Start Late & Finish Rich: How To Create Passive Income At Any Age

What's up, capitalists? This is Ryan Daniel Moran and you're about to watch Wine with Wyan with my buddy Tom Burns here, who is a full time real estate investor and orthopedic surgeon. Why? Both because he prioritizes his lifestyle and what is meaningful over everything else. So in this episode, you are going to learn how to invest in real estate, what types of deals you should look for. You're going to learn all of this and more while Tom and I drink wine and talk about life and business. Enjoy this chat with Tom Burns.

Hey, 1 percenters, what's going on? Welcome back to Wine with Wyan. I have the best job in the world tonight. Tom won't brag on himself, so I will brag on him and he'll watch. He'll get all embarrassed and he'll say.

You'Ll see the red coming.

And he'll say, no, no, no, no, no, not me. I'm not that big a deal. And I'm here to tell you, he's that big of a deal. Tom is one of the most respected real estate investors in the city of Austin, Texas. He what do you, how much of the city do you own? 27%.

Just a quarter.

Now, if I'm remembering correctly, you are overseeing the building, the build that's happening just down the street, right?

Yes.

The medical complex part of it, yes. So you know all the construction that you see happening in this booming economy. That's Tom at work. He's got a hard hat on and he's building all these buildings. Tom, Tom puts together large real estate deals. Is that a fair summary?

Yes, sir.

Now, I know it didn't always start with you, with you doing large deals. We'll go into kind of your backstory a bit. But would you walk us through what a typical investment deal looks like these days?

Yeah, for us, you know, usually we'll do, we do our, our main sort of our lane is apartments. We'll do, we've done some medical offices and we'll do apartments and things like that. It's usually a new apartment complex, ranges from 35 to 45 million dollars for a build.

We'll either identify the land or we'll identify a developer that's got the land already. We'll partner with them, bring the equity, get the debt, put it together, work with the architects.

And that means that you're bringing the funding to the table. But you also said the architects, so that has nothing to do with funding. So are you bringing together the different systems that that person needs to do in order to build that vision that they have.

Like everything. It's a team. It's a team of people, and everybody has their expertise.

And you're basically the team lead.

Yes.

And you're the. You're the quarterback. The running back is the funding.

Yes.

And the wide receiver is the. The architect, if you will. And you're the one going, all right, everybody, let's all get together and run a play.

And it's not. It's not me. It's my team. It's our. It's our team, my business partner, and all of us. I don't want to take all the credit.

Yeah.

In fact, I deserve probably less of the credit than the rest of my team.

Humblest man in Texas. Everything is big in Texas except for Tom Burns ego. He is a very humble man. He's underselling himself. So you have a network of people that you partner with to invest in some of these deals. And then you have a network of architects who have done all kinds of different deals. And a deal sometimes to your desk because they have a type of deal that somebody wants to do or a type of complex that the city wants to do or something like that.

When and how does a deal come to your attention?

So it comes all kinds of ways. We're looking all the time. There's brokers sending us stuff. There's builders and developers sending us things. So we look, you know, it takes. You gotta kiss a lot of frogs, as they say. You gotta see a lot of deals. And so for us, it's all about our investors. So if we believe that we can put something together based on the numbers that we have and the projections that we have, we've got big data sources that we pull data from. And if we think the market's right, the project's right, the costs are right, and our investors can make a good return, then we look at the backside of the spreadsheet and see if we're gonna make any money. Cause our investors get paid first. So if it's gonna be good for the investors, we might make a little something on the back end and we pull the trigger.

Yeah. And when an investor. When an investor is investing with you, they're just a passive investor that is just trusting your expertise and your team. Correct?

Correct. Yes.

So when and how did you build that investor network?

Over a long period of time. It's all trust and relationships. So.

That started probably about 15 or 20 years ago. Was doing my own stuff, buying little things here and there.

What's a little thing Back then.

Oh, I had little condominiums at the University of Texas. You know, I got in there before they got too expensive. So I have quite a few of those now and then. The ugliest one was the old thing out in North Austin. It was pretty ugly. It was really ugly. But it had an AT&T tower on it. And with an AT&T tower, they direct deposit enough money to cover the entire mortgage and produce a profit. So whatever rent I got from the houses was all extra gravy. So it was pretty ugly. Anyway, I got that sold, and. But over time, the deals just got a little bit bigger. And eventually, as everybody says, you run out of money. And so I ran out of my money, so I had to go get some other people.

When you ran out of money, you mean you were. Because you were investing it?

Yeah, there were deals got big enough that I needed. I needed some more money. So we just started. Just started telling people about the deals. I was excited about them. Partnered up with a couple of good partners. I've had two really good partners in my time and eventually partnered up with one. And we built a large medical complex that brought some. Some physicians and other investors into that. Not to the medical complex. I actually built a hospital. I brought a bunch of doctors into that.

Doctors were your investors, you mean?

Yes, yes. That owned the hospital. I can't recommend building a hospital.

It was 15 years of my life. I'd like back. But we just eventually started doing larger and larger projects. First really big one was probably back in 2000. Well, first really big was in 2000. And then the first big apartment complex was 2009, 2010. And we just went out to our network and, you know, back in 2009 and 10 was a great time to build an apartment complex. We didn't know it back then, but it was a really bad time to raise money.

Nobody was given loans. No banks were given loans. Nobody was loosening up the purse string. So it was really hard to get the money.

So before you finish this story, I'm trying to put some pieces together. Was it 2008, 9, 10, that you really started doing bigger deals?

And that's when we started doing the apartments.

So before. Before then, you were doing hospitals and stuff on your own?

Yeah, no, with a partner. With another partner.

Okay. But. Okay, so where I'm really going with this is. Was it only 10 years ago that you really started to make it?

Yes, I think so.

Really?

Well, it was a. It was a slow burn. You know, my whole. My whole thing was to Create passive income. And you know, it came slowly and then that sort of snowballed on itself. And then in about, about, over the 2000-2010 period, it was growing, was being, it was getting pretty nice, making life a little nicer. And about 10 years ago is when it just sort of exponentially did that. So that's when it really happened.

That's fascinating. See, Tom, you give me hope for my life. This is, this is why I admire you so much. Because, you know, in our, in our last lucky. Well, in our last podcast together, you told me that you really didn't start this career as an investor until you were 35.

That's right.

And that it took you 10 years to really feel like you were getting much progress.

Correct.

And it was only 10 years ago that you felt like you started hitting the exponential curve. And I think I can tell you're 61 now.

Is that still 60?

You're 60 and you're long.

Yeah.

Yes. I mean, you still, you still serve as a surgeon from time to time, which is your, is your training and your background. And so you give me hope because in this crazy Internet world, it's so easy to compare yourself to the, the 23 year old mark Zuckerberg, who is a billionaire. And I want to shoot him in his face because he's, you know, he's like, those anomalies are normal now because they're all over the place, but we think they're normal. Right, exactly. And you're just, you're, you have gone slower and steadier, but you maintain the lifestyle that you really wanted from what seems to be your entire career.

Right.

And that's the case.

Yeah, it is. And if you think about, you know, I mean, I was replacing an orthopedic surgeon's income, it's a little higher than some others. And so that may be why it took longer. So it can happen if you're just slow and steady, it just starts building on itself. I just tell everybody, just put something in the asset column so it produces some money over time. If it's a dollar, if I can make a dollar a month that I'm not working for, I'm happy because one day it's going to be 10 and then it'll be 100 and you start adding things to it and eventually that money starts making babies and it starts filling things and it just steamrolls like this. And that's what happened over that first 10 years.

Yeah. It'.

Tempting to fall into the sexy promise of fast results.

Absolutely.

And so it's just really, really, it brings me some peace to hear you talk about. I think, I think we need to drink to that. Ladies, do you have an empty wine glass over there? I think we need to introduce you to the 1% over here. This is Chrissa Benson, ladies and gentlemen. Chris, I don't know if they can hear you, but can you shout a little bit about yourself?

Krissa Benson. My company's called Physical Kitcheness where I create healthy and happy recipes for families.

And the face of Foxbrimm Naturals. Luann Korper, come on over here. Welcome to Wine with Lion.

I'm excited to be here.

You love being on camera, don't you?

Luann is the leader of Fox Brim Naturals. So, Chrissa, you hang out a lot with people like me who are Internet folks.

Yes.

And fall into the trap of fast riches. What does your brain do when you hear Tom talk about his journey?

I felt the same kind of peace because I get a little bit wound up with wanting to do something in a timeline, in a three or six month thing. So knowing it's about the journey sometimes and not the destination, it's really exciting.

Amen to that. Thank you. Tom, what do you tell people that you do? Do you say that you're an investor or a surgeon?

It sometimes depends on the situation. You know, I tell Mama Gigolo if it's the right situation.

You know, so I tell them I'm. I just tell them I wear multiple hats, you know, part time surgeon and full time real estate investor.

That's great.

Yeah.

Since there's so many people who are watching and.

Like myself who kind of fall into that Internet trap of building like build a big company and sell it or build a big company and you'll be rich forever. Being on the other side of that, having achieved this success and it taking 25 years, what would you say to people like me? What advice would you give them?

You know, well, first, you know, those of us on the slow passive income course, we envy.

Oh my goodness, the comparison game is universal, isn't it?

Absolutely. You know, the grass is always greener and there's always a fence in between.

So I would say that, you know, it's a long journey to use her word. And you know, as you were mentioning before we got started, I try not to level up that angst too much and enjoy it while you're on the journey, you know, enjoy yourself along the way. Just, I used to tell my wife that I don't care what we do or how successful we Are as long as we're having fun along the way, you know, so have fun, enjoy it. But I tell you, persistence does win the game. You just keep adding blocks on top and eventually they get big. It's like Gary and J's book. It's like the one thing they talk about. Dominoes.

Yeah.

One small domino today, you know, a year from now knocks over big dominoes. And that can be big projects or a big company or something like that. You just have to do something every day to move yourself forward.

Well, Tom, I don't know if it's an Internet entrepreneur thing, but I know so many people who are not having fun and that are trapped in the angst of the lack of results versus the excited pursuit of growth. And can you tell me from your perspective, is it more the mindset you started with and that you just continue to cultivate, or did you have a point in which you were feeling the angst and you made a pivot?

You know, I think I've just been cursed with a positive attitude.

I'm asking purely selfishly because I find myself in the trap comparing myself to other people or feeling the angst of where I am compared to where I want to be.

Right.

And you're saying, well, you know, enjoy the process. Of course I know that intellectually. But please tell me that somebody else struggles with this.

Everybody does. And of course I have. I do. I mean, I absolutely look at the guys that sell their companies. And I wrote a section in my book about the Internet millionaires in Austin back in the 2000s. You know, I'm struggling away, trying to buy a condo or two here and there. I spoke yesterday, spoke to a bunch of doctors yesterday in Florida. I was given the keynote address. And the main first half of the talk was about the mind. You know, our wellness is mind, body and spirit. And the mind is really a powerful thing. We can choose our own attitude. You can just choose to be happier. You can. I know it sounds real touchy feely, but you know, a little perspective helps. And prior to that talk, I'm sitting at lunch with a guy who really working on this. And before we ate, he said, I just want to have a little bit of gratitude. The fact that I'm not having to work today. I'm getting to have a nice conversation with you. It's just small wins. So, you know, we're not, we're not, many of us are not being shot at. We're not carrying our water out of croc infested waters to wash our clothes. So A little perspective helps and, you know, try to just enjoy the ride. I don't know how better to put it.

Have you had any deals go south or have you had any days where you wanted to give up? Have you had.

Tell me more.

How much wine do you have?

We got plenty, Tom.

Don't you worry. It's, it's, it's all, it's all two steps forward, one step back. I've lost a bunch, a bunch of money. Been. Been slapped in the face by, by life. I've been, I've been connected up with literally pure criminals, I think, and con men and stuff like that. So, yeah, that kind of stuff happens. We got a deal happening right now. It's supposed to close tomorrow. And you know, the insurance company threw us a little curveball about an hour and a half ago. So that kind of stuff happens. It's just a matter of course. So, yeah, all the time. And I wrote in the book, you know, how our mistakes teach us lessons and it helps us move forward, but when it's happening, it's not a whole lot of fun.

I wish I could tell you I was real Zen and knowing that this was a lesson that was happening, but that's not the case. But you do eventually look back and realize it's all worth it.

So, Tom, I want to ask you, I know you, you got back from Florida today. I think you're giving a speech to a group of doctors.

Yep.

And really your specialty is, since you're a doctor who broke out of the Dr. Rat race. That rat race being doctors have a high salary, but they also have high expenses, high debt. They think they need to live in a big house and they drive nice cars and they're just trapped in this cycle forever. You broke, you broke out of that by investing in real estate. And I know you give speeches and you've written a book that is coming out pretty soon about escaping that rat race that doctors get in. What advice do you give them to escape that high paying job trap?

I tell them the first step back and think about, you know, think about mindset like I was just talking about. Use their mind, realize life isn't that bad. A lot of doctors are unhappy, you know, a lot of doctors are unhappy with their work and they're not going to get a whole lot of sympathy from the rest of the world. That's still the number one job statistically by polls in the country. But I tell them to get back and I tell them to go get some education if they want to step out and do something else. If they want to quit, great, good for them. I support that. Then, you know, do what I've done or you've done and, and you know, burn the candle at both ends. That's what I did. Burn the candle at both ends for a long time. Now I'm down to only 14 hour days.

But that's by choice. I tell them to try to. If they want to create some sort of freedom and latitude and some choice in their life. I tell them to find a way to create some passive income in order to start that. It starts in the mind. It always starts in the mind. Then get some education. And they're experts at education. They should be really good at it. But it's kind of sometimes hard to crack that shell, you know, because doctors, they know everything. So I tell them to get around people.

I tell them to start associating with people that are maybe outside their usual framework. People like you people, you know, people that just get into a different network, find out that there's more life out there and eventually what happens to him is. It's like a light bulb. It really. Sorry, I'm talking to you guys. It's like a light bulb.

There's pretty girls behind you.

I know.

But it is like a light bulb. People will come up. I've given talks to doctors and said, you know, just giving them sort of a high level view of what's possible. I've given 20 minute talks and spent two hours answering questions. Literally people saying, I had no idea that was possible. I was always taught X, Y and Z. And you're the first person that's ever opened my eyes. So it's really just be open and you know, kind of have an open accepting attitude and then go, go start learning about what's out there in life and people find their paths.

And what routes do you usually see doctors go down in order to start generating passive income?

Yeah, yeah. Well, first they try to get an extra job, which is not passive income.

Yeah, no good.

It's called side gigs and side hustles, you know, they're calling them. And really all they're doing is just adding an extra job onto what they're doing. It's got some benefits, can produce extra income and if you don't spend the stuff, you can use that to make some passive income. So most of them right now are getting into real estate. Everybody's getting to multifamily real estate. I mean, everybody's getting into multifamily real estate. And if, you know, if you watch life Life is curves. Right. So pretty much that's the hot thing right now. So I think it's, it's. I think it's playing itself out a little bit.

I understand.

You know, am I in that? Absolutely. But, you know, we, I've got a full team. We did two deals.

Yeah. You've been doing this for 30 years.

Yeah. And it takes, we have a whole team looking for deals and we still only did two deals last year, so.

Wow.

It's hard to find good ones and so a lot of them are going into that. But real estate has always been good. I like real estate. There's other ways to make passive income in your world. There's ways to do it if you can systematize it. Most of them are going into real estate.

Okay, got it.

Yeah.

So most, that, that's the most common path that a lot, a lot of doctors are going down.

Right.

And for people who are not doctors, would you recommend that they go down the same route?

Absolutely. It's been great to me, you know, Tell me more.

I like real estate. There are plenty of other things and I won't talk about them because I don't have the, I don't have the knowledge base, as you know, as I proved. But real estate's been around a long time and it's, it's slow moving. You don't, you know, you can do it. You can do it part time or full time. You can do it by yourself or with partners. You can use lots of leverage. The laws right now are awesome for real estate. Is it really difficult right now as far as pricing and things like that? Absolutely. But there's always a deal out there, so you can find something and you can use, you can leverage other people. You don't have to do everything yourself, as we were talking about before this. You can leverage other people's expertise and knowledge and time. You can do that in the real estate world or syndications, where you can tag into a team that already has the infrastructure available, has the debt, and has the deal itself. But that's also where your education comes into play because you've got to know who you're dealing with. You've got to make sure you can trust them. And you have to know what things to look for for people that are maybe taking your money and putting it into something.

Tom, you made the comment earlier that everything is in the mind or everything starts in the mind. What do you mean when you say that?

Well, we talk, you know, we talk about being, talk about being wealthy or being rich.

Right.

So you know, who's that story for you? Who's wealthy? You can have a doctor that makes $400,000 a year, works from 6 in the morning till 7 at night, comes home, barely knows his kids names, falls in bed and wakes up again the next day to go back and be a rich doctor. He lives in a nice house, lives in a, and drives a pretty good car. You could have another guy makes $50,000 a year. He makes it all passively. That guy gets to do anything he wants. He can build that business larger or he can travel the world, but he's got that money coming in every year if he's got his expenses covered. Passively.

I would challenge you or anybody to say who's the richer person in that, you know, because wealth's not just money, it's time, it's relationships, it's self growth.

I've had the realization recently that the whole reason why I went down the route of pursuing freedom in the first place was because I was after a feeling. And I was after a feeling of creativity, a feeling of ease, a feeling of spontaneity, a feeling of fun. I wanted to be able to pursue and enjoy those things. And I spent so much time and so many years working to get there that once I get there, I was very unpracticed in fun and excitement and spontaneity. I was very well practiced in hard work and grind and worry and fear. And this period of my life has been relearning. How to dream like that again and experience the pleasure of having that experience again. When I look at you, you seem to have a very easy, playful Persona and personality.

I mean, I've never called you or emailed you and you've been too busy.

Oh no.

Right. And we've hung out like four or five times. And so like, I don't expect to be at the top of your priority list. And yet you always got time for me and you've always, it seems like you've always got time for people who need you. So you seem to have that easy, playful.

Space in your life. And I want to know, did you have to practice at that or did you have to relearn that at one point?

I think I always wanted to have fun doing what I was doing. Yeah.

There'S never, there was never a goal that couldn't be dropped if it, if it wasn't really. Yeah.

Has there ever been a big goal that you were in pursuit of that you dropped?

I can't remember probably, but it probably won't come to mind now.

But what you're saying is, like, you were. You were more protective of the fun than the goal.

Yeah, I was, but always a hard worker. You know, I always wanted to do. If I, If I was given a job, it was going to be 100% effort. It was going to be the best. But that, you know, that may be 100% effort to my real estate or to whoever's getting surgery from me, but it's also going to be to go to Peru or going to Kazakhstan or something like that. I want to go play. I want to see every country in the world. So that's. I'm going to give 100% to that. So maybe part of it was inborn because I was always having you having fun. Life's not perfect, for sure. I can promise you I have ups and downs and, you know, we get. We get down and we get up, but I don't know. This is, you know, just coming out tonight. This was a fun thing for me. Of course, I've always got time for you. Thanks for you guys, too.

So when you're looking back at your career, you had that hockey stick moment that you said happened like 10 years ago or so. Was there something that changed to give you that hockey stick moment, or was it just the natural course of doing the right thing for a long period of time?

It was that accumulation of the 10 years before just adding. Literally adding something to the asset box that produced income I didn't have to work for because it wasn't always real estate. I put anything in there, anything that was going to give me money that I didn't have to do surgery or see a patient or do an activity for, I would add it in there. And that stuff's slow. That's what's kind of sometimes disconcerting. You'll make a few extra bucks a month, and it doesn't change your life, right? Well, you do two of those and it still doesn't change your life, but at least it's twice as good. And over time, that stuff just keeps coming. And that's money that you. That you're. That's additive to everything else you're bringing on. So if you keep doing that, eventually that, that. That snowball gets bigger and bigger. And eventually you got a big enough ball to. To put it down there and it starts making more. Yeah, that's. So that's where the hockeys. It was just kind of a nice little growth. But during that 10 years, in my world as a surgeon.

In fact, I can think of the first time I did something that was fun. I had Friday afternoon office. So I'm an orthopedic surgeon. So I fix broken stuff and things. I was a young doctor in town and I had Friday afternoon office and everybody knew it. So they'd send people into me all the time. So I was operating at 5 o' clock and after office I'd operate at 5 o' clock in the afternoon on Fridays. I was working all the time on Fridays. I finally started making enough passive income. I thought, I'm just going to drop that. Friday afternoon I dropped a four hour office and my life changed all of a sudden. I had a two and a half day weekend. That was the first thing I ever did, that was the first taste of freedom and that really. That whetted the appetite. Yeah.

And how long have you been practicing when you got the two and a half day weekend?

That was probably two to four years.

Two to four years into being.

Into being an orthopedic surgeon. Okay. Yeah, See, I did it pretty quick.

So Tom, you have children that are grown, right? Two, I think.

Two, I believe. Yeah.

Once on one daughter. Is that right?

Yes, sir.

What advice will you give your children as they pursue financial independence?

I've always said them first, always give your best. Whatever you're doing, taking out the trash, give your best. It's just, you know, that's, that's sort of number one mantra. The first thing I told, okay, I'm going to be honest and real with you guys. The first thing I told both of them was to read one book. It was Robert's book. It's called Rich Dad, Poor Dad. A lot of people know that book. It's just a good start. Kind of turns your brain a little bit. And I'll tell your entire audience, I'm still waiting for both of them to read it.

Honest answer. They both come to me and said, I'd like to learn, I'd like to do what you do. My son said, I'd like to come work for you. I said, you ain't got any skills so you can't work for me.

So that's an honest answer. Neither one of them's read the book, so they haven't got a lot of.

Advice from me that's really interesting.

So I would tell that. I would tell them to get educated and open their minds a little bit. Like I would tell if you were a physician or I'd tell anybody, just start learning what's out there, you know? So start learning a little bit. Start associating. With some folks, doing it. And your mind will open up a little bit.

Now you have the fortune of having a personal relationship with Robert Kiyosaki. The two of you are homies.

At this point. You have reached a certain level of success that.

You'Re not going to hang out with Robert to learn what the latest and greatest is going on. You've reached a certain level of success. So I want to know, besides how to generate passive income, what has your relationship with Robert Kiyosaki taught you?

Oh, man.

Be surprised. We talk a lot of spiritual stuff. Eckhart Tolle, Mark Singer. I mean a lot of self and ego and humility. So most of what we talk about is team loyalty, ego, personal development. We don't talk money anymore.

That's fascinating. That's fascinating. And so where my brain naturally goes is we've talked about the fact that you've had bad days. I've had bad days. Doctors have bad days. Does Robert Kiyosaki have bad days?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Those are usually censored moments. Just go. Can I ask a quick question?

Yes, ma'.

Am.

When you were in the grind, you were in that hustle where you were trying to figure out what was the thing and you were raising children, what would you say to parents, entrepreneurs who are dealing with, you know, raising kids and trying to find that balance of playing and hustling and grinding, what would you tell yourself back then?

So I made a conscious decision. This was before I had, I made a conscious decision back then. I had the priority list. It was, it was God, family, freedom, work. That was my priorities. So I would, back before I had passive income, I would cancel an office.

I'd cancel my doctor's office, like a vacation day. I would just cancel it so that I could go to school and read to the first graders. I would always make time for children. So maybe you can't do that all the time, but that's what I did. So my greatest, you know, my greatest award, my greatest trophy in the world is that my 31 year old daughter's friends still call me the fun dad to this day.

That's true.

My biggest trophy.

So you know what I'm realizing from hearing him answer this question, Chrisa? Realizing that what I'm finally getting, what your superpower is, what's that? You prioritize what's important to you. And so many of us as entrepreneurs prioritize what has to get done, not what's important.

You're letting something else prioritize.

That's exactly right.

You have to decide.

And so. And so you just said, no, no, no, no, no. God. Family, freedom, then work. So if work conflicts with me reading to the first graders.

Sorry, Work.

I'm gonna go read to the first graders.

Oh.

Why do we make it so hard on ourselves? Yes. Cheers. Cheers to that one. Like, why do we make life so hard? We got into this game for fun, like, I do. I'm so guilty of this. See Money. I'm so guilty of this. Oh, I want to be Tom when I grow up. Because it's just so easy to wake up in the morning, go, and first question, what were sales and what do I have to do today? It's so easy to go there, but you would never wish that upon someone that you cared about. Like, so, Kris, if you are ever stressed at work, I'm like, dude, go on. Like, please go on vacation. Like, I want you to be happy. It's so easy for me to do that for you. And yet for myself, I never do that.

You need to be out on that lake every morning on a jet ski cold plunge.

Yeah, really. But I'm so practiced in thinking about what do I need to get done? And it's easier for my brain to go there than to go, what do.

I want to do? What do I want?

What am I excited about? What sounds fun, but yet I know intellectually that if I prioritize what's fun, my work gets better.

Yeah, Right, Right.

I think you might have just given me the final lesson that I need to finally get that.

Well, you're an achiever. You know, you're an achieve. You want to get it done right. But if you, you know, you'll. If you just switch a little bit, you know, you'll get that same achievement. In fact, the achievement actually becomes. It multiplies. It just gets better. Like, one time in my life, I quit doing something. I quit taking call at the hospitals. I got busier. I just, you know, I just thought, this is not good for the family. So I stopped, you know, doing emergency calls. I got busier. Life. Life just gives you. What do you mean you got.

You got busier? You mean that more people started calling?

Yeah, more people came into my office. This was again, before I had all the real estate. I just. That was getting. It was interfering with family time. So I stopped doing, you know, emergency call, those sort of things. And the world, or karma or whatever it was, just made me busier.

But by busier, you mean business got better.

Business got better. Yeah. Yeah.

Can't explain it.

Yeah. I know, I needed that one. I can't explain that. I really do believe that when we're communicating, we're using words to come to try and convey something much deeper going on. Right. Right. I'm having a feeling or a block of thought, and then I'm communicating it to you, and you're doing the same thing back. But where we really communicate is if I understand the feelings and the thoughts that you're having, and I don't just respond to the words that you're saying. And so, so often I think when you are in a stressed emotion and you're communicating, you're really communicating from a place of stress. And when you just relax, that your phone rings off the hook, because now there is. There's no more of that stress that you are communicating to clients and customers. So I really do believe there's something to that. I don't know that I'm right, but I think I'm at least scratching at the surface to how we really. To really. We really operate.

You can feel when somebody's just grinding and when somebody's pretty. Pretty. Just comfortable in their space, you can just feel it. Don't you think?

Yes.

You can just tell, you know.

Well, this was one of the things I noticed about you. I remember. I remember I told you that I was, like, looking to make new friends in town.

Yeah.

And I met you, and I was like, this is somebody I need to be friends with.

I was so shocked.

This is someone I need to be friends with. He's. He's very. He's happy, he's successful, he's stressful. I have something to learn from this.

Person that came from one with Patrick.

That's right.

Sat down with Patrick and just. Just talked.

That's right. Yeah.

What a fortuitous event. You do.

You do pick up on things very quickly. So a question came in from Daniel Weaver. In your opinion, what makes, like, what criteria makes a real estate deal worth doing for you? What are you looking for when. When you're deciding if a deal is worth. Are you looking at the percent return or is there a different metric that you're looking at? What do you. How do you analyze a deal?

If it's an acquisition, it's got to make money today. You can't be. I don't buy. And our company doesn't buy on speculation, assuming that the value is going to be more years to come. We buy on cash flow, so it's got to be. It's all cash flow. So. And there's metrics we use Net operating income and things like that. But it's got to make money today. And then it just depends on how much we want to make. You know, right now you, you don't get to choose how much you make. Right now, you're making less. If you want to buy something now, your expectations have to be a bit lower. We also develop, so developing, we're developing that for cash flow. But it takes two years, sometimes three years before that happens. Because you got to buy the land, you got to put the sticks up, you got to put the concrete down, but it's got to, it has to produce cash flow.

And then secondarily what we look at, we. Our world follows jobs. You know, if there's jobs, if there's people moving into the area, the job market's good. Jobs, jobs create people that need apartments and real estate and things like that. So primary thing is it has to make me money.

It has cash flow from day one.

It's got to have cash flow. Yeah, yeah.

So I remember Robert Kiyosaki saying that a lot of people will buy things in the hope that the paper value goes up. And that's speculating.

That's why when he's buying a stock, he only buys a stock that's producing a dividend.

Right.

Rather than buying a stock that he thinks is going to go up in value. Do you buy into that concept 100%?

I don't, you know, because I can't predict what's going to go in the future. In the future. And I've done well sometimes on, on capital gains and sometimes I've missed out on some things. Yeah, it's just got the. Whatever life we describe that I have. That's not perfect, but it's nice. Is, has all come from cash flow. It's all been catch. My whole focus in life was just putting something, if y' all have seen Robert, it's just putting something in the asset column that's going to produce me money.

That's so interesting, Tom. I like you more every time I hang out. Well, it's just like FOMO comes when you see other people kill it in the short term. And so I think there's a temptation to pursue speculation to try and get the short term results. For example, this week Tesla stock doubled and then doubled again.

Wow.

It went up four times in three weeks. It went up 400%. It went from $250 to $900 in about three weeks. Wow. It was nuts. Absolutely nuts. I sold at 600. So from now on, the day I Sold. I was thrilled. But from 600 to 900, I felt like the biggest loser in the world.

You need a hike in the green.

Yeah. Well, it happened in two days, right? The jump from six. I'm like, I've been sitting on Tesla stock for two years and yet I made, I could have doubled my money in the last two days. That was my mentality. Then of course, today, depending on when this, you're seeing this, it, it came way, way down.

Sure, right.

Because the speculation stopped and people started speculating that it was going to go down in value.

Right.

But at the same time, I buy a whole lot of Walgreens and Target and blue chip companies that just. My best investments are Costco and CVS and these dividend paying stocks that just keep paying dividends for a long period of time and you know what? They are not sexy. And other people who bought Apple and Netflix and Tesla creamed me.

Right.

The last three years, okay. But I've never, but I've never worried about those stocks going away.

Right.

I'm basically hearing you say that. You go, okay, that's cool. Enjoy your speculation. That's very nice. I'm gonna miss some upside, but I'm always going to make something, I'm always going to turn a profit while other people are fighting for the big wins.

See, the difference is I think cash flow is sexy.

So I think cash flow is sexy because it just sticks around. It lets you do what you want to do. It provides a base. Then you can go, then you can try to hit those home runs, just hit a bunch of singles. Then you can go, try to swing for home runs.

Well, would you give the same advice though to somebody who was working a normal job and didn't have.

Passive income yet? I've heard the argument made of, well, if I'm just working a normal job, then I've kind of got to swing for the fences with the money that I've got left over. I've kind of got to speculate in order to have the room for me to be able to create momentum. Would you agree or disagree with that?

Disagree. And I just, I'm not a fan of speculation. I mean, speculation. You know, the guys at the Chicago Board of trade, they risk 1% of their capital for a reason. Those guys are pros. So you're gonna risk 50%, 100% of your capital and speculation when you're not a pro, you're gonna get beat eventually. In fact, you're gonna get beat 99% of the time, probably. No, I would Still, I would still tell that person either. Either manage your time. You know, we've all got the same amount of time, and, you know, some people use it better than others. You can always find time for what's important. So find some time to learn about something or do something else or get a. Get a second job and get a little extra. And I'm still a big fan of passive income. It may not be the right way, but that's what I would suggest. Yeah, for Tom Burns, that's what I would do.

Luann, what do you want to ask Tom Burns?

Curious. Kind of like, where do you see yourself in the next five to 10 years? Do you do any forward planning or do you always just kind of.

Yeah, once you're at the top.

Yeah.

How do you, how do you plan forward?

You see, I don't think I'm at the top, so that's the easy thing. I'm still learning. I'm still learning. I'm, I'm trying. So I'm on this new. I'm on. I'm on a new adventure. You know, I've written a book and I've started a website that, you know, just went live yesterday. And I'm so clueless about how all that works.

Call your buddy Ryan.

Yeah, exactly. And so what I want to do, I just want to try to make a difference. You know, we talked about the doctors. I've got some credibility with that crowd. You know, if I, If I tried to talk to the world about personal finance, I'd just be another voice in an ocean of really, really big voices for personal finance. But I can talk to the doctors. So if I can get, you know, if I can. If I can catch one that's really burned out and really start thinking that life's not worth living, then, you know, maybe I've had my victories. So that's, that's my plan. So I like to speak. I'll talk to anybody. And so I don't know that I'm a good public speaker, but I've been doing that as I did yesterday.

So we'll see. I hope to be talking to enough folks and getting them to, you know, maybe see what I've, you know, come to the website, learn. I'm hoping to start talking to that list and making some kind of a difference. That's the plan.

If you were 30 years younger, but you carried all the knowledge that you have today, and it was still today's economy, would you still buy multifamily real estate?

I think, Ah, that's A great question. That is a great question. You could still find, you know, there's an old guy that used to say, no matter what the economy, good or bad, there's always the deal of the century around the corner. If you find it, there's always a good deal. I love apartments. We're still underserved. We're still 3.9 million units short between now and 2030. It just depends on where you put them. So we spend a lot of time researching where to put those things. I would still buy that. I just would be wary of the type I built or bought.

I would look at some self storage opportunities and maybe some RV parks and mobile homes are really hard to manage. But you know, I would partner with those people. I would, you know, I would hire out my weaknesses. But man, I'm telling you that, you know, even Kiyosaki and a bunch of other people say, you know, secret to wealth is the number, the number of doors you own. You know, so I. We're always going to need a place to live and we don't have enough units for us to live. We still have to. With, with the way the demographics are, we don't have enough units. So it's just finding the right place to put it. So yeah, I still would.

You still believe in this asset class?

Yes.

Even with lots of people jumping in, even with the market at the top, you still believe that's the route that you would create wealth with?

Yes, and we're doing, we're doing that but carefully. Like I said, we target four deals a year and we've done two last year. Yeah, but I believe that when things turn down, when things get a little difficult, that's what we're really going to pick up our home runs.

And that's because you're sitting in a strong cash position because you didn't spend all of your capital going out and getting the next speculative deal. You waited. And so when those prices come down and the speculators run, you're gonna be there with the cash flow to be able to buy.

We're gonna jump like jackals, man. We're gonna be on that stuff. And people ask me on any of the doc, the doctors, sometimes they'll get to this and it's not always doctors. They'll get to this trust point and say, well, gee, I want to invest now. I'm excited, I want to invest everything right now. And I'm like, you know, hold off. And even if they want to invest in our news, I'll tell them, take that dollar tear it in half, keep half of it over here for dry powder and then you know, get into something prudent and start learning because you learn when you invest in something. But I would tell people to sort of save a little dry powder. Keep. You can't sit and wait. If you sit and wait, you know you do miss things and you don't learn either. So you always need to sort of be. You always need to be in the market and you're in the market when you've got your money in the market.

Yeah.

And then by being, by having your money in the market it really keeps your brain in there. Then you can see when things turn and then you really know and then also you know when you see a good deal. So that's what I suggest to people to right now maybe have a little bit of dry powder.

Tom, inevitably there's going to be people who want to find out more about the investor relations that you have your company. So how would people look that up?

Golly, I don't know which website to give them if your doctors go to go to rich doctor.

But my. Our multifamily website is Presario Ventures dot com.

Easy to spell.

Yeah. P R E S A R I O Ventures. It's like impresario without the em. That's why the other one's called race doctrine. That one's easy.

But those two, you know those two and they've both got a lot of education on both of them. That's all we do. We just educate our investors and then they'll come, you know, they'll ask us when it's when they want to come and invest. Yeah.

Beautiful. Well thank you to all of you who watch live and by the way, if you saw this on the recording and you're not a member of the 1% you are missing hanging out with people like Tom who like literally we just brought an investment opportunity. I shouldn't say that. Literally we just brought a person that you should know and an asset class that you should consider and basically the knowledge of somebody who has built something amazing passed on to you. So if you're just watching on the recording and you're hanging out with other 1 percenters who are on this path who can open up doors for you and create opportunities for you, you can join us over@capitalism.com join Tom, thanks for hanging out with us. Thank you.

We still have another bottle too.

Good night everybody.

Sa.