Modernize Your Systems & Processes | COO at 15Five Jim Morrisroe (Podcast 208)

Gen zers and millennials are not going to put up with corporate politics and CEOs that aren't vulnerable and they're not going to put up with being told what to do unless they felt seen and heard.

Our guest today is CEO, alliance member and CEO of 15.5, Jim Morris Rowe. As a technology executive and recovering CEO with over 25 years of experience in the software and computer hardware industry, Jim is a results focused operator with a successful track record of building high growth companies. Jim has a talent for developing winning strategies, bringing great products to market, executing against sales goals, controlling costs, deploying automated systems and efficient processes. He also has a track record of building real company value, resulting in four successive consecutive company M&A exits, creating over 1 billion in shareholder returns. Jim, welcome to the Second in Command podcast.

Thank you, Cameron. I think I helped write that intro on my LinkedIn a few years ago, so it's good to hear it again.

I'm having dinner tonight with the guy who wrote my bio about 15 years ago and he called me, what was it he said? A world renowned speaker. I'm like Christopher, I've only spoken in two countries. He goes, well, you're world renowned to me. Every time people read the bio I just laugh that it's Christopher that wrote it. I'm excited to talk to you for a couple reasons. One, I'm very enamored with the business of 15 and I've been around the company since I think the very, very inception because Dave Hassell, who's the founder and CEO of 15Five, I think he even may have heard the concept of a 155 report from me speaking at an event at MIT and my mentor who's being groomed as the CEO at Starbucks talked to me about 155 reports and then I think Dave built the entire company. I can't take credit for anything past.

That, but do we have a PIA for your invention? Well, we'll have to.

No, it wasn't, it wasn't my idea. I've never had a unique idea. I've talked about that actually, that my R and D stands for ripoff and duplicate. But I'm excited to learn about the 15Five business and why you're involved. I'm also really intrigued as to what it was that you saw to get involved with a guy like Dave, who I've known forever in a day. And he's a wonderful human.

So why don't you talk to us.

About a little bit about your backstory first and then we'll get into that.

Yeah, sure. So I think as we highlighted in my background, I've done a lot in software, or I like to think I have over the last 25 years. And from the beginning of COVID so, you know, a couple two and a half years ago to a little less than that, up until about a year ago, I was out of the workforce or out of the formal tech workforce. And I kind of had vowed to myself that although I didn't have enough money to retire, given my lifestyle, that I wasn't going to go back into tech, that there was some other calling for me. I was doing a lot of service work with the homeless community in the Bay Area during the first year of COVID delivering meals and doing some kind of life coaching to addicts. And although that's not an economically fulfilling job, it was human fulfilling in a major way. And I really connected with myself during that process in a pretty meaningful way too. So when I took the first recruiter call that I had taken in 14 months, it was the first call I picked up. It was David's recruiter and this company that I had never heard of, 15Five was looking for a COO. And obviously I know the role, I know the job. I didn't know the company and I didn't know why I took the call, but I did. And something just clicked about Samantha, the recruiter's pitch. And I took a call with David and I took the call with the intention of turning him down. Very quickly. Something kind of magical happened with just kind of the intersection of where my kind of heart and soul were at the time. Given my service work and the mission that David was on, which is to create a new paradigm in how people come to work. And I call it the Monday morning effect. David calls it kind of human thriving. But that's the desire to want to jump out of bed on Monday morning and get after it. And that psychologically is really complicated for us as humans. And the 155 products and our education and training services are all designed to create that effect for people and to help companies enhance performance by focusing on the humans there. And just over the course of meeting the team and meeting David, I came out of half baked retirement and literally I've jumped out of bed every day for the last 14 months since I've been here.

I totally get it too, and I get the probable connection with him. So I'm curious what it was that had you even consider, because you've been the CEO a few different times with companies in the tech space, why would you even consider going into the COO role. And not that I diminish either of them. I mean, Sheryl Sandberg has been COO of Facebook for 15 years, and she doesn't want a CEO role. What was it that intrigued you to go that route?

Yeah, so I think I've learned enough about my zone of genius or pseudo genius, where I just can't see the playing field further than 12 months out. I just don't have the entrepreneurial vision or the product insights or even maybe the mental capacity to see things 36 months from now. But I have really good X ray vision to see things quarterly and for the next 12 months, wants. And so that realization, that happened sometime over the last five years. Plus, the CEO job's kind of shitty. It's lonely, and it's. You know, it's. You don't really have your crew, and that's. I empathize deeply with David, and I remember how I felt, and my job really is to help him feel less lonely. But it's something that, yeah, maybe I'll do again, but I just think I'm a much better second in command than I am a CEO because of those things.

Can you say that again or not? Say it again. But you said to help the CEO feel less lonely. I've often said that the job of the COO is to shine the spotlight on the CEO, to kind of make them iconic. But walk us through the whole feeling them less lonely part, because you're right, and it's intriguing.

Yeah, there's just this, you know, whether it's your board, whether it's your management team, although you have this trust and companionship and shared execution with your management team, at the end of the day, they're still your employees when you're the CEO, and so their personal needs financially come out, and that. That causes just a situation where everyone that you engage with needs something from you, and everyone on the surface is your partner, but they're also, at the end of the day, your employee or your constituency. And for me personally, that just created a loneliness that I didn't have as a senior executive where I had, you know, I had eight peers. And as a CEO, you have no peer. And that, to me personally, created a little bit of just loneliness, isolation. And I think all CEOs feel it. And what I've told David is, hey, look at me as your partner as best you can. And let's keep mindful that I am your employee, and at the end of the day, you make the final decision, but let's keep this thing as As a partnership of equals, the best we can because it helps both of us and ultimately helps the company.

Oh yeah, you're touching on something. So Harvard wrote an article years ago called the misunderstood role of the coo. And one of the seven distinct types of chief operating officers they uncovered was the partner role. And that's kind of what you're talking about. Dave, I think is in forum in ypo and he's got all these entrepreneur groups he's a part of. But you're right, he can't completely be open and vulnerable with the board. He's got to be a little bit guarded. And he can't open up to his other C level executives and say he's scared or worried or overwhelmed or doesn't know. But what makes it okay for the CEO to almost be in the two in a box with the CEO where the other C level executives are just on the org chart? Like why are we different?

Yeah, that's a great question. I think on the surface we're not different unless we position ourselves to be different. And I've had the opportunity to really build a bond with Dave, although we've only met in person like three or four times because this has been a. We're a remote first company and obviously because of the times, but we've been able to transcend the executive bond to be very, very human bond. And then we've drawn really clear roles and responsibilities, swim lanes for each other. We're super unique in that. Maybe not unique, but unique personalities in that we are radically different. David, I talked earlier about how I can't see things in 36 month increments. David really can't see things in quarterly or 12 month increments. So it's a perfect partnership. We have like a personality alignment. And as long as we just remember that and have complete trust in each other, I think we're able to kind of kind of break through that challenge that we talked about.

I feel like you've been eavesdropping in on the phone calls I've been having recently. I'm working on a book right now called Two in a Box where about the CEO, COO partnership and talking about the roles and responsibilities and clear swim lanes and talking about the trust that's being developed. Like our two key selling points I've been talking about with somebody who's helping me on the book. Can you walk us through how you decided what the roles and responsibilities were for you and what they were for him and how you kind of divided and conquered there?

I think if we look at this timeline view that I've mentioned a couple times, I really am responsible for everything for the next 12 months, including strategy and vision of that window. And so all of the go to market teams at 155 work for me. So I have sales, marketing, customer success. I have amazing C level leaders for those teams, but they report to me and we collectively make up our executive team. I also have finance because we're measuring things quarterly and annually. And so our amazing CFO sale works also for me. And then David is responsible for vision, culture of the company, things that transcend years and years, and also product and engineering one because yes, we can make quarterly product decisions, but it's better if we think about those quarterly decisions under the umbrella of years or of a long term strategy. And David's also a former engineer and has a passion for the bits and bytes of 15:5. I do too. But it's just a good swim lane for him to own. And then that's probably where we have the most intersection and sometimes conflict is, okay, what bets are we making that are two years out and how much capacity does that take from our current quarter ability to make a few bets as well. And we're still working through that most days it's great. But that swim lane is still kind of a little to be determined.

It's interesting. I remember meeting with Boris Wirtz, who is one of the founders of ABE Books. They sold for about a billion dollars to Amazon. He was helping us with our product development back at the 1,800 GOT Junk days and they really did struggle over that as well as how do you decide what parts of the product to be obsessing about and thinking about? What's your return on people and time and money there versus like let's get some shit out the door to keep our current customers really happy and to, you know, improve, improve the core business. Yeah, I like that you've. You guys have really identified the areas that he's passionate about and has that deep expertise. And then also it's interesting that I think about 30% of COOs have finance report to them and 70% don't. And it's really what makes our role unique is we get to take the areas that we're just really good at and we love working on, but we don't have to take the areas that we suck at. Were there areas of the business that you're just like, I'm not good at that. Can you handle that?

I mean, I hit on it earlier. The long term product Vision, this ability to see the future, to see the intersection of secular trends with the amount of work that it takes to build a software product that's kind of skating to the puck or whatever that hockey analogy is, you know better than I do that it's just not something that I can see. I do think I have a crystal ball to see things Certainly, you know, 9 12, six months out. But the set of trends around where a product needs to be, it's just really not where I'm fantastic at. And so that's a natural swim lane. And then entrepreneurial passion. We have the ability to change the world at 15, 5. And David leads with that from his heart. He wants us to be a big, successful public company, but first and foremost he wants to help people thrive at work and he wants to help HR leaders create environments within their companies that help their employees thrive at work for the benefit of increased performance. That's what David wakes up every day to do. I wake up every day to make sure that we have the best quarter and best financial outcome that we can have this year. And those are super complimentary. But I'm just not, I'm not as, as passion oriented when I get out of bed.

Yeah, I get it. What about the recruiter call? If we go back to that recruiter call and you said there was, what was it that she told you about the business that intrigued you?

How did she set the hook? So I think I mentioned I was in the middle of this and I still do a lot of this work, but I was doing it full time for a couple of food providers that had housing and shelter and were providing food in kind of a soup kitchen style fashion for the homeless in the Bay Area and their entire world was disrupted and they had to shut down their kitchens and they said, okay, how are we going to do this? And let's pack meals up in our trucks and we're going to go out into the encampments and build relationships and deliver meals. And that at first I thought maybe I would have a nonprofit technology component to help coordinate service providers or somehow get involved with state and local governments so that they could be more effective. Finally realized that that's a great personal passion, but to scale that is impossible for me to do. I just didn't have the patience to deal with that intersection of nonprofits and state level governance and all of those things. But it had created this service oriented mindset and how I felt about service where a mission obsessed company that was helping people from a different spectru but still Humans with hearts and goals and souls and passions, helping them at work connect to their manager, connect to work in a new and improved way, and to jump out of bed on Monday mornings to embrace their careers. And that just something where I was at the time and how the recruiter framed our mission and vision just clicked. And again, I was ready to blow it off. But then David and his passion and heart for it all just really reinforced it over the course of a couple months of interview.

And I'm curious on the mission obsessed side because you've mentioned it a few times and I've never thought of 155 as that kind of a company. I definitely, I guess, see David as wired that way and very kind of a heart centered leader. Is your org chart upside down where the CEO is at the bottom and you guys are all kind of supporting the people and supporting the team? Is that where the mission base comes in or is it really mission based about helping your clients? Can you explain?

Yeah, it's both. I mean, we definitely eat our own dog food, but our mission is to help our clients. Right. So the original 155 product is this really simple software tool that allows employees to tell you how they felt at work this week on a simple scale of 1 to 5, and then to report back how their week went and what they need help with to their manager. This is something you and I have done through one on ones and structured communications. But we have to realize that 90% of managers, especially first time managers, have no formal manager training and probably only took one psychology course in college. And so the 155 product allows our most important employees, our frontline managers, to create a little bit of discipline to connect with their employees. The psychology of that alone changes how our employees feel at work. It changes how we feel at work at 15 5. But our customers get that experience. Then you add in what we do with recognition and one on one templates. And then now we have formal engagement surveys as part of our product and we have performance reviews that we call performance reviews with a heart that allow people to actually not create this baggage, that psychological baggage that performance reviews create. All of this is packaged up as a set of tools for HR leaders to start to create a more human environment with their managers and their tooling. And that's our mission. And David's obsessed with it. Yeah, he wants 300 or so 15 fibers to. To be the example of this, but we want our customers to feel that too.

That makes a lot of sense. All right, I want to go back to the tool itself. Covid must have been great for you guys. I would think that where companies are no longer in person and around all their employees, they're looking for tools like this to be able to help them, to grow them, sadly to manage them. But I don't think that's what this tool is really for. Is that true?

It has been true, but it's bigger than that. It's a really, really complicated time to be a chief people officer and Covid is part of that. There are other longer term trends that are probably causing even more complexity. We've heard about the great resignation and that's really the result of what's happening with this generational shift in the workforce. So as millennials and gen zers have come into the workforce, there's a different set of motivators that they have and the different types of things they look for in their jobs and in their companies. And that trend, plus Covid, plus all of the DEI and work that we all have to do, have really forced this chief people officer from a tactical role to a very strategic role. The Chief People officer has gone into the boardroom and at many points is the right hand seat to the CEO because of all these trends. And so we have by far benefited from these trends. But that's only part of it. We're here to help those chros kind of navigate that as well.

Yeah, it's interesting. I really see this whole great resignation as awesome because I think so many employees were working for shitty companies, for shitty bosses, and they were driving 40 minutes each way for that privilege. And now they realize they don't have to. And I think it's going to really have to up the game. The average company can no longer be average. They're either going to change or die. And I think it's going to really raise the culture for the kind of the mean, I guess. I think it's going to be really strong.

Yeah, it's called great resignation in the papers, but we call it the great reshuffling because it allows companies that are doing this well to really revamp their employee base. And there's amazing talent that's available right now if you have the right culture.

Yeah, it's pretty extraordinary. You kind of hit the nail on the head when you talked about that. Most managers have never really been given any skill development around running one on one meetings or doing coaching or, or delegation or, or just leading people or situational leadership. They've had no depth around that. I actually launched a course last year called invest in your leaders for the sole purpose of giving what I think are the 12 core leadership skills that every manager and leader needs to excel in. Do you guys bundle any training into your the 15Five platform? Are you thinking about that yet as a way to grow people as well?

We do.

We.

We launched in Q3 of last year a product called Transform Manager Accelerator, and that is a subscription training and coaching product not focused on directors and executives, although we have some customers that target those titles. But really it's a coaching and training offering just focused on frontline managers. And we use it to upgrade, help customers upgrade all of the soft skills of those of those leaders. But we also tie it into best practices so that it reinforces the software and the tooling as well. Of course. And it's, it's very, very quickly has, has become, you know, 30, 40% of our. Of our business and in a very quick amount of time because there is so much, there is so much draw for that. There's just nothing there that really cohesively addresses that frontline manager.

Yeah, I think it's really smart. I've always said the more that you grow your people, the more they'll grow your business. And I don't think we've done enough, especially for that next generation of leaders or the emerging leaders too. You talked about trust being built between you and the CEO. You and Dave. How should CEOs or COOs go about building trust with each other from both sides? What can a CEO do better to build trust with their coo? And then what can a CEO do better to build trust with their CEO?

Yeah, I mean, probably if you were to look at the textbook of two people, CEO and coo, how do you build trust? We don't have it as natural as you think. Because what it takes for any relationship to build trust is vulnerability. And it takes a commitment to listening, a commitment to not being right. And, you know, some of those, you know, vulnerability and listening and admitting when you're wrong. These are not traditional leadership, you know, skills. And so really you gotta. And it should. They should be. I don't believe in that. But when you look at the, you know, traditional folks that have, that have grown into these jobs, man, you don't listen enough and you're not vulnerable enough. And you don't say, I know enough and say, help me understand this better.

Enough.

And David naturally is a vulnerable, inquisitive human, and I have learned to be better at that. And I take his lead on this. And we really, we really have gotten there quickly because of our starting point. Really, his starting point and then my ability to want to be more vulnerable and connected.

Do you think it I agree completely. Do you think it is more of a description or an example of a leader in a mid sized organization that vulnerability is a strength and do you think that changes sadly when you get into the big corporate world where it feels like people get more political and vulnerable becomes a weakness. When you're plus, let's say you're plus 1,000 employees or plus 3,000 employees, does vulnerability start to become a weakness, do you think?

Sadly, I think traditionally it has. But let's go back to that conversation we just had about the great resignation and what it takes to build companies moving forward. Gen Zers and Millennials are not going to put up with corporate politics and CEOs that aren't vulnerable and they're not going to put up with being told what to do unless they felt, seen and heard. And so yeah, for sure there's 80% of leaders out there in thousand person companies and bigger that aren't ready for this. But if they don't change fast, the world's going to change.

Now I heard a great quote years ago, it might have been on a Nike T shirt, but it's no, the Nike one I saw was somewhere right now someone is practicing and when they beat you in head to head competition, they'll beat you. The quote that I was thinking of was if the rate of change outside your business is greater than the rate of change inside your business, you're out of business. And that's so true on every level right now that it used to be whoa, technology or going online is going to change now. It's like the game has changed, the way businesses run has changed. And yeah, it's adapt or die.

Absolutely. Look at how many businesses were, were taken out with just this Internet era and Covid and but this, this human psychology and this generational shift. I know you have college age kids and you know my boys are, are brilliant and they're competitive and but they're just wired differently than I was because of the era that they grew up in. And if we don't accept that and figure out how to harness that, we will be out of business just as quickly as if we missed the Internet era as well.

Yeah, it's very true. I gave David some unsolicited advice four years ago and I'm glad he did not listen to me because I think I was wrong. Now I told him to make 15:5 simple and to keep it simple and to not add products and not Add features and not listen. It was basically don't keep listening to the enterprise customers and adding more to the tech stack because it'll overcomplicate the model that we need to teach salespeople how to sell what we've got and not say that I can sell it. If we have these next three things. How do you balance that? How do you balance, you know, keeping it simple versus constantly evolving and adding to. And. And does it get over complicated or.

Yeah, it does. And to some extent, you know, 155 platform and that's one of the things we worked on last year and we still have more work to do. 155 platform is a lot. And any customer over 50 or 100 employees cannot digest it all at once. And so we actually broke the platform up into discrete solutions. You can still buy it as a platform and many of our customers do to go on a journey with us. But we want the bite size to be digestible in a quick time. We call it time to value. We want to make sure that first experience gets to value fairly quickly. And so. And you're right, and we had to also, because different customers have different starting points. Some customers want to start with their manager up, leveling and coaching. Some customers want to start with performance reviews because they're dealing with compensation during the great resignation. Some customers don't even have a baseline of engagement and need to get kind of that psychological survey out to the Org. And so breaking it up allows us to kind of start at the customer's pace without asking them to swallow the whole pill.

That makes sense. Instead of saying, okay, here's our seven different software products. Like, you don't have to use Microsoft Word and Excel and PowerPoint and Outlook. You can just use Outlook if you want. You can just use Excel if you want. And then you kind of do cross sell to them later or.

That's right, we allow you to unbundle if you want to buy that way and then we will take you on. We call it a journey. Ultimately it is cross selling, but we'll take the customer on a journey to add more value over time.

I don't remember the company, but years ago 155 got into a fairly major organization and they were in like the finance department. How do you. Maybe it was Starbucks or somewhere. But how do you get. If you're in like one department, how do you build out like a virus inside of that company into the big enterprise? Like you're not going to try to sell all 10,000 people to do X, how do you get in with 50 people and then kind of grow. I guess a virus is the wrong terms. I'm sure you have a better one.

Virus and software companies are usually not great. Yeah, it's a good point. So the original 15:5 product was sold to CEOs and general managers that wanted to create this connected workforce independent of what HR was doing. And so we still have thousands and thousands of customers, most of them smaller, that are, that are and those, those purchases are led by those general managers. And we have been somewhat successful being able to go lateral within an organization or going from that work group to hr. But we did kind of flip the, the model on its head and realize that the HR pain and the HR buyer is. There's just so much opportunity right now because of these trends that we want to be more focused on where we start with customers. And so we really have gone from kind of two buyers, two primary buyers, the general manager and the HR leader to one. Not that we've abandoned our general managers. We still want them to find the product. But we just got very HR centric in the last year and it's just because we can't serve two masters. And there's just so much opportunity with HR right now because of these challenges that we just got really focused on it.

It's almost like the Xerox spin cell. The situation problem implication needs payoff. HR knows what the problems are. You can kind of build it out. Then you show 15:5 as the solution to all their problems. Whereas OPS doesn't see any of this as problems. They're focused on other stuff. And now you're trying to sell something they're not, they're not trying to fix. That's really interesting.

And HR in the past was a, you know, a GNA function that didn't have a lot of, didn't have a lot of juice. Right. And now they've. That leader has been thrust into the most strategic partner in many ways that the CEO has.

This is not our dads or moms or grandparents HR division anymore is used.

To be, hey, collect the taxes and.

Make sure we don't get sued.

And it's totally different than that.

Yeah. Yeah, that's intriguing. That's really. That's super interesting actually. That, yeah, that's like got me spinning right now. That's really interesting. I've got a. We have an event right next in three weeks for our co alliance and it's all around sales, marketing, funnels, automation, joint ventures. I'm going to bring this in as a discussion topic around, around who who we're selling to, and is HR the better path? Talk to me about two more questions. One is, how many employees does 15five have now? And your last cash raise, because I know you guys have raised money.

Yeah, we raised money in 2019, and we're at just about 275 employees.

So when you go from the 100 to 300 mark, politics tends to creep into the organization. And how are you dealing with that?

We haven't dealt with it perfectly, but what we needed to do, and I've talked about a lot of things we did over the last year, but we upgraded our executive team. So I'm new, our CMO is new, our Chief Product Officer is new, our chief Customer Officer is new, and we just hired a new senior VP of engineering. And so what my concept is to deal with this is to one, make sure that there's as little daylight between the eight of us, including David and Shane, our other founder, Nazar, our cto, make sure there's no daylight between us. And it sounds cliche, but the Lincioni 5 dysfunctions worked perfectly for us and used to be a coach with some of this stuff. And so we've run through that as our framework and it's worked perfectly. We got trust, we got alignment, we got commitment to our goals, and we have nice clearing conversations when we think each other's full of shit. So that's working. Working from there. I'm like, okay, the faster that we can create many CEOs within each of your orgs, the better. So we're really kind of breaking the company up into these functional areas and letting instead of David, do all hands. Let each of these functional areas run their big tent team meetings as best we can. We still have all hands meetings on Mondays and we're transitioning, but I want the personalities in the that run each of those departments to start to take over the big tent leadership.

I love that. And I'm going to flip my second last question now based on that with each of the big executives. And that's the other thing that happens between 100 and 300. You all of a sudden have a management team at 100, and it's maybe your first leadership team, but they're not really the truly skilled seasoned. And when you get to the 300, you build out your first truly seasoned leadership team. When you do that, each of those members of the leadership team that you just rattled off are like a big boulder. Your job is to sink to the bottom of the pond. And you will, because you've got all the expertise and you'll all sync together. But all of you cause ripples, good ripple effects and bad ripple effects. How do you manage the bad ripple effects and some of the good, like, how do you keep your eyes open for that? And were you cognizant of that as a company?

Yeah. It's interesting you say that. I love how you framed it. Ripple effects. And it's something I have to think a little bit more about. I'll just tell you how I've personally had to deal with it, which I'm a little further along than kind of this conceptual ripple effect. But I went last year very quickly into, okay, this is where I need to make some changes and this is the impact that I can have. And I was very much, you know, in the command and control seat. I don't want to hesitate. The puppet master comes to mind, but that sounds a little too Machiavellian. But I was very, I knew what had to get done and I just went out and got shit done. That won't work this year because I have these big boulders and I really convinced, talked myself into you're not the command and control. The 2022 is not about command and control. It's about partnership with each of these executives and making sure, just like you and David are peers in the best case scenario, your peers with your executives and you're helping them see around corners. But it's their baby and you got to let go of the strings. And so that's what I've personally done this year. And I think it's working. It's certainly empowering and letting the sunlight kind of shine through to those, to those folks.

I love that. All right, my last question is normally, what advice would you give to your 21 year old self? But I'm going to flip it a little bit based on something that you're doing and you're passionate about. You're doing a lot of work with life coaching of addicts. And I'd love to know based on the work you've done with them, what advice would you give to people?

There's obviously a tremendous amount of self help and spirituality and various things out in the world that, that I just met. Back to my 21 year old self, I missed it for 30 years. I had a career, I had four kids, I had a wife, I had a lot of pressure and I just missed nurturing my heart and soul. And so to relate this back to 21 year old or what I would tell my kids is don't forget that component it's not all about ego and brain and overcoming fear through brute force. It's really about embracing it at. At the core. So that wasn't how you asked it, but let me just answer it that way. And then relative to the learnings that I've seen in the trenches of addiction is all of our dysfunction comes from the same place. Fear and shame. And some of us weren't hugged enough. Some of us just have it naturally, it really doesn't matter. But until you can overcome and your shame and actually love yourself and until you can overcome fear by saying, I can't change yesterday, I can't predict tomorrow, I just have to stay present and mindful and in the here and now. Those are just really powerful tools, both of them. Get to the point where you can love yourself and then you'll be more effective in everything you do. And then just don't let fear run your life. Just worry about what you can control today.

Jim Morris Rowe, the COO for 155 I really appreciate you sharing today. Amazing insights, great conversation. I'm looking forward to bumping into you on the road. We're both global nomads with our spouses. This will be fun to catch up.

We should make it a date for sure. Thank you very much.

Appreciate it. Thanks for the time.

All right.

Under radical transparency, you have to have healthy conflict. So healthy conflict is just. We encourage people to argue you. Let's get it out and talk about it. And it's kind of like with family, you know, your family may piss you off so much, but the next day you're going to hug them and you're still going to love them because they're family.