Who, What, Wix Podcast Episode 4: Make ‘Em Love You

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this is who what Wix.

Hey, all. Welcome to another episode of who what Wix. This is Yael and Justin.

What's up, dudes?

And we're coming to you live from a cafe in hustling, bustling Tel Aviv. We have the good fortune of interviewing the owner of Cafe Zoho, Ms. Zoli Ormit Durbin, who's going to tell us a bit about how to open a business in a crowded market and even more importantly, how to stand out with killer customer service.

So you can probably hear people talking and eating around us. I mean, we're recording in the middle of this cafe. But the vibe, the vibe is really, really calm. I mean, everybody knows restaurants can be really high pressure business environments. We've all got that picture in our heads of the stressed out chef yelling orders. But there's one thing that you're never gonna hear at Cafe Zoho, and that is arguments. You're never gonna hear it. Everybody here is pretty, pretty calm.

Yeah. One of the reasons which we're gonna learn about in just a moment is the importance of great customer service, especially when you're in a crowded market. It's little things like how you treat your customers and how to bring them back to your business that's gonna set

you apart for sure. I mean, dealing with customers, obviously it's part of any business. And Cafe Zoho has built a community out of that relationship. So I'm ready to drink another coffee.

Absolutely.

So let's head to that interview. We'll see you guys on the other side. We're in the studio today with Zoli Ormut Durbin. We have her during one of the rare moments that she is not working. It's early in the morning and I think straight from here, you're going to go to your cafe, Correct?

Yep.

So I'd love for you to introduce yourself.

Hi, my name's Zoli. I'm originally from Hong Kong. My parents are Canadian. I then lived in Australia and came to Israel and I run Cafe Zoho.

Boom. Short and sweet. Zoely, what is the perfect cup of coffee?

My perfect cup of coffee is a preheated ceramic beautiful cup with a beautiful, silky double espresso inside that is not burnt.

Not burnt.

And is locally roasted. Yeah. No milk. Yeah. But for a lot of customers, I would say a cappuccino with A nice design on it and good quality foam is probably their perfect cup of coffee for me with a double espresso. Surprisingly, that also can be beautiful because you have the quality of the crema. You have something that's called tiger skin, which is when the espresso has been poured at the right speed and it comes out nice and strong and it has liter, literally the look of a tiger skin on its surface.

So let's say, you know, for our listeners, if they were here in Tel Aviv with us and they walked into Cafe Zoho, what are you gonna see? What are you gonna hear? What are you gonna smell?

You're gonna smell in the morning the fresh bagels and the cookies. Probably bagels first, then cookies. You're gonna smell coffee. You're probably gonna smell chai, because we brew our own chai. And you're gonna hear nice music and you're gonna hear English I thing in Zoho.

Okay, interesting. Obviously, we're here in the Middle East. You're not going to hear that everywhere.

Yeah, it's super rare. There's a lot to attract people to this cafe. What would you say are the main things on the menu and the main elements of the ambiance that get people in the door?

So menu wise, definitely, we were pretty slow the first few years. And the second we started doing beer bread, people started to notice that was actually a chef that worked for us that started doing that. He's from the States. And once we sort of converted that into a breakfast, we saw that we started getting busy. Then we saw, okay, let's maybe do some bagels, because that's also missing. And then people started coming for that. So we do an egg and cheese bagel, for example, and that is by far our best seller. I mean, we can sell 600 of those a month and then only 80 of something else like that is by far what's one of the things bringing people in, Ambiance wise, I think people feel at home.

So I want to back up. I want to start from the beginning. Where do you think your story to Zoho? Where does it start?

So my parents are Canadian and they moved to Hong Kong 35 years ago because my dad took over my mom's father's business. He was a Holocaust survivor and he moved to Canada and then was one of the first entrepreneurs in Asia to start working there because the labor was too expensive in Canada. And he opened factories and the business is now huge. But anyway, that's what brought my dad to Hong Kong. They were meant to stay two years. They ended up staying 35, in which time had three children and I'm the oldest. When I was 16, SARS broke out in Hong Kong. It's a pretty serious disease, I think it was not even advertised well enough in newspapers around the world, how serious it was. And my father had to get us out of Hong Kong very quickly. Schools were evacuated, everything was suspended. And we had been to Australia several times on holiday simply because it's closer than Canada, even though all the extended family is there and it's, you know, it's a really nice place, we'd spent time there. So he evacuated us to Australia and we ended up living on a farm for six months, which was very strange for Hong Kong kids growing up in a big city to suddenly be surrounded by greenery.

Did he. Did he seek that out? Did he say, let's, let's not only get out of Hong Kong, but let's go completely the opposite route?

Well, basically we had meant to go on a family holiday years before to Mongolia, and cholera broke out there, which also never happened.

Bummer.

And as, as a result, the family holiday was redirected to Australia. So we actually spent some time in Australia and my father fell in love with the country. So when SARS broke out, it made the most sense to go there. So when it came time to choose where to go for university, I really didn't want to go to Canada. And in order to make money to pay for apartment, for my cat, for whatever I had while I was living there, I started working as a waitress. Really, really spoke to me. I love people. It just felt very easy, all the multitasking and everything. Started bartending, did some kitchen work, and even though I was studying GR design while I was there, it just was really obvious to me that I was not going to spend my life looking at a screen and being a graphic designer. I can't. I have to do something physical. So I just worked in a lot of places between fine dining and cafes and pizza places and bars. So I was working for a while in Australia and I loved it. The coffee culture in Melbourne to this day is far ahead of the rest of the world, in my opinion. They have. I mean, you can't even find bad coffee in Melbourne and also the environment and everything. But the problem with Australia is it's very far away from the rest of the world. I had been to Israel many times on holiday and I really liked it. So I said, that's it, I'm gonna go. So I went with no plan whatsoever. There was no plan to open a coffee shop at all. I had all this experience. I assumed, you know, how old was I back then? I must have been 21. So I was like, oh, well, I'm young. I'm just gonna work in bars and have a good time and see what happens. Yeah, exactly. And then when I moved here, I thought there would be the same coffee culture as I had in Melbourne, and it just wasn't here. So after working for a couple of people, I said, I'm just gonna do it myself. I'm gonna be my own boss. I'm gonna see if it works, and I'm gonna treat my staff with respect and my customers and see what happens. And this is what happens.

Clearly, you know a ton about customer service, but did you know a lot about starting a business? I mean, how did you jump into that part of it?

Think it's just when you see something that you want, you just do everything you can to make it happen. And either it works or it doesn't. And I didn't know if Tel Aviv was ready for it. I had no idea that the Anglo community here was so big before I moved here, and I certainly didn't know anybody. So I think for me, it was just like, I'm going to create a community. It's not going to be just about the food and drink. It's going to be also about this place people can go to to speak English and meet each other. And it's still happening to this day. And I always say that it's a miracle that Zoho is still open, because it was very hard, but I just pushed through blood, sweat, and tears, literally.

And coffee.

And coffee.

Lots of coffee.

Yeah.

So, I mean, before, in. In your days when you had just moved here, you were coming from, you know, one of the. The coffee shop capitals of the world. What about the Tel Aviv scene here? You know, you. You were surveying all the coffee shops. You were going around, you were having your cappuccino.

What.

What about it left you thinking, there's something missing here?

I think that what's missing here a lot is this triangle of good food, good coffee, good service. So if I would go to a place that had decent coffee and there was no place that had great coffee eight years ago, I'm confident of that. If the place had decent coffee, then they had shitty service. Excuse my language. If they had good service, then they had bad coffee. And they might have okay food, but it was the same stuff that was being served in any other. And to this day, you go anywhere and it's like the same thing everywhere. Quiche, toast, whatever. It's like, like I didn't understand why every place had the same thing. And in Melbourne, coffee shops were defined by what was making them different to everybody else. But they all had the same standard of coffee and service. So I just felt like I would also, let's say, go to a place every single day and they still wouldn't remember my name or my coffee. And I'm not like some self entitled person. I don't need people to remember who I am. But that's part of how you create a community. You know, when I train my staff in the front, they learn about my customers, they learn about their kids, they learn about their lives. Like it's important, you know, you're creating a place that people go to that they want to come back. They're not just a number, you know, for sure.

It feels really good when someone knows your name, especially for an expat. It's absolutely a rite of passage to become a regular anywhere and that's what your customers are. How important was it to build community when you launched this business?

I mean, it's like the center of everything we do. There are literally people who have been coming to us since the day we opened. They've seen us grow, We've seen them grow, we've seen them meet, have kids, have more kids. Like we've, we are like a complete part of their lives. It's central to everything. And that's probably why I suppose I'm still so involved in my business. Because there isn't anyone else like me in my business that knows my customers as well as I do. Obviously I train people and I try to keep that going. And we do. Like, people come sometimes for certain of my staff members, they want to see them so much, you know, it's central to everything really important.

Was good service something that you thought was specifically lacking, that you really wanted to bring to your business?

I rarely go to a restaurant and have very good service.

How would you define good service?

Personable, first of all, like, to me part of good service is, you know, promoting that person to come back. So making them feel like you're gonna remember them and that you're having, you know, they're not just someone who paying and leaving. So that's what I mean is central to us. The other thing is, you know, to be fair and to have mutual respect and if something is going to cost a little extra to say beforehand so they don't have a surprise on their bill and, you know, to speak their language. I don't know. It's like a lot of things. Oftentimes, I'm sure, as you know, it will feel like you're like, the waitress is doing you a favor by coming to your table and serving you. And that is. That does not that that has happened in my coffee shop, and anyone who has displayed that behavior has been fired very swift because it's just not acceptable.

So, you know, you said blood, sweat, tears, coffee.

Yeah.

All the marks of a good. Of a good restaurant. But what was your first year like?

Listen, the first year, nobody knew where we were. It wasn't like, in people's faces. You had to go up three steps. You had to commit to enter. So I think for a lot of people, that wasn't. And no one could see inside because the way the entrance was. And then a week before I opened, I met Zoe, my chef that worked with us until January of this year. She was with me for six years, so I wasn't alone. I mean, we would literally go out onto the street with little flyers and be like, hey, you want to come in and try our breakfast? You know, it's like we're trying to stick to our guns, but no one got it because the Anglos didn't know about us, and Israelis didn't want to come in because we had no Israeli breakfast and we had no croissants. So it was really a tough year because we were like, we don't want to sell out and do something different. We want to push the onion jam. We want to push the homemade bread and the vegan cookies. We want to push these things, but people don't get it yet. So the first year was tough. I would say it took a year and a half until we started to actually start having a sort of regular flow of customers.

What were your first marketing efforts that got that flow of customers in the door?

So we really didn't do much of anything. It was just word of mouth. And every single customer that walked in was made to feel like a million bucks, which I hope we still do today. It's just. It's a little busier, so it's hard to give that intimate experience. But every single customer, I feel, came back. You know, we tried to make people feel that we were really, like, doing our best at that time with what we had. Sure.

I think that goes along with. With good service, because you're talking about customers that were sort of taking a chance on you. You were brand new cafe in a city Full of cafes.

Yeah.

How much do you think you put yourself out there? I mean, beyond just, like, having good service to customers? You're talking about people taking a chance on you.

Yeah, I would do anything for somebody. Like, yeah, it wasn't on the menu. I'll do it like, anything. It wasn't even out of desperation. It was out of, like, being in their place and thinking, like, what I would want from that experience. So we would change the menu on a weekly basis based on just what we experienced that week. Like, we just. We were crazy, really. But there was three of us, so I wasn't alone.

You know, you guys are the expat cafe. That. That's, like the.

That's nice to hear.

I mean, as an expat in this country, everybody knows Zoho.

That's nice.

So what do you think about your cafe? Made it. Helped it become this hub for a very specific audience. I mean, you know, you said we did no marketing, but at the same time, you guys have marketed to a very specific group of people.

It's very much the word of mouth. I think if one Anglo comes to Zoho, they come back with eight of their friends. And I really see that we even have tourist regulars that come to us every year that they're in town, and we remember them. I think part of it is that over the years, our special boards were only really in English. So when you walk in, what you see first, when you look at the wall is English. And of course, the waitresses can speak Hebrew. And we can explain things to Israelis or anyone who can't speak English in general. But when you walk in, that's what you see first. You see English. Our menu has always had, you know, English and Hebrew. And what we were offering was. Was not very local in the sense that we never did like hummus or falafel or Israeli breakfast. As I spoke about before, we always stuck to our guns and did something that would remind people of. For me, you know, what I would eat in Melbourne, let's say, I think bagels started bringing people in the door. In our old location, we only made 10 bagels a day. We're now making up to 120. So there's a difference there. But those people who came every day for the 10 bagels, those 10 people that were obsessed with our bagels, would bring back their friends, and we'd always be out of the bagels, which is why when we moved to the new location, things like bagels, and of course, our chocolate chip cookies were like, what we were banking on to have people come to our bigger place, and it totally worked. And people come in and they buy, like, 12 bagels on their way out, and, you know, they'll bring cookies to their friends and whatever. So we banked on these kind of, like. I suppose they're quite American things. I'm not even American, but my chef was American, so. And I gave her creative control and I. And we worked together, and I really loved everything she did, so we just went with it. And people liked it. They missed it, I guess, from where they came from. Yeah.

Yeah. There's an element of nostalgia, I think, for a lot of expats in your menu, that's really alluring. It sounds like when you started, you had these three pillars, I'll say, of what you knew that you wanted, that were important elements of your business. Since running it all these years, do you feel like there are any new pillars for your cafe?

I think to really not defend ourselves is not the word, but to really stick to our guns about what we do, because people will often come in still new people, and not understand what we do and not understand why we don't have this or that or, you know, how can we not conform to what everyone else is doing? And why are you charging this price for something? And I think this new pillar that I've had to kind of, like, come across and teach myself and teach my staff to kind of, like, go past is to just be proud of what we do, because this is what we do, and we do it for a reason, and we charge these prices for a reason, and we make this food this way for a reason, and just to be proud of it.

I mean, you guys have really managed to find your audience and, like, go deep with them. But if I'm any other type of business owner, what am I looking for to see, like, how I find my niche, how I find my audience, by making myself different.

I came here with all this experience, and for me, I guess I just. It was so clear to me what was missing, because it was missing from me. So it was so easy for me to see what I needed. I needed a place where I could speak English because I didn't speak Hebrew yet. I needed someone to help me with. Like, even now, you know, all the Anglos that come to us and ask, like, which bus goes where? Or whatever, now we can help them, or, like, how do I get this contact to work in this company? And then you can just sit in Zoho and you can meet somebody that's relevant to Whatever you were looking for by chance. So I think that community, that's exactly what was missing. So it was so clear to me. So I think if I would say to other business owners that if you just see what's missing for yourself, then it is probably missing for a lot of other people because you're not alone.

The Zoli in front of us today has a plethora of knowledge about how to start a small business. Is there anything you now would like to tell your old self when you started off?

My advice would be delegate, learn how to ask for help. Especially because I didn't speak the language and I just like, I'm just not someone who asks for help. Know how to step away when you can. I was literally, if Zoho was open in the first four years, I would say I was there. I was never not there. And in the first year being open, we were open seven days a week. I mean, my health suffered. I would say to my old self, take everything in stride, walk away when you can, because the business is not healthy and doesn't move forward if you don't do that. And Zoho only started moving forward when I started delegating, asking for help and giving myself, even if just a couple of hours a week, to not be there because it cannot thrive.

So before, before we say bye to you, I know you need to head back to the cafe. If you could boil the last six and a half years of Zoho, what it means to you down into one sentence, what would you tell people?

I think I would just say that Zoho has given me purpose and meaning and a way to go forward. It's taught me a lot about my own life. So, yeah, purpose and meaning, that's really how I would describe the whole place because I have learned so much, I have received so much and given so much in the process. So that's how I would leave it. Yeah, just at that. Purpose and meaning.

I think we'll leave it at that. Zoli, thank you so much for coming into the studio.

It's been a pleasure.

I look forward to the next time I get to eat some of your bagels, which will probably be tomorrow.

Okay, great. I'll be there.

Alright, cool. Thank you. Thanks again.

You're welcome. Thanks.

We'll talk to you soon.

Hey, guys. I definitely learned a bunch from Zoli, not just about restaurants, but most importantly about customer service in general when you're starting a business. As we can see, customer service.