Thrive: Evolving from Rejection | Entrepreneur Series

So I want to say first, welcome and hey everyone to our very brand new entrepreneur series called Thrive. Today we're going to be talking about evolving from rejection, which is very interesting topic I think for everyone. And joining us to talk about that is going to be Ben Hillman from Virgin Extra. Welcome, Ben. Thank you for being here. You're muted still.

Sorry about that. Hi Brett, thanks for having us.

So before we jump into this and we do have others, but just tell us a little bit, Ben, about you and what you do.

Yeah, with pleasure. I work for a creative agency, a brand consultancy as we define it. We've been an agency since 2006. Our company is headquartered in Madrid in Spain and I manage our operation and our portfolio with our clients in Latin America. In the US we're a small boutique agency but by our nature we work internationally. We worked in a couple of dozen countries thus far and hope to continue that growth. And yeah, we love what we do and we're very blessed to do it.

So for those who are joining us, the format here is Ben's going to kind of guide us through this discussion. And joining us to contribute to that discussion are two very well known partners here, Raeanne and Sarah George. Welcome both of you.

Thank you.

So Raeanne, if you'll tell us a little bit about you and what you do and then Sarah George, I'd love for you to do the same. So Raeanne, if you'll kick it off.

Sure, yeah. I'm sure some people have seen me in the community, but if you haven't, I've been part of wix being a web designer for about the last five years. I was also part of the Ambassador program. So yeah, my company is Shaka Designs and I solely do WIX design.

And Sarah George, and I'm Sarah George. I'm pretty sure most of you guys know who I am in the WIX community, at least if you don't already. I am one of the co founders of Wixcon, but I am also owner of Three4Designs, which is the company that you all have known me with. But I am now newly rebranded, reinvented as digidog Consulting and I have been a WIX designer and entrepreneur in this space since 2016.

Well, we're really glad to have both of you from our partner community and I want to thank you both. And Ben, I'd like to thank you also for being here. When we talk about rejection or evolving from rejection, that's a lot to talk about. And I think everybody that has a small business or has clients or potential clients or goes through a bid process. I think everyone can sort of identify with the idea of being rejected. Is that. And where do we kick this off, Ben? And I guess my question to you is, is that a bad thing? What do we learn from it? How do we grow? Where are we going, Ben? You tell us.

Yeah, well, fortunately I have all the answers, so we've come to the right place. No, I'm just kidding. I think what's really interesting about this topic, Brett, is that it gives us an opportunity to refrain something that could ultimately be of great value to our business. So really to answer the question directly, is that, is rejection a bad thing? I think rejection is a natural part of the, the business process and frankly the personal process as well, not just the professional process, which is, to my point earlier, being able to reframe, kind of shift that paradigm in terms of seeing no getting no's as strictly a bad thing. It doesn't have to be that way. Or rather we can look at it a different way. In short, I think getting a no can and should be a good thing. It can be a positive thing. And there's a number of ways in which we can make that, we can relay that into a positive thing for our business in our own development.

What's one thing? If I get a no, where's one place I could take that? Or if you get a no, let's kind of deep dive into this. What's one good example?

Yeah, so I mean, right off the bat, a lot of us in our industry are obviously well versed in getting, in getting feedback that might ultimately end in a no. And I think for starters, us getting any feedback in the first place is the first sign of positivity, which is to say that there are times when we don't get any answers at all. You know, a lot of us are used to elaborating these case specific proposals based on a brief, based on an opportunity. Someone wants to, you know, develop a new brand, brand asset like a website for instance. And, and we take the time to put it together based on the particularities of that opportunity. And then sometimes we don't even hear anything back. So right off the bat, I think one positive thing about getting though is the fact that we're getting something, we are receiving this feedback. There's an acknowledgement, there's an identification of us as professional partners or potential partners. And frankly, we're big, big proponents of the criticality and the, the value of managing expectations. And I think that getting a no is A way for the other side, if you will, for the prospect in this case, to manage those expectations. And those expectations include things like respect, mutual respect, and professionalism. Whereas again, we're in a situation where you might not receive any feedback at all. It might seem like your hard work and your invaluable time that goes into developing those proposals might not necessarily be recognized in such a way. So right off the bat, I think getting a no shows mutual respect. And if nothing else, it lays the groundwork for a relationship that might not materialize in that instance with that project or opportunity, but could very well come back and become something later on.

So, Sir George, Ray, Ann, would you like to add to that? Is there anything you want to jump in on?

Well, I totally agree. Actually, something that's funny that I've experienced specifically is I send out this proposal that I put all this work into this client discovery moment. I send a proposal out and I get no response. And it's really frustrating because if any of you guys are like me, I put a lot of energy into my client discovery and initial meetings. I take the time to get to know this person, not just this project. And so it's a. It's a little bit of a like, oh my gosh, they don't like me moment. And I am that sensitive, even though I don't always show it. So one of the things that I learned through different sales training opportunities I had is rather than spending time on that is to just put them into a drip campaign. So I dropped them into a campaign that says they didn't respond, I didn't hear anything. And it's kind of a nurture moment. They get an email from me every three to six months. I forget what it's set for right now. Actually, I've had two clients that were significant dollar amounts, which is why it matters, that I didn't hear anything from. And two or three years later I got an email. Hey, do you remember that project? And so then what was really fun about it is that I had the opportunity to really make the decision of who's going to say no.

That's really valuable.

Yeah, it was.

So, so, so, Ben, let's. Let's continue. Raeann, did you want to jump in or.

Sure. I mean, I did have one thing. It's similar actually to your experience there, George, because when you get a no, this is how I really formulated my process with my clients and the proposal process and everything. Because when I was starting out, there was a point where all of a sudden I hit like A wall of just no's, like, no, no, no, no no's. And so I was like, okay, what's wrong? So that's where I kind of formulated my own process too. And I realized, number one, I was spending way too much time on writing the proposals. Too much time to get that many no's. And then I also kind of thought about what's the conversation that I was having, like, where, at what point does it seem to like, where am I losing them? You know, like, where does the energy change? And ever since then, when I've made those changes, where I have this like template proposal, but I still put in like, you know, the time and the human into it. It's not just this drafted thing that says the same thing to every single person, but it's really changed everything for me. And I've gotten a lot more yeses, still no's, but that's okay.

So when we do these, when we, when we spend that time. Ben, is there a way to sort of, in the beginning, how can we, can we structure that to sort of maintain a healthy dynamic with, with the project? Can you, can you lead us down that train of thought?

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, both Ryan and Sarah George just had wonderful examples that I think go a long way in answering even this question. We're taking this, this, this information that, this feedback and we're taking action with it. You know, it's helping to inform and educate our methodologies. We're talking about these, you know, these processes which we all have. And it's really important that those be, I guess, you know, the word formal, you know, comes to mind. But there is a process that we follow so that it, so that then we have ways to measure the process and kind of, you know, create these benchmarks along the way. I think again, those are really good examples on a number of levels. But for starters, you know, I think it proves the point that receiving a no or having, you know, a rejected proposal is not the end of the road. And I think that's what's critical. And sometimes it's two or three years, sometimes it's less, sometimes it's more. But I think, and this is, you mentioned a healthy dynamic from our. And it's so helpful to hear about each of our unique experiences. We're very much a relationship driven agency. And I think business is personal. I think business has to do with people. And so we, you know, we invest a lot of time and effort in ensuring that our client relationship strategy, if you will, which really just means how we communicate and how we are able to again establish expectations and work to surpass those expectations becomes sort of so essential. And I think again, this is part of that relationship driven strategy, meaning when you get a no, it's not the end of the relationship, it's just one milestone in that relationship, arguably not an ideal one. And so again, it's these steps that happen. And I think having this forward looking, longer term view for relationships is something that could be very helpful to a lot of us. You know, it's not, you know, we don't look at our business as a transaction with a transactional model. Meaning like it's not about, you know, doing one rebrand, developing a visual identity or helping a company, you know, develop how the brand articulates with a verbal identity or a one off campaign for the holidays or whatever. These are all manifestations or these are all parts of this process in this relationship. And I think again, when we get a no, that is a sign of respect frankly from our prospect and I think one that we should also kind of emulate and continue to carry on so that we can maintain this healthy dynamic even when the business doesn't materialize at that point. I think it's just a matter of keeping maybe a longer term view of the relationship.

So a question to that. You know, Sarah George mentioned earlier that sometimes she doesn't mean to, but sometimes she can't help but take it personal. So Ben, when you say you're in the business of making it personal and you're in the business of having real personal relationships with your clients that you're, that you're going for, how do you, how do you push that out and how do they know that within a short amount of time that they are exposed to you and your agency and what you're goals are and how you approach things, how do you make that so clear? So when you do feel like you get that no, maybe, you know, it wasn't a good fit, or is there a process where you say maybe I didn't approach this the right way or I wasn't clear in how I do business. That's kind of a multi, multifaceted question, but I'm throwing it to you nonetheless.

Yeah, yeah, of course. And I'd love to hear what Sarah George and Ray have to say about this too because evidently again, in our space, in our industry, in the creative world in general, I mean, it's difficult to create these kind of dogmas perhaps in the financial industry where we have so much regulation and things are arguably More black and white. That's not quite the same in the world that we live in. And I think all this idiosyncratic kind of behavior, and. And so that really kind of. It almost shines a light and puts a premium on our personalities and the egos, which I say that in the most positive way possible. And so that's a reality. And I think we would be doing ourselves a disservice if we say that there's nothing personal about this, especially when this conversation itself is kind of predicated about the effects of getting a no. And the effects of us as just sensible human beings would dictate that getting a no is difficult. And sometimes, maybe especially after the amount of time that's invested, maybe more difficult than we'd like. So I think it's important for us the passion, I think attitude has so much to do with it. And obviously, this is maybe a bit of a parallel conversation, but we try to have a very congenial, positive attitude as far as our emotion and our person and our persons are concerned in our projects. And I think that. And I think that helps a lot. We try to keep, you know, the more. The more negative aspects, if you will, of emotion, which are inevitable too, especially working, you know, in an artistic, creative world. But I think, you know, this is. This is a bit of a broad, abstract answer, but I think trying to preserve a positive attitude. I know it sounds a bit cliche saying that, but having a positive attitude as you filter the feedback that you receive can be very helpful. And again, when I say positive attitude, I mean the nos don't have to be a negative thing. With these nos, you're able to, like we said a moment ago, you're able to take action. And so one quick example might be, you know, asking questions and conducting almost like a root cause analysis from why you're getting a no without. Again, without having. Without being, you know, arriving to that position or approaching that in a negative way, basically asking questions that are going to let you compile information that can help you for the next time you have a similar opportunity.

So if I can share an experience. I had, actually one of my very first clients way back in 2016, was an educator who wanted a logo and a website. And we did this client discovery, and I was just refinding myself in the artistic space that I used to live in. And so, like, just kind of reclaiming that piece of me kind of a thing after being a mom. Y' all know how that goes. And I did this discovery with her, and she told Me what she wanted. She wanted confidence. She wanted cool, calm water, like, but, you know, like ripples in the water, like, education spread. It's like they have a similar similarity. There. There's analogy we can use Here we have this conversation. I did a Dropbox with her. Put all your things you like in here. I did all these color analysis with her, and I gave her. And I kid y' all not, please don't laugh at me, 20 iterations of a logo. Okay? I gave her these 20 iterations. Like, I worked my behind off to above and beyond appease this woman. And when we sat down to review her logo, she goes, this is nothing like what I told you. I lost it. Like, my soul bled at that moment, you know? And then, you know, we had some other conversations and we dismissed each other. The truth is, I was brokenhearted. I'm telling y' all, my soul bled. But walking away from that, what I realized was this. Set limits. One, 20 is too much. Two, it's not my project, it's hers. Why am I crying over this? Like, she's commissioned me to do to create her project, not mine. So to be that invested was a step too far for me. So that no became so painful when it shouldn't have been. It doesn't mean that I don't need to understand her kind of take the effort to walk a mile in her shoes perspective, but it's not mine. And then on top of that, at the end of it, she was an educator, so she actually sent me an evaluation of my performance. I still have it. Yes, it was painful to read. Oh, my gosh. But what was really hilarious is afterwards, when I got back to my myself, and about a week or so later, when I was finally ready to read the evaluation she wrote and see the logo that she went with from a different designer. The logo was red. That was the biggest flag for me. Do you know what it meant? She didn't know what she wanted, so why was I beating myself up? It was no big deal. Like, it's personal. Yes. And she gave me several nos, multiple nos, but they were all good no's because she didn't know what she wanted first. And for me to take it personal was at that time a sign of my immaturity in the business space that I was entering into and an opportunity for me to grow or, you know, run. It took me a minute. I ran at first, and then I got there. We grew. So.

So that's an awesome story. And Ben to tie it in, sort of, I guess, for kind of what you were talking about with, with the root cause analysis. And it really, in this case, it had nothing to do with Sarah George. It really had to do with where the client was. Right?

Yeah.

And I really like what you said earlier too, about keeping it polite and keeping the energy positive. You know, and I'm sure there's a lot of people who, in the early stages, like Sarah George is talking about when they get that. No, it's like cat claws out.

Why?

You know, this is. I totally understand that. And I guess it just takes time and finesse and sort of, I guess a lot of root cause analysis to understand it may not be about you. Raeanne, I see you nodding. What would you like to. Come on, tell us.

I feel the same way. Just based off of what both of you have said, I had to grow from that same thing. And I think, especially in a creative space, I think we all have to grow from. No, because we do take it more personally as creative people. And it's something that I've grown out of too. Thankfully, I was finally able to separate the emotion from the project. And I have two examples to say to this. The first one is when I'm doing my initial review with my client, I've delivered the website, we're looking at it together. And even from the very beginning of the project, like our first call, before I even design anything, I tell them, hey, as we're going through this, I want to make sure we can openly talk to one another. You're never going to offend me. If there's something you don't like, I need to know about it. And it has totally changed, like, the whole client relationship for me because from the get go, everybody feels comfortable to say what they want to say. And yeah, so that's opened it up huge because now nobody takes it personally. And then as far as, like keeping things positive, when I do get a no, I do appreciate it. I prefer getting a no versus just crickets because that's still another opportunity for me to continue showing up how I am and just I respond to them. I used to get upset and I would just like, you know, maybe like angry, delete their email. And then I was like, okay, that's not okay. I need to, like, respond to them. They said no, that's respectful. And I grew from that. And so now when somebody tells me no, I thank them for their time. I, you know, wish them luck on whoever it is they're working with. And I let them know, like, hey, I'm here. Just if you need Me, I never want to say, like, if it doesn't work out, but I just want them to know, like, hey, I'm here if you, if you do need me. So it's all opportunities.

I agree.

And like Sarah George was saying, do you have some people that you've had that response to? And then out of the wild blue, you'll get a response back maybe a year, six months later, saying, hey, you know, actually I said no, but do you remember that project? Has that happened to you as well?

It happens all the time, right?

It's such a thing. Yeah. Some people say no just to cost. Like it doesn't matter. Your presentation was amazing. They say no to cost. They blame it on a component of the presentation. They go with the chief designer. They wish they had gone with you. And then they call you back crawling, begging for you to give them your time again. Yeah, that's where you also have another opportunity to be positive and be polite and careful and caring with it with them.

It's true. Because a no isn't always a no. Like, it could be a no right now. Like, I've had people that have come to me and they're like, listen, I just don't have the budget, so. But I'm going to get it. And they come back to me in a couple months and they're like, let's start this.

So, yeah, that's really interesting, I think. I love to hear these stories because again, we all have the same. Different but similar experiences, I think, in our business. And I think it got me thinking about. We're talking about this root cause analysis, which really is just kind of maybe a fancier way to encapsulate a simple concept which is just making sure that the flow of communication carries on and that there's still, you know, a very, again, you know, respectful and professional correspondence after the fact, after. No, in this case. And so many times it's, you know, the prospect of reclining. Of course, I think, you know, there's their price sensitivity. You know, any kind of, you know, budgetary related consideration has a lot to do with it. A lot of times they don't necessarily understand or, or they can't quite equate. Or if they do have this vision of the final product, they don't understand why it costs that much or why it would. But it's. And so all those things always kind of come back to us, the service provider, meaning, like, okay, this is something that I need to explain better. This is something that I should have said this, but one of the things that it got me thinking about, especially the example with the educator from Sarah George. It's fundamental, I think that we also take the time, particularly like in this briefing, scoping process and the discovery process, how you want to call it, that we are also mindful and aware of who is on the, of who we're talking to and kind of what makes that person, that idea, that brand, it could be a huge company and we still have to get our own appreciation for that matter, I think understanding who we're talking to. And the reason I say this is because frankly, sometimes, obviously we're all in presumably profit seeking companies here. And so obviously we always have that drive of wanting to get new projects and generate revenue and grow our business. But sometimes, you know, sometimes no no's can be, can be a good thing in the sense that maybe that wouldn't have been a good fit in the first place because that person didn't really know what they want. And by the way, the fact, the truth is that many, many, many times the client doesn't know what they want and because necessarily they haven't been asking the right questions because they've been so laser focused on the hows and the what's of their business, which makes all the sense in the world. But it's the job of individuals like us, of groups like ours to go in there and ask why and then really, you know, take a deeper dive. And that's really, you know, in our experience, in our case, that's what probably we love to do the most. We love to take the time to understand why people are doing what they're doing and verbalize that in a way that is human, that's simple, that is beautiful aesthetically. Obviously.

Ben to something you said. Ben the educator. I know her, still see her and cross paths with her in professional spaces. I'm so glad that she said no. We are absolutely different styles. I'm very laid back, I'm very easygoing, my communication is a little slower. If there was one complaint every last one of my clients could give to me, it would be that they heard from me a day after I said I was going to get back to them. But I can claim that, you know, I can claim that I get my job done still, but. And she's one of those people that's like, you know, if you're 10 minutes early, you're still late, you know. And so it was a good no, but it took me time to receive and understand and really turn that into something that was valuable for me in the bigger picture. And not just, oh my gosh, she said no, my feelings are hurt. Oh my gosh, she said no, I missed out on money I could have earned. You know, all those other initial way feelings that we feel when somebody gives us a no as a business, as an individual.

Absolutely. That's a great example. That's proof in the pudding. And I'll give one quick example here of a client. So we worked with a big architecture in Spain and it was this wonderful project and they built up these new facilities that housed these amazing pieces of furniture and artwork. And it was this concept for creatives to get together, but also the pieces there were for sale. It was a very interesting concept. This project was maybe five or six years ago and we had a lot to do with, you know, with creating the brand environmental graphics for the place, you know, digital assets and all this stuff. And it was a very difficult process because the owners were highly demanding, which we like demanding. We like attention to detail and as long as, you know, we can kind of stay on the same page, you know, in terms of our, you know, our back and forth. But so we did. And then the project got progressively more difficult because of again like this. And I'm sure we're all familiar with this, but the inevitability that the scope of a project will change once the project starts is uncanny. I mean, almost always, you know, we're going to do, you know, a new brand identity or a new brand implementation, a new website. And by the time we get, you know, rocking and rolling, it's like, oh, actually I want the website to have this much more functionality. And also what about a social media program? And I have these, this fleet of cars, I want you to wrap all these cars and I have a conference room, I want you to vinyl and you. And it's like, okay, well so I mean that happens a lot. And so you learn a lot about these clients as you work with them too. And again, to everyone's point, it's like this is like this education process. And my example is, you know, recently this client, you know, circled back with us and you know, they're starting and it's like a big, you know, brand activation. And they wanted us to collaborate and we were obviously delighted to do that. And so we send the proposal and the proposal. Okay, this makes sense. And so what the client did, he took the proposal, he printed the proposal out, and then he hand wrote about 10 other items and then signed the proposal and then sent it back to us. And so at that point we Said, well, look, this is a proposal for, let's say, for simplicity's sake, 100. And it had a to Z in the scope, and now you want to include an additional A to z, but the 100 no longer applies, so we can't sign this. And he's like, no, but you guys can do this. I mean, it's not. And again, this idea that created, you know, that. And I'm sure we've all experienced this like that our time is not, you know, because we're not accountants, maybe, and because, you know, we can't, or lawyers and. But we've, you know, taken a lot of time to, you know, you know, become specialists and kind of master our trade, if you will. And that requires, obviously, all sorts of investments. And so this is an example of, you know, we, again, you know, in the most diplomatic and in appropriate way possible, we basically said, thanks, but no thanks. This, it would not be, you know, we're setting ourselves up for failure. This is going to be tense. There's going to be friction throughout this process. We're not going to be happy because we're going to be investing so much time that we're not being compensated for. And you're not going to be happy because we're going to be giving you work. We're not making this food with love, basically. And you want us to cook with love because that's what we do. And by the way, just very quickly, Rand mentioned this and Sarah George, it's emotion, namely, preferably, hopefully always the positive one. But this passion that artists, that creatives put in their work is an imperative part of the toolkit. We have to have that we're not robots. Design. I mean, of course, there's so many technical bits about how do we define the chromatic scale of a brand? When we talk about, when we create custom typography, for instance, these things can be extremely technical and they should be brand guidelines, all these things. But how do we get to that point? It's an artistic process. It's not necessarily quite as tangible. It's difficult to measure, and it can take a long, long, long time, which is why things cost sometimes, among other things.

Is that difficult to convey when you're, when you're having these discovery conversations? Is that hard to convey to the person across the table? That's a question. Another question is, what we're talking about here is I think it's okay sometimes to say no if you're mismatched. How do you know if you're mismatched? And I Want to ask another question? Is there a silver bullet question you can ask a potential. So you get your red flag, say, hey, hey, this educator doesn't know what she wants, therefore I'm exiting. You know, how do you hone on that? Is that something that you just get from time and craftsmanship, or are there a tip and trick you could tell someone? Tell someone right now that's watching? That's a lot of questions, by the way. I just do a lot.

I don't think. I don't think there's a silver bullet question. This is my opinion. I don't think there's a silver bullet question, but I do think there are a few techniques and questions that can help you get there better. You've got to learn how to read the client you're working with. You've got to look for all the things they're not saying or all the things their body language or their failure to communicate or, you know, the type of communication they have. You've got to look for those little things as this fly comes to say hello to me. But one thing, one question that I know that has benefited me greatly to ask all of my clients is, what do you want? Like, I know that sounds ridiculously simple, but like giving them something Rianne mentioned earlier, one, giving them the permission, the confidence in the space to say, I don't like this is one thing that is key for me. And the other one is just what do you want? And leaving them with space and time to answer that question. I have a habit of trying to anticipate and, like, I'm a pleaser. I want to make everybody happy. And so I just go above and beyond when I'm in that space. And so instead of doing that, I have to really pace myself. What do you want? Zip it. Sit still now. Sarah George. So that's one thing that I have learned personally that has been really key for that silver bullet question. Yeah.

And a lot of it also comes from my intake process, my discovery call. My discovery calls are about 30 minutes long. And over time, I've crafted like, all of these areas that I want to touch on about their projects that really help me know if we're going to be a good fit, what their expectations are, you know, what their timeline is. So for me personally, the one thing that I've heard a few times, and I'm sure a lot of other people in the community have heard this, but when a client or potential client says, I'll know it when I see it, that's just like the Worst one.

Is that a red flag?

Is that red flag? Please get back to me when you know what you want until then.

And that's why I say we're not a fit.

Yeah.

Because at the beginning too, I do something a little similar to what you do. So I, instead of asking them, like, what they want, what I do is I have them provide me tangible examples, ideas, like, I like this, I don't like that. And if they can't provide those to me, then I can't work with them because I'm gonna design something that they're

probably not gonna like.

They don't know what they want.

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree.

Absolutely. That's. I think that the, the I'll know when I see it or the lack of, you know, being able to produce references are probably made majorly, are probably, you know, major red flags in terms of clearly there's an absence of criteria that's going to make my job very, very difficult. And this.

Tara agrees.

Pardon?

She agrees too. Tara agrees too. So let me ask you this, Ben. So let's say you get into this space where you may get one of those I'll know it when I see it moments. Does that mean at that point that this means you can say no to them or is this salvageable? Can you. Can some of these clients that have unrealistic expectations be reeled in? Maybe. If not, is it okay to say no to them?

Yeah. So obviously the scapegoat answer is it depends on the client and basically their flexibility, how fluid they are and how open they are to adapting to change or open to things. If it's like a very rigid client, which typically, like the bigger organizations leadership has like very strict kind of preconceived notions of, like, how things should be, then maybe it's going to be kind of difficult. But I think one of these questions had something to do with this. But I think experience and how many conversations you've had, how many focus groups you've been a part of for scoping calls or discovery meetings that you've had, you know, those. And this is why, and this is another reason why no's are so helpful, because these, these all make up your experience which then enable you to navigate these conversations more effectively. And that's, you know, that's, that's really critical, you know, in our, you know, I've been doing for this for some time and I feel very comfortable basically, you know, getting in front of, you know, from a startup to Coca Cola and everything in between and, and having discussions that could give me information that allow me to direct the conversation in a way that I know will take us to a place that will be the most valuable to them. And I think that's the kicker. If you can't take the conversation anywhere to where you think it aligns with your value proposition, then that's gonna be very difficult.

Actually, something I learned from someone in our. From. In our group, Marissa Freeman, actually taught me this one. People say, you know, I don't know what I want, whatever it is. And I used to just kind of pass them off by either giving them kind of a. We all. We all do this, and most of us do this, charging them a higher fee so that I'm pricing myself out. So I know they won't accept the proposal I send them. But something Marissa has done that she's taught me to do is to create a sense of urgency for them. Hey, listen, it doesn't sound like we're a good fit this time. I've got other things going on, you know, if you decide to get back to me, hopefully I'll have time for you then. If not, you know, I wish you the best. And answering in that way lets them know that my time is too valuable to waste for you to not take this project seriously. And so what I found by doing that is it puts the onus on them to do their work, because to know what they want is their job. Like. Like, don't come to me and say, build something amazing. Come to me and say, build an amazing website that does these five things with these colors and this or this feel. So it puts the job back on them for them to take it serious. And it also guarantees me that the rate I give them, they're going to respect. Ever since I changed my perspective in response in that way, like, I have minimized arguments over why they should pay the rate that I've given them.

Yeah, that's a great example of, again, managing expectations and making sure that you're understanding how you work and how it's. How you're going to create the best conditions for a successful partnership.

And those situations can potentially be salvageable. Like you were asking Brett, it depends again, kind of, Ben, what you were saying, like, as you're talking with that prospect, you kind of feel them out and you know, like, hey, can we talk about why it's important, you know, that I need examples or these are the things I need to serve you well, or are they not going to receive that? Are they just going to think like, no, you do it, you know. I know you'll make something great, and I know it's going to be a disaster, but I have actually had conversations with clients like that where they didn't know what they want. And I said, okay, listen, here's where I've got to be, like, super transparent.