CB Bowman LIVE! Challenges of the C-Suite: Guest Eugene Frazier, Episode 30

This is CB Bowman Live on Thursdays, and you know, on Thursdays we talk about workplace equity and equality. And we have a phenomenal guest in that space who is Eugene Fraser. And Eugene is a fellow MG100 member, so I just didn't bump into him, you know, at Saks Fifth Avenue. Or the Jaguar dealership, you know. We have known each other and we are working together and he is just a fantastic human being. But I will warn you, it's going to be hard for me to get in a word edgewise because Eugene can talk. So I'm just saying.

You're setting a precedent, P.D.

I'm laying the groundwork here.

You're setting a precedent. So I'll have to weather that.

You have to own it. You have to own it, Eugene. So with that, welcome Eugene. Welcome everybody. And Eugene, please introduce yourself.

Well, on a brief note before I get into introduction for me, see, this is an example. Uh, I have to say, CB, that before I met you in MG100 and the period of time we've been working together. I've been an admirer of yours since 2014, and I used to always watch you on LinkedIn and various platforms that you were doing what you do extremely well, and I was very impressed with that. That excites me to be here today. Oh, thank you. And so I just want to say that. And briefly, in terms of who I am, E.F. Choiseul and Associates. I'm doing a lot of work right now in a combination of 3 spaces: merger, acquisition, and integration as it relates to transformation of people and organizations. And of course, embedded in all of that is D&I-related things and lots of opportunities to course correct and to guide leadership in a variety of different ways. I am also in that space of just leadership in general around training and development, and I am considered to be a training and development firm. I'm actively cultivating, creating curriculum, certifying that curriculum to put into environments where I'm doing transformation work. And the last but not least piece, I'm actively engaged in executive coaching. Wow. Okay.

I just ran out of paper. And we're getting a little bit of an echo here. So I'm going to try to close any other documents that I have open and see if that helps.

Okay.

Let's see, I've closed Zoom, um, and I'm gonna play with my mic a little bit here and hope for the best.

Okay, we'll weather that one too. I've closed everything on this end, so you have my undivided attention, CB.

Oh, you know, you are just such a charmer. And good thing my husband isn't here. Okay, let's get back. Okay, uh, so Joan is saying hi from San Diego. Uh, Joan Kling, I believe, is her name— her last name, K-L-I-N-G. Do you know Joan?

I do not know Joan.

Okay, well, we know Joan now, so she's signing in. Hi, Joan! Ask us a question as we move forward. So audience, notice today I'm also dressed very casually. She said very charming. Oh, she's a nice person. Okay, we have to bring her into our circle. So, okay, let's start with Eugene. As a Black man in the United States, how did you set your course in life? to be as successful as you are now. And I want to talk about some of the blocks that you have faced, because that always fascinates people. Oh, she says great earrings. Thank you, TJ Maxx. That always fascinates people in terms of dealing with their own roadblocks. to know how successful people have overcome them. So first, tell us about how you set your course as a young man. Not that you're not still young.

Well, I am, I am moving in that opposite direction, but you're only as young and as vibrant as your mind leads you through life, because that is indeed the guide. I will say, CB, That's a really intensified question because, like most African American men in today's society, you have, you have to weather a whole lot of storms to get where you have your destination set for. And once you get to what you call your destination, isn't truly a destination, it's just part of the journey. And so I, I would just say from my perspective, CB, one of the key things coming from a very humble background, I realized at a very early age, I was raised by my grandmother, my mother was around, my father wasn't there, so I was also one of those individuals who were raised by strong African American women. And that for me really was my true grounding. And so in the midst of some of that, I picked up some things that most African American men, or men in general, would never accept or even verbalize. I, by being raised by very strong Black women, somehow developed what I call female antennas. And those female antennas really gave me a perspective, insight, and a level of awareness that allowed me to see things that average people don't see. And CB, I have to admit that I have allowed my past to influence my present and my future by leveraging that tool. And that tool is more around how I connect, being sensitive to my environment, understanding what the vibrations are that exist around me, both verbal, nonverbal, and things that are not even talked about. That has really moved me through a variety of places. And I would just say—

So here's the thing that I loved about what you said is that you took things from your past that were positive and you used them to propel you forward versus taking things from your past that may have been problematic and use that to stop you.

Yes. Absolutely correct. And I would say to everyone—

What gave you the strength to do that? What gave you the knowledge to do that?

Well, when you're dealing with diversity, and a lot of people on this call are in that space, and they're also doing coaching, some kind of leadership-related activity, what's really important to understand is that you can get paralyzed by your fears and bad experiences. And I made a conscious choice that if anything was going to move forward and was going to grow and evolve, it was strictly up to me. And it's kind of like being able to move past— and as you know, CB, I have a therapeutic background as well, and I use all of the stuff I've taught my clients and patience when I had to sit with them, because what I said to myself at that time, okay, Eugene, you could get mired down and be very angry and frustrated 24/7 because of everything happening. And it's not that it was in the past, it was in my present, and it was also in my future. But leveraging the bad things isn't an option. And wasn't an option for me, because I needed to free myself so that it opened my mindset and put me in a position where I would be open to anyone that didn't look like me, those who look like me, but still operating in a premise where I know where I am. And a lot of that comes from really beginning to know yourself. And that's a journey in itself.

But Eugene, you're talking about very adult-like decisions. I want to get to when you were a young kid, when you were 10 years old, 5 years old. What were the triggers that led you down this positive path? And I know you say that you were raised by strong women and Shout out to strong Black women. But beyond that, there was something in you, something in your mind that gave you the power to recognize these— your abilities and your assets and to recognize right from wrong in terms of what was going to hold you back. What was that? 10 years old, 5 years old, what were you thinking?

Well, uh, you really nailed it to the head here. And CB, I tell you, she's the kind of person that will get to the core whether you like it or not. And so I appreciate that about you. But let me start by saying, at a very early age, I can remember back in 2nd grade, actually. There was something that happened to me back then that really began to change my life, and it was more from an education standpoint. And then I'll add some other pieces and give you some context in terms of ages. But a 2nd grade teacher— I had some homework to do, and the 2nd grade teacher called me out on the next day, and she said, everybody turn in your homework, and turn it in. And she looked at the homework, and mine was fractionally done, it wasn't fully complete. And she said— and her name was Miss Pettus— she says, Mr. Frazier, come here. And so I walked up front in the school room, and this was, by the way, in the Deep South. It was one room that had 6 grades in it, divided by curtains. And so she said to me, you didn't do this homework. And I heard my mother and my grandmother say, boy, don't you ever say anything inappropriate to adults. So I said, I thought I did my homework. And she said, okay. She says, I need you to go over in that corner, sit in that chair until I call you. And it was supposed to be a 5-minute timeout. It felt like 5 years. And sorry, I felt emotional about it then. And that set a premise for me. In my life, and she said something to me, and I didn't put it all together until much later in life. She says, "Mr. Fraser, if you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?" And I have utilized that mantra and phraseology throughout my entire career. career and my entire life. And so I don't like doing anything marginally if I can't master it.

Give us that again. If you don't have time to do it right—

If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

Have time to do it over.

The other key thing that also propelled that Being of very humble means, at age 12, I was doing manual labor, mixing mortar for brick masons, little tiny thing going up and down ladders with 100-pound shingles on my shoulder to give to roofers while they were roofing houses, and would literally work for $5 to $6 a day. And I made a decision at that particular time in life that under no circumstances do I want to be at the feet and heel of anyone from a labor perspective. So it was never really talked about or pushed as it relates to education, but I had a thirst always to know as much as I could know and to leverage and to utilize that in any way I could. And coming up in the Deep South— and I'll give a little history lesson here along the way— the Black schools that I was in, as I talked about this one-room house with curtains in it and the heat for it, we had to go out and we would take turns as kids going out and getting coal in the yard to bring it back and put it into a potbelly stove.

Wow.

In conjunction with that, going from one school to the next before segregation occurred, those environments, we would have books that would be anywhere between 5 to 7 years behind in terms of newness, and they were— some pages were missing, things were torn, somewhat disheveled. And what I realized in life was that When those pages were missing and the 5 to 7 years were behind, I always grew up feeling like I was behind, and I was always looking at, uh, how do I close that gap? And before other people would identify shortcomings, I would look for ways to fill in those gaps. And CB, that's kind of the core of how I was reared up and the— and what I had to endure in order to kind of move forward for here. Those were my foundations.

Incredibly, incredibly powerful. And I need to ask the question, Mrs. Pettus, was she white or Black?

She was Black.

Wow, I love the story. I love the story. You know, it's just, it touches my heart. I was raised different from you as a child, but my mom was my Mrs. Pettus. And talk about a tough broad. Whoa. And you never saw it coming.

Yep.

Every single one of the sisters, you never saw it coming. I remember when I answered my teacher back in school, and my teacher wrote a letter home to my mother. She was white, and my mother took me aside and said, "When I am not with you, when you're in school." Your teacher is your mother, and I know damn well you would never answer me back because you would be picking yourself up off the floor.

Absolutely.

And I got the beating of my life for answering my teacher back. It did not stop there. My mother then went to school— oh, when I answered my teacher back, she told me to go sit in the corner. Mrs. Pettis, right? And I didn't want to do it because I was a proud Black kid. So my mother came to school, she made me apologize to the teacher, I got a beating in front of my classmates, and I had to sit in the corner.

Hmm.

I never ever answered a dope back again. I—

that's impactful.

Respect. Yeah. And I could have took it the other way, right? Revenge, upset, anger. This woman caused this rift in the family and stuff. But I'll tell you what, my mother put on such a front, I didn't even dare think about that. And I have to tell you, I would have chose a different demonstration of authority, but you know what? It got me here.

Absolutely.

And so, you know, shout out to my mom.

Absolutely. I would, uh, share one last thing that I think is pretty significant.

Uh, one of the key things, uh, and by the way, I am not advocating beating your children. Let's just be clear.

No, that, that, that's a different, uh, podcast.

Yeah, exactly.

Uh, so one of the key things is, uh, doing that also during that period. And, uh, if anyone knows, uh, when you look at whether you are an extrovert versus an introvert, I am an introvert, and I can remember all the way back to grade school, 1 through 6, obviously, and notes would come home in my book bag saying to my grandmother that he sits by himself, he doesn't interact with the other kids. Uh, And I'm not sure what the problem is. And what they didn't realize is that I am an introvert, I was one then, and what I realized, and give you some of the phraseology that was used, he seemed to only move and operate to the beat of his own drum.

That's what we do as introverts!

What I— and I grew up, quite honestly, I had very few heroes in life because I wasn't around them. For the men in my life, they were my uncles on my mother's side and my father's side, which I was very close with all of them. And so manhood and evolving through life, that helped me really to become who I am. Today. And the, the other thing I would just say is that when you're an introvert and you feel all of the things around you based on those female antennas that I was dealing with, I was always also sought out after by the, the bullies. They wanted to know what I was thinking. And it's odd because that even permeated early into my career. People never could anticipate where I was going to come from, what I was going to do. And there's a very, very creative side to me that I don't necessarily show to someone, but it's my personal space. And then when you're invited in that, the core, then you really have access to a whole lot. But other people see on the outside of that, that they go, there's a light there, there's something there, but they don't know what it is. And takers of the world, uh, throughout my career always wanted to take from me. So, uh, I didn't get disenchanted by that. What I was able to discern was that, uh, and I'll use this from a biblical standpoint, and when they say that if you Desire patience, you don't currently exude it. The other question is, pray for patience. Now, when you pray for it, more opportunity comes for you to practice it.

Mm-hmm.

And so I say, in terms of being able to warn off people who were takers— and by the way, unfortunately, I want to say this to the audience, Our world right now is 80 to 90% takers, and the rest are really good people, and they are very hard to find and sift through. So if you find someone that you, uh, thought process, your value system of who you are, alignment is very, very important. But it's a test and trial perspective. But you have to let go, and this is what I did.

Mm-hmm.

was let go of what I call ill will and put it into the perspective that I needed to experience that because God had a desire for me to be well-rounded.

I like that. Um, you know, I think that there are 2 ways to do it. One is letting go of ill will, and the other one is putting it in a box. so that it doesn't affect the rest, right? I'm not one of letting it go. I'm a true Scorpion twice over. And so I found it was really hard. I was listening to people, good people like yourself, and saying to me, you've got to let it go. And what I found didn't work for me. You know, I'm a Scorpion. I get a strike. And put it away, right? But I always say to people, if you're going to strike, strike so that you go for the win, and hopefully it's a win for both people.

Yes.

So earlier in my life, I learned to strike. Later in my life, I learned to strike so that it's good for both people, and that's really hard to do.

Letting go is hard. in general.

Mm-hmm.

And I want to talk a little bit, and we've talked about kind of how we take the positive— the negative, rather, and turn it into a positive. I want to talk a little bit about in the D&I space, all that has occurred with me and becoming a spokesman. I've done a lot of podcasts around very difficult discussions. I've also spent a lot of time helping people to discern some things that they can communicate. My grandmother said something to me who was also giving me nuggets. She says, and I'll say it in the way that she said it to me when I was growing up, she says, boy, you can say anything you want to say, but it's about how you say it.

Oh, yes.

And so it's really about the messaging and the intentionality, if you will. of doing things. So in this D&I space, it's important for folks out there who are facilitating between people who may be directly opposed to each other in terms of point of origin, where they're at in life, pecking order in terms of senior management versus subordinates and things of that nature. It's always important to understand that at the end of the day, If you're superior and you put yourself in that leadership role, someone else is following you, you're sharing that leadership at the top, you're sharing it at the bottom. And it's not about the control facets that manage that, it's more about can you achieve the outcome for the greater good for all who's involved.

And I would add to that, look at the greater good for yourself. So, so here's another story from my past. You know, I went to all-white schools, basically. And in— at one level, I was in junior high school, and I found out that I had been placed in speech class. And I was very upset. I said— I came home in tears to to my mom and I said, are they trying to tell me that I don't know how to speak? I totally object to this. I want you to go to school and complain, Mom. My mom looked at me and she said, CB, how many other people in your class have to take speech class next year? And I swallowed hard. And I said, all of them, Mom. And she said, you will have your ass in speech class.

Hmm.

This is not about you, CB. This is the leveling up. And everybody in your class has to take it. And you're in with all white kids.

Yes.

What is your problem?

Hmm.

I zipped it quickly. And, you know, I hated the class. Because I am an introvert, and we had to get up in front of people and give speeches. And look where I am now.

Absolutely.

I can speak. I can speak in multiple cultures. When I get off the stage after speaking, people are coming up and talking to me and, yay, CB! And I owe it all to my mom. When she basically said to me, in her way translated, look at the intent of where you're being placed and analyze.

She pushed you beyond your perceived limitations.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

So that's powerful stuff.

I'm telling you, she was a kick-ass mom, right? And I miss her so much.

Yeah, I don't have either one of mine either. They're both gone.

Yeah, my mom and dad are laid to rest together at Arlington National Cemetery. So, but, you know, it's so important for us to communicate to our younger generation Even our peers. You and I have had the honor of being with strong people that actually understand how to interpret and how to move forward and when to move forward and what to say and how to say it. And we still learn every single day.

Absolutely.

And, you know, it's so important for us to communicate that to The younger people coming up, and I know that you have raised 2 strong daughters.

Yes.

What are the key lessons you've taught them?

Well, so I have 2 daughters. My oldest is a pharmacist, and my middle one is a human resource executive. And part of what I've done growing up in a divided or broken family, I would say, where my father wasn't around, I made a conscious decision to leverage all of the conversations I had with my father as a young adult. And by the way, I also toss out there, I left home At age 18. You can't do that. Yeah, I did, and never went back other than to provide additional support to everyone else. But I— when I left home, I needed to have my own space so I could spread my own wings. I didn't have my own bedroom until I was 18. And we were in small environments and things of that nature. And so one of the key things I wanted to do, CB, was to essentially be a model for my children. So I have 2 daughters and a son, and my son is the youngest one. He's 27. And so the key thing was to be intact As a 2-parent household. I've been married for 40 years. I've known my wife— it'll be 41 years this coming May— and have known her for about 47 years.

Wow.

And so that was demonstration of something that they can adhere to and that they have the support structure from all And I took my teaching, and you said it earlier, CB, when you were talking about the upcoming generation, whether we call them Gen Xers or Generation X, however you want to phrase it in terms of phraseology, there's an inherent gap in having a proper frame of reference for what we're dealing with right now. And so I have spent time with my children, giving them my frame of reference from which I came from, and how much more liberated they are based on the efforts that I've strived to provide for them, give them opportunities, things of that nature, but helping them to develop. So what's your frame of reference? What's your legacy going forward?

Mm-hmm.

If you left tomorrow, what would that look like and feel like as people reference you in any form, whether it be professional— professionally or personally? And I would have to tell you that all of them have bits and pieces of myself in their mom. My oldest is a person that I'm actually doing business with right now. We are driving certain key things together based on upbringing, and at the age of 36, I have her investing in self-directed IRAs with me. We do collaborative things in that space, and if any of you know anything about self-directed IRAs, It's about the biblical principles of becoming a lender versus a borrower. And I use all— a lot of those biblical principles in my business processes, and I incorporate family into everything I'm doing. And my middle daughter, uh, the human resource side, she went the, uh, psychological side. So she has a bachelor's in psychology, has a master's in Human Resources with a concentration in Industrial Relations. And so she's currently working with me on engagements that I have on the EEOC side into organizations around effectiveness and efficiency for human resource organizations.

And so your son will be president what year?

Well, um, so, uh, my, uh, what I realized between the, the 2 daughters— my wife is an educator, a retired one now. She was a high school teacher, so she taught the girls how to study, how to emphasize and really drill down on the key things they needed to execute on. And they did all of that flawless and were cum laude in their graduations and things of that nature. And my son, what I realized is that he had the other side of me, which is more of the creative side, more hands-on, etc. So after wasting about somewhere between $86,000 to like $90,000 over a 2-year period, I had to have a tough conversation with him and basically said with him, Unless you get grades up and perform at this level, I'm pulling you. So I exercised some courage at that early stage and said, I'm pulling you, and you roughly have 60 days to determine what you're going to do and where you're going to move forward on, otherwise you're going to have to leave the house. And that—

How old was he?

He was between, uh, 18 and 19.

Damn.

Well, but here's the issue: unless you set the bar high, they shoot low. And from my perspective, I gave him an opportunity to demonstrate whether he wanted to be there, uh, very expensive one, I might add. And then at the same time When he came out though, when he was 17, I was grooming him. And this is when the— let me think— it was when the Twin Towers went down and we went in close to a full-time recession for a period of time.

Yeah, we did.

And we couldn't find— he couldn't find a summer job. So being the entrepreneurial spirit person I am, We had a conversation and I said, okay, you will have one in the next 3 days. And so I developed him a lawn business, and in Chicago you can only do that in the summertime. That was during the period. And then I created what I call a father-son lawn company, and identifying funding college, and we got all kinds of business. So I taught him how to repurpose landscape, certified dirt, dump dirt, backfill, put in mulch, put in plants and things of that nature. And on the 3rd day, I walk in with flyers that I created and business cards, and I said, we're delivering today. And so that really had an effect on him. I found out most recently, he said, you know, Dad, when you gave me that ultimatum, And when you built the lawn business for us to do together, and I was teaching in universities at that time and then consulting part-time in terms of coaching, and I would literally go out and do jobs with him from 12 noon to about 4, and we would go out, spec them out, price them. And I taught him how to go ask for the money. And I also, at the same time, would go to work and teach at night in universities, etc. And during the period of time when he was making a decision on what he was going to go— what he wanted to go do, he said, I think I want to become an electrician. And I said, okay. And then I'm thinking about this kid I'm out there grimy, dirty, and I'm doing as much work or more than he's doing on a lawn job. And I look over at him, he's standing up holding the shovel or the hoe, and he's looking into space daydreaming. And I'm saying, but wait a minute, how are you going to become an electrician and essentially do a job as an electrician and you cut corners? I said, do you know if you cut corners, corners doing electric work, that means that you die. And he said, okay. He said, but I still want to do this. So today he's 26. He went in an accelerated program for a 4-year, got his certification to become an electrician. He's a journeyman now at age 26. And on an average, manage and operate 1 to 2 jobs by himself. And people approach him and say, who's in charge of this job? He looks at them and he says, why? And he says, well, I just wanted to know. He says, I am. What do you need? So that's kind of how my life rolls, CB. Wow!

He is— well, I was going to say he is one lucky child, but all of your children are incredibly lucky because you and your wife take no prisoners.

And well, we didn't have any support structure in Chicago. I moved there when I was 22, and I went to establish foundation, get a job, etc. And I gave myself basically 3 months, and if I didn't find a job, I was going to do a couple of things. I was going to either go into the military, and at that particular time I had done everything to go into the Navy, and in between I had started a program there to open up, open up a barber business. And I don't know whether I've ever mentioned it to you, but CB, I put myself through undergrad school doing 2 things: cutting hair, cosmetologist, and I was a short-order cook on a military post in Montgomery, Alabama. And watching my grandmother— my grandfather when growing up, he was a barber, and using the old hand clippers that you had to operate by hand, doing the bonneton cuts, etc., with the razor and the sharpening of the razor on the belt. I used to sit out in the yard on a wooden block and watch him cut hair all day on Saturday. And I picked it up, I went to school for it, got it, so I basically cut hair For the— and I did a bachelor's program. Typically folks do that in 4 years. I did a bachelor's program in 3 years, and on top of that, I utilized my skills in that barbering and cosmetology space to put me through school.

No, Eugene, you forgot to mention that to me.

Well, there's a whole lot that you're uncovering You ask these deep questions, so I'm giving them to you freely, because I consider you to be an incredible partner, confidante, and essentially a person who is leading and cutting edge in all that you do.

Thank you. Thank you so much. You know, I'm actually speechless, because I had no idea your history was so rich. I'm like, it's like reading a Robert Ludlum book. I'm like, okay, what's the next chapter? So, Eugene, in the work that you're doing now, how do you find— do you find difficulty in getting clients as a Black person?

That's a good question.

Especially, especially around the pricing. Do you find that your white colleagues— and, you know, we have colleagues in common— that they're able to get the higher dollar and, and you're not? And if you are, how do you do it?

Well, I think that there's a twofold answer to that, CB. The first one is, I, in my experience, even to this day, matter of fact, I just dealt with one yesterday. I just solidified a coaching deal, and the person got referred to me by a psychologist and a scientist that I've worked with before developing leadership programs and things of that nature. And through that referral, I was identified as a person that didn't only have coaching skills that I could work with them, but it was far broader and more granular. And so once the person got to me and he looked at LinkedIn and some other things, he's saying, okay, but then when it came time to talk about money, I said, here are my pricing. I gave him the low end, I gave him the middle end, and then I gave him the high end, and I said, here's where I put you based on those 3 continuums. And I said, here's my requirement for that. And then he, for some reason, wanted to negotiate what the dollar amount would be. And I'm— and I said to him, and CB, you'll learn this about me if you haven't already. I call a duck a duck. If he waddles and she waddles, we're going to make sure that everybody knows that the waddling is occurring. And so with that being said, I said to him, I said, you know, you got referred to me. You didn't get referred to me to vet me, to determine whether I am capable or not capable of providing you the services you so desperately need. Now, so if you are willing to step back and let me identify, I'm already giving you a break for these reasons, because the person is coming to me on a personal standpoint, didn't want to go through his job because he didn't want others to see what he's attempting to work on and improve back into the workplace. And so I said, This is what it's going to be. You have a choice on whether you let your— and I called it out, CB— let your biases keep you from making a decision to connect you to incredible breakthroughs going forward, because you went through several people to get to me. What does that say to you? And then I said, The price is going to stay the same. You have to make a decision because I have others beckoning for your slot. And needless to say, I had that deal, right? But sometimes you have to come at it in a real way, and I learned very early on back in the early '80s, early to mid-'80s, when people didn't even know anything about diversity inclusion. They didn't have an idea. I was implementing programs about diversity awareness and things of that nature, and I was working with people to understand how do you identify the elephant in the room. And I would be in major meetings, including board meetings, Mm-hmm. Where there's some dynamics going on. And even the business that I was the human resource executive for, when I would come to a standstill— and we were just talking about this, and it's a very simple decision, but because I'm at the helm of it, somehow we've stalled. And then I stop and I ask the question, What's happening right now? And I said, we're not moving from any discussion we're going to have going forward until I have someone explain to me what's happening right now. Biases, racism. Well, who are you to tell us what to go do, right? And when you hear that, when you can hear a pin drop, And you know that they're all struggling around the table, and 9 times out of 10, I'm one of the only people at the table that looks like me. But I'm— first of all, I'm a big Black guy. And no matter how I show up, I can't hide. I'm not going to try to hide. I can't remove who I am and where I came from. So either you're going to choose to embrace that, or you're going to choose not to participate, but I'm not going to dumb me down or be anybody else because it fits you. So now that's kind of a roundabout way of giving you an answer to what you're saying. And so definitely that discrimination is alive.

Mm-hmm.

And I just gave you an example of kind of how that occurs. Now there are other situations that for some reason broader environments are surprised that you are as skillful as you are. They go, well, how did you get that? And, and one of the things that I would just say, a lot of us grow up in life as African Americans, whether you're female or male or people of color, because that's broadly inclusive, if you will.

Mm-hmm.

What's important to understand is that if you're looking for mentors, you're looking for coaches, in some cases, depending upon where you are in the C-suite mode, you want people that look like you because they're going to have to come with some some general perspective that can help you navigate. On the other hand, if it's not that specific and you don't need that extra boost to move you to that next level, it's important to look at who could provide you the grounding, the infrastructure, and/or the foundation that you need in order to make better decisions, navigate differently, operate differently. And CB, being a part of Motorola, I had the opportunity to innovate quite a few things in that environment. But what really happened was one day I got the opportunity, someone came to me and said, Eugene, we've been watching you for a while and you seem to innovate in spaces just in time before things occur, and we would like to have you do this project.

Mm-hmm.

And it was— and I always tell people, it wasn't someone who looked like me. It was a Caucasian male who saw some level of potential, and he said, if you don't know how to do it, just tell me you're willing. And I'll show you.

Oh, that is so fabulous.

And I leveraged that throughout my career. And, uh, who would have thought a little country boy with very limited means would own his own self-directed IRA firm and be able to navigate and lend money to people to purchase and acquisition, uh, commercial property? But it all came from orientation and/or being a real good listener. So I know CB gave me a hard time very early on that I talk a lot, but I listen a lot too. And it's important that you're not just listening with your ears. You're listening with your thought process. You're looking at the present, you're looking at the past. You're comparing that to where you want to go for the future, because in the middle, it all aligns.

So Eugene, you have had— and I know we're at the top of the hour, but we started a little late— um, you have had great tenacity in your life, and it sounds like you have had some really good mentors. And some really good sponsors?

I wouldn't say sponsors, but in the fullest sense, of course, and everybody's going to bring you something that they need to get done, and they see somebody who has skill set to get it done. Uh, yeah, would you say I would have some level of sponsorship and/or support? Yeah.

Okay, so I mean, this, this man that you just spoke about He probably was in the middle of mentor and sponsorship, and the fact that he said to you, if you don't know, ask, right? That's, that's— and I'm going to trust that you'll go forward, and all you have to do is say, I'm willing. Yes, that's pretty powerful.

I would say so.

How do you recommend young, middle-aged, older, all of us who are Black, how do you recommend that we position ourselves so that we have those people, mentors, sponsors, in between, tap us and say, you're on stage now. Here's, here's something, here's a project, here's an opportunity, here's What have you, and if you don't know, just say I'm willing and I will be there to support you. How do we find those people?

Okay, so I think it all starts at an individual level, and then I'll take us to a broader contingency where you're talking about togetherness, because this can't happen unless you go from the individual side to the merge of the broader entity. So the first thing I would say is early on, I made a conscious decision to not— and T.D. Jakes says it so well. He says, don't show up at work with the intention for people to give you attention. And don't show up with the intention of being recognized for what you're doing because that's your job. It's more about showing up to do your very best, being consistent about how you show up, and if anyone see any value in who you are, they will gravitate to you. And the other key thing is that for folks who are out here, I don't want you to get it twisted. I spent a large portion of my life in the career space, climbing the ladder, doing a variety of things, all of the things that each of us have done that's on this call. But one of the key things that I realized at the end of the day I socialized, educated, trained, and certified myself away from my core. So it's important to realize what your core is. That core is all about what my— what's my purpose in life, and I should shine in my purpose. And you know when you're walking in your purpose when you Can describe it. Let me give you an example. Right now, I feel like I'm walking in my purpose. What that means for me, the people who I choose to associate with feels right. And even those that come into the picture and you can't see the full positiveness, if you will, of why they're there, because there's some negative implications. But they're there to give you a dichotomy between the positive and the negative. We learn and grow from all of those. And right now, uh, I am feeling— and the only way I can describe it is that feeling. And for those of you who may have a spiritual background, when you're in church and you feel like you're communing with God, it feels the same way when you're in your sweet spot with the kind of business that you do, and you are impacting lives in a positive way, you're providing structure and guidance for them in a positive way, that's when you're walking in your purpose. And remember that when you work on the job, that's not your true job. Your true job is after you leave the 9 to 5 or whatever shift you work. It's your purpose-driven job that you are striving to live and operate for. And CB, people will see that, whether you like for them or not.

Mm-hmm. Yes. Wow, it's a powerful way to end our discussion, and I really hate to end it because you've given such great advice, good examples, And you spoke your truth, and you showed us your true north. And for the people that are listening now, or if they listen in the future, this is worth so much. You could take this conversation to the bank, and you will get interest on it. So thank you so much, Eugene. Thank you, audience, for participating, for tuning in when we were a few minutes late. And I'm just speechless. And you know, that's rare for me. Hey everyone, I'm going to see you next week on Tuesday when we do CB Bowman Live, Challenges of the C-Suite. And you know what, I think we have to have Eugene on that program too, because he could give us some really inside scoops on what are some of the challenges that people in the C-suite face that he supports them in resolving. So look for you again. Notice how I do that, right?

Yes, I know what that means for me. Thank you so much for the opportunity, and it would be my pleasure.

And, and by the way, for those of you who don't know, the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches will be having its conference May 6th, the 20th, June 3rd, and June 17th. And guess what? Eugene is one of the speakers, and we're going to talk about the Futurist Coach. So there's more to hear from, from our guest Eugene Frazier. Eugene, thank you so much. Thank you.

Bye-bye.

And everybody, go with strength now and go with intent.