Remote Team Dynamics | CMO of Ceros, Jamie Gier (Podcast 197)

I make time for them, simple as that. I think we have to make ourselves accessible, more accessible, because we're not seeing each other in the office. I'm not passing you in the hallway. It does take more energy, it does take more discipline, but it makes such a huge impact that investment of time is very, very important. So what I've learned through this whole remote and now being permanently in a remote position, you make the time and don't just rely on zoom, but you just, you got to make the time. That's, that's how you do it. Find ways to connect.

Our guest today is the CMO of CS, Jamie Geer. Jamie works with many top brands including NBCUniversal, Monster.com JP Morgan, Wall Street Journal, United Airlines and United Healthcare to create immersive content experiences. With more than 25 years of experience, Jamie's worked with leading tech companies from healthcare to education to grow and scale by creating impactful brands, designing revenue, gathering go to market strategies and leading high performance teams. Prior to Ciro's, Jamie held roles at Dreambox, Learning, SCI Solutions, now R1, Microsoft and GE Healthcare. She also serves as a board member for Page Ahead, a nonprofit focused on the literacy needs of at risk kids in Washington state and chairs its marketing and fund development committee. Jamie, welcome to the Second man podcast.

Thank you, Cameron. I'm glad to be here.

What did you pull from Microsoft? What do you think you brought with you in your career?

You know, I think the biggest thing that I learned from Microsoft was just critical thinking. They're very good about looking at an approach and being able to critically think about the 5% that's wrong with it. And it made me, I think, a richer thinker of the 5% that actually can make a big difference if you don't get it right. Really appreciated that.

How long have you been at Zeros now?

I have been at Sarah's for six months. I joined in May during a pandemic.

And what was it that got you to join? What was it that brought you over there?

Oh, gosh, a couple of things. One, I was the former customer of theirs when I was at Sci Solutions and the second is I love the creative slant to what they do. And so I had focused most of my career on specific verticals. I spent 20 some years in healthcare tech, then segue into ed tech. This was giving me a chance to serve a lot of different industries that I care about that are exciting to me in a very creative way. And for the first time in my career I get to actually market to people like me.

And you walked into the company. What was the size of the organization when you came in?

About 220.

Okay, so 220 people. And they bring you in from the outside into a super senior role, reporting into the CEO. You're the CMO there. You inherited a team. There were probably people on your team that wanted you, your job, and didn't get it. Can you walk us through all that?

Sure. Well, I'm not sure that there were somebody on my team that wanted it, but I'm the first CMO that they hired. So back in 2020, Saros was able to secure a rather large strategic investment led by Sumaro Equity Partners out of the Bay Area. And I think that is what fueled their desire to bring on a CMO for the first time to help lead the growth, take that investment and really lead the growth of the company in partnership with, you know, our head of sales and our head of product and others. But they hadn't really established a discipline around go to market from a marketing perspective. And so part of that investment thesis and strategy was to do that.

Okay, and how was the entry with you coming in? Did the senior leadership team just accept you right away? Did you have to kind of work your way in and build the relationships? How did you go about doing that?

Well, it's interesting, Cameron, because I joined during a pandemic. I guess I were probably still in one. Many would say that. And I was the first strategic hire that they made that isn't located on the east coast in New York. So I'm out in Washington, as we've been talking about. And I think in any situation like that, trying to establish yourself and the relationships in a remote way when you're across the country is really difficult. But the team has really embraced me. And I feel very much, even though we interact a lot across a screen, namely zoom, I feel very much a part of that team. But in full transparency, it's a hard thing to do when you're. When you're remote and there's travel restrictions and limitations. So it's not like I can just get on a plane and fly out. And so that, you know, it's come with some of its challenges.

But what do you think you did? Like, if you were to kind of drop into tactically, like, what. What did you tactically do that helped you develop those relationships? And it might not have been. Maybe it was cognizant, maybe it wasn't cognizant, but can you reflect back and say, you know what? I did this and this really helped because there's a lot of people that in the CEO role, second command role, come into an organization and they have to do this. It'd be interesting to hear what you did. It's still fresh for you.

Yeah. So I think there were some of the basic things of just making sure that you're finding your network within the organization and establishing the one to one relationships and spending that time getting that time on your calendar. I did make a trip out there. We did break bread, so to speak, for a week. The executive team got together. And the great thing about this executive team, Cameron, is they're very vulnerable. It's probably one of the most vulnerable executive teams I've been a participant in. And I think that just accelerates the bonds that you create to begin with. But you know, I go out of my way to make sure that I'm connecting one on one. We do have a daily standup with the exec team and so every morning we're on there and I would say about 60% of the time it's just catching up on life. You know, what did you do for the weekend? What's going on with your high school or what's going on in, you know, this home improvement projects? So we use time to just be real and personal with each other and that has helped. That's really helped to cement the relationship. And then we move on to business, of course, because that's what we're there to do. But we should never underestimate the power of vulnerability in our relationships, even at the executive level.

Yeah. And I think it's really important that people realize that. I think even more so today than maybe it was back in like the 80s and 90s, we really have to blend the personal and the business, don't we, to actually build the relationships and build trust. Have you ever had that kind of bite you in the ass at all when you're. You get too close to your peers or too close to your team, or do you find that it's always a strength?

I think that you have to strike the right balance. Like you, I grew up in the earlier years of my profession where that was taboo. You didn't really mix a lot of that and I think you know that that's changed. It's changed in a very good way. But yes, you got to be careful about that because sometimes those personal relationships can put blinders on and make it a little bit more difficult when the, the tough conversations have to take place. Some people do it really well, but it can, it can create its own challenges. But the reality is this. So I, I'm a single mom and my son, who's now 14, has always been a part of my professional life. So I've shifted towards this work life integration, if you will. I'm a much better professional when my personal life is intact and when I feel as though I'm fulfilling my role as mom. Unapologetic about bringing that to the table when I'm an executive. And so, and, and I've mentioned this to all of my teams and, and in the companies that I've joined, you're going to hear me talk a lot about my son because he actually fuels a lot of the passion that I have for things. And I also want to make it okay for other executives to go. That's, that's okay. We all have our own family dynamics and those are big pieces of who we are as people and it's what makes us human. So bring the personal aspects to the table, I think create those connections. It also creates understanding and interesting stories as well. We, we connect on stories. But yes, I think to a degree you got to also be careful about how far you take that because we're still in a, in a professional setting. But I am, I'm super happy, Cameron, that since the time I entered into the workforce in the early 90s, that we've shifted away from the it's all about business to we're humans. We have these other interesting aspects of our lives that make us better at what we do.

Well, there's, there's that. I think Covid has really accelerated that for us too, where we just, we're now used to seeing everybody's kids walk by or the courier show up or a dog barking in the back like, oh yeah, it's called life. So we really kind of just fast forward because it didn't happen, right? They didn't. The kids didn't walk past the boardroom. The kids didn't, you know, the courier didn't show up at your boardroom, in your meeting rooms. So I think we've all gotten really fast forwarded. But the other part is I think none of this actually matters. Like this, we're all going to die. Like this is just what we do. Like our family is more important than the business. And if actually people can accept that, but you're in a company that's big enough now where politics can creep in. How do you avoid politics and silos from, from kind of getting into the organizations when you're at that size?

I don't think that you're ever going to avoid it coming into an organization. I think it's the way in which you manage it so that politics become a healthy aspect because it's always going to exist. I mean, there's damaging politics and there's healthy politics. And I think it's what you allow that to be. I'm a big believer that what you permit, you promote. So if the politics get out of hand, you got to call it out and you got to stop it because it becomes toxic. You got to call it out even with the most established relationships that you have. That's where that personal versus professional relationship dynamic comes into play.

Yeah, exactly.

But I think that politics can be healthy if they're managed and channeled in the right way. Now, I've worked for some organizations that they get things done through politics. I didn't last very long there because that wasn't, you know, part of who or what I wanted to, to be. I think many of those organizations have since morphed out of the, the toxic politics into the, the more productful ones. But I don't think that you're ever going to avoid it. Cameron?

Yeah. What's it like working with a company that has the backing of a PE firm? How do you, how do you navigate the good and the bad of that? Can you walk us through that as a senior exec?

Yes. And I' emphasis by saying that the size of company that Saros is is exactly the type of company I love to be part of because it's in that growth phase. And a lot of the times that growth phase comes with a PE firm, a private equity firm. It's an interesting transition when you go from being self governed, which is you have founder led and you don't have the governance of a PE firm to one that now has taken on a sizable amount of investment and you've got shareholders outside of your own employees and you've got to be good stewards of, of the money investment that they give you. I think the healthiest PE firms that I've been led by strike a very good balance between providing some oversight and being a helpful, trusted advisor with allowing you to make and drive your own decisions because you know the business well. So there's always going to be some accountability, but allowing the business to be who the business is, the culture, the DNA, and allow it to thrive based on that. Now I've, I'm aware of PE firms that try to be so prescriptive. They throw you a playbook and they say, hey, here you go. This is our playbook and it becomes a one size fits all. And those companies tank because they don't take into consideration the beauty of what that company was and continues to be and allows it to thrive. So I think the best PE firms that I've worked under have a good balance of we're a strategic advisor, we're going to help guide you. Yes, there's accountability. Guess what, you have, you have numbers that you really do have to hit and there is such a thing as ebitda. But we also appreciate the unique cultural dynamics of your company and what you do. And we, we don't want to take away from that.

Yeah. Where do they raise your bar? Where do you think the PE firms help you become better companies?

I think in ways such as just strategic growth. How can we expand the company into new markets? And having access, by the way, to market research that allows us to think a little bit more intentionally about how to enter into new market. What I've really appreciated about the PE firms that I've been under is I've always had a seat at the table. That's not always true. And so when the CMO has a seat at the table, I think that they view that role as being strategic. And but with that comes accountability. And that accountability is we are a revenue producing department, not a cost center. And so that's where they can provide some guidance on what other portfolio companies are doing and being able to leverage some of the best practices. But I think for all intents and purposes, the private equity firms are really good about helping to think through growth strategy M and A activity, how to expand your user base. And they come with best practices that you can kind of modify for your own.

Did have they pushed people into the organization? Have they forced you to hire certain people or they really left you to, as an organization to make those decisions on your own?

They've left us to make those decisions on our own. Now what PE firms are good about doing is kind of leading you there a little bit too. So as you're thinking through new growth strategies, with that comes, do we have the expertise on staff? What do we need to bring to the table that we may not have if we're going to go after a new market, a new product line? And so they're good about helping you think through what talent may exist or not? But I have yet to work for a firm that said you must hire this role.

I was just reading through something in your, in our notes and you talked about the CMO role that you're in and that it was the first time that the organization has had that cmo. Did they have a director of marketing before? Did they have like a marketing manager or did they not even have marketing at all?

Oh no, they, they had marketing established for sure. We have, they've been very supportive of marketing and we have a sizable team and sizable button. We have what we need to do, what we were designed to do. They've had different people in that, including our CEO. There was moments where our CEO was playing the CMO role until they could recruit and find me. So they, they've had different people in there. So when I walked into this role, one of my first priorities, Cameron, was to help align the entire team. And because now I was, that's what I was going to focus on. And when they didn't have that leader, you know, that was focused solely on the marketing organization, there were things I had to come in and do and help realign and start building the bonds on our team as well.

Why do you think they grabbed you? Why, why did they pick you?

They picked me because. Well, let me, let me first state this. Saros is a highly creative company by nature. What we do is creative. So we do immersive content creation working with 800 well established brands. The people within the organization tend to be very creative, including our CEO, one of the most creative CEOs I have ever worked with with and for. As you grow your business, you got to bring in the more of the discipline of the science behind the company and the science behind marketing. And while I consider myself to be a whole brain marketer which is balancing the art and science of what we have to do, I'm spending a lot of my time bringing in the science, the order to the business and the practice and discipline of marketing and how we even think about broader implications for the business. So it was largely having being able to straddle both and having worked very hard to establish the science of, of marketing. Digital has allowed us to do that in many ways and bringing that discipline into the organization.

And you said something in your notes but that many marketers are even trying to move away from the CMO title to the CXO title. I saw the CXO title recently on someone's bio. What is CXO and what is it and what are they trying to market themselves away from?

Well, Cameron, we, we talk a lot about customer experience that at the end of the day we are trying to create any business the ideal customer experience, number one, to attract, attract new customers but also retain them and so I believe that CMOs to capture that experience side have started to morph their titles to this chief experience Officer. And in some cases they might do both chief marketing and experience because marketing still struggles with showing their contribution to the business. Sometimes we still get defined or positioned as more of a sales support or the brand people, which I want to come back to because I think brand is absolutely critical to what we do. And I'm afraid that we're moving too far away from it because it's not well defined. But I think in trying to shed this, the old perceptions or existing perceptions of marketing, we've tried to take on these new titles to make ourselves more relevant.

It makes sense and it does make sense. I can see that like marketing might be created as, oh, those designers, the little creatives that are kind of off in the corner versus that they are very strategic. They do understand the entire business. So is it branding or marketing? Which is more important?

I know sometimes brand or oftentimes brand gets pigeonholed into. It's a marketing thing. But brand is actually your business strategy. It is the DNA of the company. And for some reason we keep pushing it into this, oh, it's your logo, it's your design, it's. It's these things. Yes, logo design, creative is an expression of the brand. But your brand strategy really is focused on the value that you bring to your customers. That is your business, what you bring to your customers of value and how you. That is your business. Because that dictates. Dictates is probably too strong of a word, but it certainly informs and drives how you go after the marketplace, what new features you might roll out in your product, how you might service your customers, how you retain the best talent that might be in a certain marketplace. The brand encompasses all of that which touches every aspect. So that's why I find I chuckled at the. Is it brand or is it marketing? Because it's. It's not one or the other, it's both.

Right.

But we need to make sure that we see brand as central and core to the DNA, the, the heartbeat of the organization that influences all aspects, not just marketing.

Do you see changes happening in the PR side of things? Do you touch that side of marketing?

I absolutely do. I oversee that function.

What do you see is happening there?

Nowadays you cannot decouple PR from, say, social media. I'm still a believer in pr. I think that with PR you have to be okay with implied attribution, which. That's a whole different discussion on how digital has moved us to Such a hard roi, and everything has to have attribution to it. There's also this thing called implied attribution. And you just know that the stories that you're out telling. Here's a good example of that because I consider what we're doing today an aspect of pr for sure. So somebody might listen to this, this podcast and they heard Saro said that might pique their interest. But where do they go? They're going to go to the website. I don't know that they listened to our discussion. It was influenced, have no idea. But they're going to go visit the website. I lose attribution for that. So there's an intuition in it and some of this implied attribution that comes back to forums like this, which links back to pr. I think it's still important. I think PR can help on reputation management. But it's a channel, as one of many channels that we use to reach listeners, reach buyers, tell stories, still has a role.

Yeah, I think it's a huge. It's a huge opportunity to. To kind of get those groups talking together as well. Do you work closely with operations and getting them to understand marketing more? How do you get operations to listen to marketing more versus marketing having to listen to ops?

If marketing can demonstrate its contribution to the strategic conversations that happen around growth, that happen around retention, when we can bring leading indicators to the table to indicate what's going to happen in the marketplace, or we anticipate because of the data signals that are being fed to us, there's a level of respect and appreciation for our voice and our contribution. So one thing that I do tell my fellow CMOs and anyone entering in the profession is to come to the table with ideas. And the other piece of that is remove your functional hat, get to understand other aspects of the business that make the business tick and have a point of view. Have a point of view on that. And lastly is understand the financial metrics, the business metrics that are important to indicating the health of the organization and show how you link to that.

So is that like cost per acquisition, lifetime value, gross margin?

Yes, yeah, understand gross net. All of those. Those financial indicators that we use to really understand the health of the business and how we might need to. Course correct. Be knowledgeable of those things.

Yeah, it's critical. So what do you think are the key metrics for companies to measure around attribution? Or is it. Yes, all of them.

No, we want to move away from that. It's interesting that you asked that question. I was just on An I belong to CMO huddles. And we were having this discussion as well and, and it was, it was around attribution. We need to move to multi touch attribution, especially in B2B, because there's not one thing that motivates somebody to interact and engage with your brand and then make a purchasing decision or not. It's multiple things. So we need to take into consideration all of the different ways that a buyer engages with your brand to know what are the most important things that move them, inspire them, help them make a decision, help them consider you versus the alternative. Maybe there is no alternative. So there's a lot of signals that we, that are important for us to measure. But the most important really for marketing is around pipeline contribution and revenue contribution and being accountable to that. But all of those other things you talked about, the first, you know, first touch, last touch, everything in between, how many clicks, impressions, they all have to be looked at holistically to get a good sense of what's actually moving someone to want to interact with your brand. It can't be looked at in isolation. The other piece of that. So there's a lot that we can track and measure. Thankfully to digital. I actually started pre digital days when it was all about print and publishing and things. But we have to also get comfortable as we've swung the pendulum so far to everything has to be measured with implied attribution, which is what I brought up a little bit ago. We have to trust our own intuition and our own experience to understand that there are things that can't be measured but do matter in how brands get to know who you are, the visibility, events that you can't quite measure and track, but you know they make a difference. And you know they make a difference because at the end of the day, we're all consumers of products and services. We know our behavior. I mean, I can't tell you how often, Cameron, when I am on Instagram, for example, and I see something that's interesting, but I'm not quite ready to do anything, so I got to scroll past, I take a picture on my phone, we break some of that journey and what you can measure. And we got to be careful of that.

I've talked often about something called the rule of 27 where I ever first heard it. But the idea being that a person needs to see nine of your marketing messages before they take action. But because we're bombarded with everything, they only see one of every three things we put in front of them. So they need to see nine times. 3. You need to hit them 27 times so that they see nine, so they take action. So, yeah, we need to be. We need to be knowing where they're. They're getting hit from all areas, for sure. Do you think that. That the pendulum is swinging back enough yet for companies to really, really understand their messaging? I think we got so far into the data and analytics of marketing that we forgot how to actually write good copy like we used to.

I think we've over complicated. We've allowed to. We've allowed data to over complicate our world again. There's many amazing things in the world of data in helping us see things that we didn't have insights into. But we've. We've over complicated what really is simple. And it's getting back to the basics around storytelling the message. To your point, people gravitate towards stories.

Yeah.

These other things are simply ways that they get expressed in different channels that they get expressed. But yeah, I think that we've become so focused on how many impressions, how many clicks that we forget that the words that we use, the language that we speak are so important in moving somebody, in creating that emotional connection. I'd love to see us get back to simplifying what has become overly complicated and get back to the basics. Which is why I'm probably nostalgic towards the past when I think about the print days and the publishing days, because we. There were some basics that we just all adhered to that did matter and they made a difference.

I was, I was dumbfounded. The other day I was working with a client who has a brand that only sells to women. And I asked him something about his marketing, and he said he'd ask Bob, his director of marketing. And I said, well, something about pr. He said he'd ask Steve as head of pr. I'm like, wait, is everyone working on your brand a guy? And he's like, yeah, maybe. I'm like, dude, are you an idiot? Like, guys have no business being in this conversation. Like, we don't. We don't. We're not hairy versions of women. We don't think the same. We don't make decisions the same. We don't use the same wording. We. We. Different color palettes appeal to us. Like, are you out of your freaking mind? And he's like, I think that might be the best coachable moment of my career. I'm like, yeah, we gotta back. Come off this real fast. Like, it was a real. I don't know what. It just. I don't know if that's, there's data behind that, but it didn't make any sense why we'd have a bunch of guys making decisions on a female brand.

I would agree with you on that. And that gets back. Know your, know your audience and then devise your talent in your team of those people that can best serve that, that audience. That's not to say that men can't. You know, in this case, this example, that they're not going to have great ideas of how to develop a largely female apparel line. I mean, look at some of the world's best designers. They happen to be men. I wear their clothes, but I think we do. There's a good point on them. We have to be, we have to be cognizant of that. I think the other mistake that we make too is that companies get so enamored with themselves that it becomes so much about their product and they lose sight of the hero of the story. This gets back to the basics, by the way. This is, this is Marketing Comms 101. You're trying to show somebody how to be a better version of themselves, how to live a better life, what that could be, what that feels like. And instead of showing that, we show it in a product instead of showing the outcome of it and the joy, you know, the expression of joy, whether it's the words or the, the visual language that we use, Too many companies get enamored with their own technology. Drives me fricking nuts.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's like it's not about us, it's about them. Here's a good case in point. When I was at, when I was at Dreambox, that was a Dreambox Learning K through 8 online math that would supplement what the kids were learning in, in the classroom. We kind of fell into the trap of a lot of our marketing focused on the technology. It focused on the, you know, the, the teacher and the, the kid at the screen. And we said, you know what? That's, that's not what this is about. What it's about is showing that the opportunity a child has in their life and realizing and recognizing their dreams if they can grasp math, if they feel confident as learners, if, if they can comprehend how to do math, you show the better version. So we did a whole campaign around Dream Big, and it focused on kids seeing themselves as future astronauts, future construction workers, designers, whatever they wanted to be. And our message was simple. Create the confidence that they need in learning, including math, so that they see the possibilities of their future. And it, it landed so, well, because united everyone around the child, the parent, the learning, guarding the teacher, the superintendent, everyone that we served, it didn't. It wasn't about them. It was the child.

Yeah.

And boy, can I tell you, that campaign brought tears to the eyes of the teachers in our own organization who went, we got it. That's exactly. That's exactly how it has to land. And for some reason, Cameron, it's a. It seems so basic, and we've moved away.

Yeah. I did a talk that's on the main TED website about raising kids as entrepreneurs. And part of my initial messaging was that, you know, kids have dreams, and as we grow as adults, we take them away and, you know, allow kids to have those entrepreneurial dreams. And I get so frustrated. This was back. It's changed a lot now where the school systems don't crush the dreams of entrepreneurial kids, but they used to shut them all down. Right. Like, you can't sell that. You can't sell those things. You can't. I'm like, let kids be kids. Right. If they're an entrepreneurial kid, let's inspire them. You mentioned Covid a couple times and kind of coming into your role in Covid, and I know that we are still kind of in this stage, but I think there's also really important lessons that we can pull from having to kind of steer a company through Covid. What have you pulled that you're going to carry with you in your career even as we emerge from the pandemic? What do you think you've learned that has made you a better executive or that. That you'll always use in your roles?

The silver lining of COVID is that it has exposed the importance of connections and humanity, grace, forgiveness, all of these things that we talked about earlier. So I see it as a good thing. I spent a considerable amount of my leadership management time helping my own employees through the emotions of COVID which were very personal to them because it impacted their families. Many of us, including myself, was trying to manage not only this new remote working environment that I was not familiar with. I'd always been the office, but remote learning and managing our kids, managing our profession. And to your point earlier, you know, my son would show up on a zoom call or my cats jumping on my lap or attacking my leg, and it showed us in our real, true, authentic self. So even those who are uncomfortable being vulnerable had no. No choice but to be. And I think those are moments where we really could step up as leaders and go, I've got a guy in many Ways. Cameron. I can't speak on behalf of the entire leader leadership world, but I felt like a therapist at times.

I think leaders have always been therapists, and we've ignored the role. Sadly. I think. I think the best leaders, when I was the second in command for 1-800-got junk back in. I grew them from like, 14 people to 3, 3100. The people side of the business was exhausting to me because I played therapist. I cared so much about their dreams and insecurities and fears and their lives and their passions, and then I had to get the work done. And. But I think it was because I cared so deeply that I had that kind of culture that emerged from that. But I think, sadly, so many leaders have missed that opportunity that they're. You know, I spoke to the CEO this morning in Denver, and he's got a great company about one employees. And I said, you know, your role is to be the chief energizing officer, not the chief executive officer. You have to go out and praise and thank people and show gratitude. And he's like, God, I don't do that enough. I said, well, you know, how often do you tell your girlfriend, do you love her? He goes, daily. I'm like, really? Like, you don't just do that quarterly. Why wouldn't you just tell her quarterly that you love her? And he started laughing. I'm like, that's. That's what you're screwing up in the company. Like, we. Yeah, we need to humanize that there.

Are teachable moments that are important to us as leaders, and that is being there in a compassionate way, in a meaningful way, and helping to guide them and taking the time to do that, but also as leaders, allowing ourselves to feel it as well, but taking time to take care of ourselves. So one of the things that I learned during COVID is that I was putting forth so much energy in taking care of my team members in a way that I had not had to do pre Covid because there's all of the complexities of what we're having to manage. I put a lot of energy into that. And one of the fatal mistakes that I made was allowing myself to wear down. And so I would take that, you know, offline. And I was exhausted. And so I think we have to remember, too, as leaders, we're not. Okay. I like to think that we're superhuman and I'm Wonder Woman or whatever else, but. And into some extent, we all have our superpowers. A part of our superpower is realizing when we need to take A fricking break and take care of ourselves.

Well, what is United Airlines one of your clients? What do they tell us in their safety briefing? Right.

Put your exactly on your oxygen mats. Right, Exactly, Exactly.

Leaders have to treat themselves like racehorses. And yeah, for sure they have to. All right, final kind of round of questions. Just around the remote teams and leading remote teams. I mean, it's now pretty much become ubiquitous that that's just the way business is going to run. What do you think you do well in, in running remote teams and growing your leaders of remote teams?

I make time for them. I make time for them. Simple as that. You know, beyond our established weekly meetings, I will send a text message, I'll ask about, you know, something personal in their lives. I think we have to make ourselves accessible. More accessible because we're not seeing each other in the office. I'm not passing you in the hallway. It does take more energy, it does take more discipline, but it makes such a huge impact. That investment of time is very, very important. So what I've learned through this whole remote. And now being permanently in a remote position, can't wait for more travel because I do love the personal interactions is you make the time and don't just rely on zoom. Pick up the phone. Do you walk and talks? I'm notorious Cameron for doing walk and talks. I'm like, get your sneakers on, get your, you know, whatever. We're going to go outside. And I'm sure my neighbors think I'm crazy by now because I've been doing this for a year and a half and I'm just out, you know, doing my power walk, talking and having conference calls. But it's good for, you know, well being and health. But you just, you got to make the time. That's, that's how you do it. Find ways to connect.

So simple. All right, Jamie, I want to go back to the 2122 year old self. You're just kind of leaving college or getting ready to start off in your business career. What advice would you give the 2122 year old that you know to be true today but you wish you'd known back then?

Can I say two things?

Yeah.

Okay. Find the thing that fuels you, your passion. I feel very blessed that I found what I truly love to do and I've been able to apply it to different industries and I've, you know, I decided to focus on high social impact kind of companies. But find the thing that, that fuels you. Don't go into something just because there's a Lot of money there or, you know, they might be lacking and whatever it might be, find the thing that, that fuels you, that you're passionate about and always go the extra mile. Go that extra mile. I tell my son every day before I drop them off at school, have a joyful heart, good attitude and give more than expected. Is those are the people that are going to stand out. That's one. The second is around establish a personal board of directors early on. These are going to be the people that could be family members, they could be friends, they can be mentors or whomever, but people that will give you critical feedback and you got to be willing to take it. But that can help guide you because they'll open up doors, they can answer questions for you. And that is so important. I didn't learn that till later on. Fortunately, I had really good mentors as I was, you know, progressing in my career. Actually, you know, I worked my ass off too. I was the person that. That gave 120% largely because I loved what I did. Also extremely competitive. But it was until later on in my career that somebody said, oh, you should really think about a personal board of directors. I'm like, that's kind of novel. Okay.

Yeah, it's cool.

I would say that because in that kind of fuels and accelerates. It's a safe place to go to get the good, the bad, the ugly. Or remember, feedback's a gift and people have to remember that.

Yeah. Jamie Guyer, the CMO from Cirrus. I really appreciate you sharing with us today on the Second Command podcast. It's amazing.

This has been a lot of fun. Thank you for inviting me and allowing me to share my story and what I've learned along the journey and continue to learn. Always learning, constantly learning, of course.

Thanks again.

When you're building organization, it's also important, even more important as you grow, to be able to build standing organizations that can do it. Not depending on always your help or and your ability to pick things up. And as a leader, you should always be able to pick things up.