Expanding the Biotech Talent Pool with Kevin E. Johnson, Human Capital Professional

Welcome to Building Biotechs, a podcast by Reconomics Consulting. We're your hosts, Karina and Allison. Today we're joined by an individual who has made an indelible mark on the human resources landscape, especially within the dynamic world of biotech. Kevin Johnson boasts over two decades of experience optimizing HR operations for Fortune 500 giants. Most recently senior vice president of human capital at Agendia. Kevin's expertise ranges from strategic talent management to fostering a performance driven culture. Whether he's navigating the intricacies of mergers and acquisitions or championing initiatives like diversity, equity and inclusion, Kevin's holistic approach to HR showcases the profound impact of marrying business strategy with human capital. It's an honor to have him here today. Welcome, Kevin. Welcome to Building Biotechs by Recredomics Consulting. We've helped over 90 biotech, life sciences and venture capital firms strategize and hire thousands of employees to scale companies that impact human health. We speak with those at the forefront of growing biotechs to learn their tactics on building these companies from the ground up. I'm Karina Klingman, founder and principal at Recrudomics Consulting. Enjoy the show.

Thank you. Thank you. I feel honored to be here today.

Wonderful. So we always start with sort of the same question because our audience is fairly broad. So we have folks that are actively building biotechs and we also have folks who are just dipping their toes in the water of the biotech world. And so we like to highlight how people kind of got where they are so that, you know, aspiring scientists and folks trying to get into biotech know how to get there. So what did you want to be when you were 7 and where are you now and how did you get there?

Yeah, so when I was seven years old, I had the dream to be a basketball player slash football player. So I grew up in the Chicago area at that time. So we were all Chicago Bears fans when I was 7. Not much of Bulls fan that came later when I was in high school. But that's kind of what I wanted to be. Where I'm at now is I'm a human resource professional and human capital professional I should say. And how I got here, I'd say I was really after college just really finding my way, making a lot of little mistakes here and there, but really taking the path last less traveled in my career. So I just was always was signing up for opportunities that perhaps were the most popular opportunity and maybe things that other people didn't sign up for. But I always really kept the vision of kind of what I wanted to be. I had this picture in my mind of kind of how I wanted to be later in my career. So this dreaming is also a kind of a tool that I had, you know, using to help me establish kind of where I wanted to be and how I was going to get there. And here I am today. And I would, I would say the last part is really listening to people's stories. I was a keen listener. I was really intrigued by where everybody came from, how they got there, what they did, what mistakes they made. So those are, those are some of the things that kind of helped shaped and formulate how I got to where I'm at today.

Yeah, we share that interest. We love hearing stories. Thank you for yours.

Yeah, following up on that, you know, when you look at your bio, you've worked across a variety of really interesting industries. As far as the biotech industry, what drew you into getting into that field? How did you get attracted into biotech versus some of the other industries you've worked in?

Yeah, great question. And as you said, my background is pretty industry agnostic. My first leap into that biotech kind of healthcare umbrella was back around 2019 where I was kind of passively looking and I had an opportunity. And I think that's where a lot of things start. People have that one opportunity and someone came and was recruiting me. I looked at it, you know, a couple of times, passed on it the first time and secondly, kind of did some soul searching and really looking inside and said, hey, you know, maybe this is something I could take on. I went home and talked to my wife and said, hey, what do you think? The opportunity lined up where I wanted to be from a career perspective at that time. So I was fortunate enough to be in a position to take the leap. So I just took that leap and jumped into working for a company called Invigo.

And what surprised you most when you stepped into that biotech space as it compared with your other industries?

Yeah, it was interesting. I think what surprised me the most working for a PE backed organization was just the pace of how we moved. I think I was pleasantly surprised on. They wanted to know your point of view. Everybody had a point of view, right. And it was really interesting. So that was new. Not that in the other private, you know, I should say public companies that they didn't, but it was really like, hey, you have an idea, let's try it. Where that's much different. In more of a public company, they're just due to layers of how things need to happen. So I was pleasantly pleased with that and just I think the deep empathy the team that I worked with, the organization that I worked with, had for all employees, no matter what, from an entry level all the way up. They were always very concerned and very astute and had a very keen ear to understanding what was going on in, across, up and down the organization.

That's a really great lead into one of my favorite questions we ask, which has to do with communication and how organizations and departments handle communication, obviously with people resourcing and human capital. I mean there is such a, it's a people job, it's a personal thing and communication is so key. What have you found to be really effective means of communication? What are some of the struggles you've had when you're growing these functions and communicating with all these stakeholders and employees that you'd like to talk about?

Yeah, I think one of the things that I've learned to do is really lean into and be deliberate about communicating with people. And what I mean by that, what it's not, it's not always talking. It's a lot about listening to verbal, non verbal and I think also meeting people where they're at. So again, as I said earlier, I was always keen to understand people's stories and I never took it. When I would travel to different locations, I did walk in there with my title. I kind of left the business card in the car or the Uber or wherever, however I got there. And I was always interested in understanding people. So I would walk right up to you. Hi, I'm Kevin. Or you know, tell me what you're doing. So I think that also that continuous learning led me to be a pretty effective communicator there. So asking a lot of questions for me, inviting people to offer their opinion when we're in meetings, I want to hear from everybody. I want to hear because we all have something to add and I like to understand what it is that people are thinking and then sometimes how we can then intertwine that into whatever it is we're trying to solve. So I would structure. I met with my team, I would do skip level meetings. I would, I was very intentional about one on ones with people. The majority of my week, I'll say a strong majority of it was actually communicating and talking to different people from the CEO all the way down to entry level positions.

For those of us who are newer to the industry space, when you say skip level, can you define that for our younger viewers who are just coming into this?

Sure. So what I Mean by skip level. So in my organization or departments that I would have, I would set up weekly calls with the direct reports that I had. If I had a larger team, in a lot of instances I did, I would then on odd weeks I would skip the direct report and I would go to their direct report and I would just conduct one on ones that way globally. So, you know, one month, maybe the US employees, the next month I may change and you know, switch it over to some of our European folk there. But that's what I meant by skip level. And we would just do on a periodic basis.

That's so valuable. That is really, really valuable to those more junior employees. So thank you for explaining that. So when you're talking about communication too, we you've now worked in, you know, public companies and then private equity backed companies. How did the communication change in terms of how you would communicate? Things like change management or external communications. Was there any difference there?

Yeah, I think there was. I mean from my experiences and everyone has different experiences to share communic was I found myself having to communicate pretty regularly and pretty quick. We had to be quick on our feet. And one of the roles I had, I had internal communication reporting directly to me. And when the CEO said this person would report to you, I was like, okay, didn't know what that meant. So I found myself meeting with her almost pretty much every other day trying to figure out exactly, you know, how we needed to build communication, how it differs, I think from a larger company. I think there's less, so to speak, guardrails sometimes working in a smaller organization. However, we did have to be a little bit more sensitive to a lot of different things based on the industry that we were working in. Healthcare is a highly regulated industry there. So on the flip side of that, we had to be extremely sensitive on what was going out to customers, what was posted on a website. So I think the difference for me, I was a little bit more involved and closer to things that I think we just took for granted. When you would just see a website and you would have there's a narrative there. Being head of the internal communication, it was almost looking at every single word all the time. And I think now the world that we work in and everything being socialized and able to be read around the world and literally like a nanosecond, we had to remain very sensitive to that on our game as it relates to communication. I think internally too we were very deliberate about educating employees in the business of where the business was at and I did that well I participated in that with public companies. However, with a smaller organization and how we were leading things, we were just a little bit more deliberate about doing that on a regular basis.

That makes a lot of sense.

So obviously one of the key components here is that having clear communication, effective communication, is so critical to growing and scaling a healthy organization and a healthy biotech. But could you touch on some of the other key human capital strategies that are so crucial for the sustainability of an organization?

Yeah, absolutely, as we kind of stole the first one. Right. So communication was the first piece, and I think with the last piece on the communication is the ability to ensure of the cross pollination and cross collaboration of communication. Because sometimes we can tend to silo that communication in one specific area. But I think in, I would say, smaller organizations, it's very vital to make sure we're collaborating across the aisles all the time. So I would say that that last piece on communication, the next key strategy I would say is important is the business acumen, really knowing what and where you know, the business is doing, how it's doing, and how you actually contribute to that. So I think one of the things I like to do is try to educate the human capital or HR function on the overall business result is, you know, what, what is it they're doing that helps contribute to the bottom line and how we're driving results there. So I would say the. The other key point, my last point on some of the human capital strategies would just be integrity. I think it's important that people bring their true selves to work, you know, act and conduct themselves in a professional manner there. But I think it also works up and down the ladder. I think it is also really kind of on us as leaders to also demonstrate that integrity and inform the business of kind of where we're at. I would say internally, folks, there's an external kind of responsibility as well, but I would say internally as well, we need to be communicative on where things are at, how things are going, you know, the pluses and minus and opportunities, as I said. So everybody who actually is contributing knows exactly the direction of where the organization is going.

Yeah, I think we're seeing that come through a lot too, with this return to work. A lot of the things you touched on I see get brought up over and over. Some employees are really disgruntled about the return to work they were promised they wouldn't have to. Some are really excited about it. Ultimately being, you know, working from home was not what they anticipated. It's been a wild couple of years. So I would love to touch on that with you and see, you know, from a human capital perspective, what your thoughts are on the hybrid, you know, in office, return to work situation we're seeing across the board.

Yeah, I think, you know, great question and it's interesting because I now have adult children that are going to work that came up in high school during COVID you know, that time where their last years in high school or first years in college, they were, you know, in the house and hunkered down. And so we, we talk about that quite a bit. You know, I think it seems to me it comes up like a traditional view versus kind of the new way of doing things. The employment landscape has changed. It is here to stay. There's a lot of things we're not going to turn back. So that's when you have that more traditional kind of perspective kind of versus the new perspective there. I do think it's about clear communication and understanding the why. I think where a lot of the gap has come, at least from some of the things that I've read and my experiences, is we don't do the best job at explaining to people why we want them to come back to work. I would say, number one, I think the other perk to that is that we also think, okay, if one person comes in, they everybody needs to come in. And, you know, so I don't think it's a one kind of one, one blanket for everything at this point. I think we need to understand why we need certain roles to come in, because you're going to need that. I think we need to communicate that. And I also think we need to listen and I think we need to understand other perspectives and points of view before we just say it's going to be this or it's going to be that. The last point I would say, and I'm using my own kids. There is even with this new generation kind of, you know, kind of coming to work, I mean, love my kids to death, but they were also brought up in kind of a time where a lot of communication was electronic. So we have to ask ourselves, when we asked, you know, kind of this new generation that's coming into work, you know, is it about them coming to work physically and being there, or is it about really retraining them on how to communicate because they can physically be in the office, but if they're in their cube and their heads are down and they're really focused on what they're focused on, are we getting what we really expected to get by demanding that people come back to work. So I'll leave it there.

No, I think that's such a fascinating subject. We're really seeing a couple of things at play right now. You're right. There's a new generation that even went to school during the pandemic and, you know, trying to integrate into a workforce. There's a lot of new norms. And so just, you know, curious with your role, you know, how have you helped sort of ease that transition? You know, do you have any magic potions that you can give our audience?

Yeah, I don't know if I have any magic, but I, you know, when I specifically, if I look at my department, originally, my department was 90% or maybe even more women. And women were. Have been in some cases, not all cases, but the primary caregivers for families and some had young children. So again, it was kind of trying to meet people where they were at and, you know, trying to understand exactly kind of what their needs were. Was it caregiving? And it doesn't have to be just women, but was it caregiving for other family members? You know, were there other needs that needed to be met? And then I tried to match them up on how the work and things that we needed to have done. And both organizations, the last couple that I've worked with, have been global, so we're around the clock. So we would try to be very specific on who needed what when. And I think as long as we were meeting the needs of the business partners, internal and external, I tended to be a little bit flexible. But it was also important that we also at, from an HR perspective, mainly to also showed and demonstrated whatever the business was asking for. So that could be, you know, okay, if we needed people in the office, do we do something on a rotational basis? You know, in, you know, if you're working. And then I remember in manufacturing where we would have three shifts, we would maybe put someone on a third shift. That's just so you had presence there. So I go back to. I think it's, let's communicate what the need is. Let's talk about kind of what the personal needs are and how those can be met. Now all of them can't be met. And sometimes you have some cases where we've had to, you know, kind of split and go our separate ways. But for the most part, we were able to be able to meet people where they were at with their needs and demonstrate and show some flexibility.

Hey there. Just a quick break. I wanted to let you know that if you're Listening to this podcast because you are exploring careers in biotech, which it turns out, quite a few of our listeners actually are. You might be interested in the Biotech Career Coach podcast. It is brought to you by our sister company, the Collaboratory Career Hub, which is our career development community. If you would like actionable tips on job seeking and career development, that is the place for you. It is a companion podcast to our Career Coach column that we write monthly in Biospace. But we go a little more in depth and sometimes we have special workshops and all of that good stuff. So if that sounds interesting, click the link in the show notes or search for the Biotech Career Coach on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts back to the show.

One of the things that I think is really interesting too, when you work in a global organization, how do you maintain a really cohesive and really healthy company culture when you can't all be together, when you've got people spread out everywhere? Were there certain initiatives or certain things that you had implemented or that you saw go into practice at any of these global companies that you thought were really effective for keeping a team as united as possible across, you know, time zones, borders, everything else?

Yeah, I think it was a couple of things for me was mainly engagement and that can mean a lot of different things. But are we actually engaging with our employees? Again, that can be anything from surveys, it can be anything to in office days, it could be anything to meeting after work. So there's a lot of. I think what Covid has shown us is that we have the wherewithal and we've been battle tested to be able to, you know, being forced into a situation where we had to communicate, you know, laptops and, you know, social media and things like that. But I definitely think we have to move the engagement needle up on the priority list as before would be one of those things. I think presence is also important. So being in a global organization, really showing up to different locations, getting out there, because at one time and one of the organizations I worked for, our operators had to come to work, right? It was, it was a necessity of the job while most people were at home. So it was important that we as leaders also made it a point to get to these operational locations and show them that they weren't only in there by themselves, that hey, we can also get there as well. So I think it's, you know, again, going back to some of the creativity is, you know, asking also people what do they need? So the ones that maybe are coming in or have to come in on a more frequent basis. Exactly. What are they needing to stay engaged, to stay afloat? Explaining them to, explaining to them our perspective and maybe the situation where the organization is going. But inviting them into the conversation I think is key.

Yeah, definitely. Switching gears a little bit to biotech specifically. How are you or how have you in the past balanced the need for a specialized talent against sort of the broader competencies that are required to make a biotech work and stay agile?

For me it was a couple of things when I got into, like you said, the biotech and healthcare space. And what I saw was that, you know, starting very early and what I mean by that is from an education perspective, STEM programs there are I think very, very important because I think unlike, it's almost like other recruiting, you know, it's about relationships and establishing relationships. It's not just about the technical capabilities, but we have to start early somewhere in our community, in our schools, universities and other places that are going to help us really kind of yield the right talent that we need. I think it's again casting a wider net and looking at maybe underserved communities and other areas where maybe some of these, the biotech space at health care is not maybe being taught. So how do we, how do we bring leaders in to, to show others in other communities that hey, you know, you can aspire to be this and this is how medicine works and this is how we create these things. I think is important and I think also assess your in house talent. You know, we tend to sometimes, I think overlook some of the talent that is right there in underneath our nose. And I think invest in that talent, demonstrate to our internal employees that yeah, you may be in customer service for five years, but that person may want to do something else. We need to ask them, you know, kind of what are their aspirations, what do they, you know, aspire to be and do. And I think we need to look at that. But also requires that investment from the organization.

Yeah, following up on that a little bit, you mentioned some of the underrepresented communities and we know that biotech has not historically done a great job of reaching out and doing, you know, development programs early in the careers and education of those communities. Have you experienced any great, great changes? Do you have any programs that you participate in? Like where are you working in that space?

We don't have any programs that we're working in right now. I think what has, what I've seen recently is just the beauty in being able to communicate, using again LinkedIn and kind of Social media, I mean, I've really tapped in some, some fabulous people and more so than not, I've, I've found people across all makeups who are just willing to help, they want to help. Right. And it's, it was really surprising to me over this last month just again, how many people have communicated with and asked about certain things. So I think it's, you know, not being shy and maybe, you know, identifying, hey, here's what we don't know. You know, how do I, how do I get into this community? Help educate me. How do we come to the table? First, let's have the conversations. Because I think without the conversations there's a lot of kind of assumptions, presumptions made and I think it's just really starting out that way because the beauty of where I think we're, we've evolved from, from human resources to human capital is human capital is not just one dimension. It's all assets. It's all people in the organization. And I think by utilizing people that are in your organization that may be different is asking them as well, hey, can you go with me here? I'd like to go visit this school or I'd like to go to this conference. And I mean, I think image is a big, big key when people can actually see themselves in other people. I think it also helps.

Yeah, absolutely. We do a lot of, a lot of work in that space. I would say the, the outreach from the biotech side is so key for the young folks who are thinking about STEM careers or never even considered STEM careers. Just seeing that that's a possibility, that's a career path. So that's a passion of mine. Someday we'll solve that problem. Right now it's one school at a.

Time, I guess, shifting gears slightly but relatively in the same vein of what we're talking about with things moving forward and using social media. What are your thoughts on AI and its how it's going to impact human capital in the years to come and how it might be impacting it right now.

Yeah, another great question. It's interesting because it's, it's really in my feeds every day and I think it's probably in all of our feeds every day. And you know, you've got one side that says this and one says this is that. So I think right now I'm kind of in the middle. I actually kind of use it for certain things. I think it's like most of the time like any other tool, it's how you use it. And if you use it with maybe not the best intent. That's where I think problems can be. I like to see it as a benefit to really additive value to businesses as organizations, you know, and I think the more we can maybe lean into some things and understand it maybe a tad bit better, perhaps it can be better welcomed. But as I said earlier, the employment landscape has changed and I don't think that we're going to see ourselves going back. It's just really embracing some things there. My wife and I have invested in an electric vehicle and we talk to family members and things like that, and people are, I'm just going to keep my gas vehicle. But I'm like, we've had the combustible engine for hundreds of years. It's about time we change and it's kind of here to stay. Right? So I think with AI like that, I think if we can look at it as kind of how do we create additive value? How do we train people in under, you know, understanding exactly what it is as opposed to this. This almost like this thing in a cage that we're poking at, you know, free. It's going to bite us and embrace it. So I'm looking at it in a positive way.

You know, we talk a lot about it in the recruiting space and the talent space and in terms of how we can responsibly use AI to reach more candidates but not introduce bias. That's the big. That's the big fear right now is introducing bias into a process that already has a lot of bias in it. And, you know, we're already trying to tackle that. Any thoughts around that? And using it through the talent acquisition and acquiring, you know, the human capital?

Yeah, as I said, kind of like I said, I can get different days. I go both ways. And I do understand, you know, the challenges where, you know, it's not, you know, being able to maybe pick up differences in people perhaps, you know, facial recognition, skin color and things like that, which I think would cause more of a gap, you know, kind of in our current situation. So I'm confident and optimistic that, you know, the people that are behind it, you know, are working through those types of things there, so we don't create more dissension amongst us, you know, globally, because, again, it's not just a domestic problem or a domestic challenge, I should say. It's a global challenge. And with a global makeup, we've got all kinds of different people around the world there. So, yeah, I think that is one of the main things that we hear from that standpoint. There but yeah, like I said, I'm very confident that, you know, throughout, as we've kind of worked through other things, that we're going to kind of work some of those kinks out. It's going to take some time, but I think we've got the right people behind it and I have, you know, confidence in those that govern those laws and things like that that we're going to, you know, we'll hit a couple trip wires here and there, but I think, you know, overall we're going to get to a point where again, it's just something that we're going to kind of bring into our lives and into our organizations that we run.

Yeah, I share your optimism. I'm really optimistic that we are going to see some, some great tools come out and we're definitely following the legislation closely. New York is obviously setting, setting the pace for us in this one. California is usually the pacesetter, but in this case it's New York, so we'll see. But it's, it's certainly interesting and worth following. So week by week, I'm reading the headlines.

Well, on that note, for people who may be, you know, interested in STEM and, you know, maybe they really do want to start a career in biotech, what advice do you have? What kind of philosophy would you like to share with people who are maybe going to be the next level of emerging leaders in biotech, especially if it comes to HR and human capital?

Yeah, good question. I mean, I think if you're in school, I actually did this with my daughter this summer before she went back. Is. I think it's important for us to, as individuals to kind of figure out what is it that really gets us up in the morning, what are the, some of the skill sets that we're good at and how do people see us, how do we come across the individuals? And I think there's a lot of different ways of figuring that out, but I think if there's something inside burning, I think you respond to that and you ask questions and try to figure out, okay, really what is it that I want to do? I think so often, and as I use my daughter for an example, you know, we, we think we want to do certain things and we're chasing money and the titles and those types of things where a lot of times that's okay. But you, you may be wired to be doing something different. And we experienced that that summer with my daughter. So I would encourage, you know, people that have, that are inquisitive, that have an itch just Ask. As I said earlier, there's so many people out here that want to help. I think we have the tools at our hands to send out things, you know, using LinkedIn and other types of platforms to inquire and really, really just follow that passion. And I think once you follow the passion, that brings a lot of joy, happiness, not only to yourself, but to others. And then I think, you know, life then starts making sense as we, as we move through it. So, you know, and then anywhere you can help, you know, if it's, if it's a small program in your community, universities, things like that, where you can get involved in, I would say definitely, you know, raise your hand, get involved, volunteer, and then if you have the opportunity, with a lot of organizations that have continuous education, education reimbursement. You know, I met someone the other day that told me you can never be overeducated or overdressed. You can never be overeducated or overdressed. So if you have the opportunity in your life allows you to, to, you know, kind of squeeze that in a bit, you know, as far as education, I definitely encourage, you know, individuals to take advantage of that.

I'm stealing that. It's a great saying. Kevin, what is next for you? Where do you envision the next stage of your career?

I think I've got a couple more laps around the track, you know, kind of in the health care, biotech space and working for some organizations and providing my skill set and leading transformation in helping organizations scale there. So I see that. I told my wife, I said, I think we're going to eliminate the word retire. Retired to mean means stop.

Agreed.

I think Webster should take it out of the dictionary because I think it's just like I said, I think about, you know, grandparents and things. They retired at 55 and just kind of didn't do much after that. Right. So I think, you know, the 50s, I hear of the new 40s, we've got so much technology out there to, you know, keep us moving and doing what we need to do. So I also see myself as really trying to create more and more added value, one person at a time. That's how I think we're all going to kind of change the world. You know, it's just going to take us, you know, one, one piece at a time, one step at a time, and kind of really kind of keep going. So, yeah, I just, like I said, never, never over educated, never overdressed.

Well, one of the other questions we always ask people, and it's one of My favorites. I think it's so interesting. What is one of your favorite fiction or nonfiction books that you've read recently? Or you can just give us your favorite of all time.

Wow. So I like a lot of nonfiction. I think the two that come to mind was Becoming by Michelle Obama and the other one I'm reading right now is called Empathy Economics. It's the story of Janet Yellen, who is our 78th treasury sitting Treasury secretary and really her journey and perseverance throughout different administrations and teaching at the collegiate level, how she was raised. It's an awesome story. I mean, my friends tease me when they see the book. They're like Empathy Epiconomics. You actually read this for entertainment. I'm like, you got to read the book, right? You got to kind of get in there and look at that. So I'm just, it's a page turner for me. Like I said, it's more about her story, her journey. It's not a kind of a political one side or the other. It's really about her and her, like I said, coming up, like as I said, Michelle Obama and becoming. Again, it's not a political book. It's just, it's just as I said earlier in this podcast is I loved people's stories and how they've gotten to where they're at so much is not what meets the eye. You see things and we think, wow, you know, they started out a certain way when in most cases it's been quite the opposite. I would say from a fiction perspective, when I, I would say, yeah, from a fiction perspective, I would say I'm really into, I like the Patrick Lencioni kind of parables and those books that he puts out. So I'll read those. I've read probably most of all his books except for some of the new ones. And then I kind of will get a little down and dirty and I'll read some legal thrillers in some kind of murder thrillers there. So I was reading one, it's called the Force by Don Winslow. And then I was reading another, more of a legal thriller. It's called the Defense by Steve Kavanaugh. I think he's an actual British author, but it's, it's an awesome book. So I like, I'll go outside, sit there and that's what I do with my, my fun time.

I love it. Those are awesome recommendations. This is very self serving. All I do is put these on a list for myself and then I make a big list of all the books I want to read. So you've just given me some great options. Maybe we should actually compile a list that I'll share out after the podcast of all the good books that everyone suggests because we've had some awesome answers. But I will definitely, definitely be checking out yours because those sound fantastic.

That would be awesome. Well, thank you very much.

Hey, Kevin, how can people reach out to you? Is LinkedIn great?

Yeah, I would say LinkedIn is probably the best way to, to reach out to me there. So I'm very active on, on LinkedIn and I do make it my duty to respond. I may not respond within about, you know, 24 to 36 hours, but I, I do take it that if someone reaches out, I, I'm. I want to make sure I do respond. So LinkedIn is going to probably be the best way to contact me. So it's actually Kevin E. Johnson, you know, would be the name that you would type in and in my kind of header comes up as Global HR Human Resources Executive there. So that would be the best way to reach out to me.

Okay, perfect. We'll actually link that in our show notes. People can click right through to it as well. But yeah, thank you so much. Do you have anything else to add? This was a fantastic conversation.

No, I really enjoyed it. Thank you both for hosting and having me on this show. So looking forward to hearing others points of views and things on this topic. So thanks again. This was excellent.

Our absolute pleasure. Thank you.

Thank you, Kevin. It was a delight.

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