170 - Courage to Leap & Lead with with Jennifer Fondrevay, part 2

You've got courage to leap, courage to lead.

Be brave and be bold. Whoa, let it roar.

Welcome to the Courage to Leap and Lead podcast, where each of our guests share the stories of courage that helped them become powerful leaders. Before we start today's show, please remember to visit courage-consulting.com. Where you can find all the episodes and other excellent resources, all at courage-consulting.com. Now, here's your host, Leadership Courage Coach CB Bowman.

Jennifer, welcome back. Audience, I am talking to my friend, my new friend, Jennifer, who is a powerhouse. And we're talking about now, how do you deal with fear so that it doesn't stop you but propels you to go forward? And Jennifer was just talking about some new experiences that she has and how it— the fear doesn't stop her. This to me is amazing. So Jennifer, when you When you— I don't even think you become fearful from the way you say things. Well, let me—

I feel like, because I feel it's important to share a story about a fearful moment that I had that actually the fear propelled me to do what I am doing now. Um, and I, it was the summer of 2017. I was 2 years into researching my book. I had not yet decided to pursue a business. I was still interviewing to be a CMO, a chief marketing officer. And I thought at the time I was just gonna research the book, get the book done, and then publish it and, and see what happened. That's really, now, now when I think about it, that sounds very naive, but that's how I was looking at it. Uh, and during that summer, I thought I had breast cancer. I had, I had gone in for a mammogram and they were seeing something and I had to keep going in for tests. And the fear that I had at that moment was, oh my gosh, if this, if this is cancerous and this turns into something more, I will— the first thought that I had was I will be very disappointed in myself. That I didn't achieve more, that I didn't, that I, because I'd had CEOs asking me at the time when I was interviewing them for the book, well, what are you doing besides the book? And I kept saying, uh, you know, very cheekily, well, do you know how hard it is to write a book? Like, I was just, I was just writing the book. I, I didn't have a, a big plan at the time. Right. But that summer, I, I just, I remember I was waiting for results. And I remember thinking, what will my legacy be at this point? And I was very proud at the time. So don't get me wrong, I'd worked very hard to get to a CMO level. But at that moment, I thought, is that what I want to have written about me? Well, she was a great chief marketing officer, which again is a commendable career. But I think I'd had a taste for something different because CEOs kept saying, this book that you're writing can really help leaders going through what can be one of the more traumatic events in a corporation's journey. You know, trying to bring companies together, uh, it is never easy. There is never an easy way, and everyone is different. So. That question that kept coming up with CEOs, plus the breast cancer scare, the fear of thinking I wouldn't have done more with my life propelled me to pivot in a dramatic way. I mean, I literally, I gave up a corporate career to start. I wouldn't even say start at zero, like at negative 10, because again, as I said, I was trudging into the finance world where I didn't necessarily have a facility But I thought I could bring value, a different perspective, and a needed perspective that I thought my finance colleagues would benefit from. And so, you know, that gave me the courage. How did you get the guts to walk into this space? I leaned into my skill set, marketing. I talked about the stuff that people don't talk about. I highlighted the— Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

I wanna know how you made your first call, and then I wanna go back to talking about this fear. How did you pick up the phone not knowing ABC or XYZ about finance? You knew ABC about marketing and what was missing. How do you— what, what in the world was your first conversation?

So what helped is I went in blind. You know, it's kind of like, well, this will be for the women in the audience, right? You know, if you knew how painful pregnancy and giving birth would, no one would have children, right?

Right.

So I didn't really research too much. I didn't realize how much I didn't know in terms of, you know, the financial piece of it. I just knew from an executive, right? I'd had P&L, I knew EBITDA, I know how to run a business. I've run budgets, so I had that expertise, but I, I went to, um, conferences and trade shows and events where dealmakers were, and I listened and I learned their language, and I began to introduce my language, my philosophy. And fortunately, through learning how they talked and what motivated them, I could, I could then position what I was doing in their language, right? So, uh, I could say, right, you want to avoid high turnover, uh, you want to retain your top talent, you want to maintain productivity, you know, all the terminology that's important to a business and how it runs. So for me, because you're right, cold calling, I would have, I would have suffered miserably. I had to get out. and go to conferences and trade shows and be in that ecosystem, if you will. And I'd say have the courage to unlearn, you know, unlearn or let go of my view of it and learn how they— the lens at which they looked at mergers and acquisitions and business to then say, okay, here's how I need to frame What I think is important to business success so that they will listen. That—

what you just said, Jennifer, is worth gold. It's a gold bullion of, of information. Thank you so much.

Again, CB, we're, we're both speaking the same language. This comes from a lot of not doing it right the first You learn over time. You just got to keep at it.

Yeah, but wow.

Oh, thank you. Yeah, I feel like you're building me up. I'm just weak. Let's talk 3 hours. I could use that.

Okay, so skipping back to dealing with breast cancer and Then having the nerve and the audacity to quit your job while you're going through this and walk into something new. What the heck?

I give— here's where I give a lot of credit to my husband, who, by the way, and this is for both men and women, I wrote a post about this once. Whatever you do in life, Pick the right partner because you know I even think wedding vows should be rewritten, right? Oh yeah, you want beyond on the same page.

Oh my God!

Beyond the to have and to hold through sickness and in health. I think the wedding vows should include you know through layoffs and lateral moves, from relocations to demotions, right? That would be a better picture of what your partnership will go through in life's journey.

And surprises. And we were married 2 years. My husband was diagnosed with metastatic prostate cancer.

Wow. Yeah.

Yeah.

So you, you know, right? There's, there's no— you can never anticipate everything that's going to come your way. So you want to make sure you, you have a partner who is ready to dance.

Yeah.

So anyway, but the reason why I highlight my partner Greg is I said to him, okay, so if I do this, because he was very encouraging. I actually think he was delusional. He was like, you need to do this. You were born to do this. And I was like, let's just be clear. Like, we're not just going to tighten the belt. We got to go down pant sizes. If I do this? And, uh, you know, he said to me, um, we'll make it work, right? You need— you need— you will regret if you don't pursue this and see what's possible. Um, and so I, I thank him and curse him on a daily basis for those initial, uh, encouraging words. But he was— he was right. He was right. I was meant to do it. I just didn't know it at the time.

Yes.

Yes.

So go ahead.

So this is like a Robert Ludlum story here.

Yeah. So, you know, once—

So wait.

Once he said that, that's, you know, that was okay, I gotta do this. And so I, I stopped interviewing for other CMO roles because I'd been straddling both. I was researching for my book and writing it, but I was also interviewing. So the combination of the breast cancer scare, CEOs saying, what are you doing besides the book? And my husband saying, you can and should do this and we'll figure it out. We'll make this work somehow, is what gave me the courage to take a leap of faith, to really say, okay. Give this, give this a try. You'll be disappointed if you, if you don't. And you know what's fascinating to me, CB, just going back to my kids, is they grew up with a mom who was always flying. You know, even when I was home, I was tired or stressed. And I, I, I don't wanna just highlight this cuz I loved my corporate career. I loved managing teams. I was successful in that arena, so I don't want to, to bash it. But I also know the version of me, had I continued on that, I would have burned out. I was on the verge of it more than once.

Yes.

And my daughter said to me once, when I said to her, um, she was a freshman in college, and I said, you know, I'm— I feel badly. You know, there's things I think we could do. We could have done more. We could have gone on more trips.

Mm-hmm.

You know, if, um, if I wasn't building my own business and, and all of that. And, and she said, Mom, when you— she said, I love this version of you. It's inspiring for me to see that you can do it at any stage. And, uh, you know, that really, uh, it hadn't dawned on me that I would be more of a role model for her in this version of me than in the earlier version where I'd hit the corporate ladder and I was moving up. You know, I thought that was a really inspiring version, but The version of me that pivoted, um, is what has inspired her more. And that was— that was— it was wonderful to hear because I didn't know that.

It's amazing how children can see your heart, your soul, and your being.

Yes, very much so.

Okay, so I don't even know what to say next because you've given us so How much time did it take for you to be successful?

I'm, I'm, I'm still on that path. Um, and, and Howard, going back to Howard, who you've mentioned before, Howard, I think, does a great job of reminding us we need to reframe what success looks like. If we let society frame what success looks like, then we're always going to think it's wealth and fame and all the trappings that come with that.

Mm-hmm.

And he has reframed for me. So I say that I'm always still working on being successful, but I have had the richness and reward of having people who have read my book who have hired me as a speaker or a consultant who have said, it's, it's thanks to you that I can, I can do this better, that I can, I can navigate this stage of my career, that I can be a better leader for my team. I had a, a man who wrote me a note, a review that said reading my book saved his marriage because his wife was working at a financial services company and they were had been acquired. And he said she was depressed and angry and he didn't know how to help her or what to say. And he had read my book. I'd met him at an event, um, and we'd gotten to know each other and he gave it to her and she wrote me a note to say, your book was invaluable. It helped me see that I wasn't going crazy. The emotions that I was feeling are normal and typical, and your guidance on how to get through this emotional rollercoaster was invaluable. Like having that Those, those stories, you know, goes in, as Howard would say, in your success pile. Now, granted, I'm also being realistic. We want to get paid. So, you know, that's— I'm not trying to sound, you know, like Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm where, you know, that's all the reward. But it's a reward for me that adds to the success in a way that's different than the success pursuit that I was on in my corporate career, which was more about just, you know, building the company and moving it forward. Now I can take personal pride in knowing I had an impact on people's lives.

2 questions. First of all, we haven't shown your book. Do you have a copy you can show everybody?

I typically do. Hold on one moment, CB. You caught me at a moment where— ah, I don't. It's in a bag in the other room. We'll have to— we'll have to show you.

No, you have to go get it. That's your penance. Go get it.

We'll wait. Okay, hold one moment, everyone.

Okay, audience, this is just an amazing interview. I hope you see part 1 so that you can continue to appreciate what an amazing woman Jennifer is. And the information she's sharing with us now, I'm going to use. So I hope that you use it also. Because fear is one devilish animal that stops us from moving forward. And Jennifer has just Brought so much information in terms of how do you handle it, and not only handle it and survive, but how do you turn that into success? So now we want to see what her book looks like. Yes.

So this is the COVID Love it.

Yes.

Our, our mutual friend Dori Clark wrote my, uh, wrote my foreword. For which I will forever be grateful. She brings such an intelligent view on such a variety of things. And so her foreword, I'm just grateful for. What I can say, CB, you know, you asked me earlier, like, how did you do it differently? How did you break into finance? So my book is illustrated. One of the sections I talk about the personalities, right? How people show up in a merger and acquisition.

Yes.

So I have some characters like, here's the former rock star, right? So this is— I'll talk a little bit about just this character so people can understand. It's not just M&A, it's about what happens to people when the metrics for success change. They change dramatically in a merger and acquisition.

Mm-hmm.

You can have someone who was a rock star, right? Maybe they were the top salesperson, or they could have been a great marketing executive, or your chief technology officer, or they could have been an up-and-comer, right? Somebody who had the ear of the CEO. But after an acquisition or a merger or any business transformation, the metrics for success change. That's— the business is going through a transformation. And so oftentimes that rock star can struggle because what made them successful isn't going to make them successful moving forward. So the, the thing that I wanted to bring to the discussion around mergers and acquisitions and business transformation is the people piece. How people behave, what drives those behaviors, how to anticipate them and be better leaders for people who are struggling with the change. And so the former rock star is just one example. So I have 10 different caricatures in here. The stages of grief. You know, I talked earlier about the woman who had all these emotions and didn't understand why. So I I talk about the stages of grief, and I talk about it through the lens of a bad breakup and how you feel. Like, first you deny it. No, I'm not breaking up with you. You're breaking up with me.

Right.

You deny that this is happening.

Yes.

And then you get angry, and then you're bargaining. No, let's get back together. And then you're depressed, and then finally you just kind of accept it. Right. So when I talk about it through the lens of that kind of journey, Uh, you know, I make this part of my speaking. I say, okay, so what, you know what helped me through really bad breakups? Music. Listening to some Frank Sinatra and Anita Baker and AC/DC and Led Zeppelin. Like songs just capture how you feel and they can help you get it through, get through that moment. And so there's a Spotify playlist that accompanies the book. Um, the people have added, have added to. So, uh, when I've had big events, That's one of the exercises we do as a— and I've had like a room of, you know, 300 people. They get so excited to share the song that they would have on their playlist. So I've— I think we're up to like 300, 500 songs on the playlist now.

I love it. And I love how you took Kubler-Ross's theory and actually used it in the business world. Yeah. Because we, as individuals, tend to think that we are not breakable.

You're right.

Especially the men. Especially the men. I get really, really perturbed when I hear women talk about men as being less than a man because they cried.

What—

where in this universe was that written?

Yeah.

It's just— and I always remember when we got married, my husband cried at our wedding. I didn't. He did. And everyone who attended, because we had it by Zoom because it was during COVID said, wow, that man loves you. And I said, oh, a different interpretation of tears, right?

Yeah, yeah.

Of course he does. What's not to love?

I check on it every day. I agree.

Right?

So, okay, how do we know—

this is a challenging question— how do we know that we are in a moment, and I put a moment there purposely, of fear? Versus a moment of lack of knowledge stopping us? How do we know when fear is the elephant in the room?

You know, it's a good question, CB, because I don't know if we do know. I'm even thinking about the times where I have been fearful. I described to you the, the situation I had where I I didn't know what the diagnosis was, so I didn't have the knowledge. You know, is this cancerous? Is this not? And and for me too, one of the things that I I talk about a lot in you know whether it's on stage or just even in one-on-ones is oftentimes through a merger and acquisition. We're, we're the change and uncertainty. We're fearful because we don't know if we will be as valued in the future, right? So we're, we're afraid to not be as valued. And so it can, we can resist that. We can stay in denial. And so for me, the fear and lack of knowledge go hand in hand. And I think for me, it was just Mm-hmm. Embrace, embracing the reality that we will never always have all of the knowledge. that we want to make a decision or to move forward. But that's okay. That's why my TEDx talk was called Embrace Uncertainty. And it took me a while to realize, because I'm a planner, I'm all, oh, I got all the research, all the data, and then I make a decision. And I have learned over time that sometimes you just got to embrace the fact that you may not have all the information, but it shouldn't keep you from moving forward. So it's a good question. I don't feel like I could distinguish the two. It's by recognizing that lack of knowledge on things, when that prompts me to be fearful, it's about just accepting that I may not have the knowledge I need, but I still got to make a decision because doing nothing is a decision in and of itself, but it's not always the right one. Yeah.

But okay, so we take fear and we look at knowledge and then we look at paralysis. So I'm building on this. How do we know that we're fooling ourselves because we have become paralyzed? We say, oh, it's just fear and I'll get over it, or it's just lack of knowledge, I'll get over it. You keep saying that and you say that and you still do nothing. Is it paralysis? Is it procrastination? What do we do to get ourselves out of it and how do we recognize it?

Well, what I do— so this is just Jennifer's journey— is, and I learned it in my, I'd say by the The 3rd acquisition. It took me a while to learn it, so let's be upfront. To focus on what I can control. Focus on—

Oh, come on, Jennifer. I hear people saying that all the time.

But here, here's, here's the extra thing. I— no, no, no. I'm gonna add the extra layer because for me, I'm same with you. I get irritated. Focus on what you can control. What do you mean by that?

Yeah.

So I identified the 3 things I felt I could control because particularly in a merger and acquisition, there is just noise. There's a lot of stuff happening, right? So for anyone who hasn't been in an M&A, I'll just say change in leadership, business transformation, anything that's happening in your company where you don't know where things are gonna net out.

Mm-hmm.

You can get caught up in the swirl of that. I say you can't get caught up in the swirl. You need to focus on what you can control. So what I, what I've done for myself, and I have people doing an exercise to say right now, write all the things that are just ticking you off, that are frustrating you, that maybe have you paralyzed because you're overwhelmed. You don't know what to do. Make that list right now. And then I say, okay, let's go back, circle on that list the things that you can directly control, and then put a little star by the things that maybe you can't directly control, but you can influence them. And then anything else that's on that list that you can't control or you can't influence, cross it out and cross it out hard. Like, I want to see scratch marks on it because those are the things that you have identified that are driving you crazy, that you're caught in the swirl, yet you can't control or influence. You got to focus on what you can. And then now you've got a list of things that are circled and starred. Now that I say, now you got to prioritize, where do you put your energy? Because the other issue You know, that going back to your comment about fear, the other thing that fear does is it saps you of energy. And so for me, prioritizing where you put your energy, right, to get out of that paralysis. If you're in a work situation, I'll say you need to meet with your boss and your coworkers. Have them help you prioritize what are the key things you need to be focused on. And I said, and as you do that, right, you got to be the bouncer of your own dance hall, which means, you know, as you prioritize, if people are adding, oh, but you don't, you miss this and you miss that, and they say, okay, if we're adding more things onto this list, then what's going off?

Hmm.

Again, it's got to be stuff that I can control or influence, but the priority is things that I can control that are important to the company or important to my boss or important to the team. Because I feel like that's the, that's the other missing link of, you know, how do I focus on what I can control? What does that look like? First, you gotta, you gotta, gotta have a list what those priorities are and be smart about that because people who are important to your future and your company have weighed in on what that priority list should look like. So that's from a very high-level CB, the focusing on what you can control. But the other part that I definitely control is getting crystal clear on my talent or talents, right? Being very clear about where I put my effort. So that goes back to helping— having people help prioritize your list for you so you aren't expending energy that's not important to the company or your team or your boss. And then your attitude, and that you can speak to probably even better than I can, right? How do you keep that positive attitude in moments where you can get— so those are the 3 things for me that are critical, right? Focusing on your talent, effort, and your attitude. Your, your TEA, as I, as I call it. Um, because I, I, I agree with you. I've been irritated in the past when people are like, well, focus on what you can control. Well, so what does that look like? Give me a roadmap.

Yeah. Do you think that we think we can control more than what we can actually control?

Absolutely.

I was, I was guilty of that for sure. I thought I couldn't control my work environment. The first merger, uh, first acquisition I went through, that's what opened my eyes to the fact that, oh, there was so much that I cannot control.

Work harder and it'll go away.

Yep. Nope. That is not a solution. I had to, I had to learn to let go. of thinking I could control things that were absolutely out of my control, which is why that exercise that I just went through—

I love that.

It was my lesson learned because I had so much stuff that was irritating me and causing me anger and, frankly, just wearing me out. I was exhausted because I was trying to control things that were not in my control.

Jennifer? I wish I knew you when my company that I was working through went through that. I was with General Foods.

Okay.

Kraft bought it.

Yeah.

And that was an absolute disaster for everyone. I mean, you walked through the halls of General Foods and it was like walking through a morgue.

Yep.

It's unfortunate. And that's what I'm trying to change.

It was— General Foods was a mammoth. They own 90% of the shelf space in any grocery store. People didn't realize all the brands that were under. And for Kraft and Philip Morris, to come in. First, it was Philip Morris, a cigarette company. We totally lost it. So it's not only just the M&A, it's who's buying you.

Mm-hmm.

You know, what are their moral standards? And I remember when I was looking for a job, I was offered a position— this is funny— by both Philip Morris and Kraft. And I said, I will never work for a cigarette company. So I went with General Foods. Who would have thought multiple years later it would be one and the same?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't anticipate those things. Again, not in your control.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Jennifer, I hate to end this interview. It's been so much fun and so much knowledge sharing. Please show your book again.

Okay. Can you see that?

Yes, that's a great picture of you with your book, by the way.

Thank you. Thank you.

What is your sequel gonna be?

You know, people keep asking me that. Um, I feel like the politician who, who answers that kind of question of, you know, when are you going to run for president, by saying, I, I just want to be a good governor right now. So right now I am focused on this book. It came out in 2019. My book launch tour was going to happen in 2020, and we all know what happened then.

Yes.

So I feel like I'm just on a perpetual book launch tour. I guess the good and the bad is that M&A continues to be huge globally. I think this year will probably be about $3 trillion worth of deals done.

Wow.

And they're, you know, the success rate hasn't improved. So there's a lot of opportunity for me to help in that regard. So, and looking forward to teaching it differently with the program that I'm working on with Thunderbird.

So I have a new title for you, Chief People Officer of Mergers and Acquisitions.

Well, here's, here's what'll make you laugh. I actually, my title is Founder and Chief Humanity Officer.

I love that even better.

I love that even better. Yeah, my husband, my husband gave that to me.

See, he is, he's really a good husband. What does he do?

He's a lawyer. So, but he's a good lawyer. He's a nice lawyer.

One of the good guys. What is his specialty?

Oh, well, litigation.

Just so, you know, I want you to recognize that normally when women interview other women, the first thing they want to know is about the husband. We're ready to end, and I thought, oh my God, ask her about her husband.

Who's been this man who's been helping you? Yeah.

Well, audience, I— the only thing I could say is get in touch with Jennifer if you are dealing with M&As in any way, as the person with the organization who's doing the purchasing, or you're being purchased and you're feeling left out in the cold as a C-suite person or any other person in the organization. Jennifer is your person.

Thank you. Thank you, CB.

It's been a blast. Thank you, audience. I'll see you next Tuesday. Bye now.