Unlocking Leadership Potential in Biotech with Tony Martignetti, Founder and Chief Inspiration Officer of Inspired Purpose Partners

Today I had such a fun conversation with Tony Martinetti. He is a leadership advisor, he's a bestselling author, he's a podcast host, he's a speaker, an entrepreneur, he's a curiosity junkie. All the things. This is such an important conversation because I personally don't feel that biotech leaders get enough coaching and support early on or even throughout the process of building their biotechs and it's not something we're taught in school. Tony shares some great frameworks about how he coaches leaders into being more grounded, more creative, more connected and more curious, which all leads to building a stronger our company. So I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. I loved his recommendations and I think you'll get a lot out of it.

Welcome to Building Biotechs, a podcast by Reconomics Consulting. We've helped over 75 biotech, life science and venture capital firms strategize, hire and retain thousands of employees to scale companies that bring life saving drugs to patients. We speak with those at the forefront of growing biotechs to learn their tactics on building these companies from the ground floor to the C suite. We're your host, Karina and Allison, thank.

You so much for coming on the show. Tony, it's a pleasure. I'm excited to chat with you. All things leadership development, I think that's a really interesting topic and something that I feel that some early stage biotech founders don't maybe put enough weight on is that development aspect. So before we get into that though, I want to know about your career path. Would you mind telling me what you wanted to be when you were 7? What are you now and how did you get there? Because your career is winding.

Yeah, I've been on a lot of different stops along the way, that's for sure. But I love that you went that far back because when I was seven years old, I was probably thinking about being Indiana Jones or, you know, some adventure because that's what I've at the, at the heart of me it's always been can I be that explorer of new worlds? But the way that I explored new worlds was actually through my art. I was an artist as a child who did a lot of like drawing and painting. And I did that through, you know, a very unique way of doing these things. It wasn't about stick figures and, you know, painting dogs, cats and family members. It was more about painting environments and places that evoked emotions and feelings in people. So a lot of my teachers would say, like, man, you've got something going on there's something happening here and I would win a lot of rewards for the stuff I did. And I took that all the way through to, to high school. So I was an advanced placement art. So you probably like painting a picture of this really weird guy who was into art, but I just enjoyed it.

So you say you were an artist. Are you no longer doing art or is that just a passion project?

Well, I love that you say that. You caught my words there. I actually still identify as an artist, but for a period of time I just put that all behind me and I've reconnected with the artists within as I've gotten into the work I do now and I've realized that I, I don't have to. To hide parts of who I am. I can be all of those different identities all in one.

Yeah, I'm really curious about your shift into. Cause you had a very corporate career for, for a long time and then you made a shift. Was there something that triggered that? A pivotal moment or an influence where you thought, you know what, I am going to move from this finance strategy space into more of this leadership advisory role. Anything happened there?

I went into pre med, then went into into business and then spent most of my career working in biotech. So my journey was in an amazing industry, but also realizing that I wasn't necessarily in the right place in that industry for me personally. And people used to reflect that back on me and saying like, hey, there's something about you that's different. But they were just cluing me into something that, you know, maybe I'm a square peg in a wrong in a round hole and that I need to figure out maybe a different path that would light me up. So what really caused me to make the move was first of all burning out. I burnt myself out trying to do all the things that I thought I was meant for and realizing that it wasn't lighting me up. I lost the color in my life. I was doing all these things and working hard to do all those things to the point where I wasn't even connected to who I was. And then after some dark moments started to claw out of that and figure it out. Well, I think I need to do something that's more aligned with who I am. Then I had a moment where I was sitting in a biotech boardroom and decided that, gosh, I think it's my time now. I'm starting to see things more clearly and it's time for me to take control of my life and decided to basically walk out of a boardroom and say, I'm ready to, to leave this room, to change the room. I want to change the way leaders show up. Because I was seeing leaders who weren't treating people like people. They were treating them like cogs in a wheel and not really, you know, appreciating what they were giving to these, these companies that I was working with.

I would like to pull, if you're open to it, the burnout thread, because we are hearing more about it now. People are being a little bit more open, but it shows up differently for everyone and the symptoms and the feelings. Can you share with us how you realized you were burned out and how that was showing up for you?

I often say that I was, I was serving someone else's goal because I, and I started to see that where, you know, as I was moving through my corporate career, I realized that, you know, more and more I was, I was working later and just constantly feeling like I had so much to handle and do. And, and then I would start sacrificing all these things that I thought that were important to me. My family time, my time with friends. And it wasn't like I knew it, I just kept on doing it. It was almost like you get stuck in that pattern and you're blind to the fact that this is happening. And then you start to become resentful, the resentful of other people who are like enjoying their lives. And you know, like how that's not fair, that's not fair, why are they doing that and I have to do this. And then you start to realize, wait a minute, I created this, I created this situation, this is my own doing. And I think that was the hardest part to recognize is when you do notice that I have more control of my life than I thought I did. That pattern is hard to recognize. And it's best that someone comes into your life and helps you to see that the burnout can come from. Not from sitting back and relaxing and saying like, okay, well ho hum, there's nothing I could, you know, nothing I can do about it. But it's from just constantly in that go mode and feeling like you're making progress, but in reality you're not making any progress at all.

Something that you said there I want to circle back on is that you started to realize this. I think that's, that's the thing is most people don't, they, they do feel that what they're doing, there's no other way. They have to keep pushing, they have to keep going. And you're right. That burnout, it just, it's the compounding more and more responsibility, more things, more. More of yourself pushed aside. And sometimes, often I don't think people see that for themselves. So is that sort of the mission here that, that drove you to what you're doing now?

If I take the work that I'm doing now and really kind of concap Encapsulate it into the easiest language people to capture is a sense that I, I've always had been driven by wanting to make a big impact. I mean, the work we do in this industry and beyond is like, we make a huge impact in the world. We save lives. And even, you know, outside of biotech, I do a lot of work with industry, with the tech industry, a lot of interesting companies that are doing really amazing stuff. So it's all about making an impact. But without the burnout, how do you create that? The sense of, of being sure that you are aligned with what's. What you're meant for and ensuring that along that path that you're able to ask for help when you need it, that you know what it is that you're doing that's making a difference and you're creating the right boundaries around you that allow you to ensure that you're not burning yourself out in the process. So absolutely. The impact without burnout is almost like the, the. My mantra of sorts for the people who are out there.

You have been doing this work through the pandemic and now after the pandemic, how has that changed? What are you, what are you seeing there?

The emphasis now above all else, is the need for a deeper connection and the desire for people to feel more in community with each other. The pandemic revealed a lot about us as a society as a whole. Although there was a lot of that happening before the pandemic, it just catalyzed the process of us meeting each other. And so the post pandemic, and I feel like it's even more pronounced as we come into, into this year and beyond, is the sense of like, wow, we, we really need to be building relationships and doing it in a way that's not just on the surface, but on a deeper level to ensure that we, we have what we need to survive and thrive as we move forward. Whether you're building a company, whether you're inside of a company or even outside of your company, we need to have that third space that allows us to have friends and connections because it's all about mental health.

So in your work, you're really focused on Helping tech leaders, biotech leaders navigate this chaos and stay grounded. How is your own experience? You talked a little bit about that, but your own experience with understanding that cha. And how has that shaped that work and is that sort of shaped your core philosophy about how you can be calm, cool, collected while doing this work?

Yeah, I mean there was a lot of chaos in the, in the roles that I had in the corporate world, but also, you know, some of the conversations and things that I've dealt with and situations I've dealt with since leaving the corporate world. A lot of chaos that I hear from my clients when I think about the situations that I dealt with in, in my time in corporate so many times when, you know, there wasn't a clear path forward, clinical trial failures, things that just, you know, constantly put us on edge. And what we, we really needed is someone leaders to step up and be able to say, okay, let's not panic, let's figure this out. We don't have a plan, but let's figure out what we're going to do before we make any rash decisions and come back to why we started in the first place. One of the things that I came, came to realize, and this is not something that I knew in the moments that this, this was the case, but it's about being really grounded in, in who you are and knowing that that's what leads you forward. You know, knowing the, what you stand for allows you to make better decisions. Even when you're not making a decision. You know, when you're in that moment of like, okay, something's happened, sometimes the best thing you can do is to stop and say, let's withhold a decision right now because we need to get some more information.

That's really valuable advice. I want to get into a little bit of the, the meat of this. I want people to take away some little, yeah. Little things that they can put into practice. So I know you've developed a framework or a methodology that helps you to guide leaders. Can you share some of the kind of functional and foundational elements of that framework and how it really facilitates the, that transformation in leaders to that more calm, cool, collected person?

Yeah, well, there's a couple different things that I've, I've done along the way and one of them is particularly helpful and it's called the three Cs of the grounded leadership, which is being connected, having curiosity and then having compassion. So when you think about it, being a grounded leader is all about leading with intention, taking action from a place of intention. But in Order for you to do that, there's an inside, outside job here. When you are curious about yourself, curious about what's going on for you in those moments, and even before the moments happen, you start to be able to clear, get clear about what it is that you want to know in the situation. And then you also get curious about the people around you. What are they experiencing? What are the things that they may have questions about what's going on outside of me that he needs to know more about. So curiosity is like the, it's the most powerful tool you can have. Compassion. Compassion first with yourself, to be compassionate about, you know, I don't have to have all the answers. And it's okay not to feel right all the time. Sometimes that's the gift we have to give ourselves, is that we're human. And that is the starting point to be able to offer other people compassion too, is that we're, you know, needing to support them sometimes through some dark days, you know, and we want to offer that up, especially when things are challenging. So, and then the last part is connection. When we're connected and deeply connected with the people around us, then we can, we can survive through some of the most challenging situations and we can also innovate our way through almost anything. Um, it, it, you know, when I think of connection, there's a foundation of connection which is about trust. Trust is an important part of getting work done. And so when you're connected as a team, as an organization, so many things can, can be, can come from that.

Yeah. And you actually did a TEDx talk or maybe a few on that very topic. I believe we can link some of those in the show notes if people are interested in going a little deeper there. So if we're talking about that connected, that connected workplace, which in our post pandemic world I think we're struggling to get back. Can you have any specific examples of when that can really help a company, maybe in the biotech space, overcome a challenge or innovate better or something like that? How does that connection lead to that?

Yeah, I mean, here's the thing, especially when it comes to being in a virtual world, it's so important that, that they're in tune with, you know, where people are in a particular project or a program. So I've worked with some organizations that have struggled with keeping all of the different pieces of a clinical development program online and knowing, okay, if we need to adapt quickly. You know, there was a particular program that was needing to adapt very quickly because there was some changes in the plan problem is that the people who were involved were everywhere. They just were all over the place. And so, you know, in terms of, like, geographically. And so the biggest challenge was, like, you know, in order for them to get people talking, they needed to make sure that they were on the same page and trusting each other. So one of the things that we did is we started to create these intentional spaces for people to come together and get to know each other on a more grounded level. And again, intentional connection is at the core of this. It's important for you to create a space for that to happen, not just the happenstance of, okay, well, you know, it's the beginning of the meeting. Let's have a chat. It was. It's about creating that intention of this is us, a chance for us to get to know each other on a deeper level as a team, so that when we do that, we can be able to have conversations that move faster together. And that's exactly what happened. As we started to create that container, they just felt more aligned. They felt this energy in the room and motivated to help each other through this challenging period. And they redesigned a lot of their clinical trials. They created a path forward, and that actually helped the company to get through challenging periods. And they lost a few people along the way because of attrition. That was challenging. But they also were still able to keep all the trains running on time, which is really cool.

Hey there. Just a quick break. I wanted to let you know that if you're listening to this podcast because you are exploring careers in biotech, which it turns out quite a few of our listeners actually are, you might be interested in the Biotech Career Coach podcast. It is brought to you by our sister company, the Collaboratory Career Hub, which is our career development community. If you would like actionable tips on job seeking and career development, that is the place for you. It is a companion podcast to our Career Coach column that we write monthly in Biospace, and. But we go a little more in depth and sometimes we have special workshops and all of that good stuff. So if that sounds interesting, click the link in the show notes or search for Biotech Career Coach on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts back to the show. I love that example. Could we do a similar example for Compassion? Because I think that's a big one as well, and I think a lot of people don't know how that fits into this. This puzzle.

Think about an example of. Of layoffs. Right? You know, we. We've got countless examples of companies that have had to lay off their, their staff. And you know, one of the biggest challenge is, is the people who stick around. There's that guilt that people have or the feeling of like, what's this, what does this mean for me? Like, what are, what am I going to be doing and how does this going to impact me? And we often forget about the people who stick around. We think like, oh, they're, they're probably feeling good about the situation because they're here, they've got a job still. Well, we have to, you know, get in tune with them, get to know what it is that they're going through and, and give them sense of like, hey, we're going to celebrate and, and be happy for all the things that the people who have gone have done for us. And we want to let you know that we feel that you have. There's some pains, you're probably some detachment from the people who have left. And we are here for all of that. We want to hear you through this and if anything's coming up for you, let us know. Because, you know, our intention here is to do the best we can for the patients at the end of the day. So whatever we can do for you is going to help that.

That survivor's guilt is real. It is. And that compassion piece, that, that can't be overstated. Thank you for that.

Yeah.

And finally, I love the curiosity piece. I wanted to spend a little time dwelling on that. Um, I think that's the one that resonates with scientists. We are very curious, um, so often don't have a lot of trouble with that. But I think maybe keeping a super open mind, once we have lasered in on what the, the therapeutic indication, the modality, things like that are, I think that's where that curiosity kind of drops off. At least that's what I've seen in organizations. Can you tell us a little bit about your work to help people stay curious in their leadership?

I could talk about curiosity all day. I worked with a lot of organizations where there's a, there's a silo effect, where there's a lot of organiz. Parts of the team that don't feel like they're connected to the other parts. And so being curious could also mean talking with other parts of the team and saying, like, how does my work affect yours? How do we help each other? What does it mean when this happens to really understand the interworking parts, you know, the system dynamics. And so curiosity is about really embracing that, you know, your work is not the end. All Be all. And in fact, the more that you understand the other person's part of the picture, the more it will inform and potentially change the way you show up and do your work. So Curiosity is one of those most. The. It's like the glue that actually makes this organization really run because it allows you to see things differently, keeping an open mind and seeing things from a different angle.

Curiosity has a reputation for killing cats, but I think it's useful for. For a lot more than that. I love that. Thank you for sharing. So I want to continue on the change management tack because biotechs are nothing if not full of change. Our whole industry constantly. So can you talk about how kind of putting this whole thing together, all three Cs, has helped some of your clients to successfully navigate really challenging situations. You talked about that clinical trial, but, you know, changing maybe the funding landscape. Could we talk about that? Because that's been very changeable this past couple of years.

It's really interesting when you think about it from this angle of the three Cs and staying grounded is. It's really. You know, I've seen some clients of mine who have really struggled because they want to do what's right. They want to be able to treat people from a human perspective. But the reality is it's hard. It's hard to be in a leadership position and run these organizations. And so when you know that you're getting pressure from the outside, you're getting pressure to be able to keep the money flowing in, you know, you're going to make some tough decisions, and tough decisions are a tough thing to sell. So the most important thing is when you're communicating is to make sure that you are including all the parts of the conversation in a transparent way. And don't wait till the very end. You know, make sure that along the way you're sharing. This is where we're at and this is what's potentially on the horizon. I don't want to scare anybody, but this is what, you know, potentially might happen. And we're doing the best we can to create a path forward. And that's what I've helped a lot of these leaders do, is to think about how to connect with people on that human level to ensure that they understand the situation and what they're doing to. To move it forward in the right direction and allowing them to see that it's not like there's an ill intent here, that there's always the sense of doing the best they can with what they've got and with all the resources available to them. And that's where the three C's come in. It's like compassion, connecting. And also asking people questions like, that's the other part of this, which, you know, I didn't talk about, but I think as a part of this is to say asking people, what are your questions? What are the things you're concerned about? Let's talk about it.

It's really interesting, too, that. That curiosity, asking people what their concerns are. Because as a leader, our concerns are very different.

Yeah.

And honestly, unless you ask. When you do ask, I can say from experience, when you do ask what the concerns are, sometimes you are astounded by the answers because it's not anything your brain could have come up with in a million years. And that's the beauty of an organization. We have all these people who are thinking differently and bringing those ideas to the table. But without that initiative to ask, you're never going to know what those concerns are or how to address them. So that's really important. Important. Thanks for sharing that.

Yeah. I think the worst thing that a leader could do is, is to hide or to fake it and create a situation where people are gonna be eventually finding out what the real story was, that all along they knew that this was happening and they didn't know and it wasn't being shared, because then you've eroded trust that it never can come back. And this industry's small and reputations can precede you. So I think the key thing is if you want people to really respect and honor you as a leader, be real with them. Be. You know, authentic is an overused term, but it's. It's overused because it's really. Because it's an important one. We have to be authentic with people because if you're not being authentic with them, then they're going to find that out in the. In the long run.

I think that was the word of the year last year. Authentic.

Rightfully so. Yeah.

Yeah. So leadership is changing right now. The landscape of leadership, I think, partly due to how readily available information is how we disseminate information, the technologies that are rolling out at a rapid pace. What do you view as the future of leadership and how to. How do leaders need to start to think about meeting those demands and getting ready.

If I were to think about the three skills that. That a leader really needs to tap into and get better at, I would say number one is communication, because technology is advancing at such a rapid pace. In fact, this is not just for the senior leaders. It's pretty much for everyone. We have to get really good at communicating because we're going to be using AI a lot more throughout our organization, and that's going to require us to communicate well with tools. Our tools are going to be asking us to talk to them and. And communicate them in written form and verbally. So communicating is going to be like, the number one most important thing you can do, and doing it in a way that connects with people on a very deep level. So communication is number one. Number two is the ability to adapt. If you're too rigid in the way that you're doing things, you're never going to survive. As you said earlier, change is like happening at a breakneck speed. And it's. You know, it's funny, I do this talk about how change used to happen over an extended period of time. When you think about, like, the printing press, okay, printing and books took a long time before they actually became real. And they became like, you know, eponymous or everywhere. But now, like, a tweet can set off like a massive movement. You know, AI moves, you know, changes daily, you know, and that's where we're at. Change happens so rapidly, and it also has such a big impact. One change can impact, like, you know, economically, politically, you name it. It's really amazing how much impact we have. So now that our rant is over on change, I'll come back to the fact that we as leaders need to be able to be attuned and adapt to those changes as they come.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. It is. It is shocking. I subscribed to some AI newsletters, and it's like, oh, how do you keep up? I mean, it's so fascinating. I'm a technophile. I love it, but it's. It's a lot. And then to think about how you keep your organization healthy, safe, moving forward in the face of all, that's a lot to think about. It's overwhelming. So I want to change gears and talk a little bit about something that I noticed in your background. So you are involved in the design museum everywhere. Yes, as an experienced designer. First of all, I want to know what an experienced designer does. That's an amazing. And second, I want to know how you actually incorporate that into your coaching, your leadership coaching. Because I feel like that designing, like, design principles and things like that, bringing that into leadership, that could be useful. Maybe I'm wrong.

One of the things that I've always been lit up by, as you know, from the earlier days when I was talking about art and architecture. I have always had this like connection with the idea of how we design our space can create a big difference. But then I started to get into this idea of how we design our experiences. And design thinking was something that I connected with very deeply. I've been certified as a design thinker, which is really cool. And then as I got into this field of leadership development, I started to create courses and programs that bring a lot of these elements into the work that I do. In fact, one of my programs is an art based program that allows people to get really experiential in their work by incorporating elements of art and seeing things differently. So I think the key thing for me around being experienced designer is about really thinking through ways to get people out of their normal course and think about ways to, to elevate their thinking. And the reason why I got involved with Design Museum Everywhere is not just because I love design, but because I love their mission. I'm actually really passionate about this idea of social impact through design. And that's what they're all about. They're. They're creating opportunities for us to make an impact through designing things that allow other people to, to interact with design. And that includes people with disabilities, people who are different thinkers, having the ability to, to see how they can be participating in our world.

How do you see that being adopted by the biotech crowd? Are you making any traction there?

I would say there's still a long ways to go. I mean it's. But I think that's the mission is to continue to find inroads to different companies and ways for them to get involved. And that's pseudo my mission of really to kind of use some of the thinking from Design Museum Everywhere and, and help them to engage with that community. So more to, more to come.

I'm excited to see it. It. It looks really interesting and I would love to be in one of those experiences at some point. So count me in next time. So you have a book and it sounds really interesting. Will you tell people about what that is and how they might be able to use it in their own careers?

Yes. So Campfire Lessons for Leadership was this book that came from the, the work that I was doing on my podcast, the Virtual Campfire. And what I wanted to do is create a way for people to connect with their own stories, the ways of understanding themselves so that it could help them to, to use it as a force of change for themselves and then ultimately for others. At the core of it all, it's really about connecting better with ourselves. So we can connect better with others. And when I thought about this whole. This concept of. Of looking back, propelling you forward. There's a lot of parts of our stories that we often ignore. Like, you may think for me, like me being a finance person, that I'd be, like, running as far away as possible from being finance. But I like to embrace it. I like to think of it as just part of me. It's an identity that I hold onto, but also that I have other identities and parts of me that I want to own and embrace. And I will say, just as a hat tip, Bob Coughlin is featured in my book who's the former head of MassBio. And his story is just remarkable. It tells a story of how he got into biotech from being a politician.

We connect with stories, other people's stories, our own stories. I love that.

Yeah. One of the concepts in the virtual campfire that is really interesting is this idea that it's uncovering what's called flashpoints. And people were like, what is a flashpoint? Well, flashpoint is really this moment in your life that has ignited your gifts into the world. And if you've ever done, like, exercise of looking at your timeline of your life, sometimes we only focus on the negatives, or we look at, like, those down points and say, like, oh, yeah, like, I've navigating the death of loved one or, you know, overcoming cancer, things like that. Which is not a negative, actually. It's a positive. But it's not just about the moment itself, but it's the what it's done for you, you know, what is the gift that it's given you. And I think that is really the beautiful thing about thinking about the flashlight is this moment that has ignited you. When I ask it on the podcast, it's really about having people to, you know, really understand what are those moments and. And kind of explore it, talk about it, and then we look at the themes that are showing up. So it is the learnings that are coming out of those moments that have really propelled them into the work. And sometimes those moments that they mention, you know, reveal what they're doing now. You know, I've. I've had people come on. This woman that. I always remember her story. She was iron. Iron Annie. What was her name? She's an iron woman. Did all these. These triathlons and what have you. And she was on the verge of suicide, and she went into a psych ward, and they called her psych Ward Annie. And it was really sad because, like, she was Just this. She was the strong friend. And now all of a sudden, here she is going through a very dark moment. And it was brought on by a couple, you know, an incident with her son. Long story short, she survived all this dark, these dark moments. And now her work is about helping others to, to feel not alone, to, to deal with suicide ideation. And so I think that is something that, you know, you see that if she had never gone through that moment, she wouldn't be there for the people who need her now.

Yeah, that's powerful. Well, we will link the podcast in the show notes too. We have so many good things to put in the show notes. So definitely, if you're listening to this, check that out. If you're watching on YouTube, check that out both places. And what do you hope to do and achieve in the next 10 years?

Well, I, I would say the first thing is I would like to see more leaders who are connected to their purpose and really connected their purpose, because I think when they do, it has an impact on everyone around them. And I, I know you may think, well, aren't we there yet? Well, no, we're not. You know, someone asked me recently, like, how many people in the world do you think really, truly know their purpose? And I would venture to guess it's less than a quarter of the world. That's not enough.

Interesting. Yeah, I think too, in the biotech space, which is the space I know best, people come out of degrees, very long degrees, and they emerge. I think I finished my PhD. I think I was 29, you know, so not young anymore. And then you just kind of move forward with your life without having that ability to maybe do some of the trial and error that many other people do in their younger twenties, finding some purpose. And I. We're also not taught the fundamentals of leadership.

Yes.

And it's, it's surprising to me because after founding a company and realizing I needed to be a better leader, I needed help. I've sought out a lot of executive coaching. I've pretty much consistently had a coach over the past ten years. Um, but I don't hear that from my clients. I don't see especially younger founders, newer founders embracing that. So I think a message here that I would like the audience to, to listen to, to really hear, is that this exists and it is powerful. This, this is available to you if you are struggling, if you're feeling like this is hard, why is this so hard? Yeah, there are resources like Tony available to be, to be there to help you stay grounded, to Help you develop your leadership skills, to help your team develop skills sometimes too, you will hire a great team, but they're not always, you know, they've come from the same background. You have a lot of academics. Yeah, that's my, that's my plug at the end is that I really want people to hear that.

I really love that you shared that and so honored that you bring that to the space. And, you know, I'll just add that it's like that is there is a sense of getting out of the box and not just listening to the same people over and over again, but like exploring other voices, because that is where you get to hear something different. If you're only listening to yourself, that's not going to help. It's always good to have other people on the journey to help you to, to explore. What am I missing?

All right, what is your favorite book that you might recommend to people? It could be fiction, nonfiction, whatever.

One of my all time favorites is the Art of Possibility by Benjamin Zander and Rosamund Rosamund Zander. And it is just the most amazing book. Benjamin Zander is actually one of the conductors of the Youth Philharmonic, the Boston Youth Philharmonic, something like that, basically. Conductor. And he's, he's just full of so many great insights about unlocking possibilities by seeing things a little differently. And it just gets me to think about how oftentimes the obstacles in our lives are, are just, you know, we think, oh, we've got this big obstacle, what do we do with it? And he gets us to see the possibilities and to, to move it into an opportunity. Um, one of the exercises he talks about is this idea that when you come across a mistake or you make a mistake and you know, he talks about it as students, he how can you turn it into a moment of learning? And he says, isn't that fantastic when you make a mistake? Yeah, like celebrating a mistake in that way is just so fantastic.

Thank you. That's a great recommendation. I'll definitely check it out and I'm sure other people will too. Um, so we have talked about a lot of different resources. We're gonna link to your LinkedIn in the show notes, your website, all of that good stuff. Is there any place else people should reach out to you if they want to continue the conversation?

Well, website, LinkedIn. Those are the best places for me. And obviously you can find my podcast, all types of fun things in the. On my website. So.

Yeah, perfect. Well, this was a pleasure. I really enjoyed the conversation and I hope people get a lot out of it.

Likewise. This is a great conversation. Thank you so much for having me on the show.

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