More Software, More Problems? | E9 – Hard Refresh – An ISSA Podcast

Sa.

Welcome back everyone. This is another episode of Hard Refresh and we have George with us today. I'm going to give him a second to introduce himself and we'll dive right in. George, take it away. Tell us who you are, what you're doing and how you are impacting the industry.

Great pun. I do not hear that ever. I'm George Boutzales. I'm President of Impact Cleaning Services, SA 70 year old family owned and operated commercial cleaning company headquartered in Toronto, Canada. We have about a thousand employees, thousand cleaners across the country and second generation owner born into this business. I love what I do. It's a great industry. I love our company. I work with my family every day. Not much more I could ask for and happy to be here today.

That is awesome. Well, before we dive in, I'm going to have Karina do a quick control for the audience which is just upcoming events. So be thinking about two truths and a lie. That's how we like to start off. We get real vulnerable with the guests just straight up just going in. So be thinking about two truths and a lie to share personally or career wise and we'll try and have a little bit fun with that and then we'll dive into our topic. So Karina, let's do some quick control.

Yes. So we're super excited. Next week's podcast is funded or fumbled with Brian Snow from Impala Ventures. So much is happening with tech and he's going to give us an inside look in investing in tech. So super smart guy. And he's been really instrumental in helping me in the last couple of months. So I'm happy to have him on the show. And then we are going to Chicago. Chicago, I feel like has become a second home of mine because I go there so often at this point. I just love Chicago. But we, Kate and I are going to be in Chicago for the business growth series. It's June 10th and 11th. We are doing a what are you doing? Workshop and I'm going to butcher the acronym but it's acquisition, retention, expansion.

Hey, you got it. No butchering there.

Okay. I was looking at you like, oh my gosh, he's going to make this. He's going to be mad that if I butcher it. No, but we're excited and we're super excited to have George who was just telling me how many family members are actually part of the cleaning company or this cleaning team. I was like, hey, I had no idea. That's so cool.

That's awesome. Yeah. Real quick before we dive into Two truths and a lie, George. Some people, typically it goes one way or the other. And working with family and it sounds like it goes pretty awesome over at Impact in being a family business. So what do you think is culturally the key that you established that makes the family business just hum.

Yeah, great question. Very true. A lot of friends that are family businesses and everyone's experience a little bit different. I'm very grateful and lucky for the one that we have. I can't take any credit for it. I think it's a byproduct of our parents and also maybe our culture. I think what really allows us to work together effectively is we like, are really good at communicating. I wouldn't say it's necessarily like structured communication. This whole process. We just tell everyone how we feel all the time and we don't hold anything in. Like if we're pissed, we talk about it. There can be a little bit of shouting here and there. We're Greek. But honestly, I think that's the biggest thing. I always remember a story of like my brother's wife mentioned the first time she met her family at a family dinner. And we're just like yelling at each other and she's like, what did I get myself into? This family hates each other and we're just like, we just like debate everything. We talk so much and we honestly don't hold grudges. Like, it's when we come into the office, what happened outside does not get carried in. We have a goal and we have people that are responsible for. So we just have to execute and put our pride away, our egos away, and just keep pushing forward. So yeah, it's. I'm very grateful that we have that mindset and it's worked really well still here.

Awesome. I love that. It's like, check your ego out the door and that's awesome. Super awesome. Kudos to you guys because that's really hard and I've heard both sides of.

It, but I live the other side of it. By the way, I worked with my mom, who, bless her sweet soul, is the best woman in the world. But she tough to work with, hence why I don't work with her anymore. So I'm the other side of that coin.

Don't get me wrong. Like, there's days where like, we want to like kill each other. We think very differently and someone's got to make a decision. Comes the family comes to see each other every day, eight to 10 hours a day, your entire life. But also like, I will take that 10 times out of 10. Because I know that I can trust them blindly with anything. And they have the best interest of not just the company and the people here, but, like, our family's interests, my interest, and so forth. Yeah. Again, a lot of it's quite loud here and there might be some stories that our team could tell you, but, yeah, other than that, we make it work.

Yeah. Well, no, that's awesome. Well, let's. Let's transition into this. Two truths and a lie. Karina's, like, gonna put her new glasses on and, like, see right through the lies, but let's take it away.

Okay. This is tough to jot some notes down, so I'm gonna. Okay, so let me remember that. Okay. I've been fired twice from the company. I have a tattoo of a vacuum, and I speak three languages fluently.

Okay.

The obvious one seems like the tattoo of a vacuum, but that could also be, like the most unique thing, which is why it should be inserted in. So I'm like, wow, that was a good one.

I know. And I thought I was doing so good until I was just telling George and Kaden over the weekend for Easter. My brother was like, you were really terrible at the two threes and a lie. I've been watching your podcast episodes. So now second guessing how I really analyze. My first instinct was that the first one was a lie, because I do think you probably speak three languages. Your Greek and obviously English and then French probably, if not Spanish. And then the second one, you kind of said it, like, nonchalantly, like you have a tattoo of a vacuum. I don't know. So that was thinking that's probably true. I don't think you would have gotten fired twice.

But.

So I think it's the firing one. I think he does have a tattoo of a vacuum, which if you do, you know, you have to show us. Unless it's somewhere, like, very inappropriate, then I don't want to see it. But okay, Kaden, which one do you.

Think I'm going to go with?

The first one. There's family dynamics. Things might have shifted. I'm going to say the first one is a lie. Yeah, same. But yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, well, I do have a tattoo of vacuum.

Yes. I knew it. Yes.

I actually just got that, like, last weekend. It's.

Oh, my God, that's amazing.

Price vacuum. I might be the first guy to ever get a have this tattoo on his body. So that's true. I have been fired twice. And I speak fluently two languages. I understand Spanish and French, but I don't speak Them fluently dang it.

Recently.

These are like.

This is a long time awkward. Got fired today, definitely.

It was in my earlier career here, you know, young and living and all that sort of stuff and missed a few meetings and. Yeah. Got. Was made an example of. But that's a story for.

Okay, so is that. Was your dad the one that fired you or your brother that fired you? Who fired you?

My. My dad. My dad fired me. Yeah. Made an example out of me for. It was like I was like a summer student, so I was in university and, you know, out with the buddies late on a Thursday and missed a couple meetings on a Friday. And maybe it happened once more, but that. That was. Yeah, it was more of like a slap on the one was like. One was like, don't come back till you you're smart. It was like a couple days. The next one was more like a. A snap thing. Like, no, did it again. What's wrong with you? And then that was it. But I was in like my late teens. It, you know, hasn't happened.

Hasn't happened since.

Hasn't happened since we're all young ones. I'd love to hear that from your dad. Like, what actually happened from his perspective. Right. Like, he was like a little different. But. No, I'm sure. I love that this speaks to your culture. Right. Like your dad was. I just. Because he's my son, I'm not going to let him get away with it. So that's super cool.

I think I got it a little extra tough because of that reason too. And I'm the oldest of the three of us, so.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Anyways, but look at you now. It all worked out.

Look at me now. Getting tattoos, getting vacuums tattooed on me. It turned out.

That is commitment. So I actually have a tattoo of Clean Co, the product that I made. I feel like those that are really passionate. This Kaden, you know, this means that you have to get a tattoo if you really are passionate about what you do, I. E. The vacuum. I. E. Cora's look. Logo or clean codes? Logo. I'm looking at you.

The game. That's it.

Yeah, exactly. There's no going back.

That could be like Jelly roll. Just put it right on the cheek. You know who Jelly Roll is?

Oh, yeah. Okay.

Wait, you don't know who Jelly Roll is? No.

What is that?

Oh, man.

George and I are together on this.

Is it a person singer?

Yeah. Why I know him is the funniest. I think one of the funniest impressions I've seen is have you Seen the Theo Vaughn impersonation of him. Oh, my God. Okay, so you obviously know who Jelly Roll is, and he's a very distinctive, talking, very, like, fires you up. When this is done, just go on YouTube and search up Theophan Jelly Roll impersonation. He's like, right. Funniest. Maybe one of the funniest things I've ever seen. If you. If you know Jelly Roll, you'll get it.

Yeah. Trina, do you know who Post Malone is?

Yes.

Okay. Same. Just tattoos all over the face.

Okay. Okay. I literally.

Jelly Roll's a country Christian artist singer.

Oh, okay. I do. I have seen this person. I just didn't know his name was Jelly Roll. What is wrong with people? Why would he name himself that? Oh, my God. I can't.

Alrighty, well, let's get into the actual meat of amazing content. That's fun too. Actually, we got compliments last time on our last episode, Karina, when we did Roasting by AI George. I'm assuming you seem pretty involved in tech. You use ChatGPT or one of the models.

Yeah. Bounce between, like, Gemini and ChatGPT. I don't know which better. It's impossible.

Well, last. Last episode, Karina and I had ChatGPT roast us based on what it knew about us. And we did it on the show. Yeah. Anyways.

But mine was, like, kind of nice because I believe I always say thank you and please and I'm always very like, oh, my gosh, you just made my day. Like, I have a full blown conversation with my chat and Cadence was like, kind of mean. Like, I was like. But like, in the best way. Yeah. And he kept being like, bro.

Is this based on. Is this based on, like, your interactions with your life environment? Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah, very. I'm on the Karina side. I'm very nice to it because I'm just scared, like, one day, like, they're.

Going to expose everything about you and.

Anything out of it. Yes.

Me nicely to do stuff. That's my thought process.

Yeah.

100%. It's going to expose all my secrets. Every email that I've asked you to write is going to tell you.

Well, and then I texted Karina a couple days ago of Sam Altman. He talked about how Chat GPT is costing the company millions of dollars when users say please and thank you because it takes more computing power to, like, respond that way.

That's so funny.

And I texted this screenshot to Karina and we're like, look.

And I refuse to stop because I still believe in being Nice to it. I don't care what costs the money. Sorry, Sam, you just raised a bunch of money.

Yeah. All right, well, let's dive into our topic today. George brought this topic to us mo software more problems. And I love it. So before we dive into like some questions, maybe from an overview, George, what's at the top level of this topic that you're like, hey, I need to bring this to the Hard Refresh podcast.

Yeah. So it's interesting. I've kind of, I. At the highest level, I think how I, how I think about technology for all this stuff is when I got started in my career, you know, 15ish years ago, there wasn't as many tools and technologies, let's be software specific in the industry. Twenty years ago, even, you know, spending my summers here, there was a few, I'm not going to name specifics but like the all in one theme was very popular. We had always kind of shied away from it early on. Whether it was because we were naive, we didn't know whether it was because we thought how good can an ERP be that's built just, you know, for service business? Like we were, you know, weighing everything. So we decided to go against that route despite like, no. Now I know today, like most of the North American industry or a lot of gentle companies at a certain size are pretty much going that camp, right. So we kind of shied away from it and started finding like point solutions, ERP, CRM inspections, you know, early users of clean teligent. Just different things, right. Like we thought let's find the best in breed and put those together. We did that for a very long time and I don't think it like produced bad results. In fact, like we've grown year over year and got to where we are now. So it's worked. I think though now at the stage that we're getting to my I, I kind of now can see maybe some of the benefits of let's say consolidating more namely or for two reasons maybe is like really leaning into like the true best in Brina, finding the ones that are like really innovating their products rather than using like two inspection softwares or, or you know, two time clocks, whatever it is, like lean in and find the one that's going to help grow and it can shown that. So narrowing that down further, but also more getting data and information when you have it in so many places, like that's probably our biggest problem. Like because people have to put in information in two areas, you lose some, you Get a, a data silo, you know, some stuff doesn't speak to each other. So I guess I'm kind of seeing now, I guess what I, what I maybe didn't see then and I don't know it was the right decision, wrong decision, good, bad again, it shapes up differently for everybody. But I think today we're how we're thinking about our tech is like how do we consolidate and get down to like what we just absolutely need to the foundation and then kind of build up from there.

This is so timely this conversation. I love it. We've had multiple conversations, multiple stems I guess or tight like just segues from this. And I have been helping a lot of companies as of late with this exact problem. Right. It's like they have so many platforms but they don't necessarily want to have just an all in one. So one of the things that we're really being intentional about is this concept of udis so unified data integration strategies or systems and having to your point George, everything connect in one place and then being able to use the data and build analytics off of that. And so I think that's the biggest like resounding narrative is that if you are going to use a bunch of different systems and they're not integrated, you are going to have challenges of like duplicate efforts and people not understanding where to source this information or the system's not talking to each other and so that becomes super difficult. What do you think, Kaden?

Yeah, no, and obviously we've heard many things over the years from customers and it's kind of interesting. It's the industry in and of itself starts to evolve as more softwares come about and so just the tech landscape starts elevating and changing and now that you have more options, now you have tools that are better at one area than others. And so this idea of like hey, as long as there's can be seamless flow and maybe it's not an all in one system, but it's an all in one automated process right across five systems. But it doesn't matter. We have single sign on we don't have a bunch of username and passwords. Right. They our software industry for the cleaning industry is starting to kind of push that that narrative and need and it's still, it's hard because a big chunk of the industry is still such small businesses that they operate out of state of a chaos. And so they unfortunately like they kind of hold the industry back. But then you have companies like Impact that are scaling and growing and have, have matured through software models over the years. Like you guys are so much further ahead in those experiences. And so it really is going to be up to the companies like impact and beyond and even much larger in scaling that kind of set the precedence of how software should be adopted. So it's really cool that George, you guys have been on the software game for so long already and yet there's so many others that are just like entering the space. They're like, hey, we're finally coming off of pen and paper and they're demanding things from software that like 10 years ago software was solving.

Yeah.

And so in a certain way it almost like feels like a part of the industry holds software back by their request. And then there's this other part of the industry that's like very forward thinking. It's just a very interesting dynamic.

Yeah, absolutely. And one thing to add to like it again, things worked for us at different stages. Like up until a couple of years ago we were using you know, a workforce management platform and a different like payroll processing platform and you know, SmartSense. Like we had so many, I think beyond the fact that like getting information faster to your points, like making them, having them speak to each other without necessarily us having to like, you know, build APIs or connections with Zapier and all that, like if the platforms could connect, that's makes our life easier so we can focus on what we do. Well, I think to be honest, like that's, that's probably the most crucial. But again, everyone is at different stages of their journey and there's another reason if that's also driving our thought process a little bit. I think there's like a, maybe a topic we'll get into a little bit later that I can maybe highlight more. But that's, there's kind of another underlying reason too.

Well, and I was going to ask you too, like if I think through my relationship with tech specifically in this industry and like the inflection points of it, I can pinpoint to maybe five big ones. Which was the first one really the need to streamline operations and improve operations, moving away from pen and paper. Right. And the second one was then accountability and transparency. It's the time of COVID Everyone needed to essentially provide proof of service. And then we moved into what is really, I always identify it as the data influenced era. Right. So it's not data driven, it's data influence. You're leaning into data, you're having a dynamic relationship with it. And lastly where I'm at right now is this place of UDIs, which Unified Data Integration Systems Strategies. So for George, I guess my question to you is like, because this is a question, I get it from bscs all the time. Like how do you define your relationship from a stage perspective and also maturity perspective because you have a very mature relationship with tech. And like how can talk through that a little bit? Like how did you get to be so knowledgeable about it? Where did it start? How, what's that journey look like for you?

Yeah, that's a good question. Honestly, we're not geniuses. A lot of mistakes, I think I would say like a lot of wasted money, wasted time and efforts. Now I don't mean that literally because you, as you guys know, like you learn a ton. You have to get into something to learn. Like we're, we're not engineers here. Like we're janitors. I mean we, my brother and I specifically have a interest in it both from like and implementation, improving processes. Also from like an investment perspective. So we've looked at stuff for years. Our relationship with it evolved because early on we started. So let's go back to that point of like the early parts of our career where we didn't really know any better, but we knew, hey, you know, our clients want to see this in the rfp, so we should implement it because also it'll drive efficiency. As we know, like you just put software in, it's going to make you more efficient. Like you have to have the process in place. So we did that kind of first go, let's call it phase one. When we were learning and everything we put in then we like ripped out basically because we just, we didn't realize what it took. Then we went back and said, okay, now we know that we actually have the process, the right people to champion this. We want to get this information out. Maybe this is what like the efficiency would look like. We got a little bit better and then from there we're like, okay, our eyes are wide open, we can learn, we can start to see. Okay, what are we missing now? Okay, we don't have a work order system or whatever it is solution for this. So let's bring that in. And then you start adding and building. And as you know, when you don't really have a plan like then it starts to spiral a little bit. So like it's a, it's a bit of a, like a double edged sword, right? Because the best way to learn and get that, start to get that foundational knowledge, you have to just jump in and you're going to have a little bit of pain and figure it out. Hopefully you have great partners on the other end that are going to help navigate and have experienced it. And then it's like, you know the plan, you're learning, so you're kind of like trying to figure out the best way as you go. And then you maybe get to where we are now, where it's like, okay, we put this all in and then you like, oh, don't rip it out and waste all this money again. But where we are now is night and day to where we were 10 years ago. So, yes, we have to look at our business in a different way of what's going to help us go to the next plateau. And hopefully in that stage right now, the next plateau is much wider and bigger so that, you know, we can continue to scale and don't have to really do this again. And then we're going to start layering stuff on little by little as we get more sophisticated. Does that answer the question?

No, I, I definitely think you answered the question. What? So when, when do you decide again, like, based on your relationship, to build your own or keep exploring other tools? Like, when did that ever cross your mind where you're like, maybe I should just do it myself?

Oh, many times.

Yeah, many times.

Like again, when I was younger, it was more so like, how hard can it be to build technology right? Then I, then I actually founded a tech startup with two of my best friends in 2020, which was in a completely adjacent space. It was in like social media. Don't ask me how janitor end up building social media app, but that was super cool. Like, we hired a team, we built the product, we raised some capital. It was a hard but rewarding experience. After I did that, part of me is like, oh, I could probably do this for janitorial. But then when I really like dug into it and see what goes into, like running a commercial enterprise, not an app that, you know, is clicks and buttons, I'm like, this is kind of crazy. Like, you can't, I can't just build a payroll processing platform. The implications of that are nuts. So I guess to answer your question there, like, we've definitely thought about it many times. We even have conversations with dev shops and, you know, people who are CTOs, like, can this be done? And we kind of got to the, maybe the 50 yard line or like, no, like this is going to distract us from what we do best. We clean really well. We're building a janitorial company. Let's just go again. Find the smartest people, the best people who are doing something cool and different, understand our industry, and let's just partner with them and have them do the work.

So that's kind of our music to your ears, Kaden.

I mean, I've shared this so many times what, what you just described, George. There's no right or wrong, but whatever you choose, it's got to be focused. And I believe the biggest downfall of businesses are ones that can't focus. It eventually catches up to them. And so you have to, you have to understand what is a tool going to accomplish. We're going to go all in. Here's the process that it's going to begin, start to finish. Here's how we're going to handle it. Like when you, when you define that out strategically, that's what makes a business sing. And so, George, you're coming in and say, hey, I want impact to be, you know, the future size of abm, right? You know, like to have such a vision of, we're going to grow, we're going to become an elite janitorial company and we're going to scale to this point. There's so many nuances of what it means to do that, but, like, I mean, that's what it takes from a president and CEO, right? That vision of alignment and your team needs that focus. And I've, I've gone through my own history of not being focused and it affects the team in positive and negative ways on both sides of it. So focus, follow one course.

I was just about to say it. That was one of. Okay, this is a true story. One of the very first time Gayden and I got on a call together, he told me that and it like, blew my mind. I'm like, what did you say? He was like, focus, follow one course until success. And I'm like, you are the smartest person I've ever met.

I've never heard that before. That's.

I love it. Yeah, it just, I didn't create it.

This time, but so it's a great.

Point though, I think. Like, it's funny, like, beyond the technology side, it even goes down to the services we offer. I mean, how many? Every janitorial company kind of morphs into like a facility services company, which is a wraparound. A janitorial company because you want to do everything. And I mean, hell, our website says we do a million things under the sun. There's some rhyme or reason, but it's even toward the services we offer. We try to stay hyper focused. Now there's some things you bolt on that can help and, you know, improve margin, all that. And they're easy to add. But, you know, someone will come and say, hey, why don't you start a full power washing division? It's like, well, we do that, but we have preferred partners that we use. Like, why am I going to go and chase that when I have this business with recurring revenue and there's 90% of commercial property around the world largely outsources their cleaning? I don't need to go chase that to make more money. I just need to focus more, get better at this and find more customers here. And that's what I'm good at. I think beyond the technology side, I think maybe it's maybe a downfall of some companies. They want to try and get everything to bring more money when you probably make more effective just doing the one thing that you really.

Yeah. One of the things that I really understood very early on is the discipline that it requires to build tech. And so we used to do this innovation process primarily with the prioritization matrix. So we used to weight things and so we would define the problem and then understand the weights and then score it. And so we would put that in our backlog. And then once we were ready, we're like, okay, are we focusing on the right stuff based on our quantitative and qualitative methodology? And it really helped us direct the ship because I was always someone that came in was like, oh my gosh, we can do artificial intelligence and readers here and beacons here. And Chase used to be like, karina, stop that. And I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, we have to be more disciplined. And so it really helped because you have to caden to your point, like, you have to identify the goal. You have to state or not the goal, the problem. First identify the problem. Like, what are you actually solving for? And then it'll help you stay focused in tech and in service. And I will just add too, Like, I think it's so funny, George, as you're talking, we as this industry do do that. When people ask us if we could do power washing or window cleaning, we always say yes, right? We're always like. Because I think the service industry as a whole is based on serving. And so to serve is to say yes, in my opinion. And I think those that understand that will always be creative about, okay, maybe I can't. I don't have an employee, but I have a partner that can help you and we can serve together. So just wanted to add that little Carrot.

Yeah, good point.

Yeah, let's, let's, let's dive into this a little bit more. And not even just in the tech side, although this is a tech podcast, but when you're evaluating software. So George, actually, Karina, correct me if wrong, George is the first building service contractor we've had on the podcast.

Yes, he is.

Yeah. So, so we've, we've had, you're the ninth, the ninth guest, and we've had other software vendors, tech people, but this is the, the podcast is for, this Issa podcast is for these building service contractors and facility managers that are trying to implement tech. So I would love to actually dive into deeper the way you think about evaluating software. The criteria and when you're about to introduce a tool like what goes on behind the scenes, give, give the industry, the audience, like, the insight from impacts evaluation. How do client demands affect software choices? Because that happens so much and we're always, we're the service industry, so we're trying to say yes to whatever they tell us to do, but sometimes they require certain software tools that don't align with your tech stack. So, like, how do you, how do you handle this?

Great question. I'll answer that, like, in like two parts. I'll talk about first how we, how we evaluate, and then I'll talk about the client, what the clients are kind of asking and that stuff. Our evaluation process today, again, a lot of trial and error to get here, but there's a couple foundational principles, I guess. Try to stick to as best we can. And don't get me wrong, it's tough. You get excited by shiny objects and do this new that you're like, oh, this could make me, you know, a little bit more money or save some time. So it's, it's easy to kind of just lose sight of the force of the trees, they say. But the things that fundamentally we try to do, first and foremost is like, how simple is this technology? And I think one of the things that gets overlooked or I don't know if it's overlooked, but like, one thing I find is a lot of software is built are for B2B, right? Like we're a business and it's not like a B2C necessarily, but what we look for is, is it fully B2B or have they taken some best practices from like consumer. Have they made this as simple as possible with as few steps as possible to get the task done, basically, and to maybe make that even simpler? It's like if we're going to implement something that our cleaners are going to use supervisors like the front line. He's like, how much training do they need to figure it out? Because if I got to spend hours and our managers spend hours and all this onboarding like it is, I almost bet dollars of donuts it's not going to work. If we can get onboarded in a couple days, a day, two days, a few trainings, I think it's going to. The odds of success are diminishing, I guess, day by day as it goes. So that's first and foremost. If they're. If my cleaner's life is easier, my manager's like, or, you know, field supervisor is easy. I'll figure it out. Like I, you know, I can figure out most apps are down in the app store. Most of my team here, even if they're not tech savvy, they can figure it out. So that's number one, is the cleaner going to figure it out? It's going to be easy for them. Number two would be like, how well. How well does the software fit into our business as is. I know not everything's perfect. Like, you have to. Even stuff built just for janitorial, there's going to be taking kind of broad best practices or kind of what the industry thing as a whole or creator's point. Like, maybe they're prioritizing what appeals to the most and there's going to be some edge cases. But does it understand the language of our business? Does it understand the inputs, how our job costing would work, or how our inspection specifically work? That's an interesting one, right? Like an inspection is a theory, a checklist. But I've seen so many apps that it's like they just. It's so overly. It's a little too simple that it's not capturing the things that we need, the right scores, understanding different standards in the industry, and those are the two probably the most important. And then now, as we get bigger security is a big one. Definitely thinking about, like, where's our data being stored? How is it being stored for our purposes? But also we do deal with like some union accounts. So when we put in a new workforce management app, they got to clock in. You know, the union might say, hey, where's the information going? Do you know it's safe? There's financial information tied to that. So, yeah, I think just kind of put a bond. And there's obviously a lot of other things we want to consider. Those three are the most important. And I guess maybe the last one would be what's their Customer success look like in their team. Like, can I pick up the phone and get ahold of somebody or am I going to be like the dial pad and chasing someone and platform goes down. I can't get a hold of someone for like a day, a week. That's a big problem. Yeah, I'll pause on those. I think those are kind of the key ones.

Yeah, those are good ones.

Yeah. So let's, let's talk about. So as a building service contractor, you're coming in trying to win accounts. So what happens when a client demands, hey, I need you to get your work order system that's the same as ours or I you have to use our system for this, which then and a part of it is derived from clients sometimes just want to own their own data and force the contractor to use their system, which then pulls you out of the system of your choice for the rest of your operations. And now you don't have the data for that one account. Like, let's, let's talk about this problem. And there may not be like a solution today, but as data becomes more and more available and people want ownership and rights to the data, people want to claim ownership and force service and vendors to be like, nope, you use our system, you don't get to use yours.

Yeah, it's a good point. I would say that there's definitely clients that want us to use their platforms. A lot of those would revolve around maybe the work order and task management type stuff, as you guys probably know. Like, yeah, something comes to the building. Angus Yard, whatever, whatever the platform is. And we, and we do use those in all the buildings that we have. It'll get integrated with the cell phone we provide. So it information stays with them. But what clients are kind of asking today is more so like where people are. And when Karini mentioned about COVID like knowing the space utilizations, learning blank. You know, people clearly, clients clearly want more information. They want to be able to call you and know immediately. And if you don't have that answer, they're going to say, well, why you told me you have this. So you know, you got to make sure that you're what you're telling me can do, you have. And again they want it for their purposes. Now one thing I am seeing is or one thing I haven't seen changes. They still aren't taking so much ownership of it like it's still in the BSC largely to bring it forward. Tell them how it's going to derive the value. Tell them what they can have access to, but you still kind of bear the cost and do kind of the work for it. That's what we're seeing there in terms of like how we meet the client expectation and how we kind of, you know, implement these things to make sure that we're successful and can win more business. It's interesting. This is the point that I made earlier that I said I would wait till later to discuss because I'm seeing I've seen different things in the industry as a whole to maybe paint a picture like let's call it pre Covid, you know, it was a lot of like a push for innovation. Tell us what you do differently, you know, what are you using? Sensors, workforce management, mobile, whatever. How can we get more transparency then? In Covid, it was like, we want to find some efficiency, so we want to know where people are and when. And Karina's nodding. So you probably know like a lot of these sensors and stuff like that. And then coming out of it, it was like, well, we need to find savings because people still aren't really back and we're like now in a pinch and mortgages are up and all this stuff. So just tell us where the savings are. They still have a section of what technology. But it's not like a savings by technology. Just tell us where the savings are and if you have this. Great.

Exactly.

That's very interesting to me. Right. Because if it was so important and it was going to drive all these things, like, why are we kind of disregarding. Because cleaners can clean as fast as they. They're not going to run faster. A lot of this comes from implement this technology, but when there's a bit of an added cost, it's like, do they, you know, do we. Who absorbs it and that sort of thing. I, I guess what I'm getting at is it's. It's kind of hard to navigate this world and they want different things and the market's dictating what they have to do. So to kind of bring this point home, even we're thinking about technology a little bit differently now. So when I said we're now kind of consolidating a little bit and limiting technology, it is for getting simpler, finding the best, but also because we're seeing the market shift a little bit, and if our clients aren't willing to necessarily pay, they want savings. Well, maybe this is an opportunity for us to take advantage of that. Not to say we're not going to use tech, but can we reduce some things that were nice to haves that maybe won't impact the perception and then we can improve the foundation and move back up. So on that front, maybe a little bit of a strategic kind of play for us.

I love that you brought this up. Like, I actually we. So the last four years that I spent with Pioneer or the four years that I spent Pioneer, you saw an enormous amount from property management companies large, big and small, right? So jll, cbre, Cushman and Wakefield, all of them leaning in heavily on tech and saying, we want innovation, we want this, we want that. Oh, but by the way, we don't want to pay for it. We want you guys to use it and present it to us, but we don't want it as part of our line item. Right. We just want you guys to really embrace and show us how you're using it for a company like Pioneer. George, to your point, like, it was, it was okay because we built our own tech and a lot of times it was part of our offering. The quora came with Janitorial. But then as you're talking through that, one of the things that like really stood out to me is like janitorial companies that are kind of struggling with to figure out what products to use and what not to use and how to like this whole relationship with tech. One of the things that I like stood out was like most property management companies will make you use their own, their prism, their Angus, their building engines, whatever. And that's a zero cost, right? They don't charge you for that. And so if you're proposing to bring another tool that is at your cost. So to like kind of like memorial as a conversation about like more platforms, more problems. If you look at it from that perspective, a janitorial company is. Can use a tool that their client is saying to use at zero cost or try to bring their tool and bring innovation, which right now a lot of times to what's happening, that's not really the narrative right now. And I'll also follow suit with your. With that sentiment is like the last year within Pioneer, we saw large property management companies going back out to bid because ownership was putting pressure on them to get low bid. And they don't care about technology unfortunately anymore. They just want cost savings. These buildings are sitting empty. So large portfolios, we're talking like 18 to 36 building portfolios. They're going back out to bed and they do not want high bid. High bid means tech, high means brand activation, timing. It's just, it's unfortunately they won't cost savings. And to Your point, George? They don't really care how you're doing it. They just want to see it. They don't really focus on the tech right now.

Yeah, it's the end. The end. It's the line item.

What's.

What is the dollar and decimal of what this is going to, to cost me? And some. Sometimes it's a balance. Sometimes you try and upsell like your tech, if that's going to bloat your costs or it's going to do the other end and it's going to make you super efficient. They're going to be like, hey, that's all great. Did that contribute to the line item being a cheaper thing? You know, if you can map that internally, that's your roi. Understanding of your own tech doesn't mean your clients necessarily care about that at the level of detail that you should. So I love that.

One little point on that. At the end of the day too, it matters what I guess you, what your goal is. The company. Right. Like we, we still understand where the world is going at high level. I'm not a genius, but I understand where it's going and that we can't just like get rid of all our data and then start from ground zero. So even to Greena's point like that, what you said, you nailed it on the head. We're seeing it still to this day and it's probably going to continue for some time with the major players. We still are going to bear that cost for certain things to make sure that we're still at the forefront. When it goes back to good times again, you know, we're ahead. So that's an investment that we're willing to make because we're ultimately optimizing for the long term. So, you know, to each their own, I guess. Some people want to make sure they make more money today. Others want to say, you know what, we'll sacrifice some now for, for the, hopefully the wins later.

Yeah, yeah. Well, we're just about out of time. So we have one final question for you, George, and that's basically just the gold nugget. The advice, the one gold nugget you want to leave the audience today about managing multiple software systems, software overload, inefficiencies of software. What's the one gold nugget that you want people to remember?

That's a good one. I guess the best advice I could give is hopefully people can avoid the mistakes I made. And like I've spent multiple six figures wasted on technologies that I've ripped and replaced. I think take your time. When you're implementing something, whether you're new and have. Whether you're new or you have experience, like, really take your time. Spend a lot of time vetting the company you're going to be working with, the platform, you know, explore everything. And most importantly, when you're evaluating, understand, like, the pain you're solving. Like, how can the pain you're solving and how do you measure what a win or what success looks like? I just. I mean, dollars is important, but time, efficiencies, morale, whatever it is, like, know how to measure that and make sure the person you're partnering with, the company understand what you're trying to solve for and they're viewing the same way. So you're pulling in the same direction. You're trying to, you know, solve the same challenges. It will make your life a lot easier. Yeah. Find people that are innovating, that are doing cool stuff and staying at the Leading Edge.

Awesome mic drop.

Seriously, our whole episode today went so fast. That means that we're having a really good time. Yeah, that's what that means. You're welcome.

You're like, that was all me.

No, that's not right. I'm just saying it was fun. It was a great topic. I love it.

Awesome. Well, George, it has been an absolute honor and pleasure to have you on. Thanks for joining us, for sure. For those of you listening, go give George a follow on LinkedIn. He's also doing things and sharing his learnings in public. Not just on the podcast today, but he's constantly posting and sharing his learnings, writing articles, amazing stuff. So go give him a follow and a, like, help him out, give advice, give feedback back. Because as Ricky always says over at Route Stronger together. Right, so that's a wrap on today's episode. Thanks for joining.

Thanks, guys. Thanks, George.

Thanks.