CB Bowman LIVE! Challenges of the C-Suite: Guest: Pam, Episode 73

Hello everybody, it's Tuesday. Yes, it's Tuesday and I'm here. It's CB Bowman Live Challenges of the C-Suite, and we're running a little late today on purpose. If you follow me, you saw it was going to be late today. I had a little appointment that I, I couldn't get out of, and so Pam was kind enough to come on a little late with me. But you know, I miss you guys so much. I did not want to cancel this. So we are here today. You know, I always talk about special guests, and that's because I find the most special people. What can I say? I have this knack. Today, I, I think we're just gonna have to say up front, first of all, here's my secret. You know, I always give a secret. Pam is gonna be on this show again. She doesn't know it yet, but we have so much to talk about. There's no way we're gonna cover this in our normal hour, so stay tuned. Listen to this. She's— oh my God, she's so wise. This is especially, you know, I don't normally dive into the area of careers.

Hmm.

Done that, been there. you know, moved up to leadership or move out to leadership, however you want to talk about, and inclusion. But Pam has written a book that— and you know LinkedIn, I'm not supposed to promote anything. But so we're not going to talk about her incredible book. We're going to talk about the concept of her incredible book. And this concept of the cubicle, it not only applies to your career in terms of working for somebody else, it also applies to business. And if you go to my website, scalingup.biz, you'll see how her work relates to what I'm doing with people, which is supporting them on expanding their business so that they can work less and earn more. Pam is a soulmate from a different mom and a different dad, we say. And she reminds me of a book that set me on this path that I read when I was really young. And I don't remember the author, and I wish I did. It was a woman. It was such an incredible journey reading the book. It was talking about how each individual must have their own board of directors. These are people that you go to for advice, for solace related to business, and people who are— I would call, you know, my husband is Italian, right? The wise ones, right? Um, and there are people that you can confess your business problems and they have solutions.

Right.

So it's to say that you, you, you can't really count on one person. It has to be a group of people because you don't want to wear anybody out. You want to be kind in your ask, and you certainly want to give back. So when I heard Pam on my friend Dori Clark's show, I said, uh-oh, Dori, you've got one up on me with one powerful guest. I need to get her on my show. So without further ado, I'm going to ask Pamela to introduce herself. Pamela, tell us who you are, what you're about. Tell us the whole story. But first, start with the mention of the name of your book.

Okay. Yes. Well, I am so happy to be here and to connect with you to have a deeper conversation and also for folks in your community. It's one of the favorite things that I like about these kinds of conversations. And as you said, finding fellow travelers in trying to make the world a better place. So I am here in Mesa, Arizona. I originally grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area and met and fell in love with my handsome husband, Darrell. So whenever people ask me why, why I moved to Arizona, it really was for love. But prior to moving here, I had been a management consultant for 10 years in mainly Silicon Valley, working in a lot of tech companies, doing a lot of work helping them to scale up. And as they went through different stages of growth, sometimes scale down. And so when I moved here to Arizona, I was really interested in really taking a bit of a different shift and beginning, instead of doing big consulting projects and being on the road all the time, to begin to work with people who had been whispering in my ear for 10 years as a management consultant, saying, How did you do it?

How did you leave your corporate job to start a business.

And so that became my first blog, which was Escape from Cubicle Nation, that started in 2005. I blogged; that ended up turning into my first book of the same name that I published in 2009 with Penguin Portfolio. And then, as my work evolved, I always say I'm an author-practitioner, because as my work evolved, I worked for about 10 years straight just helping people in early-stage entrepreneurship, making the transition to corporate, with one-on-one clients, with doing group classes and events. And then as I began to grow, I noticed more that there were people who were interested, like the work you're doing, in scaling their business and being a little bit more deliberate about their intellectual property and really their methods and processes. So I created my second book, Body of Work, in— that came out in 2014. And then in 2016, my husband and I opened up this Main Street Learning Lab, where I'm streaming live from today, right in the middle of downtown Mesa. And really, it was the growing of this community, that really was designed to be highlighting the leadership that exists within our Black, Indigenous, folks of color entrepreneur community here. My husband is Navajo, so he's a Native business owner. And we really put in play a lot of the methods that I have in my latest book, which is called The Widest Net. So that's, in summary, a bit of a, a bit of the journey. I describe myself as being a writer, a business coach, and the co-founder of the Main Street Learning Lab with my husband, Darrell.

Okay, that was way too fast and way too professional. That, that's not our style here. We're gonna talk here, like, you know, we're gonna talk. Tell me, how did— and I'm gonna go there— how'd a woman— how did a woman become so powerful? What was it in your childhood? How were you raised? Tell us the scoop.

Hmm, I really feel like I was shaped by a few things. My dad is, uh, was— he passed about 4 years ago— he was a photographer, lifelong photographer, and a really big community builder. He was very much an introvert, whereas I'm a raging extrovert. So I saw him very quietly but consistently working on community. And he was very passionate about the environment, about recycling. So I grew up in a little town called San Anselmo, California, which is across the Golden Gate Bridge from San Francisco. And, and so— I've been to San Anselmo.

Yes.

Yeah. So he was working on— opened the first curbside recycling program in the state of California in 1971, working in open space. And then after my parents' divorce, when I was about 5, he moved to a little town called Port Costa, a town of 200 people in the Carquinez Strait in the Bay Area. And he and my bonus mom, Dee, who he fell in love with, and they had a wonderful, long marriage together. They spent about 40 years as volunteers fixing up an old school called the Port Costa School. And it really was just based on this vision, as my dad said, of like, this is an amazing building, and people should be tap dancing here and learning Spanish and doing interesting community things. And so that was really a lot of what influenced, I think, my journey of community engagement. And, and my mom, I think, a lot of her influence on me was a lot about Connection and family. My mom was trained as a teacher and is very passionate about family. She'll be the first to say, like, I don't know what the hell any of my kids do, but it sounds really cool. But I have really fantastic grandchildren, and let's talk about parenting. And so I appreciate that about my mom. She's also a passionate outdoors person at 86 years old.

Wait, wait, did you say you have grandchildren?

No, no, no, my mom's grandkids. So yes, yes, yes. No, I don't. I just have, I have 3 kids. 2 that my husband and I had together, Angie, who's 14, and Josh, who's 16. And then my bonus son Jeffrey, who is 35.

Okay, great. All right. Because I was gonna say, you hardly look old enough to have children.

Oh, I could. I'm 55. So I could definitely have grandchildren if I, if I started a little bit earlier. But my husband and I were on a little bit of a longer-term plan.

We're not going to go there about age. Let's skip over that part. Oh, I don't mind.

I love every year that I've, that I've been on the earth. So I am happy to talk about how old I am.

Right. Okay. And so this sounds like the foundation, caring for community and your mom being a teacher. It sounds like a great foundation for what you are doing. And so what were you like in high school?

I actually, it's funny, I was talking to my kids about this. I, as many people journey, right, through our own way, functional and dysfunctional ways of dealing with, with heartbreak, you know, of having my parents divorce when I was young. Overall, you know, we were fine compared to so many people. But, you know, it was hard. My mom wasn't expecting it. She had to work 3 jobs. You know, we all started working really young. And so I, was somebody who knew everybody in high school. I was friends with everybody. I did start to go down the path of, of doing drugs and, but kind of hiding it. So I had that path early, early on. And it was one of those things of really showing up as a very organized, straight-A student and just like hoping that teachers and parents would not see that other side.

Hmm.

But it was my dysfunctional way that I ended up, I think, managing some of my, like, repressed feelings about what had happened earlier. So it was interesting. I had what I consider to be a huge spiritual epiphany, which was walking back to class one day. It was my junior year of high school. And I just saw in front of me 2 paths. It just became very clear vision.

Wow.

And I just could feel with every fiber of my being That if I continue down this one path, that it would not end well. I was, you know, lucky, really, for not having had more things happen to me with that path. And the other path that I saw was actually leaving and becoming an exchange student, because my brother had been an exchange student for a summer. And it was just in the moment, I had a flash. And I just said, Yeah. That is my ticket out. I have to completely get out of this environment. And from that moment when I was 16 years old and a junior, I have not done a drug since. It just was immediate after really, you know, in all transparency, like smoking pot every day, you know, as a youngster from an early age, I just completely stopped. And then I ended up being an exchange student in Neuchâtel, Switzerland, which was hugely transformational, just being away from home. And then it was there that I met people from all over the world, from Ghana and Venezuela and all these different places.

Wow.

It completely opened my mind to other places, other cultures, and really began a fascination with that. So I ended up going to school at a really small college that focused on all global studies. Then I lived in Mexico my sophomore year and Colombia and Bogotá my senior year. So it really was like a whole path that I didn't see coming. But I am very grateful for however it is that, that happened to me, that I got that very clear message. I listened, and it really did totally transform my life.

I am so— first of all, I'm stunned. Second of all, thank you so much for sharing. I do want to ask you a question. How did you become an exchange student after having this challenging background? I mean, who helped you? How did you do it?

I, my mom will tell you, if, if nothing, I am determined. Whatever I lean into, I lean into full force. And she, the way she describes it, I just came home from school one day, and I was like, here's the deal. I'm going to be an exchange student. I have no idea how we're going to pay for it. But we will make it happen. And that's the way it's going to be. There had been a visiting group of exchange students to my high school. And I actually had met Stéphane, who lived in Neuchâtel, Switzerland. He was, had been an exchange student that year to another high school in my local area. And when we were talking, he said that his family wanted an exchange student. And so in that moment, I said, great, I would, I studied French in school. And so I said, I'd love to go to a French-speaking country. And so we kind of arranged that where I knew that I already potentially had a host family. And then I just leaned into it hard. I talked to the folks at the organization. I ended up getting some scholarship money. I had worked since I was 12. I've worked always. And since I was 12, so I worked, I saved money, and we made it happen.

How old were you when you had this epiphany?

16.

So you had saved money since from 12 to 16, even though you were on drugs?

I had saved some, but I also always had a job. So when I knew that I needed to make money, there was a fixed amount of money. And this was 1984. So it was '83, '84. So it was 1983. And so the amount of money that it, that it took to make it happen, you know, was, was a feasible amount for me working. Yeah, and in the dysfunction of, you know, sort of the environment where I was, there were friends who had had easy access, right, to marijuana and things like that, and from their parents. So I never actually really like was one who was buying or purchasing. And thankfully, it There wasn't anything really much harder than that. You know, and it's, it's interesting, because now, you know, I've found through conversation with people just about everywhere, regardless of the economic situation of a particular environment, if it's in a wealthy neighborhood or not, drugs are rampant through high school today. My kids are really open with me. And, you know, they have conversations. There are kids who are doing prescription drugs, they're, you know, obviously doing, you know, smoking pot, Doing heroin. Like, and we live in like suburban Mesa, Arizona. And then you find the same thing that's happening everywhere. So it's one of these unfortunate things that, that happens to be still running through so many, you know, high schools and so many kids of that age. One, one thing that I really took from that experience that I really share with my kids is just, I know in a very concrete way that—

Right.

I have been down that path. And there is nothing that compares to the joy that I just feel from living my life really fully, embracing it, you know, having amazing experiences. And my husband, by contrast, never drank or never did any drugs at all. He grew up as a traditional Navajo household with his, his grandfather. Actually, there was alcoholism in his family too, but he personally never had that path.

Mm-hmm.

So I feel like my kids are lucky because they have had both of this experience. And I just try to be really transparent and say, you know, I understand it could be around you. I understand it could be compelling. You know, my job is to help you make— be a really good decision maker and make good choices. But it is everywhere. It's very distressing. But it's the case, I think, for high schools and sometimes junior highs as well, everywhere.

Well, I have to tell you, I respect your books more now that I know this, because how many people are lucky enough to be able to see 2 paths straight in front of them and make a decision. So when you talk about, um, identifying yourself with people who can support you, when you talk about taking— my favorite expression is, I leap first and then figure out where I'm gonna land.

Mmm.

When I saw something like that in your bio, I started laughing. But having the guts to do that and feeling like, okay, I may fall in the wrong spot, but I'm gonna dust myself off, pick myself up, and leap again. It gives me concrete— and I hear I'm getting feedback, and I'm not sure why, um, but it gives me concrete information in terms of how you— arrived at the place that you arrived at and, and able to advise people in a solid manner?

Yeah, I mean, I think each of us in our own way, in our own personal journey, are shaped by our life experiences, shaped by environment around us, our friends, our family. And then there's also just a factor that I just consider to be a bit of a mystery. For how it is that we are, you know, how we are, why we make certain decisions. There's a lens of it, of course, which is very related to the work that I do within inclusive community building. And there's a huge privilege that I have as a white woman growing up with that experience. If I were a Black woman, a Black man, you know, young person, I would have had, guaranteed, a very different path. And I want to be really clear about that. And that's another thing that I talk to my kids about, is being Navajo and Anglo. and having lots of friends of color, you know, I can have my own experience where I happen to be lucky and privileged and having a system that was really favoring my security and well-being and keeping me away from law enforcement. But that is not the case where you are a child of color here.

Yeah, I think you're saying— and, and smart, let's add that on to it. I think that you're saying that There might have been a third path for people of color, uh, and having those 3 decisions and not having the support, uh, or the exposure that you had to meet people who were part of an exchange situation. That makes a big difference. I'm gonna go to my audio and see if I can't fix that, guys. You know how it works here. Shift audio, audio automatic. Okay, hold on, guys. I've got my Krisp on, so that's not it. I think I might have LinkedIn— ah, here we go. Let's just try to get out of this. And see if that will help. I don't think this is the problem, but I'm told that if you have LinkedIn open on your computer and you are broadcasting this way, that it could affect the results. We're trying that and we'll see what happens. Did I cut you off?

You did not.

Okay, good. So I want to talk to you about the first book, Cubicle Nation. Tell us about it specifically.

As I was saying earlier, that really a lot of the inspiration that I had for venturing into that territory, not having had any experience with entrepreneurship besides my own. It was a pretty big, it was a pretty big leap for me. I was very comfortable having come from a corporate environment where I was Director of Training and Development at a financial services company in San Francisco. So making the transition from there into consulting for larger companies felt like a pretty parallel path. It, it was fun; it was interesting. There were different kinds of industries. But being in a big corporate environment was a territory that I really understand and understood and knew how to navigate. I had found so many people who really were interested in working for themselves. And as we've talked about before, I do have a huge tolerance for risk. I, I'm a Quick Start on Kolbe, if anybody's ever taken the Kolbe Index. And so I always tell my clients over the years, I quit without a plan. I turned 30, I got pneumonia. I was like, forget it, I'm gonna just get another job.

Right.

I had been running a nonprofit martial arts organization for 10 years. And so I had been like, doing all kinds of martial arts— capoeira, Afro-Brazilian martial art. I basically was working like 100 hours a week, like all during my 20s. And I just got completely burned out. I quit without a plan, which I don't ever recommend, unless you happen to be me, where I know, I know how to navigate. And I knew that I was in an area that made sense. So what I discovered in lots of conversations with people is that there was an unspoken conversation that people would share with me very often at the end of a day. Sometimes it was the client that hired me to come in and do work to retain their team, where after doing work for a whole day, maybe an offsite or something, they would, we'd, you know, sit down and talk or debrief. And then when we had a quiet moment, they would begin to share often some of their deeper aspirations. And I remember having really beautiful and profound, meaningful conversations. And I know personally, I was like, these are the kinds of conversations that I want to have. I really did enjoy my work. I really enjoyed it. And I feel like we made some real, really big progress in the projects. So I was not disgruntled in corporate; like, I really did enjoy it. But it was those very deep conversations. The meaningful ones. Yeah, it was like those deeper conversations. And what I discovered, I think part of what drew me into that, the world of escape, was that there was this, I call the thought bubble above people's heads. So they might be going through the world feeling like everything is fine, and they're presenting like everything is together. But in the back of their head, they were saying, like, I cannot stand to be in this meeting one more moment. Like, I don't know what I feel. I feel completely dead inside. Like all of these conversations that I would have privately, I knew that was happening. And I knew that if they really wanted to be successful leaving, sometimes a very high salary at a long-established corporate career, you can't just jump. Like, again, I did it, a few other people have, and it was OK. But that is not the recommended method. So I just started, got certified as a coach, and I began to really work specifically. It's when I had my son, Josh, who's now 16. But I had saved to take a year off for maternity leave. And it was really during that time, when he was really little, when I actually got very creatively inspired to, to write and start my blog. And like, as I got into it, that's where I discovered I really had a knack for understanding the specific needs of people who were in corporate, and then in putting together more of a structure and a plan to help them do that work successfully. And then, as Josh got older, I ended up, you know, doing more coaching work, and then ended up working with thousands of people really throughout the years, to where I got very familiar with it.

So, you know, it's interesting, because in, at the appointment that I was at this morning, it was actually a doctor's office. Nothing major. But I was talking to the office manager and I said to her, I'm seeing you at the front desk instead of the ladies that I normally see. What's going on? And she said, oh, you know, job changing, people moving on. I knew exactly what she was saying, but not saying this concept of the Great Resignation.

Mm-hmm.

And she said, well, what, what do you think is causing all this? And I said, well, there's a lot of factors, but underneath, people now have the affordability to think about their careers. I said, for many reasons. One is unemployment. Two is the pandemic. And I'm not sure which comes first, but people are saying, is this company— does this company represent my moral standings? And that question really has not been asked a lot. I mean, this new generation, Gen X, does ask that question, but—

Uh-huh.

Baby boomers and early Gen Xers and Gen Ys, It wasn't something that you would ask what your salary is going to be, but you never looked underneath the sheets in those terms. So now people are saying, you know, I'm not sure I can find what I'm looking for inside anyplace else. Maybe I have to create it.

Hmm.

So we have now almost a generation, an overlapping generation, which is weird, generations of people who are saying, I need to have my own organization. I need to have my own company. Are you seeing that?

I've been seeing it for many years. Yeah, I mean, since 2005, when I, when I wrote, when I started my blog, I wrote a post in 2006 called An Open Letter to CEOs Across the corporate world. And it ended up being a really seminal post. I shared it on a whim one night with Guy Kawasaki, who's an author and venture capitalist and the evangelist at Canva. And at that time, in 2006, I loved his blog and loved what he wrote about. And I just, I didn't know him. I had a very, very, very small readership, probably 20 people, including my dad, sister and best friend. It was, but I wrote this post, and it really was, I'll never forget, because I was walking my son around our neighborhood in a stroller. And I had spent 10 good years, like really deep inside companies with leadership teams, with looking at what leaders were doing, talking with employees, doing leadership development, change management. And I really did see a lot of dysfunctional patterns. And I saw, because I've learned, I have a bit of a future vision skill of really seeing things maybe a little bit before they come and hit the mainstream. I just knew with a lot of trends that were happening with creative entrepreneurship and the ways that people were working, early writers like Dan Pink, who wrote Free Agent Nation, and Fast Company, the magazine that was like beginning to write about this new world of work, I just really knew that there were trends that were happening that, that corporate leaders were not fully grasping. And so I wrote this post. I shared it with Guy Kawasaki. I said, I just, I've never met you. I love your work. I thought you might enjoy this. And he wrote me back 10 minutes later. This was about 10 o'clock at night, when my tiny baby was sleeping. And he said, I love it. Can you make it a Top 10 list? I had about 4 points initially. And so he shared it on his blog the next day, and it went massively viral, like around the world. I got Emails, hundreds of emails from all over and tons and tons of shares. And I, I joke with him now— we've become friends after all these years— and he ended up writing the foreword to the book. But it was like that experience was one where it was, his blog was really the perfect watering hole that had an audience that was really ready to hear those themes. And as I go back now, I wrote that post, which is still live on Escape from Cubicle Nation, if anybody wants to Google it, called An Open Letter to CXOs Across the Corporate World. The 10 points that are there still 100% apply to certain structural things, I think, that leaders are not still taking action around. And so, yes, we have had additional impacts, like just the growth of all of the different tools now that make it so much easier to start a business than you could in 2005 or 2006, where people are having a reckoning, you know, social reckonings, racial reckonings, when you realize sometimes there are systemic inequities for, for many folks where they just say, I'm not going to be in environments anymore where I'm not respected, appreciated and promoted and given opportunity. You have people who have experienced a really close relationship with death and loss and grief and losing family members and community members. And I think it's these factors together, That really say, you know, for a lot of people that they're, they're really not willing to be in a certain situation. I said this way back when, and I say it now: hating your job intensely is not a business plan.

I'm sorry to laugh, but that is an ideal expression. Ideal.

That's the flaw many times if we just look at leaving something because we really don't like it. And I get it. And I, you are completely reasonable for thinking that. The process that you might, and the path that you might take to really understand entrepreneurship and what's actually involved in creating a viable business is very different than just making a shift in your career where you might decide to take a different position or move to another company. I'm a huge fan of side hustles, and actually been writing about it since way back, like in 2006. And when you are able to work on a plan on the side to see, do you have a business that people are interested in actually paying you for? Do you have a viable business idea that has a, a deep market that's going to make it a sustainable business? Then you can really be working on it on the side. But that's the part that always makes me nervous. When I just hear, you know, of people up and quitting, if they haven't really done some analysis about what's their financial situation, what are different options for what they're doing. And frankly, when I wrote Body of Work, one of the reasons why I wrote that book is because I saw that people were very much in the all-or-nothing entrepreneurship space. After I started and wrote Escape from Cubicle Nation, so many people were coming into the space, which was great. There became more this feeling like you're only creative and cool if you work for yourself, which is ridiculous. There are amazing people who are super happy who work for universities and nonprofits and associations and smaller firms. There's nothing magical about working for yourself at all. I argue you want to think about what do you want to build? What kind of body of work do you want to build? If you want to create something purely from your own mind and to create just your own business with a product or a service, that's great. There's a path for that that actually takes quite a bit of rigor and work to get rolling. In other times, you can say, I really am interested in building this thing. And maybe I just really don't like the company that I'm working for, but it would be super interesting to do it in a smaller, maybe more flexible kind of a firm. So again, You are justified if you're listening and you're feeling really frustrated and overwhelmed and you want to leave. That's— listen to your heart. But listen to your heart and make a plan and follow the plan. Because nobody likes to be— I just can't stand to see somebody who made a big leap and sometimes made a big speech and let everybody know they were never going back. And then your business doesn't work out exactly as you thought it would. And that's where sometimes is people feel embarrassed or shame going back, of which I also say, don't ever feel shame. All work is honorable. Fundamentally, what you do to take care of yourself and your, and your family, if you have one, is always honorable. There is no judgment in what you do at all. But in the long term, you want to create these viable paths that allow you to create meaningful work.

You know, I'm smiling, and I'm agreeing. And I probably did a Exactly what you would advise not to do.

Well, me too. So, so I'm saying don't do what we did. I mean, we're all right, but don't, don't do it the hard way.

Exactly. And you know what, there are times when you do have to do it the hard way. But I think one of the most important things that you said is don't be afraid to say it did not work, and either go back or try something different? Because the worst thing, I believe, is to do nothing.

Yeah, I agree.

And then the second worst thing, I believe, is to do something and not have a plan if it doesn't work out. I think that's almost more important than having a plan to proceed. And I'm not talking about actually having it in paper, although some people that would be best. But have in your mind an escape clause and say, hey, or know that you're the kind of person, as we were talking about in the beginning, that— which I am— I leap first and then figure out what I— where I'm gonna land. But I know—

Same, same.

That I would not have a problem standing up dusting myself off and leaping again, right? Because it's all part of the great experiment for me. And I've just seen too many people crushed by failure. And my book, Failure Is Not an Option to Stop.

That's right. It's a necessary It's completely natural and mandatory part of doing new things. You cannot skip it. Not everything's going to work ever, ever, ever.

And even when it works, there are things that will go wrong.

That's right.

Right. And but, but I want to, I want to talk honestly about the difference, though, between people of color and white people. And, you know, I just call it like it is. Everybody's used to me. I think that it's much easier for people who are not of color to pick yourself up and start again. It's much easier to say, hey, this didn't work, let's go, let's go next. And it's much easier to leave a situation that is just not working in terms of working for somebody else. I know that I did that for way too many years.

Yeah.

For fear, for fear that I could not succeed someplace else or doing my own thing. And that's where you really need your own personal board of directors. You need to read all of Pamela's books. You need to have that courage to You need to have the courage to quit. You need to have the courage to move on.

Well, yeah, I mean, and I think it's— and I only speak in my own identity, right, from my own experience of what it is that I've had here at the Learning Lab and so much work that we've done with entrepreneurs of color, in particular Native and Black entrepreneurs, which are 2 communities that we serve in a really deep way. The kinds of stories that I've heard, and to me, what's so important about an approach, when, first of all, for me, as a white woman author, if I'm giving advice, and I'm just saying, hey, this is what I did, here's my method, follow this method. If I'm not, if I don't have an analysis about understanding the dynamics of race, class, right, in this country, a history, an understanding of How might our experience be different for you and I if we're literally just walking down the street, if you come here, right, to visit? And if I'm just walking down the street, if you're walking down the street, what is your lived experience of how the world reacts to you, knowing nothing about you and how amazing you are, right, and all of your contributions? Depending upon where you are, there are going to be situations where you feel completely welcome, And, and included and brought in. There are other situations where you're not going to feel that way. And to me, understanding that, like, to not have an analysis about that, when thinking, for me as a business coach or a writer, to not understand that there's discernment, there's historical situation of access to funding, of perceptions that people have about trustworthiness, creditworthiness. The data speaks for us that, that—

Right.

somebody of color can go into a bank and apply for a loan with exactly the same credit and history and, you know, job and so forth as a counterpart— same thing for real estate— and there will be different decisions made that do have, that are related to systemic inequity. So to me, that part is really important to have an analysis about that. And each person within communities and each individual is going to have their own understanding of identity, how they walk through the world, what their point of view is, and how they navigate those kinds of things, right? That's why there's never like a blanket statement, you know, that everybody should do this, even within community. That's what I've learned of, you know, talking with a lot of different folks. So within that context, then, yes, when you're aware of it, you understand kind of how you walk through the world, then having a lot of conscious creation of community around you. When you look at really, you know, who do I want to have as inspiration? Who do I want to have as allies? One of the reasons why we opened the Main Street Learning Lab is I did a 23-city tour as I was doing early research for The Widest Net. This was in 2015, really visiting a lot of places I had done book launches before and book events. And I really wanted to like test the model and, and talk to folks around the country before writing the book. And for some reason, I asked a question at the very first location in Berkeley, California: How many of you have ever seen a Native American business presenter that was presenting a business topic at a business conference? And I asked that same question in 23 different cities.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm talking Chicago, Atlanta, Raleigh, you know, Sioux Falls, New York, D.C., San Francisco. Everywhere. And only 7 people ever had. And 4 of them were in Vancouver, Canada.

Hmm.

So I was like, it is not because there are not tremendously talented business experts in the Native community. When my husband had a successful heavy equipment construction business for years, I would go in huge hotel rooms filled with all kinds of Native business experts. So the problem was not that they didn't exist; that there was absolutely zero visibility. And there was no representation whatsoever. So that's part of where my husband and I, when I got back from the tour, and it just happened to be one of those questions I asked for some reason the first time and then consistently, it became very, very important to us, where we're like, out of all these very educated people who in general are inclusive, you know, in my general community, people who care about such issues, if they have never seen that, what are we going to do to ensure that our kids, our nieces and nephews, our extended families are going to see the leadership that exists? And then how can we make sure that our broader community here in Mesa and then in Arizona are really seeing the, you know, the amazing leadership that's here? So that, that's another example. When you look at the history, I know you have, for a lot of African Americans, for Native Americans, there was a governmental policy of invisibility, right? Like, specifically designed—

Right.

to quiet the history and the genocide that happened. I mean, it gets to a place that's spiritually, emotionally very devastating and overwhelming when you begin to think about that. But it's the truth, and we got to know the truth if we want to do something to change it.

And what's the other thing that I appreciate is that oftentimes when we are part of an oppressed group, we don't have the opportunity to look out and see that there are other oppressed groups, right? We think of it as it's mine, right? And I think that, you know, in my conversations, for example, with Asian folks over Asian hate, one of the biggest problems that I saw was that people of color, meaning Black people, didn't know, didn't recognize, and may not want to hear about Asian hurt because our hurt is so deep, right?

Yeah.

And so if, if we could all just understand the hurt that's in each of us for different reasons, which is the work that I try to do at WE Workplace Equity equity and equality, then we'd be so much better off as a nation.

Yeah.

But I want to go back to talking about having the ability, the strength to start your own business, uh, even if it's with somebody else. You know, I think one of the misconceptions is— and you, you touched on it, and I wrote about it many years ago Plan B for the Wall Street Journal, is we think that it's all or nothing.

Mm-hmm.

And it doesn't have to be all or nothing. It can be dipping your toes in. Hey, when I started, when I talked about careers, I started as a career counselor, and I was with General Foods in marketing at the time. And so clearly that was more than a 9-to-7 job, right?

Mm-hmm.

But I wanted so much to move out of that space that what I did is I branded myself as a career counselor who only worked in the evenings and weekends. Because it was important if you were job searching to spend the days looking for a job.

Yes.

So I branded myself in a space that was not being utilized and was quite successful, but I was working during the day. That was the reason why I did it, right? So I think that— and, and also I was taking classes and programs. I would take time, take my vacation time, and learn as much as I could about the new field that I wanted to be in. I would take vacation— here's what I would do. Instead of taking it as a week or 2 weeks, I think I was up to 4 weeks at the time.

Hmm.

I would take it in days, and I would piggyback it to weekends so I could study, or I piggyback it. I take it when there was a program that I would learn something about in the field, and— or I would take it to work on a special coaching assignment. And I remember working on one with the great Peter Pritchett. And, and so it was fabulous. I actually had a chance to experience having my own company and In a small way, before I left General Foods.

So smart. So smart to do that.

Yeah. And if it didn't work out, I had a job, right? And you know what, my clients knew that I was doing this. And they love the fact that I had real corporate experience and can talk. So it's all about how do you Positioning. Positioning: The Battlefield for the Mind is one of the best books I've ever read. If you take, take that— and it's an oldie, it's an oldie but a goodie— uh, if you take those concepts and apply them, there's so many things you can do to bring happiness into your life, right? You don't have to sit and wait for the great Happiness Day. Yeah, start working on pieces. And, you know, your book talks about steps you can take in building your connections. Let's, let's talk a little bit about that. What are some of the suggestions that you give for building your connections?

So in the, the method within The Widest Net, there's different ways that we look at business, and really even in careers. And I call it the empire culture versus ecosystem culture. So in empire culture, we literally do talk about how I want to build an empire, or we think, if I want to position myself as a successful career person, I need to distinguish myself as just being the only one, the best. And I have competitors that I'm comparing myself to. And then if I have a business, it really does become about me just making the case that I want to be bringing everybody to me. There tends to be more— we talk with our community in terms terms of fans and followers, rather than being peers and collaborators. And in the empire model, in my own estimation, my own personal taste, I'm not really a fan of things like crushing people and creating a totally dominant model. Empires have been great for a few people at the top, but they have not been great for most people in those systems. Instead, I really look at ecosystems. And this is for community, local work that we do here in Mesa, Or when I'm working with business owners about building an audience or a community, everything is centered around, who is your ideal customer? Who is that person who you're excited to serve with your work? And again, this could be the same case if you are somebody who works in a company and you're a passionate, you know, you're a marketing professional like you were, where you're passionate about that craft, then that person is in your, whoever be your ideal customer, is in the center of the ecosystem, they are surrounded by smart people, media sites, companies that make products that help them solve their problem, associations, all of these different players that actually help them to solve their problem. So your job, when you're really looking to seed and build community, is really based on you becoming better at what you do. What's your particular point of view about how you help solve the problem for your clients? Because you are part of that ecosystem, but then also getting to know the other peers and partners. When you do that around the work, when it's like, if you and I were, were architects and designers, and we were super passionate about learning the most interesting, effective techniques around design and architecture and new emerging green trends and like all these things, you and I could passionately be sharing information back and forth with each other. We probably would like watch TED Talks about architecture. We We would read books, and we would gather that. We would go to events and conferences that had experts that spoke on this topic, because our shared passion, our collaboration, is around that body of work and improving ourselves and contributing to it. To me, it's just so much of a more, frankly, enjoyable way to look at building networks. Because if we just look at it apart from the work itself, it's just like, how can I get you to like me? And maybe just help me and do whatever I want you to do, help promote a book or help, you know, promote a product, whatever I'm doing. It, we can like each other as people, and that's wonderful where that happens. I find what's really powerful is where you actually share a mission to be solving a really important problem in the world. And then you have truly peers, collaborators, co-conspirators, right, people who are helping and contributing to that field. When you do more of that strategic analysis about who are the very best players in that field, in that ecosystem, that gives you a direct map for knowing the kinds of places where you want to be connecting. And where you're doing that fresh work to contribute to the current, that current work, naturally, opportunities come. I don't know if you find that. But to me, I'm like, I'm just doing my work. I'm fascinated. I can talk about community all day, economics development, inclusion. And like when I meet people who are equally passionate, we just start jamming out. And inevitably, they will say, oh, have you read this book? And let me introduce you to this person. Like, it naturally follows where your focus is on what it is that you're building. So to me, it, you conceptually, that's the way that you approach it. And then very tactically, it can start with something really simple, like identifying somebody who you consider to be an amazing contributor in this space that you're passionate about. And you can reach out and just send them a love letter and say, I think your work is totally amazing. When you wrote that book on XYZ, this was so powerful for me. Thank you for doing that. And that little, what I call a tiny marketing action, can be a good way sometimes to begin to seed. And then you can do more specific things like we're doing right now. We've never spoken before this time. We met through our mutual friend Dori Clark on a LinkedIn Live.

Yeah.

you reached out and said, hey, let's continue the conversation. That's the way that these connections are really sparked.

I love what you're saying more than what I could tell you, because I find in the business world, we— so many people are focused on self. I have to do this, I have to eliminate— here, let me tell you a story. When I started the Association of corporate executive coaches. I was very lucky to be introduced to a woman called Barbara Singer.

Hmm.

And Barbara became one of my mentors. And I remember calling her one day and saying, my competition is copying me and they have more money than me. And she laughed and she said, wrong focus. And I said, what are you talking about? And I mean, I thought, she's my mentor, I could tell her these things, right? I can get advice. She said, focus on your goal. You have an amazing goal, which is to set apart corporate executive coaches who, as you say, are enterprise-wide business partners from the rest of the fray.

Hmm.

She said, just focus on that.

That's right.

And I thought about a book that I had read called Blue Ocean Strategy, which is one— it's like one of my Bibles, right? And I said, all right, I'm gonna do that. And this was, what, 8 years ago? And that's when my focus was on building ACEC, not in terms of number of members, but in terms of our charge. Enterprise-wide business partners. Recently I was nominated— no, I made the Thinkers50 list, the shortlist.

Yes, that is so fantastic and well deserved. Congratulations.

Thank you. And it was for the work that I'm doing, staying focused on really executive coaches in a new zone. And that zone of enterprise-wide business partnership, we focus on the client and what will they see, not us. What will they see as a return on investment from us understanding their competitive framework, what makes them think, what charges them? Not just on solving the one little issue about leadership. That's not what our role is. Our role is to understand all the triggers in that role. So here's where I'm agreeing with you wholeheartedly. You must stay focused on what it is you want to do, and you must reach out to people.

That's right.

Don't assume that the reach out is going to be negatively received, because all of that stuff comes later. Take the risk of reaching out, see if you can develop a relationship. And if the relationship goes off the wire, you can always cut and delete. But you can't always gain a really good relationship if you don't try.

It's really true. And it's so powerful with your example, because when you're really focused on what the work itself is, that, and the customer and/or that person who you're trying to help. The work is always harder. It always requires more of us.

Yes.

There's no possible way, even if I wanted to, I could ever solve every problem that a small business owner has. I need to have my peers and collaborators who are leaning in fully, with a full business, to be contributing to that field. So that center and that focus is one that makes so much sense To keep your focus on the work itself, which, by definition, is what your clients are interested in. Because they're like, this isn't a person who keeps trying to position themselves and, you know, being fancy and trying to look good. As my teenagers will say, Mom, like, don't talk about it; be about it. Like, you have to be in it!

Yeah!

Teenagers are so wise, right? Like, that, that's what it is. And I find, always have found, That clients resonate so much, where they know that you are actually interested in really helping them to solve their problem. And then by default, when you're in that work, and you're, you're really wrestling with it and coming up with some solutions, then you are going to be creating better work than if you're just looking over your shoulder. I mean, all of us have petty jealousy. I'm the first one. That's why we have best friends. Like, you need somebody who you can just be like, I can't believe she had the nerve to— we need that so much, to have that private circle, very private circle, just to go through the human experience of life. Like, it's normal to feel jealousy or competitiveness sometimes. But when you zoom out and you say, why am I really here? Why am I doing this work? Does it matter if, you know, if I'm— my position is such a way where the way people perceive me, which, by the way, we can't control whatsoever at all. And so if instead, I want to say, at the end of my life, when I look back, I want to feel happy and proud of what I left behind me. Is there a legacy? Am I making the world better, more equitable for my kids, for my neighbors? Am I leaving thought leadership that will actually be helpful in constructing a more just and equitable world?

Right.

Like, to me, that's the only measuring stick that I need to play by. And so in order to do that and have a contribution, that's where I'll push myself to say, can you do a little bit more? Could you share more? Could you show up, despite fear sometimes, and move the work forward? Because we never know how long we have, right?

Oh my God, so true. So true. You know, I know that we're sort of running out of time, but I do want to say one thing that I strongly recommend, that those that want to start their own business read Blue Ocean Strategy. You know, Pam and I had such a great experience. This is in addition to all of Pam's books. But Blue Ocean Strategy talks about not, not going after your competition when you're opening your own business. It's finding out what's the missing link that your competition is not covering.

That's right.

Guess what? Your competition can then support you, right? It— and you rest easier knowing that you own that lane, right? You can get so creative. And along the way, when you really own a lane, your competition will come and say, good job. Trust me, I've been there and I'm doing it. Yeah.

And there are some who may not, who may be so immersed right within their own worldview, which is okay, that they— it may be hard for them to say. Like, that's where you, you, you can know it, you could know deep in your heart and soul, that you're doing the right work for the right reasons.

Yes.

And, you know, it's so enjoyable when over time you can have a bit of vindication. I think part of me being around the planet now, you know, for 55 years, I, I can focus less. I found in my younger years, I might want to wait a little bit or like, did anybody see that? Did you see what I did? Like, did you read that? And now it's like, that's not, that's not really what matters. Like, I've made a contribution. Let me show up today and continue to make it in a bigger small way. And I, you know, the argument I make is, if somebody's totally into building an empire, more power to you. Like, if that's super motivating to you, and you're not harming anybody actively— let's just be clear about that— you're not actively harming everybody. Not everybody is about building community; not everybody shares those same kind of values. And that's OK.

Yes.

Just don't cause harm. But I will say, for a lot of other people, it actually is so much more enjoyable. To have collaborators, to not have to have every single answer, but to have a circle where you can go and say, you know what, I don't know, but I'll find out, and have some of the best folks in the world who can, who can give you answers that are going to help your clients solve their problems.

Well, you know, that's exactly the reason why I started as a hobby. This is a hobby. It's called the Women's Power Pack group. And it's a very small group of women who are charged with supporting each other in business. That's it. There's no discussion about husbands, children, boyfriend, health. It's about how to move your business to the next level with the support of other strong business women.

Mm.

Because I saw this need for community with a focus. Now, there's one other thing that I want to say, and I think it sums up what Pam and I have been discussing. Be careful if you go out on your own business. And I've seen this. I've worked with a client who did this. The business was extremely successful, but he had no heart for the business.

Hmm.

No passion for the business. He was able to get funding. The business is successful. It's global. And he's miserable. Don't exchange one misery for another.

Mm-hmm. That's right.

You can be miserable working for yourself, and you can be equally miserable working for somebody else. If you don't have the mindset of, I want to be happy in what I'm doing. Yeah. Pam, do you have any final words to talk to us about or say?

Well, I just enjoy the conversation. And I really, you know, always appreciate hearing different nuances and perspectives, you know, along this, along this work. If I If I could wave a magic wand, I would just want more people to know that there are so many more opportunities than we think that there are. I would describe to clients in the early days of Escape from Cubicle Nation, I used to love to read the Narnia Chronicles. And so The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. And I would say, when we were working together, and they were still employed in a corporate setting, I would say, like, It, it's so hard to explain until you actually leave and you start a business. What I'm talking about is going to sound like gibberish. But once you leave and you go through that wardrobe and you go into Narnia, you will be shocked at all of the amazing collaborative, creative people opportunities that are there. So we don't see things sometimes; we don't see opportunity. And it's understandable. It's part of why I have a passion of knowing for folks that might be in corporate and like it and want to stay there. That is so fantastic. There's nothing wrong with that. Like, that is a really great choice.

Yes.

If you learn more and you build relationships with folks who are in entrepreneurship, it could be a great source of new talent. We're talking all about the Great Resignation, not having new talent. They could be recommending folks who want to work for you. You could have access and opportunities. You can share lessons from corporate into folks who are in entrepreneurship. So just to know that there are so many opportunities. And I think if we get out of that siloed thinking sometimes, If you have to choose, either you're in this world or you're in that world, that's the part I think collectively, and especially in our local communities, that's going to make it a lot easier.

We just got Jamel Lindo. Forgive me if I pronounce your name wrong. Jamel says, I just had to take a quick moment to get a little dose of CB. A little goes a long way. Yeah. I'm in and out today. Happy I came through. Such a great point around passion and business. It's a key differentiator always. Pam, thank you for your closing thoughts around an awareness to opportunities. Another great nugget. Thanks to you both. Oh, Jamel, I love you. Don't tell my husband. I love what you Pam, you know, you have to come back, as I said, and you're gonna have to give us more nuggets from your books, even though we're not supposed to market them.

That's right, we won't talk about it, but I would love to. Just say the word, I'm not going anywhere. The internet is everywhere, so if I happen to be in a castle in Scotland or something, I will still come join your—

and I have to tell you, you have You have the luckiest children in the world to have you as a mom.

Oh wow, I feel the same about them. We have a good time as a family. I'm so thankful for that. We really enjoy each other, so I'm, I'm really thankful.

How powerful. How powerful is that? Hey audience, please read Pam's books. You know, we're talking about a PhD in a book. And, you know, whether you want to go or whether you want to stay, whether you're in between decisions, read her books. Be honest with yourself and make it happen. That's my secret for today. You can make it happen. You know, you can do it. You have two women, one white, one black, telling you you can do it. So as Nike says, just do it. Stay, go, make a decision, and go for it. Until I see you again, I'm not sure if I'm on Thursday or next Tuesday, but remember, follow me on LinkedIn. Twelve noon Mount. Standard Time. This, this week we were a little bit different on our timing, but it's 12 noon. Just tune in. If I'm there, I'm there. That's life, right? We have fun. Thank you so much for being here today. Hey, Jamel, I'm gonna look for you all the time now. Okay, bye now.

Thank you.

Thank you, Pam. Awesome. Hang tight now.