The Difference Between a Chief of Staff and a COO | Laurie Arron (Podcast 354)

What are the common mistakes that a CEO make in working with a chief? Well, I think a lot of leaders will get involved in minutia and micromanage things that they have no business micromanaging. Micromanagement, even of a chief of staff is a difficult space because when a chief of staff is doing exemplary work, it's because they feel empowered and trusted. And I think the same thing goes for, you know, how CEOs run their organizations. It should be with trust. It should, it should be not micromanaged. Set the vision. Have people understand clearly and consistently what that vision is and how you're going to get there. Is everybody aligned on the initiatives? Is there anything that would jeopardize what we're trying to do? Are we armed to get those obstacles out of the way? So to answer your question, I would say micromanagement.

We have a very interesting episode today. We've got Lori Aaron, who is the author of who has yous Back? Speaking with us today on the role of the Chief of staff. This is a very misunderstood role in the business world. Some people think it's an executive assistant. It is not. You're absolutely going to want to listen on this experience. She's played the chief of staff role in a number of very large organizations. She's going to explain the differences between a chief of staff and a CEO, the chief of staff and an assistant, how often the chief of staff manages assistance for the CEO and how often smaller companies are mistitling someone and giving them the chief of staff role when that is not what they do at all. So you're going to absolutely want to either watch this episode on our YouTube channel or listen and share this one. For sure. We'll see you on the inside. Laurie, welcome to the Second in Command podcast.

Thank you. It's great to be here. Cameron.

Yeah, I've been looking forward to this episode for a while now. You're in a really intriguing role and you're an expert in this space. And I don't think there's a lot of people that understand this. The role that we're going to talk about, which is a second in command role quite often in the business. And then secondly, even if they've heard the title, they have no idea what the differences are. So the role that you're really the expert in and that your book who has your Back is about is this chief of staff role.

That's right.

Why don't we start with defining what the chief of staff role is, where it kind of came from, the genesis.

Of that role, you know, it really is a mystery. I think it's one of the roles in the corporate world that is misunderstood. And I think the reason for that is that there really are not two chiefs of staff that have the exact same job. It's just misunderstood. On one extreme, it can be seen as a glorified assistant, which it is not. On the other extreme, it's, you know, the military, it's, it's West Wing. It's all the different things. And what it is at the core is really they serve the CEO's priorities, they serve the mission. They are there as a number two to support the needs, the priorities, the initiatives of that CEO and, and of the company mission. So at its core, that's what they do. It was born way back in the military. I mean, it goes back to the old Roman days, Shakespeare, consigliers, they show up everywhere. But in the corporate space, it's been misunderstood. It's very common in the tech sector, in the finance sector, not so much healthcare, not so much other industries. So there is some data now, finally, that tells us where it came from and where it's most utilized and most impactful.

Is it a role that, I mean, the terms, when I had heard of it was almost the second in command or this really critical role for the President of the United States. Like the President had this chief of.

Staff and still does.

Right. And in the business world, did it migrate into the business world because it was a unique title? Did it come into the business world because it was different from a second in command or a COO title? Or what are the differences and kind of uniquenesses there? Or is it the same?

In my research, it started really doubling in numbers in early 2000s. In 2007, actually, they doubled the number of chiefs of staff in the corporate space. In the Fortune 500 Small Business Middle business space. Prior to that, it was really mostly in governmental type roles and it was a very important role in the government space.

So.

So now you see a lot of, most of the chiefs that we see, as I said, are in tech tech, they're in, they're in finance, in fintech. They serve Companies that are 200 employees or more in size. They come in a lot of different shapes and sizes, are very big out in Silicon Valley, although the role there is quite different than it is in the top three financial institutions in Manhattan, if you will. It's misunderstood, but at its core, there are some foundational, fundamental things that all chiefs do.

Okay, so let's start with dice. I was Going to ask you about the role differences, but let's start with the fundamental things that they're all similar doing, and then we can kind of build out from there. And it is very similar in a way to the CEO. Harvard wrote an article back around 2007 called the Misunderstood Role of the CEO, and it sounds like they need to do one about the misunderstood role of the Chief of staff.

That's. Well, hopefully my book will demystify the role in a way that makes it understood and attainable. And, you know, it is about finding the right match, just as the COO is. It's a chemistry thing, right? It's about finding the right match and then igniting the relationship and the dynamic between the CEO and their chief. And that takes some artwork. In the book, I talk a lot about how to find the right one, how to put your interview squad together and make sure that the senior team is all on board with this chief of staff, how to set them up for success. And you know what that relationship looks like when there's magic. And it does. It's like a professional marriage, Cameron. It's like truly one of the most professionally intimate relationships that exist.

What are the commonalities? If you go across the different chiefs of staff throughout there, what are the big ones?

So mostly they're providing strategic support to the CEO or the senior executive. They are a trusted advisor. They are a confidant. They often handle, you know, a wide range of tasks. That would include overseeing and managing a schedule for a CEO. Not in the calendar way, but I'm saying make sure that they're using their time wisely and focused on the biggest priorities for the firm. They are coordinating projects and initiatives. They are driving alignment and influence amongst the team. Because we both know that when there's not alignment between functions, initiatives slow down, missions get missed, dollars are lost, employees aren't as engaged. So driving alignment is a key priority for effective chiefs of staff. And to be able to do that right is an art. They usually are in charge of all communications, internal, external, making sure that the talk track and the narratives are all aligned. Are we saying the same thing to our people as we are to the street, for example? You know, they really help with effective decision making, challenging their leader on thinking broad, perhaps broader, or offering new perspectives. So that's typically what a chief of staff generally is going to do.

Some of this stuff ties in with what a CEO might do, but in some cases it seems like it is very different as well. It almost seems like they're two in a Box. Whereas the CEO is often working on roles and responsibilities quite different from the CEO as well. Is that more what the Chief of Staff is, is they're just very kind of joined at the hip with the CEO.

I think that's a good way to look at it. The way I see it, the Chief of Staff's role is more narrow in service of the CEO, his or her biggest priorities and the mission and all things that ladder up to that. In my opinion, the CEO has got a broader range of responsibilities that are rooted in operational strategies and effectiveness and efficiencies in the company. They're usually managing various department deliverables. So I think that the scope is wider for a coo. The scope is narrower and perhaps a little bit deeper in service of the CEO on behalf of the Chief.

Yeah, that's becoming super clear to me actually. Like I really do, kind of. Especially when you talked about overseeing some of the communications and making sure that you're thinking about the calendar in a strategic way. And yeah, it's really clear that you're almost an additional filter or lens or like sitting on the CEO's shoulder as they're kind of whispering in their ear. You mentioned that they're not a glorified executive assistant. What's the difference between an executive assistant and a Chief of staff? And where does that line tend to get drawn?

Great question, and I'll quote One of the CEOs that I had the honor of supporting as his Chief of Staff. He used to say, my right hand is my Chief of Staff, my left hand is my executive assistant, and together we fly. It is literally the balance of both of those sets of support that allow him in this case, to reach his fullest expression as a leader or drive the impact that we knew he could. The main difference, Cameron, is that the Chief of Staff is operating with a strategic lens on the business. They are in many ways the truth teller. They're out averting problems before they ever reach the CEO's office. I like to say that the best chiefs I've ever seen are those that are preventing problems, not solving them. An ea, on the other hand, is very astute at the administrative nature of a job. For example, travel. You and I both know that CEOs have extensive travel burdens and logistics. All things administrative, calendar management, talent, short term communications responses, email management. All of that would primarily be an ea. The Chief of Staff would never cross that path. They are jack of all trades. Air traffic control.

Yeah, now I think I understand where this role might have gotten really confusing. And almost cheapened in a way it feels like across the organization in every single functional area. We've had title inflation over the last 20 years. You know, you could have a head of marketing that really is a Director of marketing, but people tend to give them a VP of Marketing or a Chief Marketing Officer title when they're not. Or the Head of Finance is really a controller or a Director of finance, maybe a VP of Finance, and we give them a CFO title. It feels like a bunch of small companies out there have tried to give out an important title like Chief of Staff to an executive assistant who's not a Chief of staff at all, but they don't want to call them an executive assistant, so they give them a big title to make them feel good. And then all of a sudden we have this perception that we have these $75,000 chief of staffs, which there's no freaking way. You couldn't write all these things unless you're a more senior, seasoned person.

Well, and it's a bit reckless, isn't it? Because it. I'm not a title driven person. The only reason we talk titles here when it comes to Chief of staff is so that we can truly understand the role and the distinction between that and the. And the Executive assistant.

And that's both inside and outside the organization.

Without a doubt. Without a doubt. Without a doubt already. But I think the point to make here is that it is less about the title being misunderstood. It's more about, in my experience, the leader who has a Chief of staff. If they don't know how to leverage them and use them properly, they will fall into the camp of being diluted and more of an executive assistant. I think finding the right match, igniting the right Chief of staff and then knowing how to leverage them is the perfect match. And so it's one of the reasons why I wrote the book to teach a leader how to get the most out of your Chief of staff, how to find them, how to work with them. And typically, Cameron, the best reporting structure I've seen work is when the EA reports into the Chief of Staff.

That's interesting. Okay. And I think it's almost a really good clarity as well, is it almost feels like you should not have a Chief of staff unless you already have an ea.

Fair. Absolutely.

What's the approximate salary range of a Chief of staff? And you mentioned that they typically are in these companies of 200 plus people. Is that a good benchmark that if you're smaller than 200 people, you shouldn't have A chief of staff or if you're smaller than 50, like is there a. You're not there yet, kind of.

Here's how I look at the data. It's been a very poorly reported on position. I think the data is not strong because it's all thrown together in the kitchen sink. Meaning you're looking at how a chief of staff is paid at a Fortune 10 company to a chief of staff who's supporting, you know, a startup or an entrepreneur. There's no dissection that I am aware of where that data is cut properly. So what we have is a kitchen sink. And the last set of data that I looked at showed that a chief can be paid anywhere from at the time it was 180 to 300.

Yeah.

And then they have the regular perks and benefits of whatnot in the startup community. I do some work in the Valley. A lot of chiefs are getting equity positions. You don't see that as much in Morgan Stanley. Chiefs of staff, for example, I'm aware of. I don't think that the data supports a finite statement. Where we see most of them right now is in that middle market space.

But they're certainly north of 150, 170,000. Yeah, yeah.

Well, if they're truly doing a chief of staff role.

Exactly. If they haven't been given the title that doesn't match their roles and responsibilities and strategic incident. Right. I think that's the problem that I've seen across. Even with COOs, we've done a survey of hundreds of second in commands and we pulled a data set together that shows the title of the second in command, whether it's coo, vp, Ops, gm, whatever the size of company, by number of employees, by salary, where their company is based, male or female, and then what their base comp is and what their bonuses are, et cetera. And it's really fascinating to see how. I think there's a lot of people out there that got titles that are too big for them because it really doesn't match the compensation at all. And I think companies are doing a disservice to themselves and the employee. But I think it would be really cool for you to be able to start pulling that data set together on the chief of staff.

And I, and I am, I'm in the process of doing research right now. I think it's a murky space. If you look at LinkedIn, I mean, there's hundreds of thousands of people in LinkedIn that are doing chief of staff like work, but do not have a chief of staff title and inverse is true as well.

Another writing a book too, right? What's your. You're writing a second book now?

I'm writing a second book. The first one is called Crazy who has your back? A leader's guide to getting the support you need by the chief of staff you deserve. It is written entirely for the CEO who is confused about the role, wants to understand it. Once they understand it, they want to know how to hire and ignite the chief of staff. That's the book from end to end. Pick it up in New York. By the time you land in Chicago, you know everything you need to know. The second book that is coming out soon is called Hit the ground running how to nail your first 90 days as a chief of staff. So it is written for the chief to set themselves up for success.

Love it.

We both know that the first 90 days of any role are very indicative of how it's going to go in the future. So I want to chiefs understand what's important and what's not important and that their focus is on all things. Right. So the intention is that both parties will have their plans.

I want to ask you in a second about how to find them and how to work with them. And that first 90 days something that just struck me is this chief of staff only reports to and works with the CEO. You don't have a chief of staff for the head of IT or the head of marketing, do you?

So you can. You absolutely can. A chief of staff can be. I have lots of seen lots of things. I've seen a lot of chief of staffs report to a CEO. I've seen chiefs of staff have responsibility for the broader executive team. But the important when that happens, that the role is designed around specific deliverables so that they don't become ineffective bouncing around from leader to leader because every leader has different needs. But I have also seen chiefs of staff assigned to any C suite leader, a CMO, a CTO.

Okay.

I came from AT&T. I had 30 years at AT&T and many leaders of our executive team had effective chiefs of staff.

Yeah, it's interesting. I used to coach Marcelo Claret, who is the CEO of Sprint, and I coached Jamie Jones, his second in command as well, for 18 months. And I've got to reach out to Marcelo and find out. I remember going to his head office in Kansas City one day and I had to go through three levels of assistance just to get into his boardro with him when it was just he and I meeting and I'm curious which of his three was his chief of staff and which were these EAs and what were each of them doing? Because he had three full time EAs, or at least that's what I thought they were. But I'm certain that one of them must have been playing the Chief of Staff role.

I would suspect that's the case. I've seen a lot of. And you know this, right? CEOs will have a support staff, one being an EA, one being a chief of Staff and then there may be personal assistant or someone else who handles special projects, whatever it may be. But honestly the to me the home run is they all report into the Chief of Staff because Chief of Staff is air traffic control.

Yeah.

The symphony Director and can see all the moving parts happening simultaneously. And I think it makes it easier for the CEO when everything's under one hat.

Does the Chief of Staff start their career or learn lots of their career in the EA world? Almost like a CEO usually starts as a project manager or an operations role and kind moving up.

No, ironically, what the data says is that the most effective chiefs of staff typically have come from a strategy background. Many of them have come from rich operational roles, business operations, their deep and rich project management roles, their skill set. They're very different, not administrative. When a CEO asks me where should I look for a Chief of Staff, I say in places that you wouldn't normally look.

Okay, so that leads into the question and it's interesting because most CEOs have no desire to be a CEO. They love staying in their role. They don't want to play in that visionary culture role. Where do you find a Chief of staff? Where do you go looking for them? And where did your background come in all this? Let's go back to that for a second here because you are an expert in this space and you didn't just decide to write some darn book. You've actually been in this area for a while.

Well, I grew up at AT&T. I spent 30 years of my life at AT&T and it was extraordinary and I' super grateful and prideful. Six different cities, lots of different roles, lots of different leaders. Most of my time there was growing up as a sales leader, you know, running national sales teams, etc. And you know, we were a company that was building ourselves on acquisitions. We buy a video company, we did this and that. So I started to grow and you know, learned operations and learned customer experience and all these different areas of the business. And I got very interested in being in the center of Everything and seeing what the business looks like. And so the chief of staff position became available for one of our CEOs at the time. And I was fortunate enough to earn that role. And it was extraordinary to serve him and his mission. And when he retired, I ended up chiefing for his two successors. So I had the opportunity to chief for three very distinct leaders, all different needs. And meanwhile, the business is growing and growing and growing. So my role was different three times.

That's when you really start to realize the differences in the role, as when you realize you're the yin and yang with the CEO. Right. You have to match them and morph.

Into that well, and to help them reach their fullest expression as a leader. I did not chief to reach par. I would think about what would make this leader the best that they can be. What are the strengths? Where are the flat sides? What does the audience need? What's possible here? And at least that's how I like to look at the role.

From what you saw with CEOs, what are the one or two things that most CEOs should focus on more or work harder at or get better at? Like, where are they missing?

I'm going to take that question and answer it this way. What are the common mistakes that a CEO make in. In working with a chief? And I would say, number one, or.

Even with their whole company, not even with the chief. Like, when you've seen them from a leg, where do they, where do they screw up, that you're like, God, if you just do this, you'd be so much better?

Well, I think a lot of leaders, and you know this as well, will get involved in the minutiae and micromanage things that they have no business micromanaging. Micromanagement, even of a chief of staff, is a difficult space because when a chief of staff is doing exemplary work, it's because they feel empowered and trusted. And I think the same thing goes for, you know, how CEOs run their organizations. It should be with trust. It should be not micromanaged. Set the vision, have people understand clearly and consistently what that vision is and how you're going to get there. Is everybody aligned on the initiatives? Is there anything that would jeopardize what we're trying to do? Are we armed to get those obstacles out of the way, et cetera, et cetera? So to answer your question, I would say micromanagement.

Yeah.

I would say every CEO that I've ever worked with has an opportunity to delegate more, delegate effectively, truly, like trust and verify. But Delegate. Every CEO that I have worked with continues to deal with issues around time management. How am I using my time? Am I really focused on my big rocks? Does my calendar reflect that I'm focusing on the right things? That's where chief of staff really comes in to help make sure that the leader is actually focused on the right things and not getting bombarded with minutiae. I've seen work really well with CEOs is when they're creating cultures that. Cultures of inquiries, cultures of I want to be challenged. I don't want everybody to say yes when I come in the room, because sometimes people are. Yes, people around a CEO, they don't quite know how to challenge that CEO. And yet deep down inside, that CEO wants to be challenged. They want to invite that debate. And that doesn't happen unless you really consciously ask for it.

So where do the chiefs of staff gain the confidence in knowing that? Because it feels a lot like the emperor's new suit, where somebody needs to tell the emperor that they're naked and the emperor really wants to know and no one has the confidence to do it. So where does the chief of staff gain that confidence? Or is it just like you have to have that confidence or you can't be in that role?

Well, certainly you have to have some confidence to be in the role and understand what you're signing up for. And I think that comes with a strong personality. But I also think, and I speak to this in the book, I feel very strongly that at the beginning of every CEO, chief of staff relationship that they have a handshake meeting. I usually facilitate the handshake. What happens at the handshake? It's a meeting where, you know, figuratively, you're. You're shaking hands saying, here's what you can expect from me and here's what I expect from you, and here's how we're going to work together. Does this work for you? How do you like to communicate? Are you a texter? Are you a voice person? How do we want to work through conflict? Having that handshake meeting, which is somewhat bespoke to each relationship, it's an important foundation. It's like taking vows. When you're getting married, you take vows with your wife. Right? In the same way, the handshake meeting, in my opinion, is like the vows. How are we going to be together?

And then you've got to probably have those similar meetings every week as well. Right? You talked about building trust and gaining trust. What are a couple of things that a chief of staff can do to continually build and foster that trust between them and the CEO.

So. Yes, right. In fact, I just was working with the chief of staff yesterday and she was talking about what she's most proud of is that she is a relationship builder. And I think that's a unique skill that you have to seek out in a chief of staff. Building trust starts with operating with integrity, operating with authenticity. Listening more than talking, literally listening for what is happening here, what is not happening here, what is not being said here that perhaps is really loud. And I think a great chief of staff knows how to read a room, knows how to size up what's happening and then ascertain what is needed here. Again, tied to the mission or tied to something bigger. Relationship building is. Is all full of authenticity. It's about listening and it's about saying what needs to be said. That's where trust is built.

Okay, where do we find them?

Not in the places that are ordinary. I mean, clearly we know you can look at a top talent pool or high potential pool. That's the first place people look. And you can. I like to look at the unexpected places. Like someone who has run one of the biggest company initiatives but needs little recognition and they would never be on stage, but they're the same person that the team can't do without. Go find that person. That's the quarterback. Oftentimes they have a strong strategic background. NBAs, people that have consulting backgrounds, someone with a strong financial acumen looking in the financial arms of the business is always good operations. Someone who's operationally astute and can handle multiple things with ease and in the flow at the same time. And oftentimes those people aren't, you know, top talent list can be, oh, he made his quota 10 quarters in a row. That may not at all make a great chief of staff.

Right.

So I say unexpected places because I think you need to look at what will this job require and where would that kind of talent be.

So something you've touched on, this unexpected talent, they tend seem to be inside of the company.

I always suggest start inside of the company. Why? Because if you can find someone that already understands the culture, already knows the characters, already knows the mission, the transition to deliver makes it that much shorter. If you can't find someone internal, then absolutely look externally. But I always try to encourage the people I work with to start internal.

It almost seems like it's critical too because they really do understand the landscape and the people and the strategy and the culture. There's so much there that is the inherent DNA of the organization they're going to have to oversee. It's very different from coming in and overseeing a functional area. You really do have to understand it all. You got to understand all the idiosyncrasies, much like a family. Like I could talk about my family because I know them intimately, because I grew up with them. Whereas you have to learn my family. It would take you a long time to learn family. That's intriguing. That's really different because I wouldn't have expected that or I never thought thought through that. But that makes so much sense. You mentioned earlier in interviewing this Chief of staff and it sounds like you heavily lean on the executive team to participate in this interview process as well. Can you walk us through that? Because I agree that that's super critical.

Yes. So I call it in the book. I call it develop your interview squad. I, I say that because oftentimes what a CEO may want in their chief is not what they need. So what they want may not be what they need. Enter the interview squad.

Yep.

When you pick three or four people on the executive team who are, you know, strong constituents of whatever it is you're trying to achieve, they are going to look at the candidates in a way that allows you to make the right decision for the mission, which may not necessarily be exactly what the CEO wants. I want to offload my work or whatever the immediate needs are. I think when you put a squad together, you're able to get different perspectives around what the business needs and what would be most exemplary in the role. So I really feel strongly that a squad should be put in place and that the question set be intriguing and not ordinary.

It also feels like because the squad is there interviewing the squad's also the ones that are going to be working with this team.

Exactly.

Having to through them and around them and with them that they need to have that person who's going to. It's almost like they're helping to save the CEO from themselves in many ways. Yeah. This is super interesting.

Let me give you another example. So I have a lot of regimes. Right. So I'll have a. I'll work with a CEO who's got a brand new chief and that chief has done a great job because what that leader needed most at this stage was operational excellence. I'm making this up after they've reached operational excellence and there are systems and processes that help that business run. The next Chief of staff or that leader may not at all need to have that set of qualities. They may need to be More of a visionary or more of a challenger. And therefore the executive team would know that you're not necessarily going to duplicate the same chief when you rehire is the point. And I think that's again the value of the squad. They will see that in ways that maybe a single interviewer wouldn't.

If, let's say that you've got a chief of staff. I'm running a 500 person company, I have a chief of staff, they're working with me for two or three years, they go off to Nepal to find themselves and I have to find a new chief of staff. Am I looking for the same kind of person or am I looking probably for someone different? Because that first one has already grown me and I've worked with them.

That's exactly right. So that's kind of what I'm trying to say is that it's an evolutionary role. What the CEO office needs on day one may be very different than the more mature or evolved CEO office two to three years later. So it does change and evolve. Let's hope it changes and evolves. If it doesn't, you may not have had the most effective chief that you.

Could have or the is not learning and they need to be well.

And the other thing I would say this is again, the data says that most chiefs of staff, it's about an 18 month data to 2 year sprint in general. And there's two different sets of people who leave that role. Some are career chiefs of staff. All they want to do is look for their next chief of staff gig. Others will want to go in and run a function, run a line of business, go take on another rich role because they've had exposure to the business. They see the business now and the business sees them. Yeah, I am not a fan of someone being in a chief role more than two years unless they have a different leader each time. Like what my experience was. And the reason I say that is because it's literally a cycled business. You do a full annual cycle, board meetings, investor meetings, etc. Etc. Each one of those has a playbook and then you repeat the playbook the next year.

Right.

And so they, these are super smart people. They stop learning, they stop growing. They may have a different movie they're watching, but it's the same playbook.

Sure, yeah. I'm curious on something and I know that you will have a lot of insight on this. One of the things the CEO needs to do is kind of be the leash to the CEOs dragon or we need to be the brakes to the CEO's gas. We need to be able to say no to them. And we need to be able to say no in the right way and at the right time. The chief of staff has to be able to do that as well. You have to be able to tell them. So when and how do you tell a CEO they're making mistakes? When and how do you tell the CEO they're doing the wrong thing? Can you walk us through that with. I'm not going to, going to lead you any more than that because I've.

Got my thoughts thoughtfully and directly. You know, I work with a lot of chiefs and CEO pairs and one of the things I hone in on is how do you use a CEO's time wisely? What do you do in a 30 minute meeting that most people need an hour or two hours to communicate? Use the CEO's time wisely. That means say what needs to be said, put enough context around it so that the information can be received. Timing is everything. If you're going to give some really tough direct feedback, let's make sure that the setting is right and that he or she is ready to receive that. And a chief will know the delicacies around that. So thoughtfully being direct and making sure they understand what the options are and the consequences are.

Yeah. And I think for me, part of the setting is always privately. Not in front of the leadership team, not in front of the board. And I think so many times people challenge the CEO at the wrong time and it's almost like a husband and wife. We need to be able to have our tough discussions. We need to be able to argue about certain things for the good of the family, but not in front of the kids like you need to. You need to give your time away to be able to do that. Right. Is that part of this thing?

Absolutely. I think knowing the timing and knowing whether it should be in public or in private, but usually, and I think you know this when there is some public critique of something in the scenario that you just described that is typically more about the person that's delivering it than the matter. And I mean that thoughtfully and sincerely. But you, if you're stepping back and zooming out, what's really happening here.

Yeah.

Maybe somebody who wants to make a contribution to a meeting or wants to feel that they're bringing value, whatever it may be, but privately is. Is appropriate.

Yeah. All right, I've got two final questions that we're going to wrap up with. And one is I said that I didn't really Want to touch on, you know, your coaching work, but I think it makes sense to ask you a question about that. You work with companies in helping them around this chief of staff role. Can you kind of give us the rough overview of how you work with a CEO or a CEO and chief of staff?

Yeah, I work with CEOs who don't know anything about this chief of staff role, but they know they're missing something in terms of support. So I come in and coach and consult on how to make that happen. I've been involved in recruiting processes. I'm not a recruiter, but I can help them recruit the right talent and then I'm usually hired. Once they identify the right chief, I help them negotiate the compensation, put the offer out there, and then I work with them as a team for about a year and help set that relationship up for success. Yeah, with them together, I meet with the CEO, I meet with the chief, and then I meet with them together. And the outcome is that the initiatives that are most important to each of those CEOs, it's all bespoke. Those are met. There's usually a high level of engagement, employee engagement, when that relationship hums, you know, projects move faster, initiatives move faster, alignment is realized. So that relationship, I think is very paramount. So I come in and we're working on things that are outcome based.

Makes sense. All right, I want you to go Back to the 2122 year old Lori Aaron and give yourself some advice. What advice would you give the younger you that you know to be true today?

I would say speak yourself into the room. Speak your truth without any attachment to the outcome. Speak what you know is true and always do the right thing.

I love, well, I love all of that, but I really love the speak yourself into the room. That's super.

Well, listen, I spent my, the first half of my career as a woman leader feeling tentative at the table and I never really wanted to rock the boat. I had some of that imposter syndrome and it wasn't really until the second half of my career that I realized I've got something to say that is quite valuable and who am I not to share it? Like there could be some amplification here.

If you're invited into the room in the meeting, that means that they want you to contribute. So it's up to you to contribute. Right. And I think that's true.

It is expected. And when you're a chief of staff, it is expected that you will speak your. You cannot be a quiet chief of staff. That's not your role.

Laurie Aaron, the author of who has yous Back? Thanks so much for sharing with us on this Chief of Staff role. I really appreciate it.

It can get so expensive if you have high turnover. Like the amount of time and energy and money that you spend on retraining people if you have high turnover is not worth it. And I think when you're working with a company that understands how to source right talent in the market, they've got that talent acquisition process nailed down. It pays off in dividends, even though it might be a little bit more expensive.