163 - Courage to Leap & Lead with with Dr. Jennifer Nash - part 2

You've got courage to leap, courage to lead.

Be brave and be bold. Let it roar.

Welcome to the Courage to Leap and Lead podcast, where each of our guests share the stories of courage that helped them become powerful leaders. Before we start today's show, please remember to visit courage-consulting.com. Where you can find all the episodes and other excellent resources, all at courage-consulting.com. Now, here's your host, Leadership Courage Coach CB Bowman.

Hello, everybody. You know, I was having such an amazing discussion with Dr. Jennifer Nash. Who's my guest for today and was my guest for part 1. This is part 2 of my interview. This woman is fascinating, talking about her book, Being Human— Be Human, Lead Human. But we didn't have a chance— and her concepts about this— but we didn't have a chance to find out about Jennifer. So, So we're going to rock this out and find out about Jennifer and how she's had the courage to not only write her book but to wheel and deal in corporate America and what made her leave corporate America and what did she have to face and what did she have to do. And you know the whole thing, we get to the bottom line here. So welcome back, Jennifer. Thank you, CB.

I'm excited for the second part of our conversation.

So thank you. Okay, now let's go back to Jennifer, as a little girl, what do you want to tell us?

Oh my gosh! As a little girl, well, I think like all little girls, you know, I wanted to be a ballerina, and I wanted to be a concert pianist.

Whoa! Okay.

Yeah.

What happened on that road?

Well, wait. First, first, first.

Tell us about your mom and dad. What did they do?

Yeah, so my mom was a teacher in the first part of her career, and then she and my dad had agreed that she would stay home to raise myself and my siblings. And so she took an extended break for a while.

How many siblings?

3 more.

Okay, wow, big family. Yeah.

And then she started working part-time again teaching. Um, and then she ended her career as the principal of a Catholic school in Michigan. Wow.

Okay.

Yeah, so that was my mom's background. And my dad's background, um, he was actually a, um, I'll just say that he was an agent for the state of Michigan.

Mm-hmm. Okay, secret. Okay. All right, well, this, this tells us a lot about Jennifer, and your interest in researching and finding facts out about humans and how they operate and how they lead. So go from there. What happened on the road to being a pianist?

Well, I, I started playing piano when I was 3. My mom was teaching me, um, and then I was fortunate enough to be able to take lessons, um, So I took lessons until I was in high school. And then when I was in high school, I was putting myself through college. And so I didn't have money to continue lessons after that. And so it's always remained a hobby of mine. I love playing. But as far as the concert pianist route went, It wasn't, it wasn't, um, wasn't a viable option. Yeah.

And so what did you do to put yourself through college?

Oh my gosh, I worked so much, CB. I was working more than I had time to study. So I, I worked as a, um, a courtesy clerk in a grocery store. Um, I worked as a waitress at a country club. Um, I worked on a paper route. I babysat. I worked in the language lab at the community college that I was at. I worked as a teaching assistant. I've just— I taught adult community education. I've really spent a lot of time during those years working when I wish I would have had the opportunity to just be a student and study.

But you were a student. And that is life.

I, I was, I was just not full-time, you know. I didn't have— that wasn't an option for me.

Yeah, but the experience that you got in those jobs that you had was an education in itself.

Oh, 100%, you know. I learned so many different things, you know, from those jobs, um, you know. And one of my first jobs in the professional, you know, in corporate, um, was actually working on a customer support help desk for one of the automotive companies. And speaking French with the French-Canadian dealers and speaking Spanish with the Mexican dealers. Car dealers, I should probably qualify that.

I'm so envious that you could speak more than one language. Wow.

Yeah, yeah, that was actually what got me those jobs was my language ability. And so I was fortunate in that respect. And from there, I just, you know, I learned, I think, from, you know, those years in customer support that it was so important that people feel heard. Right. And people feel listened to, and people felt that their concern was understood and that it mattered, you know. And for someone to be on the front line, you know, talking with that person, you know, there was a lot of tangible and intangible value, you know, to that type of arrangement. And when I look at now what like customer service and help desks have evolved into, it's a chatbot. And you can't get a human being on the line to save your life.

Much worse than that. Um, I have a favorite doctor, and his, um, the medical facility was bought out by Walmart— Walgreens. So he moved over, and it used to be— he had a fabulous assistant. It used to be So wonderful. Recently, my husband wasn't feeling well. He had some kind of cold, and so I wanted him to go in and see him before he left for a trip. I called to make an appointment. Jennifer, I got somebody in India.

Oh yeah, yeah.

Who then said, is this urgent? And I said yes. And he said, well, the doctor could see you in 2 weeks. I said, that's not going to work. He said, well, you could see his physician assistant in a week. And I said, that's not going to work. And he said, well, you can always just walk up, fill out a request online. I said, the online request is not working. He said, well, you can always just pop in and get an appointment. And I'm thinking, so you can't get an urgent appointment, but you can pop in and get an appointment. So we popped in to get an appointment, and that was 4 days from the day. I'm like, okay, this is not great customer service.

Right.

It's called Village Medical for the medical field.

Mm-hmm.

Um, how does this work? And that's where we've gotten to.

Mm-hmm.

So I completely am in your camp about good customer service. It's gone. I think the only stores that are left that have good customer service— Apple And Costco.

Yeah, I agree. I you know I would add I was at Nordstrom recently.

Oh yes.

They actually I was surprised. I went in. I had something to return, and they someone greeted me when I got to that department. They took me right back to you know the the register to you know handle the return, and you know it was a very. personal experience, I was, I was a little shocked by that. I haven't experienced that in a while.

I did forget Nordstrom's because we don't have one that's local here. Yeah, you have to go all the way down south in Colorado. But you're right, Nordstrom has maintained good customer service. But, but my point being is there's so few and far between that it's just You know what? I'm at the point now where I just prefer to shop on Amazon.

Yeah, I, I, they have the best selection, honestly.

You don't have to go from store to store, use up gas. They have great return policy. And, and so I, here's a fun story. I was at the National Speakers Association conference. Oh, every time I touch, the light goes off. See what I mean? This is real time. And, um, there was a vendor there that was selling these shoes for speakers that you could— heels that you can speak forever and your feet won't kill you in. Okay, the ones I tried on didn't fit. I will just order a pair. And they had— they said you can return them. And they cut into the front of my foot at the top. And I, I wrote to them. I said, is there anything I could do? She said, well, what I do is I put water on it and it stretches out. So I'm thinking, so that means you've had problems with the same shoes. So I wrote and I said, well, if I put water on it and it doesn't work, can I return them? And the answer was no.

Hmm.

And I thought, and these shoes were like $200.

Yeah.

Well, I don't know if I wanna risk that. So I said, well, I know you'll be at the next conference. Why don't I just return these? 'Cause the return policy was very short. And I returned them. But what they neglected to tell you is that you have to pay for returns. So it cost me $35 to return these shoes. And she said, well, you know what? You can try us at the next conference. And I thought, no. Instead, I just started ordering shoes from Amazon, and those that fit, I will keep. Those that don't, I will just return.

Yeah, yeah. I, you know, I have, I have a lot of trouble finding shoes, and I do a lot on Zappos because they're great with the return policy as well.

Yes.

And great customer service.

Okay.

You know what I really like? Even though I don't like their automated system, when you call in, you can press 5 to get a joke of the day. And then, like, it makes you laugh because, like, oh, I got this joke and you're usually pretty funny. And then you forget that you're annoyed that you're on this hold with this system that's automated, and then you get a person.

I love it. Okay, I'm trying Zappos next.

Yeah, I like Zappos with their joke of the day.

Okay, now that we did some girl stuff, tell me, um, you decided to— you paid your way through school. Yeah. Um, you went into corporate America after school?

I did.

What was that like for you, and what did you do in corporate America? I, I love the expression on your face.

My— because it took me— your question just took me right back to when I started working in like corporate America coming out of undergrad, you know, after graduation. And, and I just like, in my world, like September always meant that it was the start of a new academic year. Exciting! I get to go back to school. I am so excited. Like, I love school, right? Like, I would have been in school life My entire life if I could, and so for me, like I'm sitting there and I just kept thinking like this just doesn't feel right. I should be back in school. Like this is so strange, and it took me actually a couple years to get over that feeling of like I'm not in the right place. Like this just feels odd, and so when I got into the you know corporate world, you know like we talked about earlier, I had this background in music. I had this background in dance. I had this background in foreign.

Yeah.

Yeah. And so I get into the business world, and these people are talking about like stuff in sports terminology, and I don't understand anything, and they're acting weird, and I can't figure out why they're behaving like they are, you know. So I become the behavioral scientist at that point, you know, well before my PhD years, right? And I am just observing everybody. I am trying to figure out like What are these cultural rules? What is going on here? And how can I figure this out? How can I adapt these like unwritten cultural rules and figure out what's okay and what's not okay? And what I should do and what I shouldn't do? And it was just, it was a bunch of learning in that way. Like, just, I felt like I'd been dropped into Mars and was trying to figure out like, what this was, what this was. That was my introduction to—

yeah. I came out of the interior design world into corporate America, so we— I mean, yeah, I spoke to my mom. We were in a meeting one day and some guy disagreed with what was being said, and all of a sudden he said, I've decided to revisit my answer. And I said, Mom, what kind of language is that?

Yeah, it was like I mean I was so good with all my foreign languages, right? And this was literally like a foreign language, but I but it was my native tongue, and I couldn't figure out why it sounded so foreign.

Love that.

Yeah, so that that's what it was like for me to to go into corporate, and you know quite honestly like. And I don't know if it was just because of the type of background that I'd had, you know, before that, but I never— CB, I just never felt like I fit in corporate. Like, through the whole 25 years, I served my time. Like, I just never felt like I fit.

I love that, I served my time.

Yeah. And, you know, so I— anyway, I don't want to jump ahead because I'm sure you have other questions, but yeah, I just— I felt like a square peg in a round hole all the time.

So what did— without naming the company, because we don't want to get into trouble— what did you do in corporate America? And I'm dying here. I need the tissues.

Well, for the first part of my career, I worked, believe it or not, in IT.

That's even worse. I know.

Me and IT was like— it's sort of an oxymoron. But I did. And I ended up like, you know, working my way up through the levels of customer support where I was like the, you know, the final help desk before it went over to the developers and the coders to like fix problems.

Uh-huh.

But it was interesting in that respect because what I loved about that part of the job was I got to build relationships with people, you know, and I got to talk to people in different cultures and different countries. And I loved that because like, oh, tell me about your story and oh, what's the experience like working here? And, you know, and so I, I really started from a very early point, you know, emphasizing how important connection was and how important communication was and helping people feel that they were heard and that they mattered. And at the same time, you know, as I went through my corporate career, you know, I found that, you know, I never really felt like I mattered. I never felt like my voice was heard. Um, and I'm sure we'll get into that later, but, but those were things that, that started out right from the beginning and they stayed with me, you know, throughout that entire time.

Well, you're a perfect example of how not to, uh, train, promote somebody. It's real, especially coming from the arts. Yeah, we're totally— the arts I consider to be a more human industry, right?

Right.

And so this unrest that you had, what did you finally do about it?

I went back to school.

Okay. All right. Yeah.

So I, you know, I worked for a while and I'm like, oh my gosh, like, there's got to be more to it than this. Um, and so I thought that, like, if I went back to school, that would help me feel differently about it. And so, I went back and I pursued my MBA.

You went full-time?

No, I was part-time. So, I was working full-time at the time and doing my MBA in the evenings. And I'll tell you, like, you know, those 4 years that I spent doing my MBA were some of the richest intellectual years that I ever had. I made amazing friends and colleagues in the cohorts that I was studying with. And I just love that. I loved those 4 years of my life. They were great. And then they graduated me and they wouldn't let me take all the classes I wanted to. So I wasn't happy about that. But, you know, so I graduated and then I decided that, you know, I needed a change from the industry that I'd been in. And so I pivoted into, oh, let's be a consultant and try this. that out. And so I decided to, you know, try my hand at being a consultant. And, you know, that was one of the, the shifts for me that took a lot of courage because I didn't know—

This was a consultant for yourself or working for somebody else?

No, I was working for somebody else. So I actually got hired away from the job I was in to become a consultant when I graduated with my MBA. Um, and so I remember, you know, that I, I actually Well, there were a few things that happened before that, but when I got hired by them full-time, I was at a client site and I was by myself and, you know, the client was asking me something and I turned around because I thought they were talking to the partner and then I turned back around and I realized, oh my gosh, there's nobody there, they're talking to me and they think I know, they think I have the answer. And so that was like my introduction to this whole idea of like, Faking it until you make it.

Yes.

And I had to develop this courage instantly that, that said, well, first of all, I also had to decide, like, am I going to tell them the truth? Or am I not going to tell them the truth? Because I didn't have the answer to what they were asking. And I had sensed that it wasn't okay for me to say I didn't have the answer. But that really didn't work well for me, like with my values, you know, like, This is a client. They're paying me a lot of money. Like, at least I can be straight with them, you know? And so I just said, look, you know, I think that's a fantastic question. I don't have the answer to it right now, but I will within 24 hours. Is it okay if I get back to you on that? And they were like, sure. And so, you know, it really, it struck me like, why are people so afraid to say like they don't know? Because if you're just honest about it and you're upfront about it, you're not hiding anything. And it's not a crime to not know, but it is a problem if you don't try to develop that knowledge or figure out the solution to their problem.

So anyway, but that was that was like I think that that is a worthy subject. You know, my husband calls me the what if wife.

Yeah.

Always ask. And yesterday he said to me, dear, am I the only one who thinks you ask a lot of questions? And I said, well, my mom used to say that. And I said, but guess what? I have a lot of answers now.

My mom did too. My mom would tell me I started asking questions when I was 2 and I haven't stopped since.

Sky blue. Oh yeah, because it's blue. No, I don't understand that answer.

Right, right.

It just occurred to me that People who don't ask questions are afraid they're going to look bad.

Yes.

And I said to myself when I was very young, I didn't care if I look bad. I want answers.

Yeah.

Um, and I'm only going to find them out if I say, I don't understand, I don't know, or why.

Mhm.

And I have never understood not having that Because when it matters and it comes down to a finite point, you can't fake answers to things you don't have the answers to, because you look so much worse than if you just said, I don't know, but I'll get back to you when I find out. Yeah. So kudos to you for being able to stand up and say, I don't know, but I'll get back to you within 24 hours. They probably were like shocked.

Yeah, they were.

That's your honesty, your values, and your integrity that all just came out with that one statement.

Yeah.

Yeah. I just hired a videographer who did the opposite of what we said. And I said to my husband, there's no way I could use him again. Because instead of saying, one, I can't afford the equipment to do this, so this is what I'm going to do, and I'm going to adjust my prices He came in with high prices, used the wrong equipment, didn't capture what he was supposed to. And now— and, and this was a situation where I was giving a young kid an opportunity.

Mm-hmm.

It's gone now. You know, I've always said, if you are in a profession and somebody's giving you an opportunity and you're not sure of your capabilities, You don't have to admit it per se, but make sure those prices reflect it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.

No, but go ahead.

I was just wondering, you know, is this, is this an opportunity maybe? Do you think that this person is open to feedback?

I don't know if they're open to it, but I'm certainly going to offer it.

Yeah. And if they're not open to the feedback, you can just give them the feedforward.

Well, I think, you know, my husband said to you, this is probably the biggest job he's ever had and he doesn't know how to handle it.

Yeah.

And I said, yeah, you're right. And I think that if you're going to go out and, and this seriously, and help somebody who's younger, who doesn't have that sort of experience level, then you have an obligation to give them feedback in a kind way, which is to say, here's what you could do differently that can make all the difference in the world.

Right.

And it was really funny because he was so bent on having a contract. And I said to him, I don't use contracts because the people I work with, I trust.

Mm-hmm.

And he kept saying, but we need a contract, we need a contract. Finally, I wrote a contract for him and he reads it and he says, I think we have to adjust this, this, and that. And I said, timeout. I wrote your contract. You want adjustments? You're very capable then of doing the adjustments yourself. And send it back to me with the alterations. Never heard a word about contracts after that.

Yeah. Yeah.

All right, young man.

Yeah.

Number one, don't ask the customer to write the contract and then edit it for you.

Right. Oh my goodness.

But I think to that point, People are afraid of giving feedback because, yeah, they're not sure how to give it in a human way. Yeah. And then we just go around and around in a circle, you know, and nobody has the opportunity to learn.

Yeah.

So, so going back to your time when you decided to work for a consultant and you manage your clients so well, What got you from there to here now?

Yes, well, I spent about a decade, you know, working in, in professional services, um, and during that time I went back to school again part-time, um, and worked on my PhD and You know, towards the end of that period, I was really thinking that, you know, maybe there's a better way that I could serve clients with what they need in a way that worked better for them and worked better for me, you know, from a human standpoint where I'm not working, you know, 100-hour weeks kind of idea and I was home a little more, you know, I didn't want to travel so much and so I decided that I would, you know, leave, you know, that position and become an entrepreneur.

That's a huge jump.

You know, it is a huge jump. And I didn't realize that at the time. I thought, oh, you know, I've got this industry thing down pat, I've got my Rolodex, I'll be fine. And that was such an arrogant way of thinking about it. And it wasn't fine. It was a completely different ballgame to be an entrepreneur. And it's been, you know, just such a journey of like learning since then for me of, you know, developing into an entrepreneur and running my own company. It's a different mindset. It's a different type of being. It's a different type of getting comfortable with risk and having that courage to not have a stable paycheck and a pension and, you know, all these things that we're taught are Oh, this is like what you do, right? You get that W-2 job, you have that pension, you retire at 62, like, you know, all of the things that are typically expected. Yeah, I just decided that wasn't really going to work for me, you know, going forward. And so I jumped into entrepreneurship and that's how we got to where we are today. You know, I'm running my own business and I wrote a book and I haven't looked back.

So Jennifer, you made it sound so easy. Let's talk about the times when it wasn't so easy.

Yeah.

Give us some examples and tell us how you got through it. So be honest, because that's what this audience is about. That's what I'm about, is finding out the true scoop of what are the trials and tribulations that you have faced in giving advice to others about how you managed it?

Yeah, you know, there were a lot of things happening when I was, you know, coming to the end of that PhD program. You know, I was wrapping up an extremely intense period of learning in my life where I was developing, you know, I was writing the dissertation, I'd wrapped up all the research. You know, and at work, you know, there were some things happening that, that didn't work well for me from my values perspective.

Like what?

I will say that there were things being asked of me that I was not comfortable doing.

And I—

Any shame?

Since you came into the company?

Yeah, I can't share that part. But what I can say is that, you know, I had worked essentially my entire life, you know, over 25 years to get to that point in my career, to have that position, to be in that role, you know. And I had, you know, from all accounts, what people would look at and say, oh, you know, she's made it, right? Like, I was in the executive ranks. I was had a 6-figure paycheck. I had a pension coming when I retired. I had, you know, full benefits. I had all of these things that, you know, we were always taught we aspire to. But I also had this feeling inside me that like, is this all that there is? You know, because for me, it was never about the money and the pension and, you know, these financial drivers of success. For me, it had always been around, am I reaching my potential? Am I being the best human being I can possibly be? Am I making a difference in the world? And am I making a positive impact? And, you know, when I would sit down and think about those things, you know, they were not— they were the answers that I didn't want to hear. They were, I wasn't reaching my potential. I was in a system that was forcing me to behave in ways that I didn't want to behave.

And so I want to spend some time on that. Not— and I apologize, audience, I keep coughing from allergies. Um, knowing— first of all, identifying what you felt was going to be your full potential.

Mm-hmm.

How did you do that? I mean, that takes a lot. To sit and say, this isn't it? Aside from your values didn't match, there had to be other things that said, you have to do more, you have to be more. What was pushing you? What was driving you? How were you recognizing that?

I was recognizing that partly because That's a great question. Partly because when I would be in meetings with the client, it was the partner driving that meeting, even though I was the one that had created all the content, I'd created all the materials, I'd done all the thinking, and it should have been me leading that meeting, not the partner. And, you know, we talked earlier about, you know, I never felt really like my voice was heard.

Right.

I never felt like my opinions mattered. And it got to a point where I just felt like if I'm going to work this hard and I'm going to put this much effort in and I'm going to do this kind of work, then maybe I should be doing that for myself so that I get the benefit of that. Not just the financial part of it, but the intrinsic benefit of knowing that I'm making a difference and I'm the one that is being heard and I'm the one that is helping this person. and change their behavior. And that was one of the factors. You know, I was tired of playing second fiddle, if you will, of being that other person at the desk who was taking notes while the other person led the meeting. And I just got to a point where that wasn't okay with me anymore.

Thank you so much for your honesty there. I was reflecting back when I was younger and having the same experience. and I didn't have the courage to do what you did. Um, and I could say because I wasn't making 6 figures, so I didn't have that security there.

Yeah.

But I think, to be brutally honest, I didn't know what was making me unhappy. I couldn't identify it. And I think by you sharing that just now, It helped me reflect back, but it helps others say, wait a second, I'm feeling the same thing. Not feeling celebrated, not feeling appreciated, being a sex figure, other people taking credit for my work. I know this uneasy feeling. You just identify what was causing it.

Yeah.

So I appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, and I, I, it was about, it was about a 9-month period where I was on this roller coaster of, do I leave, do I stay, do I leave, do I stay? How do I get comfortable with not having a steady paycheck when I've never been in that position before, right? I'd been working since I was 11 years old. So to not have a steady paycheck and not have the medical benefits and the dental benefits, like to not have all of those things in place and give up everything that I had been working for and jump into entrepreneurship, no, it wasn't easy. It's one of the toughest decisions I have ever made in my life. And I didn't know if it was going to be right for me. Honestly, I didn't know, but I did know that I had to try it because if I didn't try it, I was going to regret not trying that. And I didn't want to be in my rocking chair at 95 years old, rocking on a porch somewhere, wishing that I had taken that leap of courage to become who I knew I could be, but that I wasn't able to be in the environment that I was in.

Where is it that you were able to get the strength to say, I'm not all that I can be? Where did that strength come from?

I think it comes from a couple of places. I actually never told this story to anybody before. I was born early. I was born 3 months early. And by all accounts, I should not have survived. So I think first and foremost, there is just something in me that is wired that way, to seek and go beyond. Like, I think it's just always been there. I think the second thing that has been there is that I love to learn and I'm always curious and I'm always asking questions and I wanted to always ask way more questions than I could in the space I was in and that included myself because if here I am coaching these people as part of my job and I'm not drinking my own Kool-Aid, then how can I be an effective coach and, and there's something about that that just didn't sit right for me. And I think the third thing was that, you know, my parents, you know, I was raised in the Midwest, I was raised with typical, you know, work hard kind of values. And the interesting thing, though, as I'm mentioning that, as I'm thinking through this right now, is that even though I was raised with those values, I was also raised to not disrupt the Okay, talk about a conflict. Yeah. And so that was always a tension for me, and I think that was partly why, like, partly why it took me so long to make that decision to go from professional services into being an entrepreneur, because I had to reject what I was taught growing up, that, you know, this W— you, you get a job, you're lucky to have a job. And you're lucky to stay with that job, and that was the mindset. And so for me to just voluntarily give up this job not only required me to have courage to do that, but it also required me to think differently. It required me to let go of this belief that I had had served me well up until that point in my life, but it wasn't going to serve me going forward. And I have always felt intrinsically. That we are each here, and we each have a purpose, and our job is to figure out what that purpose is, and why we're here, and how we're meant to contribute to make the world a better place. And in the role I was in, in the work that I was doing, it did not have as big of an impact as I was satisfied with. And so I think for me, when I you know kept going on this roller coaster and figuring out like these pros and cons. The pros eventually outweighed the cons, and at the end of the day, I had to say, do I have enough courage in myself to believe in myself that I can be successful as an entrepreneur, never having done that before? Because if I don't believe in myself, then the potential clients that want to hire me won't believe in me either. And then that'll be, you know, the, the, the— it'll be reinforcing that, that, that I'm not saying that part very well. I can't think of the phrase there. Like it's a reinforcing belief that if you, like Henry Ford said, whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're right. And so I ended up, I chose to leave. It was not well received. That was a very difficult conversation.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I have to tell you, you know how JLo goes, you've given me the goosies?

Yeah.

Wow. Okay. I didn't have the courage you had. Wow.

Well, when I see you, CB, I see like someone so courageous. I would never know that.

I didn't. I just kept— I kept letting the corporate abuse abuse me.

Yeah.

Until it got to the point where I said enough, and I fought back with full strength and full power. But Jennifer, Okay. What was it like when you walked into the office and said, I'm out?

I was terrified. I was absolutely terrified because I was afraid of the person that I reported to.

Holy crap.

And I knew that this was not going to go over well. I knew that it was going to be exceptionally uncomfortable, you know, because I had also given this person my word that I was going to stay until they retired. And so there were all these, you know, there were all these other factors going on, right? There were so many things converging, but it was terrifying walking into that office. And then, and in that moment, you know, I'm so I don't like conflict. I'm not a person who welcomes conflict, and I'm also not a person who—I was raised to respect authority. Remember, my my dad was an agent, so I was in a position where I had to stand up to authority, and that was it was a very very tough. Conversation, and when I walked out of that room after it was done, you know my first reaction was relief. It's over, and my second reaction was I am really freaking proud of myself right now because this person showed that they didn't respect me. And I stood up to them. And in that moment, I knew that no matter how hard this journey as an entrepreneur was going to be, that I will get through it and I will make it work because I never, ever, ever want to go back to feeling like I did with someone who doesn't respect me and disrespected a relationship.

When you were walking down the hall to go into this person's office, what was on your mind? What gave you the courage to put one foot in front of the other and walk in and sit down?

Because the pain of staying in that situation was greater than the pain of changing and finding the courage to do what I wanted to do.

Did you rehearse this, what you were going to say? Did you have notes?

I didn't have notes. I've never been somebody that can like memorize stuff and work well that way, so I, I didn't have notes. I thought about what I wanted to say and I thought about, you know, how would this person react when I had this conversation with them? What were some of the questions they may ask? Knowing that they were going to get angry and, you know, maybe default to some bullying behaviors, I had to figure out how was I going to handle that. So just trying to think through and anticipate what would happen during the conversation so I could prepare myself. I think one of the things that helped keep me grounded was, you know, meditating before I walked in and finding that center for myself so that I could maintain my emotional equanimity because I did not want to cry in that meeting and I did not want to yell in that meeting. And so I felt like me being able to maintain those boundaries and keep myself centered and grounded was the best thing I could do before I walked into the meeting.

Did you have a conversation with your parents, your significant other, your, your minister? Did you talk to anybody before?

I did. I, um, I had been— so I had just met someone, uh, in my life. And so, um, one of the places that I love most in the world, um, is being next to water. And that's my happy place. And so this person and I, who's now my husband, went to, you know, went to the lake and we sat on a bench under a tree on a really sunny day overlooking the lake and I just, I let out all the emotions that I had, you know, I just was crying or, you know, whatever it was, yelling and just working through all those emotions so that I could get them out And then talk about this in a more rational way. So I could feel the feels and then figure out how I was going to approach it and what I was going to do. And so, you know, having those conversations and sharing that in that way in a safe space with someone who was a neutral third party at that time helped me gain some clarity, you know, on number one, what it was that I really wanted to do. Number two, why was I doing it? And number three, That, you know, this, this emotional labor that I was going through to stay there when my values weren't aligning with what was going on, um, ultimately showed me like this pain of staying is much greater than the pain of— than the pain of, of changing and finding that courage to leave.

Wow, Jennifer, we share so much in common. We'll have to talk. Wow. Okay, I don't even know what to say next because you've absolutely blown my mind. And, and this person in the meeting did all the bad behavior that they thought they were gonna— that they were gonna do?

Um, not all of it, but some of it.

Yeah. And so the next morning when you woke up, jobless?

Yeah. For the first time in my life, actually.

Yeah?

Yeah.

What went through your mind? Did you say, was I crazy? Did you say, yay? Did you say, okay, what next? Or all of the above?

Um, well, I had actually booked a trip to Boulder for that weekend. And so I woke up and I'm like, I am free. I am freaking going on vacation for a couple days. And so I went on vacation for a few days.

My neck of the woods.

Yeah, in Boulder. I'd never been to Boulder, you know, so it was a new— it was new, right? And that was the point. Like, I just wanted to go somewhere that I didn't know and have an experience that was brand new for me and be able to look at it through A different mindset and a different lens and a different perspective. Um, and Boulder was beautiful. Boulder—

Did you go by yourself?

No, the, the friend at the time went with me. Yeah, and it was, it was beautiful. I loved Boulder. Sunny, really nice laid-back vibe. Like, Boulder was cool.

Yes. Yeah.

Okay.

And then that Monday I started my business.

Hot damn. And your phone call, what did you say? What'd you do? Your first phone call?

My phone call?

Your first phone call, what'd you do? Business call.

Oh, my first business call. Oh, sorry, I was like, well, what phone call? Um, I, uh, my first phone call, um, I was having just phone calls with people to let them know that I had left professional services of my own accord, and I was, you know, running my own business now. And, you know, just wanted to continue staying in touch and building that relationship. And people were just so like, they were so happy and supportive for me and of me that, you know, I had made that shift. And I actually had a few people tell me You know, it took you so long. Yes. And they were like, oh, I've always seen you as an entrepreneur. I can't believe that you stayed in industry and professional services that long. And I was like, wow, really? Like, you saw me that way? Yeah, absolutely. I can't believe that you never were an entrepreneur from the start. And so like, CB, hearing that feedback was just so— it was affirming for me. Yes, number one. Um, and then number two was like, oh my gosh, like I guess I haven't asked enough questions because I wasn't aware of that about myself. Okay, let me think back on that. Let me start reflecting.

Then how long was it after that you got that you got your first client?

Uh, it was three months after that that I got my first client.

Wow, that's short. Yeah, and I was so oh my gosh, C.V.

I was so stoked. When I got that first client. And it wasn't the money. It was the fact that they believed in me enough to hire me and they trusted me. And that meant the world to me. And it was just, it was an amazing feeling. And I'm still in touch with that person today.

Were you nervous?

I was nervous. Yeah. Because I was like, oh my gosh, like, and I felt like I was back being a consultant in that very first day in the You know, who are they talking to? Oh yeah, it's me. Oh, okay, I'm gonna fake it till I make it. And so yeah, to this day, that person doesn't know that they were my first client. And I won't ever tell them that.

No, we won't.

No. But yeah, it was just, it was so liberating. And then it was like, yes, I can do this. You know, I can support myself and make a living and be successful as an entrepreneur. Um, and even though it isn't a path that maybe, you know, certain people in my life approved of, um, it's the path that has been right for me.

And about that part, about certain people not approving of it, yeah, how'd you push forward through that?

Yeah, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's always When you grow up, the people that surround you are the people that care about you and love— supposed to care about you and love you. And they instead—

I'm glad you added that supposed.

Right, because it's not— that's not always true for everyone. And I was fortunate that I had, you know, adults in my life that cared about me, that supported me, that loved me, you know, that wanted me to be happy and wanted the best for me. It was always very clear to me when I made decisions that they didn't agree with. And this particular decision of me choosing to become an entrepreneur was something that my parents in particular didn't agree with because for them the safety versus risk aspect of this was too great for them. They have a very low tolerance for risk and so for me I have a much higher tolerance for risk than they do and so, you know, we were at odds about that and You know, today now it's been 5 years, right? This is my 5th year in business. I, yes, I'm so excited about that and so grateful for that. And so I can look back now and say, look, you know, this may not have been the decision that you agreed with, that you thought was best for me at the time, but to the degree that you could support me in that, I'm grateful for that. And at this point, 5 years in, if I haven't convinced you of it, then there's nothing I can do to convince you. And I just have to let that go and move on.

Yeah, I love that. I love that story. You know, I mean, the reality is they're worried about their baby girl, you know, if they're not around to protect her and everything that can go wrong and everything like that. But I love how you phrased, I have to let it go, because you know where they're coming from, a place of love, right? And it's just, it's different. It's a different generation. It's your parents. It's all that Stuff. Exactly. Say it's okay. It's all right. I hope it's all right.

Yep. Yep. And you know, and I always knew like if it didn't work or if it didn't work out or I didn't like it or I didn't want to do it anymore, I could always go back to that you know W two job. So for me, like it didn't seem like it was a you know a place where I didn't have any other options.

Jennifer, I hate to even end this conversation because this part you have shared for our audience who may be dealing with decision maker making, maybe just dealing with— I'm so choked up— dealing with pain in their lives and not clear on where it's coming from. Yes, you had the financial means to do this, and you are a white redheaded woman.

Yeah.

But what I loved about what you said is even with those privileges, you still had to do it by yourself. You still had struggles. you still had internal decisions to make. You still had to go against your parents. You had to believe in yourself.

Mm-hmm.

And I think that is so valuable. Regardless of your skin color, your sex, your sexual persuasion, you must take every ounce of courage you can muster And believe in yourself and know that there's choices in the choice that you make that's very difficult. There are choices within that. So thank you so much, Jennifer. It's been an amazing interview.

Well, thank you so much, CB, for sharing this time and inviting me on the podcast and I just, I always love our conversations. So thank you so much for a great conversation today.

Thank you. And before we go, can you show us your book?

Oh, sure. Um, yeah, did I throw you off? Yes, it caught me off a little bit. Yeah, so here's my book right here, Be Human, Lead Human.

And if you're not sure what that's about, Then you have to listen to part 1 of this interview and then come back and listen to part 2 again. Thank you, Jennifer. We appreciate you. We appreciate your honesty. We appreciate your values in life. Thank you.

Thank you, CB.

Audience, I, I've got the goosies still from listening to this. Talking to Jennifer. I hope it has affected you in the same deep way that this conversation has affected me. Go with speed, go with success, and go with belief in yourself. See you next week. Bye now. This is CB at Courage to Leap and Lead.