Invest Like The Wealthy: Where The One Percent Store Money For The Highest ROI w/ Patrick Donohoe

Patrick donahoe, welcome to capitalism.com.

It is a pleasure to be here. You have an amazing place. This reminds me of where I grew up. And all the nostalgia is, like, flooding into my body.

I'm good. I'm glad. I like to start some of these off with a simple question. Patrick, how did you make your money? Wow.

That'S a. That's a loaded question. Thanks for the prep.

You know, I connected something. I don't know when it was, but I connected the dots between value and money. And I think it was. It was because I started my business just prior to 2008, 2009, and I was, like, really successful out of the gate. Like, we started in 2007.

What's the business like? Where is money coming from?

This is financial. Financial services. Right. We were doing insurance, financial strategy, pretty much the same thing we're doing right now. But I got everything handed to me, so I was part of a partnership. And they lost everything and took me down with them. And I was like on the. My wife was like, telling me, go get a job at 7:11. I still remember, like, her in tears, like, get a job at 7:11.

Like, I'm.

I'm sick of this. And I was that. I was that close. We had, like, a moving van ready to go to Phoenix, where she's from, where her family was living. We had a place to stay there in someone's basement. Like, I was just going to hit the reset button, and I went through just. Whether it's prayer or meditation or just huge introspection, and I was starting to connect the dots with things that I believed. And that's where it hit me, where it's like, what you have. I tell the story in the book that I wrote, but it's what you have people need. It would have helped during the financial crisis. It would have made a lot of successful people had they had the mentality and had they had the strategies. And so that's when I basically said, I'm gonna make it work. And from that point forward, it wasn't about necessarily money. Although I wanted money and I wanted to make money, I wanted to achieve certain things. But it came down to figuring out the way to make people's lives change through constantly finding ways to create value for them.

Yeah. So, I mean, obviously know that you're in financial services. I just have you in my mind as, like, you're the guy who manages the world's. You at least know and implement the strategy of the world's wealthiest people, which we'll talk about. And you've been doing that. I know, since like, right after the. The Great Recession. Is that what you were doing before? That's what you were doing before. Oh, yeah.

This was like the beginning of 2007.

Got it. So you. So you had a partner that you were in this business with that brought it down?

Yeah, there was a couple. Couple of partners.

And you went out on your own? Yeah, after that.

And I settled, like, I had to buy them out. And I got a database and a lot of debt, and I didn't know how I was going to pay it back, but I had a database. And so I started doing webinars and I just did. Dude, I did webinars before. Like, people knew what webinars were. And I kept doing the podcast. I remember I was only doing a podcast like once a month because, dude, getting the gumption to actually be confident enough to interview somebody or talk about certain things was hard. I felt inauthentic most of the time, so I was digging out of my own crowd.

And what did it take to turn that around?

It was tenacity first. First and foremost, and it was commitment to not failing. Like, I was a person that grew up playing sports, and I was like, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna fail. This is something I'm gonna figure out. I'm not gonna hit the reset button. And I look back and I was like, you know, I could have. And I probably would have accelerated the process, but I didn't file bankruptcy. I settled all my debts. I paid back, like almost a million dollars. Wow. And how old were you? When I figured out, uh, so this was like early 30s.

Yeah, that's. That's a lot, actually.

When was. So it was 2000. Yeah, I was. I. In 2008, I turned 30. So.

Yeah, that's. That's a lot, Patrick. Yeah, I actually, I actually didn't know that part of the story. So. So 10 years later, I mean, you have, you have basically you. As far as I know, you're. You're the guy that a lot of my peers go to to implement all of the financial strategies of the world. To have these people, like, our membership is the 1%. 1 percenters kind of go to you to implement a lot of the strategies. And I've told you my two steps to wealth. Build a business and invest the profits. I am all in on my businesses. I then invest it into cash flowing real estate, cash flowing dividend paying stock, other investments that pay me cash flow. But you're a little bit more strategic than that. And so I was hoping you could kind of walk us through what the overall strategy looks like when you're, when you're in, when you're investing in these higher level.

Well, first I first step back because I, I really believe that mindset will dictate your success because having a lot of money does not mean that you're going to be wealthy. I know that sounds cliche. I, I've just seen it firsthand so many times with, I actually don't think.

I'm sorry to cut you off, but I don't think that's cliche at all. What do you mean when you say that having a lot of money does not mean that you're wealthy?

Money is like paper and ink.

It is. It's like people have this notion that there's value in money and there's, and there's not, right? The money is in actually the values and what people do with, with the money. But the funny do, the funny thing is it's like we're so conditioned as a society to think that money has value that people figure out a way to not spend it. Like, they defer it and they do, you know, IRAs, deferring until they're, you know, retired and then they stretch it so that they don't have to pay any taxes on it. It's like, and I know, I know tax strategy is vital, right? But in the end, it's like pay the tax and spend the money if you're wealthy because that, you know, what you spend it on is what people are after, but yet they never do it. And so that's where I looked at, you know, I think it's telling to do business with older individuals. And I say older, probably past the age of 65. And I know a lot of 65 year olds that live a hell of a better life, a vital life than those that are in their 30s, right? But still, it's like those that are at 65, this is like this golden age, right, where you're at 65 and suddenly life is supposed to start. I mean, what's wrong with that, right? It's this idea that there's this future waiting for you. Because we've been socially conditioned to think that these are the things that we should be doing. And I think there's just a lot of social, they're not lies, but there's so much social ignorance out there when it comes to money and why you're doing what you're doing. If I make a lot of money, it's like, then I'm going to be able to do something. Well, figure out what you're going to do, commit yourself to doing that, and then the strategy takes hold, and now you can plan for that. But if you don't kind of understand really what you want in the end, then no financial strategy is going to make you happy.

Happy.

So I look at, you know, older individuals. You know, I was telling you a story earlier where I had this, this. I have this client and I have a couple of his family members as well. But he's a neurosurgeon, super smart guy, right. He has all these different patents and procedures.

Like, it's.

It's incredible. But he's on his third marriage, right. And he wants to set up this legacy for his kids and his grandkids, who he doesn't even have a. Have a relationship with.

Right.

So he wants to leave this money to them and leave it in a certain way, right? Where they essentially have access to all this money, but they have to do certain things to get it. And I was like, it would boil my blood, right? Because your legacy really is meant to be established while you're alive.

Not when you're passed on. And it's. Establishing relationships with your kids and grandkids should be a priority if you really want to benefit them in the long run. So his challenge was way more personal than it was financial. In the end, that's where I, you know, kind of connect the dots between. Everything is personal, even money. So it really comes down to, number one, establishing, like, what. What you really want. Right. And if money is the solution to what you want, I try to go deeper with people. Why do you want it? What's the reason behind it? Okay. And then look at their behaviors up to this point and, and figure out, you know, are they going to be able to actually achieve that? And this is where I think with, you know, entrepreneurs and smaller, smaller business owners that achieve a certain level of success, I think introspection, first and foremost about their business and what they really want in the end is more important than actually figuring out where to invest profits. And then the investment is going to have an objective. The business has an objective. The investments have to have an objective as well.

So I hate how you answer that question. Sorry. Because figuring out what you want, in my experience, figuring out what you want is a lot harder than figuring out what to invest in. And so I guess my next question is, does anybody really know what they want?

I think there are. That's a great question. Right? I think people if they introspect long enough, they can figure out why they're doing what they're doing.

Right.

And I think in the end, everybody wants the same thing. People want to be happy, they want to have good experiences. They want to establish good memories. Right. They want to do fun things. Right. You are a Tony Robbins guy. You've been to some of his events. I just came back from an event, so a lot of this stuff is like fresh on my mind. But we have needs, we have things that we're trying to pursue. There's things that are driving us. Right. You have six basic needs. And I look at really what the infinite game is that Simon Sinek talks about. And it's the idea behind growing. I think you get to the point where you recognize that growth is an infinite game. There isn't like retirement. Even though we all think that, you know, I'm going to retire one day retires and retirement is anti life. Human beings are not meant to not do do. It kills. It'll kill you. The idea though, is to grow in ways that maximize your experience of life and ultimately contribute the most to society. And that could be through building business. It could be through establishing a ton of wealth and transforming your family's life, transforming your community's life. And I really look at the wealthiest individuals and that pivot between where they're at and really where they want to be is they start recognizing those two principles. Those two, you know, they're called the spiritual needs. Where you are, you're adamant about growing. You recognize that you have to do that for the rest of your life and also the fulfillment you receive by actually benefiting others, creating value for others.

So what I'm hearing you say is that you're identifying these pieces for the individual first before you're ever deciding which magical whiz bang investment strategy to totally to deploy. Is that fair?

For sure.

But I imagine that there's like a menu of options that you are picking from when you are crafting the overall strategy. Would you walk us through some of those?

Yeah. I think they're not necessarily products or strategies. I think they're stages.

Right.

I look at kind of financial life in four different stages.

Right.

I think the first stage is like certainty. Right. Certainty is when you have, I would say some of the checklist items usually are. You have no consumer debt, you have adequate reserves and you're saving a healthy amount of money.

Right.

I call that kind of the certainty foundation. Then you get to vitality, right. And the vitality stage of life really is when you start to connect the dots between how you make money and who you are. Right. It's not a 9 to 5, it's not a job. Right. It's more of a calling. You're saving more money.

Right.

And you also are, you know, essentially having a fulfilling lifestyle. Right. So I think that vitality space and the certainty space, right. Are the two predominant places that I find people. And then you have the financial independence and then financial freedom. I think freedom and independence are much different.

So I'd love to go into that. But first, I can't imagine that most people come to you when they're in stage one and two, when they're, when they're figuring out their security.

You'd be really surprised.

So you work with some of the world's wealthiest people. They can't be coming to you looking for security.

You'd be surprised.

Tell me more.

People are afraid, man. It's like, you know, if there's people that have a million bucks in the bank, right. And are afraid of security spending, it's crazy. It's crazy. And I think that just the conditioning of human beings and this may not be the case for young people that don't have that. It's like when you're there and you experience that, it's like. And I don't, I don't, I didn't necessarily experience it. I experienced their experience of it, but just the fear that exists of them spending it, buying a bigger home, going on a vacation, doing stuff with their kids, spending money. People have the hardest time spending money when they are upper, in that upper echelon. It's insane.

You're saying that when people are really rich, they're actually more risk averse when it comes to spending money.

I would say spending averse.

And do you ever, do you have any idea why that is?

I think because they have connected the dots between fulfillment being a lot of money. Not having a lot of money means I can do the things that fulfill me.

Say that one more time.

I don't remember what I said.

Okay, so. Well, let me ask you this then. When you are working with a high net worth person.

You'Re filling that first bucket of security, which is, I mean, that can't be much more than like a plan you give them or is there something else that you're doing?

Well, it depends. It's subjective, right? So it depends on the individual and where they're at. I think, I think these stages of life is more of a mindset, right. Than it is checking boxes. Okay. If you're not living at least going on vacation or doing nice things, then you're not, you can't educate, you can't graduate from the vitality stage of life.

So when somebody, I guess what I'm getting at Patrick, is like, what do you do for these people when they're coming to you? I get them. I really expect you to come in.

I help them discover what they want and then I help them get what they want.

So I really expect you to come in with like this, with kind of the strategy you walk somebody through when they're, when they're a high net worth person. And I keep waiting for you to tell me that. And what I'm hearing more from you is that most people come in with like a lot going on and they don't really know what they want or where they want to go. And it's your job to go in and figure out the financial strategy that is going to work for that person specifically 100%.

And I look at you do have these blind spots that people have when it comes to finances. And I think that these days, especially with business owners, there is tremendous liability out there. And so also as part of that whole foundational strategy, right, it's, you know, creating kind of mirrors so they can see their blind spots. One specifically is cybersecurity has become an incredible. It's bankrupted municipalities, it's bankrupted companies with security breaches to a database. And so just a simple cybersecurity insurance policy or ensuring that your captive has cybersecurity insurance built into it. I mean those are just simple blind spots that most people are not.

You mentioned captive, I assume you mean a captive insurance plan. Would you walk people through what that is?

Captive insurance companies is basically, you know, there's a number of different ways to establish it. You can establish your own, which was kind of the first one. That's where all these big companies do is they form their own insurance companies. They pay premiums that are essentially tax deductible. Income going to the captives, you know, from premiums isn't, isn't taxed because it's surplus. And then you have insurable events that like an actuary or an insurance creator makes specifically for your business. So if something happens to your business, then your insurance company will indemnify that loss or like they'll send the company money if there's an insurable event. So cybersecurity, Right. So let's say you pay $1 million into this captive insurance company as a premium and one of the things that it covers is captive insurance, right. So when the money comes out, it's also tax free. Right. So let's say you have a breach and you have to pay this, you know, forensic database analyzer, right. All of this money to, you know, go through and ensure that the breaches, you know, or where the breach is extended to so that you know how to identify your, you know, your customers. Like Target, like Target had Target Marriott. I mean, it's insane. Like these big companies, right, they had breaches and you know, huge, huge amounts of money that they had to actually pay because there's laws, right, where you have to hold a certain amount of insurance or you have to do certain things if your database, if the database is breached.

So anyway, that's the idea. So a captive is an insurance company that you own. And then this is not something for just Targets and Marriott. This is a lot of entrepreneurs our size set up for two reasons. One, and correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm just interested in this stuff. My old business partner set one up for himself. But you set it up to ensure against certain events like cybersecurity attack. But also I know people use them as kind of attacks. Yeah, I'm not allowed to use the word loophole, so I won't say loophole.

You have to use it for a legitimate purpose. Right. Because most people that have captives are going to get audited.

Right.

So you have to, you know, essentially prove that what the captive is ensuring is in essence an event that will be detrimental to your business or affect your business.

But, but a Google algorithm change or a cybersecurity attack or an Amazon change or tariffs in China could all be for sure. It could all be risks that you could insure.

Yeah.

And so am I correct in my understanding that people will set up these, these insurance policies, these captives within their businesses and then they, they basically. This is separate business, correct? Yeah. But they can, they can take cash from one business, have a policy that is now stored away tax free and you can invest it within the captive and you keep it there for insurable events like a partner's death, a partner dispute, and then that is when the money actually gets transferred back into the business, depending on what the things that you have set up.

Yeah. So captives, if you do your own, it'll be absolutely specific to your company. But there are a lot of groups these days that make it more feasible because setting one up is really expensive. Plus you have annual maintenance on it, which is also expensive. Now it's relative to the business size. So what you find is that you have companies that will actually both own the company or multiple companies that will own the capital insurance company. Right. And that makes it a little bit more cost effective. However, you know, the actuarials, you know, have to be done in a way where it indemnifies all the companies involved. Anyway.

I don't want to get into a jargon, three syllable.

It's just like, it's a way to have, you know, a protection to your company. Right. For different things that could disrupt it with a lot of tax benefits.

Yeah. So I mean, is that one of the things that you help set up for?

So I look at, I try to stay in my lane, right. It's like I specialize in certain things and I have just an amazing network of people that, you know, provide those type of services.

So that's, that's one area that I think not a lot of entrepreneurs know about is that they can set, set up that as part of their security bucket and having access to cash that they would essentially control in the event of downside, in the event of something, something going wrong at a certain level.

That'S got to realize it's like, it's a strategy and it's a strategy if you're at a certain level.

What, what else. What other tools in your tool belt are you, Are you deploying?

The tools in my tool?

Yeah.

So what are you specifically looking for? If you were to talk about your audience, like, what are some of the things your audience, you know, is. Is facing? What are the things that they're looking to as far as what to what to create as a lifestyle? So, yeah, business.

I think the perception, and I have this perception still is I think we all assume that passive cash flow equals freedom and that if you've got predictable passive cash flow coming in that exceeds your expenses, you can define life on your own terms. I find the hard part is the defining what life on your own terms looks like.

But I also would challenge freedom because freedom is not passive income exceeding expenses. Freedom's a mindset you can be free without that.

I agree with you.

It's one of those. I agree with you because I know a lot of people that make.

Way more than they spend. Right. Passively, but yet they're not, they're not free. So I look at. Let's find out one thing. So I would think for entrepreneurs and business owners is having a, you know, at least a bookkeeper, a controller, a cfo. Right. Is. Is vital. Right. Because those are you Know the accountants. And the mindset of an entrepreneur is typically not the mindset of an accountant. Except you're if you're Tom Will.

Right, right.

He's not really an accountant, he's an entrepreneur. You know, but you look at really, you know, how your business operates, what its success is, and surprisingly, a lot of business owners, especially if you're, you know, one owner, you look at your bank account as the barometer, right?

Yes.

To the success of your business.

Yes.

So bookkeeper, we have a great relationship with a company that is a virtual cfo, slash bookkeeper, so that you have essentially an idea of how you know how your business is doing objectively, not just looking at this, that or the other.

Yeah. So when somebody is coming to you and they're, I mean, your typical client sounds like they're a high net worth person who's got things all over the place and they're saying, can you help me predict or can you help me create a system that is more predictable and develop more wealth and cash flow?

I think I say this, I'll say it this way. So.

Who'S a person's worst enemy? Who's their own selves, their own worst enemy? Right. And so when it comes down to it, you know, the gap between what a person wants and, or gap between where a person is and what a person wants is typically two things. Right. Number one, it's ignorance. Ignorance is a lack of, lack of knowledge. So it's about finding someone or learning, you know, what it takes. But the second part of it, which is the predominant one, is the discipline. Actually execute. Right. So if you look at, you know, how I look at clients and their situation is is it a function of ignorance or is it a function of discipline and the ability to execute? And there's so much, there's information everywhere. People, I think, can go find what it takes to make more money. And it just comes down to the doing. The doing part.

Yeah, agreed. So, Patrick, I guess I'm just dancing around like the question.

I know you want all the tactics and strategies I do.

To me, there's a million of them, dude. And there's ways in which you can value IP of a company and sell it to your kids and have a kind of an inter family sale and turn your ordinary income into capital gains or already in. Yeah. So it's one of those. But here's what you realize. It's like.

To me, it's important. Right. But what's more important is, is why you would do that. Right. And what's the outcome of. Of, you know, the tax savings. Right. Or the cash flow that you. That you have. Because these days, I think most entrepreneurs, like, have what it takes to be really happy, but they're not.

I think that's very insightful of you. I have to ask why you think that is.

It's the experience, and I think it's also social conditioning. You know, we've. What have we been taught about money? Like, what is society taught you about money? I know you have a totally different mindset, but it's still there, man. It's like it's in you, what you should do and what you shouldn't do. Even though it kind of conflicts with what you believe. Like what. It's still. It's still in me. Right. So what are we taught about money?

I mean, the one that jumps out to me is like, that people think that money is the root of all.

Money's evil. Okay. What else?

Rich people are bad.

Yeah. What else?

Money is freedom.

But are we really taught that socially?

I. Yeah, I would say I was. That money equals freedom, but that making money is also hard.

High risk equals high returns.

Sure. That money and time are correlated.

It's a great one. We do a whole, like, thing on.

We could. Yeah, we could.

That's actually. That's a profound one. Maybe we should do. Maybe we should do that. Here's the thing. It's like that inside of us, prevents us from taking action.

Right.

So it's a. It's addressing those.

Right.

It's defining what freedom is, is defining what time is. It's defining what your business is. I think some of the best, and I think all investment is people, either you or somebody else, because you're either going to do something with it or somebody else is going to do something with it.

Right.

Okay. So from a business owner perspective, if you know, you're. If you want to grow as a business, what do you have to become better business person? Right. You need to.

What's.

What are aspects of a business that you see most people don't get?

I think the biggest one is people forget that business is about value creation for customers, not about plugging into the right system that creates a bunch of money for sure.

And most people don't go into a business that way. Right. They ultimately learn that.

Okay.

But that is, that is true. So one thing that I was, was. It was awesome that you wrote a vision. You wrote, this is where I want to be.

Yeah.

At the end of all the things I looked at, that is what compelled me. The Most. Right. Because I've realized just with looking at business, looking at other people's business, looking at their lives, right? There is a vision. The vision is like, you know, six feet, six inches in front of them. Right. The vision is in a year, two years, three years, five years, right now, you may not hit that, but you need to have a trajectory of where you're going.

We all need an aim, for sure. We. And. And man, I. I'm shocked. Like, I think that I am sometimes weak at setting an aim and going for it, and I think I'm better than most people. Why is that?

Why is that?

Why am I better than most people?

No, why. Why do you set an aim and don't think you can actually get.

No, no, no, it's not that. It's. It's that I think it's part of, like, the hardest thing that I do is deciding what is an ideal or what is. What is a worthy aim. What is a. There's. We could do anything we want in today's world, everything is accessible. Choosing what is worthwhile, cutting everything else and going after the tasks.

Yeah, yeah.

That. That to me is half. Half of freedom is deciding what's worth pursuing what. What is worth going after. And then I think kind of the numbers and all that sort of just play out as long as it's a worthwhile pursuit. So.

So ask your question.

Yeah.

Would you knowing about the worthwhile pursuit of another business be important before you invested in that business 100%.

Or the.

Person that's taking your money and investing. Yes, 100%. That's the thing that hit me. And I see. I see a lot of it these days.

That was really insightful.

2008.

I'm sorry, I have to give context to this because I see so many business proposals from people I want to be invested in. I see so much people who talk about how they're killing it. And. And so the temptation is to follow the numbers or to evaluate it logically. But. But I have. I've said it, and this has stuck among my peers. As I say, you're missing soul here, here. And like, there's, like, there's a. There's a missing reason. There's a missing purpose behind it. Where if all of the numbers fell away, is there something else there that still matters?

Well, numbers measure something, dude.

Correct.

What is it measuring?

Yeah, it's. It's measuring value that other for other people. And I think most people see that as the end game, but it's really the byproduct and when you're investing in something, I think you're investing in the central reason why the business exists in the first place. Because if the numbers don't work this quarter, this year, there's still some core value there that is eventually going to lead to profit.

But why would it lead to profit? What is the, what's that catalyst?

Because other people value it enough to be able to spend money on.

What else?

What was the question?

What is the catalyst? What is the, what is the catalyst to eventually making it?

I, I think, I think it's just that people value it, that there's, that there's, they want it more than they want the dollars. Where do you get.

And I would add, I would add that it's the people that are running the company that are doing. Oh, sure, right. And what they're doing, why they're doing it, what are they after? And that's where I look at 2008, 2009. And I, you know, there was some investment that I partnered with, you know, in 2005, 6, 7, and part of the partnership that I was, I was in also invested and I personally guaranteed stuff. And that's where, you know, I, I lost a lot of money. And it wasn't because the idea was bad. It was that the people were bad.

Now or, or that the people were shortsighted profit.

And that's what I was about. That was what I was about to say in. Were they, did they have bad principles and were evil people? No, but I looked at their experience, right? And I looked at their values and I believe that they were in conflict, right, with their actual business value proposition. And I, and I see it today. There's a lot of people raising a lot of money. There's trillions of dollars circulating out there. And I see it, you know, I'm in Salt Lake, right? And there's a lot of other, like, tech, tech hubs, right? But there are tech companies everywhere. None of them make any money, right? They're all spending more than they make with the hope that one day they'll make money. And I know that there's a whole business model there. I had, my neighbor is like the lead developer for Carta, right? And they do all, you know, Carta's.

Yeah.

And he was like, no, that's not how Cap Table is working. If, look at this capitalization strategy. I'm just like, okay, whatever, okay, I get it, right? But, but in the end, it's like these are, these are companies there that are people being run by people, right? For what end? For what purpose? And that I think allows you to ask the questions that are typically not asked. Now you're going to want to look at their financials. You're going to want to look at, you know, the direction they're going, their partnerships or contracts. I get all of that. But people skip over the people skip over the people. Part due diligence skips over the people. And that's where I look at, you know, the, I don't invest with many people. I mostly invest in, you know, stuff that I control. Right. Which is mostly real real estate based. And then I give money to people who I know, I know their values, I know what they've done in 2008 and 2009 when, when shit went, went sideways and, and I've seen other things that have gone sideways and what they did, I always look for that. If some, if I will never, I mean this is just me and I might be short sighted. I will never invest in someone that has not lost any money. So I want to know, I want to know what happens when things go wrong.

Because it, eventually something always goes.

Like we were talking downstairs, it's like, it's the S curve. Right. Right now we're in this like huge.

Yeah. Are we ever.

But no tree grows to the sky, right. No economy grows to infinity. There's going to be correction. It's, it's, it's economics is, it's math. Like that's how innovation occurs. And we're human beings, we're innovators, we're always finding better ways to do things. Which unfortunately displaces the stuff that was doing that job previously. Right.

Yeah. So it sounds like you have a kind of a similar investment strategy to me, which is. I used to try, I used to own a nice portfolio of single family houses. Our mutual friend Jason Hartman will stand up on the soapbox and say it's the number one asset class in the world. He's done really well. He's biased on this, obviously he's biased with it. But I used to have a nice portfolio. I don't do that anymore. I'm not going to compete with the people who are doing that full time and professionally. So I give my money to the people who are doing that full time as a business. Right?

Absolutely.

And I'm going to get, I'm going to get a piece of that action. Right. I think a mutual friend of mine, of ours, J.P. newman is, is the same thing. Right. So it does commercial properties rather than me try to be a commercial investor. I'm going to give it to the group that does so.

And this is where.

That's what you mean by evaluating people and.

Yes, because it's not the same thing.

Okay.

Because what's not the same thing when you're doing it yourself, right. And you're giving in money to somebody else to do it for you is not the same thing.

I 100% agree.

Because you're giving it to somebody else. Right. And there's obviously profit, there's business there for them. Okay. It's clear. At the same time, you know, what are their values? What are they after? You know, when, when just what are their systems like, business systems? Like, it's amazing. Tom Wheelwright taught me this. He said that most businesses fail at about 30 employees, right. Once you get to like 30 employees, full time employees, that's when businesses fall apart. I think he's at 30 to 50 or something like that. But the principle was when you build to like 30, 30 employees, right. You can get away with all sorts of crap. Right. You can get away with not having systems. You can get away with, you feel, you know, if you're the CEO or, you know, I'm not a CEO of a company of 30. I don't know, there's no need for a CEO at a company of 30. Typically, anyway, that's another story. But the idea is like, you know, CEO is doing the job of the controller. Right. Or CEOs doing the job of the salesperson or CEOs doing the job. Yeah. It's one, it's one of those things where business systems, Right. And these are other just things that are overlooked. How to, you know, how to read a business plan. Right. How to understand SOPs, how to understand a business plan flow and a sales flow. I was never taught that. I was never taught that. Right. But I paid the price of not having it.

Yeah.

And I paid the price of not having, you know, systems. I paid the price of, you know, not thinking that my employee handbook had any value. Oh, man.

Yeah.

If your employee handbook is off the shelf, handbook, like, you're going to get screwed, you're going to get sued and you have to pay a lot of money. So anyway, there's. It's one of those. It's one of those things where as a business owner, if you're building a business, right. The principles that make a business successful, right. Are what you want to look for in other businesses that you're investing in.

So I mean, what I'm basically hearing you say, and I'm hearing In my own context, my own filter. So which is I am all in on my businesses. And then I'm looking for other relationships of people who run businesses that spit off cash flow for me. And sometimes that's real estate, sometimes that is other, in my world, e commerce businesses, sometimes as other unrelated businesses. So is. Is your general, I guess, thesis mostly the same?

Every. Everything that has to do with money is, is, is people. Has, Involves people. Right. And so, and that's where I look at the, the failure, demise, no returns all comes down to people. It really does. There's successful businesses everywhere. There's been successful businesses for hundreds of years. Right. And so when a business. So why does a business fail if we have all these examples of successful businesses?

I mean, some would say timing, some would say economic changes, some would say technology.

Okay, so who's a company that, you know, maybe got. They were early on timing, but still. Maybe, but still were successful.

I would say Tesla was early on timing. And I guess, I guess we would debate whether or not they're successful. I would say they are Apple. Yeah.

Right. So it's one, it's one of those things or. So why, why were they successful?

I mean, for both.

Their timing was.

For both of those companies, they had a very central thesis, they had a very central mission that they were building. You brought up Apple as an example. I mean, Apple didn't really hit it big until the ipod. That was, that was the thing that really went mass market. But that was just another reflection of the central mission. It was just, it was just another way that they were so serving the customer and it was almost an accident in that sense. And so, so I, I think, I, I think you can be early.

Yeah.

In terms of timing, as long as if you're, if your mission is clear and you're genuine in it, then you just keep serving that person and serving that mission. And then what happens is, is, is, you know, the cards fall where they're going to fall.

So there's a, as you were talking, I was thinking about clients of mine. They're really, they become really good friends. He's a husband and wife. He's actually the European director of FinancialForce, which is one of the biggest ERP software platforms on Salesforce. And she ran, she was a director of development at T Mobile and ran a huge division, all the developers. And she taught me so, so much just about people, about processes, about business. Even though she was in kind of this corporate, corporate world. But where she went after was she works for a private equity group and goes in and actually does an audit. Not of the financials. Right. Of the companies this private equity group is acquiring, but the structure, the structure of people. Right. And that's, you know, she's just taught me a ton about, you know, a person, a role, staying in their lane. Do they have the quality of leadership that's actually going to make the company thrive? Right. I. And this made me realize the profound nature of the bi triangle. The Kiyosaki bi triangle.

Yeah.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with that. Right. But if you look at the most important pieces, right, it's mission, team and leadership. Right. Doesn't get into financials, don't even get into production, product, mission, team and leadership. And that is where, you know, her and I have had some amazing conversations over, over the course of time. Right. Just in regards to what makes a business thrive and what makes it fail. And it's just incredible how Kiyosaki is able to make things so complicated, simple. And the bi triangle, I think, is an overstudied element of the rich dad philosophy, especially when it comes to building a bigger business.

You said overstudied, understudied.

Sorry, okay, sorry.

Okay.

I was thinking about oversight over. And I just said overstudy.

So that's interesting, that team mission leadership, because I was asked today, I was interviewed on a podcast, and somebody asked me on a scale of 1 to 100, how important is product selection in business? And I said, I don't know, somewhere under 20%. And. And they said, what? This, this, this did not. This did not compute. And, and my, my thought is that product is just like another way that you reflect what you are doing as a team in the world.

Yeah.

Like, product is a, is a, is a way that you go about serving the customer, but choosing the product. Product is much less important than choosing the customer, than choosing the team, than choosing the mission. These, to me are much more interesting, difficult and meaningful decisions to make. Well, it's.

What, it's interesting is the 20. 20%. I would first say that, you know, usually when questions. And I learned this as like a, you know, I interview and talk to a lot of people, and I learned that, you know, most questions you asked her to validate. Validate what you already know. And that's why I try to pay attention to, you know, the, the questions that I asked. And it sounds like that guy kind of wanted to just validate what he wanted, what he, what he thought the answer was. But I look at the, the answer you gave the 20 answer. I think business is like 80%. It's 80, 20 rule, right? Prado's law, 80% psychology, 20, you know, 20% tactic. And I, and that's where it's like the product. I don't think product is important. Don't get me wrong. You can't sell something, right without, you know, without a good product.

Same time.

Look at McDonald's, right? That's example, the cliche example that's always used, right, where they just have amazing business systems. I mean, I've been to their Chicago campus. They have a whole like freaking university for McDonald's, like to train managers on business systems, on mission, on understanding the financial side of things. But I look at business owners that are really going from this S quadrant of, you know, the cash flow quadrant to the B quadrant, right. And I think one of the biggest differences, right. Is understanding kind of the fundamentals of business. Because I think those that, you know, are in that S quadrant and get, they get a good home run, a triple, right. And, and just, you know, close their eyes and sign up for events and oh man, went somewhere like sweet, right? It's, it's that happening. You know, they tell a story about why they were successful and the easiest answer is the product.

And sometimes it is. But I think from a business perspective, a growth perspective, when you go to scale, there's less to do with the product and way more to do with the structure behind it.

Have you seen an example in which a business successfully made that pivot from self employed to being a real business? I have found that to be so difficult in so many entrepreneurs that I work with because there's this big switch that has to happen of what am I getting out of this to have cash flow and the life I want to actually building something. And they're almost, I've seen them be almost too different of a mindset for people to make the shift. It's just a different group of strategies.

That have to be learned. Yep. Well, what will come to mind? I'm sure I would say that it really comes down to the hiring that you make at that level, right. You have to hire. Like for me, one of the things I'll talk about my business, one of the lessons I learned was the importance of culture, the culture of your business, the values that you have, what's in bounds, what's out of bounds, and then setting the right expectations and then, I mean there's a whole list of things I can go into. Okay. But really I lost probably 10, 10, 12 employees over the course of nine months because of bad, bad culture. And it was. It was incredibly painful. Right. And what I, what I connect the dots is I did not know how to establish a culture. I did not know how to operate a company.

I just.

I just didn't know. And so what did I do? I went and found someone that did. I hired someone that did. He happens to be older. He has more facial hair than I do. And funny enough, people listen to him not because he understands the business, but because he understands them.

Patrick, you said something to me privately, which was you like to look at older generations as a sign of what younger people should do, or you look for clues. Right. I was hoping you could expound on what you mean and what you've learned. I mean, I think most of your client bases is 60 and over. Is that, Is that right? With a nice base of, like, young entrepreneurs, too. Correct?

Yeah, I would, I would say we have a. We. We did some business back in 2012, 2013, actually. 2012. There's actually still business coming from it today. There was a market, much older audience in their 50s and 60s. And so we, we got a good couple of years of seeing, you know, what people had done up to that point, what made them successful or not successful and what they wanted to do from that point forward. And, and I would say that the older, the older generation, I'll. I'll give it another example. This was a. This was a guy who's whose son I knew. Really, I still know really well. I still vox him. That's one of the guys I box other than a couple others, but incredible guy. But it was with his father, and we were having a conversation about his father wanting to make an investment in this real estate syndication. And it came down to the same principle. I said, you know what? Why do you want to make this investment? Like, what's the purpose? Well, I have this money in the bank, and in the bank it doesn't earn anything. So therefore I need to have it invested. I said, okay, so, you know, know, what are you going to make off of this investment? And he, you know, he told me, and then the questions kept going, okay, what are you going to do with that cash flow? Well, I have enough for, you know, what I live off of right now. And I'm like, okay, so what, you know, what's your monthly nut? What do you need, you know, to have a good lifestyle every month. And he, you know, had retired from some position and had a pension and a few other things, and his income needs were like 50% of what his income already was without that investment. And so I kept questioning and I said, so why, like, why would you make this investment if all it's going to do is give you more money that you're not spending? So again, it goes back to the same principle that we talked about before, right? Is defining the lifestyle that you want. And it doesn't have to be this like, okay, this is the lifestyle I want and I'm never going to be able to grow that. You have to grow it. But at least defining something, something now. And now you know what you're after. Now you know what the investment strategy is until it's time to decide, okay, what else do I want? Because a person going from, you know, living, living In a nice three bedroom, two bath house, right, making $150,000 a year to go into the 5,000 square foot home or a second home, it's not a money shift.

Psychological shift. You have to have the first milestone before you have a second milestone. Does that make sense?

Yeah. What would you mean by the first milestone before the second milestone? What does that mean?

You, you have to, you know, get to $150,000, right. To have the three bed, two bath house instead of the apartment and then to get to the next milestone. Right. Which is the bigger home. It's a psychological, it's a psychological shift and it's a principle of, a principle of growth. Right. And so I look at this older individual and he was just getting more money. He wasn't increasing his lifestyle to.

Correct.

Respond with that. But I think you have to.

Yeah. So what have you learned from the older clients, the high net worth, like older clients who have been in this game for a lot longer than you and I have been alive.

Yeah.

What have you learned from them that should be passed on to other generations?

It's essentially don't waiting to live until then.

It's living as soon as possible right now. Right. It's living for living for right now. Obviously you have to be prepared, have strategy for the future. But most people defer their life, they defer their money and they defer their happiness until some distant point in the future instead of enjoying life right now.

How does that philosophy impact investing strategy?

I think it helps you actually make better decisions and you ultimately have. I think people overshoot their investments.

Right.

They think they need more than they actually.

Well, they think they need a bigger amount of money than they actually need. Right. Whether it's to do the things they want to do with their family. Right. Whether it's to live in a certain home or drive a certain car. The things that make them happy, the have, you know, help them to achieve whatever, you know, milestone of fulfillment they're after.

Why do you say that people need less money than they think they do?

Because it's all this. It's all a process in the mind of what they think they need. No one ever actually sits down and, you know, budgets out exactly what they. Exactly what they need. Plus, with all the different choices that are out there, right, it's much easier to achieve whatever you want to achieve these days than before. But yet most people's mindset is still.

In the past, right?

So I would say, like, let's say you want to go, you know, on a trip to Hawaii, right? There's all sorts. There's a million resorts there, right. There's different seasons, right. A person may think that they need this amount of money in order to get that, but if you actually sit down and budget out and actually do the financials, it takes much less these days. That's what I meant by that.

So we've talked quite a bit about defining what it is that you want before you. Before you fight. It's like measuring twice before you cut. And I think that is like the actual hard work.

When you describe someone else's problem better than you can describe it yourself, you just assume that they have the solution. So right now I just assume that you have the solution to this problem. And I'm hoping you could comment.

No, people don't. People already have the solutions.

Right.

I was telling you about, you know, earlier of this, of an event I went to in Europe, and it was a day that was specifically for a group that makes a good deal of money. And there was seven hours of hot seats. It was fascinating. There's only like five hot seats in that entire time. But it was fascinating, right, because the. This event, it really went through kind of business psychology, business systems, investment psychology, investment systems. And here's this guy, older gentleman, right, and had achieved a lot in his life, you could tell, and had ownership in a really successful business in South America. And he had this challenge of raising a certain amount of money. And he got to the mic and all he did was make excuse after excuse after, excuse me, excuse of why he didn't have that money and why he couldn't get it. Okay? It didn't go into just a very simple switch in psychology of asking the question, how do I get it? And it was interesting. Just over and over and over, he just kept getting to this Point, you know, the solutions from the two people that were running the actual hot seat gave this solution, that solution. As he thought about this. Did you do this? Did you do this? No, no, no. Because of this. No, no, no. Because of that. Over and over and over and over. And then finally, the guy that was the actual head moderator said, okay, I'll write you a check for $10 million right now. Pitch me on your business.

And he couldn't. And he couldn't do it. So why couldn't he do it?

Because he didn't know what he wanted or why he wanted it.

He was. In his own way, he was his own worst enemy. All the solutions were there, there, which is the point of why I'm telling the story. He knew what to do. He knew he had to go to. Okay, and ultimately the hot seat ended really well. Right. But that question was the catalyst. Right? I'll write you a check right now. Pitch me on your business. So he didn't have a good pitch. Right. That was there. If he was asking better questions. Right. The people that actually fund the deal, they were there. He came up with them. Right. It was just. He was in his own way the entire time. All it was was an excuse of why he couldn't. Couldn't, rather than how could he.

And how did that end?

Yeah, he made it. Made a commitment that he was going to pitch these amount of people, like, the next week.

And so it was a matter of.

Like, well, first off, there was two decisions. Are you going to sell the business? Right. Or are you going to continue the business? That was the first big thing. I left that one up.

Okay.

So he decided to keep the business and actually meet with these people that would fund it.

So what was. What was the big shift that happened in that individual? Because Questions. But what you describe is that this person couldn't pitch it because they had no, like, they had no reason why. So what. What shifted in that individual?

He, I would think, made the decision that he wanted to continue the business. I think that was the main challenge that he had. Should I sell or should I keep it?

So, Patrick, I want to play with an idea with you.

I mentioned before that we need an aim. And part of my. What I've evaluated or like, my own challenge at times is just finding which one is a worthwhile aim. I think this idea is why somebody like Jordan Peterson has caught so much fire in the last couple years, because he's identified this idea that we're not really happy without an aim. And in our modern world, we don't have any reason to have an aim because we're just like, food is everywhere. Most of us are overweight. We can sit around all day and survive. So there's a matter of. We're not given an. We're not forced into choosing a name like we, We. We are. We can be lethargic and still survive.

Yeah, it's Haiti versus Switzerland.

Yes. So for me, it is. Sometimes I just pick a name because I have to get up and start moving.

You got to make a decision. That's where it starts then.

And then it's finding meaning later and refining later. And you can.

I. I agree with that. I agree with that. Because it. Do we really know what our aim is? Do we really know what we're after? There's no. There's not this, like, one. There's not this one thing. It's a jer. It's a journey, right? But you need to decide something and take action on it. And in that action, you're going to experience more of. Of what you want, and then you set another aim, another goal, and then you go to that point. But, yeah, I believe that there isn't necessarily this one thing that we're supposed to do in life.

Yeah, I agree with you.

I think the environment is vital, and that's why I brought up Haiti in Switzerland, right? Because if you look at, you know, the history of Haiti, right? It is incredibly beautiful, you know, beautiful island in the Caribbean, right? Fertile soil, fruit everywhere. You know, 100 years ago, it didn't take much to survive, okay. In Switzerland, however, okay, nothing can. Not much can grow there. Really harsh winters. So why today does Switzerland survive and Haiti is one of the poorest countries in the world, right? It's because Switzerland was forced to survive, right? It's built into their DNA. If they didn't prepare for winter, they died. In Haiti, you didn't have to prepare. Okay? And I look at today, people want. They don't. They're afraid of conflict, they're afraid of hard things or afraid of pressure. Okay, but pressure, that refining process, right, is where we learn what we want. So I think you definitely have to go through that. And again, I go to why, you know, I don't not invest or do business with someone that has not failed in the. In the past, right? It's because they don't understand that press principle unless they've actually forced it upon.

Themselves, which you can do when people start working with you. And my assumption, at least, coming into this conversation, my assumption was that these are people who had pursued something for a reasonable amount of time, and now they were refining and they were looking for help on the investment side. And you've kind of thrown in that a lot of them don't know what they want anymore. So how do you help them?

It's subjective, right? I think a lot of the questions that I've asked you. Right. Is what I will ask them. So there's no one, there's no one solution for everyone. At the same time, there's some similarities, right? So the first thing is, again, it goes to that gap, right? There's where you're at and there's where you want to be. Got to figure out where you want to be, right, before you can start strategizing on how to get through or over that gap. Does that make sense?

Yes.

Right. And then the gap is easy. The solutions are out there, right? Finance, I mean, finance is way more complicated than people make it out to be, right? You, it's way more complicated. Make more money or made less complicated. Sorry. Thank you for correcting me on this. It totally would not come out right in the coffee. No, it's way less complicated than people think, especially today.

So, so explain what you mean. Why is it, why is it less complicated?

Because there's so many options of how to make money, Especially if someone like a business owner, right, has, you know, achieved for themselves. I think that the best thing to look at is where their skill set is and what they're going to do, right. Before they figure out what that next, that next step is. Because that next step or that, that aim the other side of the gap, right, could be the lifestyle that they want. It could be things that they want to do with their family, it could be things they want to do charitably, but they still have to figure out what they're going to do, right? So I think that's first, first and foremost, then it's figuring out, okay, where, where's their financial statement out? Most people don't really have a good living financial statement, believe it or not, even really wealthy people. And some, and some do. Some have good accounting, right? So it's just a matter of, you know, know, sending a financial statement over but looking at where they're at, right? It comes down to, all right, how much more money do you need at that point in the, in the future, right? And now it's a function of, okay, what type of rate of return are you going to get? And, and surprisingly, some people don't need as much as they think they need or they need a much better kind of tax efficient return. And ultimately you find that a lot, a lot of tax efficient returns are less, but they net out at a very similar rate. Net out meaning after taxes, they're similar to an investment that's taxed at or that earns a higher return but is taxed more.

Well, Patrick, I know you've written a book, you have a podcast, you run Paradigm Life, you do a bunch of things. Where can people find out more or where can people follow you? Yeah.

I think that with you to maybe fill in a lot of the void, voids that probably exist right now and what people have learned with what we've talked about. I think the book took me two years. Right. And it really provides a kind of comprehensive philosophy that, that I have. And, and there's also an audiobook. So I've read the. Read the book. Not read the audiobook, but read the book. So it's, it was a really difficult time. It was really enjoyable and I can.

Are you going to tell people what it's called? Oh yeah, yeah, go ahead.

I'm sure they can just. I mean, Patrick Donahoe isn't like a, you know, common name, is it? It's heads or tails or Heads I win, tails you lose. I can't remember the name. Heads I win, tails you lose. A financial strategy to reignite the American dream. And the website is Heads or tails I win.com.

And your company is Paradigm Life.

Yep. And PL Wealth Advisors. And I'm also an advisor with Prosperity Economics Partners.

Beautiful. And who's your who. Who should reach out to you? High net worth individuals who are scattered all over the place and need a, A plan for them to build something for the future. Yes.

Yeah. And those I would say who are maybe less successful as well. I'm not sure who your audience, who your audience is and how dare we can, we can break script. I mean. Yeah, because we. I have 20. I mean I have 20 advisors. So it's one of those. We have guys that basically run our high net worth people, but then we have in our average clients probably million bucks net worth, 200,000 a year in income. So how do you want to pitch that?

I think you just did.

Okay.

Well, Patrick, I'm really excited about what, what we're up to together. I'm really excited to. I mean, I don't think a lot of people know the story. I met Tim Ferriss because of you, at least one of the times. And we had dinner with him in a night I won't forget. You're kind of one of the undersung heroes in our world because you're kind of behind the scenes and I think you prefer it that way most of the time. And so I'm just excited to be bringing this to the world. Thanks for hanging out with us.

Well, that might. Do you want to go into that? Like the whole idea of relationships?

Yeah, actually, let's do that.

Yeah, I think that's a huge, a huge principle.

So one of the, one of the things I've connected and this is one of the reasons I do the Tony Robbins stuff is I want to be around. I didn't like to be around people. I was really introverted growing up and dude, so this is totally true story. Don't put this on film. Maybe you will, but. So my wife, I'm married almost 16 years. She was like my first serious relationship ever. I had kind of like this kind of girlfriend when I was a senior, but never anything serious. And so I'm not sure when it was. I think it was the financial crisis that was very kind of traumatic for me. And I just connected this, this idea of being around people with who I wasn't. But I wanted to actually be around people. I love people. I love learning from them. When you learn from Tony Robbins, proximity is power, right? It's not about how, it's about who. And that's where I built a really cool network of people that inspire me, that teach me because I think we all need it. We're all looking for that aim in life and it's this never ending pursuit. But, but there's a lot of shit on online, but there's a lot of amazing people who, who understand those principles and want to guide and create, and create value. And Cameron Herald and Simon Sinek. I've never, I've met Cameron Herald a few times, never met Simon Sinek. But like when I was going through that heartache with culture because I, you know, had a huge falling out with guys that became my friends and with a sibling of one of the leaders of the company and several others, a huge cultural fallout. And dude, it was heart wrenching. But those two guys, like people have solutions. They've written about it, they do seminars about it, there's podcasts about it. The information for any problem is not a matter of how, it's a matter of who.

I think my takeaway there is, I think the greatest investment you can possibly make is in relationships.

Million percent man. And totally.

And it's why, I mean, I was telling somebody today, they asked me what the Greatest breakthroughs in my career were. And I said they actually came through the trough, like after I had gone through a hard time and I was humble enough to create new relationships. And when you set up your life to get around the who, all the other stuff just kind of works out. Shakes out, dude.

It totally does. And it's interesting. I think we're. If you look at, like, our DNA, it's hardwired in us. Like, we. We didn't used to sleep in separate rooms. Right. People always slept together, they always ate together. It's like built into us. But yet today we've, you know, in a sense, we're connected, but we're not connected.

Right.

People don't have to leave their home and can eat and be online and. But there's something about physically being with other people and learning from them and connecting with them. It's one of those other human needs, the need for love and connection. So I look at that, and that was something that totally transformed my life, is wanting to be around certain people because of who they were and what I could learn from them and what I could teach them. That's where the ultimate value proposition exists, is where. With relationships.

I have nothing to add.

I mean, I think that's fundamentally why we do everything.

Yeah.

I mean, the only reason why we even care about investing as a topic is because there's some wiring in our brain of connecting to other human beings. And it's almost embarrassing how primitive it becomes when you break it down to what actually drives us.

Yeah.

We're made to. We are driven, I think, by two things, fear and love. Fear is survival. Love is survival of everybody else. Love feels good. Fear feels bad. We don't want to die. It feels good to be in a position where we're not going to. Where we're not going to die and we can take care of other people. Like that is what drives us at the end of the day.

Yeah. It's to avoid. Yeah. Avoid pain or to get some pleasure.

How do we get more pleasure? Patrick, take us home.

All subjective. It's all subjective. You gotta sit down and really think about what you really want. And don't get up until you ask yourself, why? Why do you want that? Why do you want the business? Why do you want this lifestyle? Why do you want to move there? Why do you want to stay here? Why do you want to drive that car? Car? Why do you want to wear those clothes? Why? I mean, just keep asking yourself why? And you're going to. And you're going to connect to something. It doesn't mean that's what you're going to connect to in five years or 10 years, but you're going to connect to something now and put that on paper, decide what you want and then go find the people that have achieved it and figure out what they did to get.

I think if you decide what it is that you want. I once laid out the five steps to freedom. They were decide, cut out, expand, invest and give. And the number one was decide. Because if you cannot make that, then you are just guessing and you don't ever get what you want because you never define what you want.

Have you ever. Have you taken your daughter to Disney World for Disneyland?

I have not, no.

But you've taken her to some pretty cool place places and have her and have had her experience certain things that just like lit her eyes up, right?

I mean she has been to Cleveland, Ohio. Patrick.

Wow.

Yeah.

Did you go to an Indians game at least?

Sure. Hell yeah. Are you kidding?

But that's what it's about, man. It's like. And that's with other people. It's with other people too. When you, I don't know, there's something. And this where it comes to, you know, connecting with customers.

Right?

Because business is about the value you provide to customers. When a customer gives you a good review or says something nice or their life changes because of a product or something you said makes dude, it makes everything, everything worth it. And.

Seldomly do people then connect the dot between me. Maybe that should be my focus on everything that I do.

Well, Patrick, I'm really excited to be doing this with you. Looking forward to hanging out with you more.

Cool. Yeah, me too.

Thanks for joining us on capitalism.com thanks Ryan.