Never Fear Salary Negotiations Again: Panel Discussion Recap

Karina I'm Karina Klingman, scientist turned CEO of a talent strategy consulting firm.

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In the right place. Hey and welcome to the podcast. Today I'm going to recap a panel discussion I did this week with Brandon Miller and we went over salary negotiations. So I will tag Brandon in the show Notes if you want to connect with him. It was a really great discussion. I'm just going to go over the basics. You can always go to the AAPS website and get access to that webinar recording. You may need to be a member, but membership is relatively inexpensive and it's a really great group. They do tons of career development things. I'm actually going to be flying out to San Antonio for their annual meeting and I'm going to do a career development session there as well with a different panelist. So if you want to join me there you are. Welcome. I'd love to see you. For today, I just want to run through the main topics that we covered in that webinar and sort of give you an overview of my thoughts and Brandon's thoughts on how to handle these situations. So first of all, we were asked to describe a situation where we helped somebody handle a successful negotiation. Recently, Brandon gave a really great example of somebody who was excited about a role they couldn't quite get there on salary. The company was coming in lower than they really needed and he helped them to develop a counter offer that included a probationary period and a salary bump after 90 days. So he shared a script that was along the lines of I'd be comfortable accepting X now if we can revisit it 90 days with the understanding that performance will trigger a salary adjustment closer to my target. So that's a really great method to get creative. I think that was sort of a theme here was creativity Offers don't need to be just about base salary. They can be about all kinds of things and for this person really proving their worth and then getting the salary they deserve after 90 days was a really reasonable compromise. My Example was working with a scientist recently who had two job offers in hand, which I know is a huge luxury these days, but she had one that was significantly lower than the other. But she was excited about that company because it was closer to her home, only about 15 minutes away, whereas the other company was about an hour away. And so she was looking at work, life balance as well as lots of other things. Like she loved the team, she was excited about the work. There are a lot of things to consider. It is not just a number. You're thinking about a whole life, right? Your work is a huge proportion of what you do every day. So if you are going to be commuting a lot and missing things with your family, that's a consideration. If there isn't good career progression in the role, that's a consideration. If you're not excited about your manager or your team, all of these things matter and it's hard to put a value on that. But at the end of the day you kind of have to. That's what this whole salary negotiation thing is. So in this example, the two offers were, there was an offer for a senior scientist title at about $120,000 base plus some benefits, and there was a scientist level title with about a hundred thousand dollars base. So about a $20,000 delta there. When we sat down and really thought about it, that ease of commute was something that she was putting quite a lot of monetary value on, somewhere between 15 and $20,000. So really then the delta was not all that different. With that in mind, she negotiated a little bit of career development and she also negotiated readjustment, similar to Brandon's example, a probationary period where she would be fast tracked for a promotion if she was meeting all of her goals. So this is another really great example of getting a bit creative and also recognizing that the salary is not the only thing here. We also discussed when a company tells you that they are giving you their best offer and there's no room for negotiation. And Brandon and I had different takes on this because he works externally and I work mostly internally with companies. So Brandon advised candidates to stay calm and not accept anything too quickly. Take some time, pause, let yourself ingest the offer and really fully understand it. And then coming back with something that's encouraging to the company, saying something like, I understand, but if we could get closer to X, I'd be comfortable moving forward right now. So you're essentially telling them, yeah, I would say yes, if we could get to this number. And if you're really not Very far off saying something like, I appreciate that. If there's any flexibility, I'd like to continue exploring. There are some ways that you can handle that. And essentially his advice was don't take no for an answer there. If they're telling you there's no room for negotiation, he doesn't buy it. From my perspective, I will say that sometimes I'm really transparent with candidates when I am absolutely at the ceiling. I've done everything I can, but I'm working from the company side, so I have that insider knowledge. When that is the case, I will be really clear with you. And I can't say that for every recruiter, but if you're working with me, that is the case. I will tell you exactly what the number is. And I'll also help you to get creative with the offer and think about, you know what, could there be a signing bonus? Could there be some flexibility? A work from home day? Could there be something along the lines of career development or a certification that you can get something else beyond just the initial monetary value of that offer? So I do try and work with candidates to be flexible there, but sometimes it's pretty tricky. What I can't do is bring somebody in way above everybody else at that level because I will run the risk of losing the great scientists we already have in the company. So we do have to play that game. We have to really think about internal parity. We sometimes call it internal equity. What is the baseline for other people at that same level doing the same job? On the topic of creativity, we talked about things beyond the base salary like perks and flexibility. There is a different market right now. Between 2021, when it was absolutely wild and we were doing everything we could to attract candidates and retain them, we were offering weird things like pet insurance and all kinds of fun stuff. But today we're really not seeing that. Today people are sort of expecting or they became accustomed to flexibility because they were working from home or hybrid. And so that is really our main tool these days, even for lab based rules. Trying to create flexibility of one day a week where people are doing data analysis from home, or there's a big meeting day. And so you know what? Yeah, stay home and do that meeting day at home. We're trying to build that into our offers because that's something that people value a lot. A big topic was salary disclosure. So know this. Legally you are not required to disclose your current salary in most states. And so I would just say as a blanket, don't do it. You don't need to disclose your salary and we should not be asking you that as recruiters. So I do ask candidates is what would you like to be making in your next role? Which leaves things really open ended. It leaves room for candidates who know that they're underpaid to ask for what they're worth, as opposed to disclosing what they're paid now, which is often too low. So you can do your research, think about what you should be getting paid, what you think you should be getting paid, what you want to be getting paid, network with peers, look at job postings that have salaries posted, try and get a really good feel for what you're worth. And then if you do want to disclose what you'd like to be making, just so that you know that you're in the ballpark and you're not wasting your time with interviews where they're not going to be able to pay your worth, you can throw out a number, maybe it's a range, but Brandon also said please turn it around and ask them first. In his opinion, the person who throws out the first number loses. I don't always think that way because I try not to make anyone lose in my negotiations. I really hope everyone's winning. But there is something to be said for waiting and seeing what the range is that the company's willing to offer, if you can get that. So push for that, really try and get out of the company what their range is and then expect to be somewhere in the middle of that range, maybe even on the low end of that range because we're often hiring for people who will be able to grow in that role. So if we hire at the top of the range, we're not going to be able to give you any promotions or raises. So. So just know that too. We had some great questions about stock and equity, which is such a sticky situation because honestly, all the clients I work for are early stage companies and that equity is often not worth anything yet and it will only be worth something if there's a liquidity event. So if the company goes public or licenses something or it gets acquired by another company, you might see some value from those stock options or equity. It might be phantom stock, it might be RSUs. There's all kinds of ways that this is structured. But if you're in a bigger company that is public, it's a little bit easier to understand the value of your stock. So I do recommend if you are entering into negotiations with a company that's offering you stock or equity, if you have a Financial advisor. They're usually able to help you pick apart those packages to understand them better. This is difficult though for most people to understand and so don't feel bad. If you've gotten an offer and you're like, what even is this equity or what even are these options? It's really difficult to understand, so don't feel bad. From a negotiation standpoint, early stage companies rarely negotiate equity, so that may not be something you can negotiate during the salary negotiation process. But if you're at a high enough level, like you're an executive, sometimes that is somewhat negotiable. So it really just depends. But I'd say up until the senior director level, usually not. Brandon works with PE backed organizations and as opposed to I usually work with VC backed organizations, in this case, PEs are really interesting. They usually don't even give equity unless you're at the C suite. So for him that's not even usually something he negotiates. But if you're going for a publicly traded Takeda or BMS or whatever, you may be able to get equity. It's probably not very negotiable, but you can at least figure out what it's worth. So that's a big nothing section where I basically said who knows. But that really is how it feels when it comes to stock and equity. I do think it's valuable. I've seen people be able to put down a nice down payment for their house based on a liquidity event from a startup. So don't rule it out. It could be a windfall and more likely it's going to be something that kind of lives out there, might or might not materialize. So make sure that your compensation package is livable and you're not banking on some big windfall in an unknown timeframe. We also had a really interesting question about negotiating with a current employer for a raise. For me, I will always come back to you should be having regular meetings with your manager. It should never be a surprise where you are on the scale of ready to have a raise or a salary bump or a title increase. That that just shouldn't be something that you're scratching your head about because you are constantly having meetings with your manager. And if you want this template, I have it for you in our community. So don't feel like you have to do this alone. But setting goals with your manager should be a weekly thing where you're checking in on your short term goals, which might be monthly or quarterly, and your longer term goals, which might be your annual goals. You might Even have a three year goal. If you have a great manager and you're really working towards something big, that might be something that they're willing to work with you on the timescale. Sometimes during those conversations it becomes clear that the current organization you're in is not going to be able to support your ultimate goals. And that's something good to know. And it's something also if you have a great manager, they're going to also realize that and help you to level up to maybe even getting a job outside of the organization. And then they're going to be a great reference for you. A good manager wants you to succeed, whether it's with them or it's someplace else in the long run. So know that you can get into that mindset anytime you want by starting to consume information that managers consume. I think it's never too early to read the book Radical Candor by Kim Scott. If you know me, you know it's one of my favorites. Getting into the mindset of a manager will help you to bring a lot of maturity and strategy to those meetings. So read that book and think about those one on ones. Start to have those very important weekly touch points so that you're never surprised and you always know where you are on that career ascension ladder. Brandon and I both also shared the top mistakes that we see candidates making in the salary negotiation process. His was very straightforward. If you are focused, so laser focused on just what that salary is instead of the whole package, is the company going to give you the career development you want? Is it going to give you the work life balance you want? All of these other things besides just that salary number matter. On our side, we're not hiring a number, we're hiring a human. So you need to think about your job in the same way. You're not just going to work for a number, you're going to work for an organization. And that organization should support your goals, both personal and professional. So it's more than just a number. And if you get so fixated on the number, I'm sorry, but we recruiters are really turned off by that. On my end, I am working with my clients to find amazing cultural fits as well. I want someone who's going to be mission oriented, who's going to come in and be so excited to get things done, to drive forward our mission to help patients. And if somebody's only talking about numbers and their salary, that doesn't sound like that person to me. So I'm probably going to shut it down on Brandon's end. He worries that if candidates are so numbers focused that it's going to be really difficult for him to help them get over the finish line with a new potential employer. And again, they're going to get flagged as so money hungry that they're not actually a fit for the organization. So make sure you're not leading with that. Think about the mission. Think about what you need out of a job for your own personal and professional growth. Of course there's a number you have to be able to make money to survive, to put food on the table. However, it doesn't necessarily need to be the only thing you're focused on in these negotiations. Another big mistake that I brought up is accepting a verbal offer on the spot or trying to negotiate a verbal offer on the spot. I love presenting offers verbally, but I don't always expect a yes or no. If I get one, I'm super excited. However, if you hear that verbal offer, you don't have to say anything. You could say simply thank you. I'm really excited about this. Let me review it with my family and get back to you by tomorrow morning. Maybe give it time. Get back to you by 10am tomorrow so that your recruiter knows what to expect and then put your negotiation into writing. Then you can really articulate what you need and why as opposed to sitting there and trying to work it out on the phone on the spot where maybe you're a little tongue tied, a little nervous, you don't want to blurt something out, you don't need to do any of that. Let silence be your friend. And then we also talked about the mindset for a successful negotiation. Brandon urges people to know their value and know what number they're going to walk away from. So if you know I can't accept anything below 150, that just isn't possible with my current situation. Knowing that and having that as a firm walkway number that you do articulate. If you're in a negotiation, you say, you know, I really have to be at this number or above. It's just not going to work for my family. Knowing that, articulating it, that's actually really powerful. And then use silence strategically. You don't always have to be filling that silence. I think I've said that a few times, but that's really good advice. My mindset is always lead with gratitude when you're getting an offer. Show some enthusiasm and thank the recruiter, even if it comes in lower than you'd like. Then take that time and frame up multiple levers that you can pull. Maybe it's some base salary, maybe it's some signing bonus, career development. Tell them all the ways they could make you happy with the offer if they just improved in one or more of these areas. And then put that negotiation into writing. So you can say something in that email like, I'd love to discuss total compensation. I was hoping to closer to X. I would also be open to a signing bonus or leadership training as alternatives. Giving your recruiter some levers to pull so they can go back to HR and say, all right, here's all the things we could do. What works that's going to lead to a speedier outcome and it's also going to show a lot of maturity on your part. All right, that was a lot of information. We had such a good discussion. I just wanted to share a few of the highlights with you again. You can go to the AAPS website and you can join AAPS and you can get access to, I guess, a huge library of these conversations. I was looking through it and they really have done a lot of good discussions. You can always jump into our community. I just reopened it. I'm really excited about our new community. It's in school, that's S K O O L. But head to our website, head to the link in the bio here and jump into that community where I have scripts, I have tools, I have all of the things that you need to be successful both in offer negotiations and honestly, everything else in your career. And I just want to reiterate that negotiating is about creativity and patience and finding a really good mutual win. There is no one size fits all offer. So really what do you need out of it? Really understand that, get clear on it, write it down and then you're going to be so much more prepared to go into these negotiations with authority and really knowing what that walkaway point is for you. Practice some of these scripts, set some goals with your manager. Once you get into that role, understand that your salary, your worth, is determined day by day, right? Every day you can level up. So let your manager help you with that and build your network. Because your network is going to help you to understand what your worth is. If you have a bunch of other folks at your level that you can talk to about salaries and get open about that sort of thing, it is going to help you to understand if you are overpaid, underpaid, paid, just right. We really need to know these numbers for ourselves. And really the best way to do that is talking with people. So with that I will see you all in the community. And thanks so much for tuning in. Thanks so much for listening to the.

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