out what they're great at, what they want to be great at, and built their strategy around that, you know, and once you've nailed that down, then you start to figure out what the systems are that you need, then you can answer the questions about what technology you need. But it's all going to come back to having a strategy. And so if you're trying to, you know, get software to fix problems when you're midstream, now you're into whole change management. These businesses are not necessarily set up. They don't have the toolkits to be able to implement that. And then you see these failed implementations, um, and that's money that's wasted, it's time that's wasted that. And they don't have a surplus of either. So then that creates, I think, some frustration. It's like, well, you know, that software is no good or technology's not going to solve my problems. But I think that they started at the wrong starting point. I'm saying that right, but do you know what I mean? Like, it's, you know, they, they, they've got the order of operations wrong there.

Yeah, well, and that was, I was going to ask on that, but we kind of just touched on that. It's like when, when scaling any organization, whether it's going up to your first 20 employees, going from that 20 to 50, 50, 150 plus thousand, things like that, there's a mindset shift that has to happen. My question was going to be this. And I think we've just kind of Answered. It is like, what, what leadership quality separates those who are stuck versus those who are able to break through and scale with confidence. And I think he nailed it on the head. It's like, oh, they have a strategy, they've defined it, they have a vision, they've written it out, even if it's on paper. And they've communicated that to the organization. So everyone's rowing in the same direction and a lot of businesses stall out in growth and they often don't realize that it's, oh, I haven't defined this. Oh, I don't have a vision set for the next three years. Oh, I haven't, I haven't defined the market we're going to go capture in the next three years. And here's the ICP and here's how many organizations exist within 50 mile radius of our home office that we can service. Or I'm going to go and move to a subcontracting model because I want to break into another state. All of those things, people just like react on a whim, just there's an opportunity. Instead of like, nope, I'm going to. In my sports analogy of being a hockey player, it's like, I'm going to anticipate the puck and where that pass is coming. Right. The ability to anticipate strategically is, I think, potentially like kind of what you were just saying. It's just that's what separates people who can scale.

Well, and I think, you know, CEO to CEO here and to the audience, you know, I have to step back a lot. We're a small company and sometimes I get too many hats on. Right. We're trying to do a lot of things and, you know, I have to ask myself the hard questions. And my most important job is vision and strategy. You know, if my team don't know where we're going. Right. There's an awful lot of things that will go sideways, you know, so I have to keep my CEO hat on, you know, the tightest. And I think that isn't different in a cleaning company, even though you may be an operator as well. I think we all, you know, at different stages of business go through that juggling of hats. But. But you can't leave that one on the floor.

Yeah. And when you do, your business stalls.

It does. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you're in the doom loop, as I like to call it, where, you know, you just wake up and do it again and wake up and do it again. But when you sign up to say, I'm going to build a company. And this is moving away from the solopreneur. But when you actually do really set a goal, you know, and if, whether you're building for a lifestyle business or you're building for a successful exit.

Yeah.

You have to clear the path to find the way there.

Yeah. Yeah. And. And I've been a part of so many mentoring groups, one that I'm, I've been in for the last little while. The main mentor, he taught me an important lesson, which was like you as a, As a leader, as a CEO. And I actually said this on the podcast when we were doing it live at Isis A Business Growth strategies was your vision as a CEO has to be large enough and grand enough to encapsulate the vision of the personal lives of your team members so they, they can see it within your organization if you want to keep them around. Right. That they see a space for them being like, you know, I know when we're a couple employees large, you know, we're doing cleaning together, we get really personal. We know each other's life stories and struggles. And like, as you start breaking from that of you as a CEO, being on the front lines as well, those employees know you very intimately, very personally. You were, you were the co workers by title. Sure. That you're. You were the business owner, you were the co workers. And so that trust, that level of. I want to, I want to ride this ship with my boss, and she is an absolute incredible leader, and she has this vision as a CEO that is so grand and so beautiful that I want my vision to fall within. Within hers. I don't want to ride the ship with her. That. That's a very powerful strategy to initiate as a leader.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that's. I think there's so much space to help the business owners and the operators in our space get access to some of that kind of coaching really too. Right. Kaden? I mean, a lot of them are coming from, you know, a background where they may not have had the opportunity. This is their first time really, you know, the world of business and what that means. And it sounds like, you know, you have. And I have, I've benefited greatly from mentors and coaches who have really. And I don't, I don't think there's a level you get to that that isn't helpful. We all need somebody to kind of put the mirror in our face and help us see, you know, what's reflected back at us and, you know, to lift up. So I think this whole piece around the education is so important as well. There's a lot of good work to be done here. There's no, there's no doubt about it that.

Yeah, well, we're, we're coming up on time and I have a final question or discussion point. We've been talking about a lot of lessons that are learned from the field in our experiences working with cleaning business owners. There's, there's a constant shift here, but we, we sit in the middle of a very tough industry, especially on the frontline workforce. Very common to feel invisible, Very common to feel overwhelmed. Organizations that feel. Figure it out. I want to, I want to dive into. So my question for you is, if, if there's anything specific, maybe it's just one thing. The greatest denominator in, in some of the best organizations you worked with, how have they, as a lesson from the field, how have they set up employee engagement or employee recognition in a way that makes the field team feel visible, feel valued?

I would answer that question, I think, Kaden, less by telling you how, but telling you that they have meaning that the most successful. When I think about, if I kind of go through my Rolodex of those companies that have absolutely found scale, they have, with intention, brought their front office to their back office. They physically connect them. So it's not just through technology. They use technology, but they engage them in a way where they actually can benefit from the work. Not just the work, but the opportunities that they find in the field. So I'm thinking about just different examples of, you know, giving cleaners the opportunity to earn extra income because they've identified that there's potential to expand the contract because they see something in the space. They're in the space every day. The owner isn't. And so they create, you know, a way for that feedback to get back there. And it creates a business development opportunity for the owner. And then the other thing is, is bringing them to the office. Like, we've got these other great examples where they have, you know, whether they're monthly or quarterly pizza parties at the office and we're bringing people face to face. It's not complicated. It's actually the most basic. It's. It's the basic ways of connecting, but it's those people who, with intention, have really, like I say, connected that front and back office. They're the ones that are scaling and they're not being slowed down because they're having retention issues, you know, and hearing what, what they're dealing with, with retention versus those that, you know, don't have Trust between those two sides of their organization, it's a whole different ball game.

Yeah. I remember the first time I was doing a time study years and years ago, and it was a third shift time study. I don't know why it had to be a third shift, but it was a third shift time study. And so it was super, super late, middle of the night, and we went and we're doing a time study at a movie theater. And the. Let's just say the language in which things were used about, like, this company that we were studying for, about the back office, the home office, was just like, ooh, man. I'm sure they don't know that about their cleaning and workforce and things like that. And it just made me think that, like, an employee that has a third shift and they don't get to interact with leadership that's awake during the day, and the vision and the strategy, and all they ever do is just receive the military sergeant instructions of, like, do this. And then you get blamed if something wasn't seen through the night or something was missed. It's a pretty toxic work environment to be in. And it was obvious through the comments they were making, and I was like, I know your back office, and I actually find them to be really good people. So there's this disconnect here. And I think I loved the simplicity of, like, the pizza party is like, can you host one day a month? Hey, I'm gonna take my third shift people in during the day and show my appreciation for them, let them know that I see them, I care about them, that they're doing amazing work. Right. Goes 10 times farther than probably anyone's initial expectation of what that does to someone. So, yeah.

Yeah.

Love that story.

Yeah, yeah. It's. It's really. It's. It's not. It's not that complicated. So it's great to see what can happen when people come back to the basics around connecting with people.

Yeah. Well, this. Michelle, this has been such a fun conversation. One last question or any final nugget. One sentence. What's the one thing that you would want Issa members, the audience, listeners of Hard Refresh to takeaway from today's discussion.

It doesn't have to be that hard. There's. There's a way, there's a path, and there's support and connect with your community to find it and learn from others. That's way more than one word.

You're good. One sentence. That was perfect.

Yeah. Yeah.

Love it. Well, those of you who want to connect with Michelle, go find her on LinkedIn Engage. She'll I'm assuming you'll be at Issa as you have been in years past, and we're a few months away from that still. But, yeah, be sure to give her a follow and a listen. And in general, just those of you who are interested in perhaps joining the initiative that the Issa Innovation and Technology Committee is pursuing, feel free to reach out to any of us committee members, and we'll take a look and we'll have you join. The narrative that we're trying to push with with Issa is that we're strong when we come together and that we attack problems together as an industry, because this industry is always worth fighting for. So that's a wrap on today's episode. Michelle, thank you so much for joining Hard Refresh.

Pleasure to be here. Kaden, so great to have the time with you. Thanks.

Thank you.