174- Courage to Leap & Lead with Dr Neryl East, part 1
Dr Neryl East, an Australian journalist-turned-communication coach, shares how a severe scoliosis operation at 17 and a shy childhood pushed her to write letters to every TV and radio station, landing her a trainee role at a top Sydney station. She spent a decade in broadcast journalism before moving into government communications, then built her own business coaching leaders on credible communication in high-pressure situations.
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You've got courage to leap, courage to lead. Be brave and be bold.
Wow!
Let it roar. Welcome to the Courage to Leap and Lead podcast, where each of our guests share the stories of courage that helped them become powerful leaders. Before we start today's show, please remember to visit courage-consulting. Where you can find all the episodes and other excellent resources, all at courage-consulting.com. Now, here's your host, Leadership Courage Coach CB Bowman.
Hello, ladies and gentlemen. It is CB here on Tuesday with Courage to Leap and Lead. And today, we have a guest from Faranda, and you'll find out more about it. Her name is Dr. Nural East. Did I pronounce your name right? You did.
Well done. Extra points.
Great, great. I hope I keep it in my head though. Now, it's a pleasure to have you on this show. We met on at the National Speakers Association and just hit it off. And it's just sad that we live so far away from each other.
I know, absolutely. And I've got to say, it's 5:30 in the morning here. So, you know, to everybody listening, if I sound a little bit croaky and, um, you know, not quite awake, secretly that's the truth. But of course, I'm, I'm, I'm here and I'm on, so you've got me.
That's awesome. Awesome. So what were you doing at NSA?
Well, I love the professional speaker tribe. I'm a professional speaker here in Australia and I'm very active in our own speakers association, Professional Speakers Australia. So it's kind of a natural thing then to attend the National Speakers Association, which is the biggest professional speaker gathering in the world. I've been a couple of times now and wasn't it an amazing event, CB? And even better that I met incredible people like you when I was there. So it was just a fabulous It was very interesting.
You know, I, I prefer a smaller intimate group because what, what was— how many people did they have? 25?
Oh, I think like hundreds and hundreds. And I kept thinking, wow, this is huge. And people are saying, no, no, no, sometimes it's even bigger than this. Where I come from, the events are a bit smaller than that.
Yeah. And when I hold a conference, it's much smaller.
Right.
And people really get to know each other. So yeah, it was, it was a bit fast-paced for me because there was no time to really chat with anybody. You had the main speaking, and then even during lunch, you had to grab your lunch real fast, try to get at the beginning of the line, and then go up to hear the sponsors speak, which they were fabulous, the sponsors speaking. So, uh, yeah, I'd like to have it A little slower.
Yeah. No, I think I'm with you. It was one of those, you had to strap yourself in, didn't you? And then it just got—
Yeah. It was like being on a jet plane, especially when you didn't know anybody. I just, you know.
That's it. I probably knew maybe 10 people among all those hundreds, but I knew plenty more when I left. So that's the main thing, isn't it?
Well, you knew 10 more than I did walking in. And Orlando, not exactly my thing. Um, not when you come from Colorado.
Yeah, right.
Yes, we're used to dryness. I could not believe the humidity there. It was insane. The sheets were wet. Let me out.
It certainly was very, very humid. Uh, but of course, I— when I was there, it was our winter in Australia, so I was just very happy to be in warm weather.
Okay, I didn't think about that. Yeah. So, Nero, tell us a little bit about yourself. Like, what are you doing now? And tell us, how did you get there? And what are the things that tried, tried to hold you back but didn't?
Yeah, sure. Well, I like to say to people that I'm a recovering shy person. S-H-Y. Because when I was a kid, you know, some people when they were younger, they were cheeky or funny or Noisy, always talking. I was quite the opposite. I was very shy and very timid. And I was not the sort of person anyone would look at and say, she's going to grow up and go somewhere. She's going to grow up and have all this influence. It just wasn't me. And as a teenager, I spent a lot of time in my room listening to music.
Me too. Were you an only child?
I wasn't an only child, but I was the youngest, and there was a little bit of a gap between my elder sister and myself. So, yeah, I was quite a loner, and I was very happy in my own company. I wasn't unhappy, but I just kept to myself, and I was fairly quiet. And then when I was 17, I had a major spinal operation for a condition called scoliosis. I don't know whether your listeners know that. It's a sideways curve of the spine, and mine was quite severe. And I'd had quite a few years of treatment leading up to the surgery, but I had to have the surgery, which meant that— excuse me, early morning— which meant that I was in a full plaster body cast from my neck to my hips for 6 months. Really thick.
Wow.
So this was when I was 17, just when a 17-year-old girl, you should be into clothes and boys and all of that. I literally went into my shell even further. I had this shell that I carried around.
Were you an only child?
No. So youngest of 3. Yeah, but that really had an impact on me. But it's really interesting, CB, even in the middle of that, I guess I'd started to get a little bit older by that point. There was a spark in there. There was something in there saying to me, you're going to be so much more than this. You've actually got to get yourself out there even though it feels uncomfortable. And I can kind of remember even thinking that at the time. There was these thoughts that this is not you. This is not how you're going to be for the rest of your life. And so at some point in my late teens, I started to decide that I was going to put myself out there into situations where I had to be confident. Even though I didn't feel confident.
So like, what, what did you do?
Well, I started to— I, I was always a very good writer at school, and I, I kind of formed the idea that I really wanted to become a journalist. In fact, a newspaper journalist at the time. You know, this was back in the day when newspapers were, were a bit more substantial than they are now. They were a thing. And so I started to work towards that. And all of this was happening while I was in plaster. That was kind of in my final year of high school when you're starting to really think about what you're doing next. And I remember I missed out on getting a cadetship role with one of the big newspapers in Sydney, which is where I am.
And I was so disappointed. What is a cadetship role?
So it's like— excuse me— it's like a traineeship. So I'm really dating myself here for your listeners because these days if people want to get into journalism, they go to college, they go to university as we call it, and they study. Well, back in those times, if you were good enough, you got taken on as a trainee by the newspaper straight from school, and then they trained you and sent you off to pay for your college and everything. So that's what I was going for, but I missed out because I'd been going through this treatment. And I was so devastated. But then I, I started to think, well, journalists don't just work for newspapers. They work in radio stations. They work in television stations. So I started to write to— I remember I sat with the telephone book. Can you remember those?
Yes, I heard about those.
Sitting on the floor of my bedroom, handwriting.
With a typewriter. With a typewriter.
I wrote to every television station, every radio station, and in the end, I got offered 2 different traineeships by 2 different radio stations in the same week. So I actually had a choice, and I ended up going with what was at the time the number one rating radio station in Sydney, and I became a trainee journalist at the age of 18, straight from school. And that was the start of a media career. So from there, I went from radio, and we could go into all that if you like, radio, television, and lots of other things. But it really started with me not being somebody who was ever going to be putting themselves out there in the media, but having this little voice going, no, you're going to be okay. And somehow I listened to that voice and it all turned out. So I'm sure people listening have had I've had challenges, and perhaps you've, you've had that voice, and just the importance of listening to that changes everything.
Did anybody help you to, to listen to that voice?
Well, you know, my parents were always very supportive, and, you know, we were always expected to do very well at school. We were kind of expected to, to, to achieve well. So they certainly, you know, encouraged me, uh, and, and encouraged me when I was contacting all these different radio and TV stations. But no, I guess I didn't really have a coach or a mentor or anybody like that because I was still very young, just finishing school. So a lot of it was driven internally. And I think that's probably helped quite a bit. I'm fairly self-driven. I have a lot of initiative. I think these days, generally, there are more support networks for people. So it is important if you are struggling that you do reach out to people to help. But I did tend to do it on my own.
I think there's more support groups, but still, you have to take that first step. And I think people need— well, first of all, they need to recognize that they can take a step. I think that's the most important. And second is to finds where you could take that step. And then third is to take the step. And sometimes you can't take it alone. Like, I am—
Mm-hmm.
The person I was just interviewing, Dr. Steven Feinberg, um, is an expert on influence. And I said to him, you know, Steven, I'd love for you to coach me because my downside is I hate making the sales call.
Oh yes, yes, we're twins there.
I am just god-awful at it. And, and he talked about, you know, identifying why that is. And I know there's triggers, right? But getting past that is a whole nother thing. It's like, I know I have an amazing product, but I don't want to pick up the phone and call a CEO and say, hire me.
I hear you. Yes.
So many people are good at that, but it goes to being able to, one, recognize that this is a stumbling block, and then next is try to find somebody to help you or for you to help yourself. So it's amazing to me that you went out and just did this yourself. Yeah.
So just trying to think back, you know, I think I had very good family structure and I was very close to my grandfather. And actually, he is probably the one who encouraged me more than anyone because even as a child, we used to play a game called continuing stories. I think he just made it up.
Yeah.
But one of us would start, we'd just make a story up, we'd invent the characters, and then we'd say a few sentences and then we'd hand over to the other person. And so the other of us had to just pick the story up and keep going. And then we'd pass it back and forth and we'd do this for hours and hours. And that, I think, is what sparked in me to become a journalist, to become a storyteller. And that, I guess, fueled my determination when I had that first knockback and didn't get the traineeship with the Sydney Morning Herald, which was my big dream. I guess that helped me to think, well, all right, that's not the end.
Yes.
What else? What else? Yeah, can I do—
There's always a trigger to move you forward, and oftentimes we forget it. Yeah, it's perfect. Yeah. So, okay, so you've got this position as a journalist. Were you nervous?
I was terrified, CB. I have to tell you, and again, I'm seriously dating myself, I was the first female trainee journalist this radio network had ever employed. So all male. And on my first day, the news director, who is like the big boss, said to me, so, Nerel, you will not be able to read the news here because our listeners do not want to hear a female voice.
Whoa!
But we'll allow you to read the weather and the stock report.
Well, I'm surprised they allow you to read the stock report.
I know, I know, right? So, so I got to do that. Not that I really understood any of it at the time. So my male counterparts were allowed to read the news, but I, I wasn't allowed to do that. But, you know, that was of its time, you know, that was just the way it was. But I, I was terrified. I was this timid little thing. I'd gone to an all-girls school, so no boys at the school. And now I had no brothers, only sisters. So now I'm in this all male, rough environment because back then, you know, newsrooms were a kind of rough place to be.
Yeah.
I remember also on my first day, somebody picked up a telephone and I'm not talking a mobile, a cell phone, I'm talking an old-fashioned phone and threw it across the room and it whizzed past my head.
Which meant for you?
They were just having a fit of temper, nothing to do with me. But I was just, oh, welcome to the world of journalism. But what I also heard was the clack clacking of the typewriters. And that I can still remember the excitement of hearing that clickety clickety click because I'd wanted to be a journalist for so long. And now I just felt like I'd arrived. So I could put up with the sexism. I could put up with people throwing things because I was here and this was my dream. That was fantastic. But I spent a lot of time crying in the bathroom. I was there for 3 years and it was terrifying, but I gradually got more confident. But gosh, I was, I was a little, little wimp at the start.
And handed it right back to them in the end. I love that story. What kept you from saying, I can't deal with this?
Oh, I guess, look, I couldn't face them. I couldn't go to my parents and say, I'm quitting. And not that I would have quit, not that I would have quit, But it was very hard. And look, I often say, and I've done a lot of things since, worked in a lot of places, that's the hardest place. That's the hardest experience I've ever had as a workplace because I was just so young and naive. I didn't have a clue. There was no HR department.
Yeah.
There was nobody to talk to. I was just completely on my own again, and I thought I just have to keep going. But yeah, it was tough. And this is in Sydney is the largest city in Australia, and I was sent out to cover these news stories. I'd never— I lived— I did grow up in the city, but out in the suburbs. We would never drive a car into the city ever. But now all of a sudden here, you know, drive out to this news conference. So now I'm driving a car through the city, over the Sydney Harbour Bridge, which I'd never done in my life. It was terrifying. I think I grew up about, you know, 10 years in the 3 years I was there. But what an experience. I got to cover some amazing stories and it really set me up. And as I say, nothing's ever been that hard again. Not that things have always been easy, but that was the hardest. So you've got to go through those times, haven't you? And what did Winston Churchill say? If you're going through hell, keep going. And that's pretty much what I did.
Would you do it again?
Oh, I think knowing what I know, look, what do they say? Well, ignorance is bliss. You know, I kind of didn't know what to expect. Going back, obviously going back as a grown-up person, I'd handle those boys very differently. But look, I think I would do it again because that was the stepping stone that changed everything. And, you know, that set me up for so many other things. Otherwise, I would have still been sitting in my bedroom listening to music. So this got me out. And, you know, I was on my way. It was the start of my career.
Yeah, I'm often asked, 'cause I've had, you know, a very hairy background, no drugs or anything like that, but, you know, a lot of racism in corporate America. And I asked myself, would I do it again? And I would like to say, I would like to have the knowledge that I had, but I don't want to go through it again, you know. And, um, but it gave me a great deal of knowledge and compassion for others and sort of a kick-ass attitude towards challenges.
Yes. Yeah.
You know, I— my husband took me to see Pink the other day for my birthday, and wow. I thought, this is a woman after my own heart.
Yeah, isn't she amazing?
That's really kick-ass. And, and with a heart and funny and just so assured of herself.
Yes.
And very protective. I mean, she just checks off every single box, right?
Yeah, no, I agree. Yeah.
I think she, she represents a good model for men and women, right?
Yes.
So what happened to you next?
Well, so after that, I— in the meantime, I had got married very young, very young. Didn't last all that long, but I, I was married. And at the time, he wanted to move out of Sydney, uh, to a, a smaller a smaller city, smaller town. And so we did that and a job came up at the local TV network in that town. So not as big as Sydney, but still an opportunity to move into television.
Mm-hmm.
So I moved from radio into television and that was the start of a career of about 10 years for that network, which was fantastic. So I was a I was a reporter and I ended up being a weekend news reader. I was allowed to read the news there. They had women on air and also being a producer. And then I left for a little while and then they gave me the opportunity, excuse me, to start up another news program on their network. So I became the news director of that program and hired all the staff and ran that program for a number of years. What was that like? platform into television, which was an amazing experience. Being a TV reporter, you get a kind of front row seat on life and had some incredible experiences over that time. And all the time I was getting more and more confident. I was leaving behind the shy kid and really becoming who I was meant to be, which was wonderful.
Wow. And so what are some of the stories that you covered that were shocking to you or that had an influence on your life, more to the point?
Yeah, great question. And as a journalist, there are so many. People often think working in the media is glamorous, and maybe if you're on a top, top, top rating show and you don't have to do a lot of work, you just front up, maybe it is. But wow, that was not the type of media I was in. It was hard work. The pay was not very good. You worked all sorts of shifts, weekends, nights, and you were expected to kind of churn out story after story. So it becomes a bit of a blur, but certainly there were some stories that stood out. I became the police reporter, so I covered all the crime stories. And so I've been to more horrible crime scenes than, you know, you'd want to even consider. One story that really sticks with me, and it's a tragic story but also kind of uplifting, was a woman who Both of her children had been killed by a drunk driver in a hit-and-run accident. They were walking on the side of the road, I think maybe with their bicycles, and he came along. He'd been drinking, it was early in the morning. I think he'd had like an all-night drinking session and came along and killed them both. And I covered her story, and then the court case, they ended up arresting this guy. A few years later and was charged. So this this went over a few years, but she in the meantime had formed a group called Mothers Against Drunk Driving, MADD.
Yes, I know it well.
Okay, so she'd kind of started started here in the United States. Oh, I think I think it did, and she started it then in Australia.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, and so she became I guess she when I first met her, she was like you know obviously so. broken. And I remember we went to her house to interview her, and her whole lounge room was like a shrine to her 2 children. Like, the whole room was full of photographs and candles, and, you know, it was just heartbreaking. But she channeled all of that into this movement and starting this movement. So that was an incredible story. And I kept in touch with her for quite a few years. This is going back a long time, so I've lost touch with her now. I don't know what ended up happening with her. I'll have to have a look. But I also remember when that man stood trial and she was there in the courtroom, and gosh, the tension leading up to that verdict. He was found guilty and he did do jail time. But yeah, I guess that the depth of that tragedy, which could happen to any of us at any time in different ways, And then her strength in, in being able to channel that into, you know, doing something incredibly positive was, was, yeah, something that's really stuck with me over the years. So that's probably a standout one.
Wow. What was it like to be at your first blood and gore scene?
Yeah, but look, very difficult. And I guess this, this touches on what we were talking about before, because this is back— and again, I'm dating myself— I'm talking about the late 1980s. '80s, early '90s, there weren't support networks. There was no counseling of people who'd been at those scenes. And I remember the police and the ambulance officers and everybody else, they have this kind of dark sense of humor because they have to, because they're at those scenes all the time. And so you'd be there and they'd be joking around really about what was happening.
And that was shocking to me.
But of course, I realized later that's their coping mechanism.
Yes.
But yeah, the first few times, and probably always, I don't think it ever really left me, there'd be just such a sense of shock. And I certainly had flashbacks to some of those terrible things that I saw for a long time afterwards, things that we couldn't show on television, but I got to see them. Some things you can't unsee. Yeah, that hardened me up quite a lot, I think. I had never been exposed to anything like that. It was pretty horrific, some of those things. And also, you know, not just those, but then having to interview relatives of people who'd had terrible tragedies, or what we used to call the death knock. I don't know whether you know that. The death knock is where the media go and knock on the door of a relative of of somebody who's been murdered or been in an accident. Terrible thing. You know, when you work in the media, there's some of the things that you're required to do. That was hard. That was really hard. On the flip side, you know, got to tell and share some incredible stories. Not all of them uplifting though. Some of them were, yeah, were dark and tragic. I guess it's just a reminder that this is part of the human condition, isn't it?
Yeah. Yeah.
And part of, part of daily life.
Well, I have to say, I admire you for, for having the courage to do that because I would have said, I'm out of here. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, again, you know, being young, would I do that now? No. But back then, when you're a junior reporter and your boss tells you this is what, what you're going to do, you don't really question it. And it's also considered the done thing. It's terrible, but it is In, in media world, it's considered kind of a normal part of what you do. Um, but yes, looking back in hindsight, it's very different. At the time, I just did it. Did I enjoy doing it? No, no, it was always, always hard. And I had a lot of doors slammed in my face as well.
I'm sure, I'm sure. But talk about hardening you up quickly.
Yes.
So where did you go from there?
Well, at some point, I worked in television for a long time. And as I said, it's not as glamorous as some people make out. And I got to a point really, CB, where I felt like I just covered every story imaginable from major crime to politicians doing dodgy things to giant vegetables and everything in between. I'd covered it all. And It starts to wear on you. It's hard work. It's quite stressful. And so I did what we call in the media, I crossed to the dark side, which means that I crossed from the media into corporate communication. I decided to go and work on the other side.
Yes.
So I moved into a series of roles like that. I worked firstly for a university as their external communications manager, which was fascinating. I've got to say, with no disrespect to any college professionals listening, that I found the pace incredibly slow.
Oh, of course, compared to what you had been through, this was a nice stop for you.
I know. For the first 6 months, I was bouncing off the walls. Come on, come on. What are we doing? What are we doing? And the people around me are like, what's wrong with you? Just slow down. So that took a while to kind of just take a breath. And it's funny because that's the first time I was really exposed to the idea of thinking strategically, planning ahead. Because when you think about it, a journalist is very tactical. It's all about the next story, the next bulletin. You don't care about next week or even tomorrow. You've got this black airtime to fill and that's it. That's your task. But in a university or a broader business environment, you've got to think about tomorrow and next week and next year. And at first I thought, well, what's this about? And then I started to learn, oh, actually this is the way the rest of the world operates.
Thanks.
It doesn't operate like the media. It's in weird bubble all of its own.
Uh-huh.
So that was fascinating. So I really started to learn some good business practices. And then from there, I went into various levels of government. So here in Australia, we've got local, state, and federal government, and I've worked in all of them, mainly in local government though, which is more your local councils delivering the real bread and butter services to the communities. And And I just loved it because it was like being in the media but not being in the media. Fast-paced, dealing with real human issues. But I had more weekends off and the pay was slightly better.
Oh, that's interesting. Yeah.
So that kind of, I guess, rounded me off. So I've had the kind of the fast-paced tactical stuff and then more into the business. And then from there, I morphed into Starting my own business and helping leaders with their communication.
Nobody morphs into—
Gradually.
What first of all made you have the courage to go out on your own?
Oh yeah, that, that was talking about courage. And, you know, you, you know this.
Why did you decide to do that? That's, that's That's kind of an insane decision.
Well, but by then I was married to a wonderful man with his own business, very, very successful entrepreneur businessman. And so that was certainly an inspiration that, oh, you know, I could do this. And by then I'd worked in government for a long time and, you know, that little voice was at me again going, you know, there's more, there's more you can do, you can have more impact. And so I thought, I think I'd like a bit more freedom because when you work in a government role for a long time, you become a bit institutionalized.
Yes.
You know, you become very used to things being done a certain way. And I thought, I think I'd like some more variety. So I started to do that. Now we're talking about courage. I gave myself an easy entry because I talked to my employer about switching to part-time. And they agreed, which was fantastic of them.
Yes.
So for the first probably 2, maybe even 3 years, I was still working on a salary a couple of days a week. And then the other 2 days I was slowly building my business. And then I got to a tipping point where it was time to step out. And that was a little scary, but I'd built up enough momentum by then. So I eased my way in. I can't I didn't just leap and lead. I kind of inched.
Inch and lead. I like that.
Yeah, but for me, that was a sensible way to do it. But certainly there are plenty of people who do the cold turkey method, just kind of leave and go and sink or swim. For me, it was a bit less dramatic than that.
Do you think that you would have gone into your own business if you weren't married to somebody who was successful?
That's a really great question, and I don't really know. Look, I had been thinking about it before that, but would I have actually had, had the courage? I'm, I'm not sure. Perhaps I would have, but it may have taken even longer, uh, because I guess what's the saying? You can't be what you can't see. So I could see that in action and I could see the possibilities for me. And also, I guess another factor was by then I had become involved in our national speaking association here. So I'd started to hang out with people who had made this their business and started to think, wow, this is a thing. I could actually do this and make a living out of it. So I guess it was a combination of a few of those factors, but I do think it would have been a slower process because I was quite wedded to the security of the 9 to 5 and also having a team around me. I had built up this wonderful team, the last job that I had, and they'd become my friends. And I certainly missed that. Starting my own business and going out on my own can be a very lonely place.
Yes.
And I missed that, having wonderful people around me. I didn't miss the difficult parts of managing people, but I certainly missed the lovely team environment we'd managed to create. In fact, some of those people are still my friends.
What would you say was the actual trigger that helped you pull the trigger and say, here's my resignation, I'm done?
Well, I think there'd been a few changes at that point. I was working for a local council. There had been quite a few changes going on in that organization. And so I was really having to make a decision that, okay, there are going to be some challenges here where I'm working that are going to take time and commitment for me to help them with. Am I prepared to embark on that or do I want to now make the change? So that probably made the decision a little easier as well, that it was possibly time to hand over to somebody else who had a bit more energy and was ready to take on these things. That was a factor. And I think I had started to build up more opportunities out there so that I could see that I would be able to sustain a business. It was quite modest in the beginning, you know, but I could see that I could financially transition and I would be okay. So again, I did it very sensibly and step by step rather than doing the big leap.
Yeah, but I think what gets to a lot of women is, can I, should I, when, how, and the absolutely overwhelming fear of failure.
Absolutely.
And so I'm always fascinated by what makes the difference between them And someone else. I know for me, when I started the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches, it was, I'm so tired of looking for another position.
Right.
And I knew always that I wanted to have my own business, and I was watching the age clock.
Yes.
And I said, okay, we're getting— you still find another position? But if you said yes, would you have enough time to build up your own business?
Yes.
And are you tired of looking for another position? Are you tired of having to follow someone else's direction, orders? Are you tired of dealing with the racism from inside out. What's the decision you're going to make here? And I did it slowly like you did.
Right.
I started working for other people during my vacation time that would allow for me to do freelance work and writing and things like that. But it It was quite scary, but it was— I was at a point where the alternative was not going to work for me. So I wonder, with other women like yourself who are successful, what was the final straw?
Yeah, it is so interesting, isn't it? Because it's like any change, isn't it? The future state has to be better than the current state or we often don't take the leap. And so what is that tipping point?
Well, we don't see the value in the future correctly.
Yes, because we gravitate to what's familiar, of course. Most of us will do that. And so, yes, I think a little like you've described, there were some things going on in that organization that I thought I'd I just don't know if I've got the energy to deal with this. And, you know, they need somebody with that fresh approach. You know, that's kind of the story I was telling myself. So I think that's a signal that I'd already made that decision.
Yes.
Actually, for me, it was probably the freedom, a little bit like you said, do I want to follow somebody else's rules? It was the lure of, yeah, being my own boss, being able to call the shots, being able to do to do what I wanted. Having that variety and freedom, I think, was just the appeal. And, you know, it was a great decision. Like I said, I missed my teammates and still do. I still have moments where I miss them all these years later.
Are you ever sorry that you did this?
Yeah, I'm not sorry that I did it, but being realistic, being an entrepreneur, being in business, you know, it's a roller coaster, isn't it? And unless you're in it, unless you've done it, you don't really understand that. You don't see that when you're in employment. And there's nothing wrong with being in employment. It's 2 totally different things. So I'm not sorry, but I certainly have had moments, to be honest, over the years when, you know, you're in the bottom part of the roller coaster. Where I thought, oh, wouldn't it just be so much easier to turn up, do your job and get paid?
Work 24/7 to get that paycheck. That's it.
But you, of course, forget the reason temporarily. Temporarily forget the reason that that's the very reason why you didn't stay there. So those feelings don't last long. So I wouldn't say I'm sorry that I did it. I would say that I have times facing challenges as we inevitably do in business where I sometimes think, oh, that feeling of security, it would be lovely to have that feeling of security all the time. But I don't know that it's possible to have both at the same time. But I think that's often in business what we strive for, isn't it? We want the freedom and the excitement, but we also want to have security. And perhaps some people are able to achieve both. I'm still a work in progress in that area.
Yeah. What advice would you give other women particularly, and also then men about having your own company and being successful? What makes— so 2 different questions. What advice would you give them about having their own company? And what advice would you give about how to achieve success? And maybe in between that is how do you define success?
Okay. It's still early in the morning for me. Lots of things to think about. In terms of having your own business, what advice? I think it's being as clear as you possibly can on who you want to serve and how you're going to serve them. I was very random. I was very ad hoc. I know that I have some friends even now who want to have everything planned out to the nth degree before they do anything. And that is not me at all. I'm definitely a ready, fire, aim, Yeah, I am too. Yeah. But sometimes that's cost me because I've been quite sporadic and not as strategic as I could have been. So I think there's probably a middle ground where you can still—
The strategic can lead to paralysis.
Yes.
There you have it. That's it.
I think I would have benefited from a little more strategy. I didn't have enough strategy. And maybe that came from my journalist background where you're just bang, bang, bang and going after things. So I think in terms of setting up the business, yes, don't wait until the logo is perfect or you— the logo is gonna change 100 times, you know, just do it. No one cares. But certainly think about your— somebody once put it to me in terms of your starving crowd. What's the starving crowd that you're going to feed? And that resonated for me, just thinking about who is it that I can really help? You know, you're not gonna help everybody. So who is it realistically that need your help, who will pay for that help? Because otherwise you're a charity, you're not a business. I would've liked to have gotten clearer on that earlier. So that would be my advice about starting the business because really, if you don't have clarity on that, you know, you're probably not gonna survive too long in business. For me, that's built up gradually. And in terms of the quality to be able to do that, it's really just about backing yourself. You've just got to back yourself. And even though—
What do you mean by that?
You've got to— well, it's self-belief, isn't it? Even in those moments where you don't have a lot in your bank account and you don't have a lot coming up and you're thinking, well, I'd like the security of my job back. It's about believing in yourself and why you're there and reminding yourself, I'm backing myself here. I'm I'm going to support myself and believe that I do have people that I can help, that I've got the skills and the experience to help them. I'm going to go out and find them, make that connection and make that difference in their lives and just continually having a broken record to yourself. Yeah.
And I One of the things that we tend to do when the tough becomes tough is we over-grandize what we left.
Yes.
You know, instead of being realistic about why and how to, how to change or tweak where you are now so that it becomes better, we always want to run back sort of to shelter.
Yes, that's right. And comparing, comparing with other people's success.
Oh my God, that is the kiss of death. Yes.
And I certainly, as a professional speaker, you know, our industry is rampant with that. And it's so easy to fall into that trap because you're surrounded by all these amazing people who on the outside, of course, they appear wonderfully successful. And you've got to remind yourself that they have moments too. They all have moments too. And, uh, so that, that can definitely be a, be a trap where we compare and despair.
Yeah.
So it's—
I found that one of the best things that I did was to decide that I was gonna do this. I needed to have people around me to hold me accountable. And that was a hard realization because I'm fairly independent person, but even if you're independent, you can weasel your way around, uh, things in your head, right?
Yeah.
And so having people that you've said, this is what I'm gonna do when, and this is how I'm gonna do it, makes all the difference in the world. Yeah.
Yes, that's, that's certainly helped me. You know, as I said, not very strategic in the beginning and not very structured. So yes, having a— I've had various business coaches over the years, various people like that. I've got a business strategist at the moment. Yeah, because that's not my skill set. I think that's, that's really it, isn't it? It's recognizing your strengths.
Yes.
Having the, having the humility to say, all right, not so good at that. I'm gonna get somebody to help me with that. It took me a while to work that out. We can't do everything ourselves. That's a fast track to crazy.
Well, because we're experts because we've opened this business, right?
Yes, exactly.
What are you doing now that we need to know about?
Well, these days, primarily, I work with leaders and organizations that want to communicate with credibility, especially under pressure. So that can mean a leader going through some sort of problem or crisis in their organization that perhaps is in the public domain. They need to speak in the media or on social media, and they need to do do that credibly. And this is not about helping leaders who've done dodgy things gloss over it. I'm not saying that. It's about leaders who want to authentically communicate, to be genuine and open and honest and do that in a credible way. But it could also be leaders who need to communicate with credibility under pressure in their boardroom or in their executive committee room. Or even having challenging one-on-one conversations with team members or clients. So I call them spotlight situations, and they could literally be somebody in the spotlight, but they could equally be a spotlight situation that's actually in private, but the pressure is still there. Because I'm finding, and I don't know if you can relate to this, CB, and your listeners, with so much turnover in workplaces as we've had in the last few years, all sorts of people have found themselves in middle management and leadership roles, which is great, but we've now got this crisis of confidence. People don't have the confidence to communicate well, especially when it's hard. So they go into avoidance. They go into not wanting to take on the difficult situations or to own up, to face up to the hard truths. And so that's the sort of thing that I help them with. So I'm able, fortunately, I guess I bring a combination of my media skills and other situations. I was an announcer at the Sydney Olympics. So those moments where you've really got to be on point under pressure, but also my own story because being a recovering shy person, as I said at the start, they're just little incremental changes I made throughout my life, little tips and tools. Some of them were innate, some things were actually learned. So bringing that in helps people make that transformation over time. It's not that they learn one skill and then they're amazing the next day. Of course, it's taking things and applying them over time. And people who do that are able to make change and to become more comfortable in pressure situations. A lot of people just say, oh, I'm not a very confident communicator, and they just draw a line under that. And move on. But let me ask you, it's completely fixable.
Down under, do you have this concept, the situation of the cancel culture?
Yes. Oh, yes.
How are you advising the C-suite to deal with that? That is deadly in so many ways.
It's created a minefield, hasn't it? And I think it's really affected people's confidence because we don't want to offend anybody. We don't want to say the wrong thing. And we've got a lot of people in workplaces, and I'm sure it's the same in workplaces all over the world, who are really struggling with mental health issues with everything that's happened.
That's one of the pandemics. Yeah.
And we've got these leaders who are tiptoeing around that. You can't have a conversation about someone's performance because they might have mental health issues and then they're going to go off on stress leave. And it's really difficult. I don't have the magic wand. solution to that, but it's about helping them have honest, respectful conversations that are heart-led, that are led with human connection. Because when you do that, you can have the tough conversations more easily.
Absolutely.
But a lot of people bring their person in the suit to work, even if they're working from home and are on Zoom, they forget to bring the rest of them.
Well said. Well said.
Yeah. Yeah.
Now here in the United States, the laws have become so strict about, um, privacy, you know, what you can say, what you can ask. A manager can't even ask a person who's out ill, how are you feeling, even if it's coming from their heart. And I believe that one of the things we've lost Is the ability to show, to show our hearts. So when you take hearts out of the conversation, then the conversation becomes much more edgy.
Yes.
Right? And then that, that's what gets you into trouble. I've had some conversations or comments that I've had with people that I'm sure I would be called to task with. And people just say to me, CB, I really appreciate it.
Yes, it's a funny old world, isn't it? We haven't got to that extent here yet, but that's certainly the way it's heading. And the other thing overlaid with that is that we don't answer our phones anymore. We don't look at a lot of emails because of cybersecurity. We don't trust, we don't click on links. Pretty much every phone call, if you don't recognize the number, is going to be someone trying to sell you something. So even actually getting to people to have conversations is so much harder.
That's a good point.
Than it was even 12 months ago.
Yeah.
You know, and so even though the world is more connected than ever, our circles have got smaller because unless I recognize that person's number, I'm not answering call. Um, it— so it's become very impersonal.
Wait, hold on, hold on. Uh, I see we're running short on this hour, so I want to continue this conversation. Audience, please come back for part 2.
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