CB Bowman Live: Challenges of the C-Suite: Maya Hu Chan, Episode 6

Hello, Maya. How are you?

I'm doing great, CB. Great to see you. Thank you.

So today I'm very excited about having you. Uh, so audience, this is Maya Hou Chang, and we are so excited to have her. She's just published a great book, but let me start from the beginning. First of all, Welcome to The Challenges of the C-Suite. This is CB Bowman, and it is being brought to you by the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches. And that association is specifically for master-level coaches who are enterprise-wide business partners with their clients. So today, our very special guest to talk about the challenges that the C-suite face is Maya. Maya, tell us a little bit about yourself and welcome.

Thank you, CB. I am very, very excited to, uh, to be on your show today. Um, well, where do I start? Gosh, you know, um, I am an executive coach and a leadership consultant. I'm a speaker and author, and I have been coaching and, uh, teaching leadership development for, gosh, over 20 years. So this has been something that I've done, my passion. I work with leaders all over the world in a wide range of industries, and I've coached and worked with many C-suite leaders and also high potentials at all levels of leadership.

So, you know, our audience may not know what high potential is. I've heard it abbreviated, so give us just a quick definition of what a high potential person is.

Sure. High potential leaders are individuals that have been identified by the organization as someone that they have obviously high potential to advance in their career in the organization to become their future leaders. So it's a great thing to be identified as high potentials, particularly if you have been with the organization for a short period of time and you continue to perform and exceed the expectations. And then once you are identified, the organization will invest in you to continue to help you grow and develop your capacity, and you will have a a great career, continue on to, uh, to advance in the organization.

So I know I'm putting you on the spot. I didn't say that we would talk about this, but you know, when I was coming along in corporate America, I never knew what were the secrets to be identified as a high potential person in an organization, and I kind of felt like I was left out. I'm going to ask you to reveal, what do you consider the top 4 traits that a high potential person has and what can they do with those traits?

Wow. When you think about those traits, that each organization will have different standards and then they evaluate their leaders and assess their leaders differently. But typically, that when we look at leaders that have been identified as high potentials, they have to, number one, have strong technical skills. So they have to be able to perform well at their role and also be able to continuously exceed expectations. So technical expertise, that's first and foremost. That's the foundation, right? And secondly is that the person must be able to work well with others.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, and this is something that it's extremely important for leaders to evaluate, to be evaluated, to be seen that how well they collaborate and how well they communicate with others and how well they can actually work and mobilize a team to work together. So are they a good team player? Okay, and so that's a very, very important skill to have. And so I would say that another very important trait for leaders to be identified as high potential is that they must have— they must be able to demonstrate that they have obviously integrity, and that's the foundation. And so they are trustworthy and they have integrity and they can continue to earn the trust of their coworkers and their customers.

Mm-hmm.

And so those are very foundational type of skills and then traits. And of course, that they must be able to continue to communicate well internally, externally, and they serve their stakeholders. And then to be able to demonstrate leadership capabilities, meaning that you may or may not have a leadership title, but if you can mobilize influence without authority, And continue to work with others and to get things done. And that is another very important trait that people are looking for.

So, you know, you kind of cheated because you answered my next question. Oh, no.

I can read your mind, CB.

I wanted to ask you, and I think this relates directly to the C-suite, I wanted to talk to you about the power of influence. How powerful is it? How do you get it? Is it just magically sprinkled on you?

You know, I wish there's this sprinkle that we can go and just order it online somewhere, right? To have that sprinkle to, uh, to say, okay, well, you know, yeah. You wanted to be able to influence others, sprinkle this on and boom, you know, you got it. Not so fast, not so easy. You know, it takes a long time and it takes time for a leader or for any individual to be able to build up that influence. But first and foremost, the person must be able to have the ability to build trust. With others.

Okay.

And, you know, people are not going to just— not because you have the title of a leader, they're going to just let you influence them. Right? Yeah. No, you have to earn it. You have to earn the influence. And then so people will say, okay, well, I like you, I trust you, and I'm going to allow you to influence me. I am interested in what you have to say, what your thoughts are, what your ideas are, because first and foremost, I trust you. And so I value your opinion. So you must be able to earn the trust of the other person. Then you will be able to influence others. And earning the trust is like, you know, it's a foundation of any relationships. And you must be able to demonstrate that day in, day out. It's like making a deposit in a bank account, right? Yes, it is.

I like that.

You know, you look at this as making a deposit, and when we look at building trust, it's like every day, every time we have the opportunity to interact, I'm going to think about what do I do to build that trust continuously. Right? And there are many different ways that we can do to earn the trust of the other person. Number one is that we respect the other person, right? And we honor the other person. And in fact, this goes to the concept that about my new book, Saving Face. It's about honoring face, right?

Wait a second now, you just, you just read my mind again. I was trying to lead us there and you just Jumped over the fence there. Okay.

I'm hopping over, hopping over. You didn't realize I'm so athletic, did you?

No, wait. Okay, so now that you've gone there, please show us the COVID of your book, which is an amazing book.

Okay.

Saving Face: How to Preserve Quality. Move it over. How to Preserve This way, this way, so we could see the whole book. Say, How to Preserve Dignity and Build Trust.

Okay.

I have to share with the audience that I saw a pre-release copy and I was speechless. I was absolutely speechless at how and how simple and how critical and how fierce you must be to save face. It's a value statement. It's not just a promise. It's something that you live by. And the stories that you tell are so They got me. They got me. And so I would love for you to tell one story out of the many that you have at how powerful and how important saving face— first of all, first define what you mean by saving face.

Okay, excellent. So, so, you know, when we think about this phrase Saving face, a lot of times we think of this idiom that we use in the, in the US about, oh gosh, I've done something embarrassing, I gotta cover it up, I have to save face, right? But really, the real meaning of saving face, or the concept of face, is much, much deeper than just that superficial about covering up embarrassment. So what is face? Okay, so let me first give the definition. So face is individual— that represents individuals' self-esteem, self-worth, identity, reputation, status, pride, and dignity. So if you think about all of that, it represents how We see ourselves and also how others perceive us. It's your whole person. It's inside and out. So that's face. Okay, and face is a universal concept beyond its origins in Asia. It speaks to a deeper human need for dignity and acceptance. and the way we grant dignity to one another. And face permeates all levels of social and business interactions for the past 3,000 years. And when we hear somebody say, it's not about the money, the real issue is often about face. And so when going back to, you know, How has face become a social currency, right? You know, we talk about making that deposit to build trust. Now, face is the new social currency of our world today. And the more face we have, the easier and faster you can get things done. And you can also de-escalate potential conflicts if you know how to save face. So imagine that how we build a supply of faith with someone by continuously making that deposit into the bank account, right? So we build trust, we express our gratitude, we show appreciation to that person, we compliment them, we recognize their contributions, and we give credit where credit is due. And we do what we say we're going to do. We keep our promise. We empathize. We put ourselves in their shoes to understand their challenges. We give their voice equal weight and time. Every time you do that, you're making a small deposit, or sometimes big deposit, into that relationship account. And over time, the account grows. And the relationship deepens. When we need to make a withdrawal someday, we're careful not to make the other person lose face. For example, we provide feedback in private in a way that saves face and preserves dignity for the other person. If we mistakenly cause them to lose face, The relationship can still be saved if there are enough deposits to cover that withdrawal. We have overdraft protection.

I love it.

Yeah, we gotta, we gotta make the deposit first. We can't just start making withdrawals because there's nothing there to withdraw, right? And then that would be dangerous. Yes.

So tell me now how that— oh, okay. First, go to a story. Give us an example.

Yes, yes. Let me give you an example. Well, so this is actually my favorite story. It's in the book. And this is a true story that was told by a client of mine. So Jeff, was the finance director of a company, of a finance organization. It's a global organization. And Jeff was facing a big crisis. Under his watch, a frontline employee had stolen over $100,000 in an 8-month period. And as the finance director, Jeff was designed— he has designed and deployed this whole cash flow system that allowed this employee to steal the money to commit this fraud undetected for 8 months.

Now, I want to explain the reason why I'm smiling is because I remember this story.

That's right.

Not that I'm, I'm giving faith to what happened. I am remembering the story. But go ahead.

Yes, yes. And that— so it was a high-profile case, okay? And it was discussed not only in the security meetings, but also spread quickly throughout the whole company. So Jeff felt entirely responsible for this, but then he also personally, he felt victimized. Okay, so very soon, the company's planned a meeting with Jeff and his team. Okay, and the stress consumed Jeff. You could tell that he lost weight, he couldn't sleep, he even developed a rash all over his face. Poor guy, right? So for days, Jeff felt like a dead man walking. Okay, and perhaps made him even worse was that the hardline reputation of the COO had. And he didn't know the COO well, so this really stressed him out. So when the day arrived, the COO— well, the team was waiting nervously in the conference room for the COO to arrive. And the COO walked in, and he broke the tension with just one sentence. He said, I don't care about the facts. He continued to say that that is unavoidable, whether you're running a hot dog stand or a multinational company. The company has insured— it was insured and would be made whole. And COO said, I only want to know that you plan to review the process and fix it. And from what I can see, you seem well on your way. Okay. And everybody noticed that Jeff's demeanor immediately brightened. Okay. They focused on the problem solving throughout the rest of the meeting. Jeff and his team worked very hard looking at how they can fix the problem and moving forward. Jeff returned to his job with renewed energy. The COO has saved his face. So how did the COO do it? First of all, he created psychological safety while holding Jeff accountable. He didn't let him get away with it, right? So, but he created psychological safety and hold him accountable at the same time. He was kind and firm. at the same time. And he chose his words very carefully, and he showed humility and emotional intelligence.

Wow.

And when dealing with this very emotionally delicate situation, imagine that he had to give this feedback to Jeff in front of Jeff's team. So he preserved dignity for Jeff and at the same time holding him accountable. He helped Jeff overcome shame. and embarrassment very quickly and refocus his energy to solve the problem and move forward. So he sent a very clear message to Jeff and his team. I trust you. I have confidence in you that you will do the right thing.

That is such an amazing story. I love it. I love it. And so, you know, when you talk about saving faith, It's a leadership value that you can help your employees to save faith, not appear weak, appear strong, and actually you appear stronger. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, and at the same time, you can also save faith because you gave another story in the book. Where you personally save faith, right? And I think you talk about— correct me if I'm wrong— people who continuously say, I'm sorry, and it becomes like water.

Yes.

To people living in Alaska, right? It doesn't mean anything anymore. No, that's not saving face.

No, no. Yeah, and you know, you brought up a really good point there, CB, is that, you know, when I, when I share this concept of saving face with the leaders, it resonates with them, with people at all levels. And but then sometimes that it's also counterintuitive because This idiom that we use, the slang we use about saving face, is that people actually misunderstand what saving face really is. Okay, so a few things about saving face that we have to first know what saving face is not. Okay, so saving face is not being weak. It's not being soft. In fact, saving face is a soft skill. that's hard to master. Okay, and saving face, it's about being kind yet firm.

Mm-hmm.

And saving face is about preserving dignity for the other person, at the same time have their back and hold them accountable, all at the same time. It's very difficult to do. And also, saving face is not about covering up your own mistakes.

I love that part.

Absolutely. In fact, saving face is really about helping others preserve dignity, and then so they can, they can feel safe and then turn things around and do the right thing. So, you know, I think that that's the first and foremost is something that I think we wanted to be clear about what saving face is and is not.

So do you feel that the United States people— I'm going to put you on the spot— people in the United States more than countries in Europe or Asia have difficulty in saving faith?

Well, you know, I think that we certainly wanted to be mindful about not generalizing or stereotyping any, any culture or country, right? And, you know, in, in any society, in any culture, we have people who are very good at saving face and helping others saving face, but we also have people who are very— they have done it poorly. And it's something that we have to be mindful, particularly if you're a leader, particularly when you are in a leadership position and you set example, you set the tone for the company, for the community, for the country. So everything you say and you do, and others watch, and sometimes people follow. So it's so important for the leaders to be really clear about how their actions and their words impact others. And that's why it's so important for the leaders to be self-aware of their behaviors and also the impact and the influence they have on others. So for example, when we think about causing somebody to lose face, why is such a bad— why is that such a bad thing? So losing face can cause someone to feel devalued, ashamed, humiliated, unappreciated, or disrespected. Okay, and so when people lose face, it provokes all of those negative emotions, and those negative emotions and feelings can impact how well they do their job, can impact how much they share their thoughts. How much they speak up, and even how long they stay with the company. It has deep impact on their performance. And then so leaders must be aware of that when people are, you know, when they cause somebody to lose face. And a lot of times we cause somebody to lose face, we don't even know it. It's unintentional.

Yes, yes, yes.

Completely unintentional. And we do that all the time. I am the first one to admit that, hey, you know what? I have absolutely made so many mistakes in my life that I have said something, done something that I hurt somebody's feeling, or I put them in an awkward situation unintentionally. And that is certainly something that we wanted to avoid. So there is a— when I was growing up in Taiwan— you know I grew up in Taiwan, right? I was from Taiwan. There is a very old Chinese proverb, and I heard that from my parents, from my teachers. It goes like this: spilled water is hard to regain. Right, so imagine that you accidentally knock over a glass of water and the water spilled all over the floor. How hard is it to get it all back into the glass?

Impossible.

Impossible, right? Yeah. Well, even if you manage to put some back in the glass, do you still want to drink it? No, right? So it's, it's the— it— what this saying is, is teaching us is that if you have said or done something unintentional to hurt someone, that it's very hard to fix it, or to even— even you have done something to repair it, that it's not going to be the same.

Yes.

So we need to be mindful about our own actions, our own behaviors, and we cannot run on autopilot. You know, as leaders, we, you know, we have to be able to always think before we speak and think before we act. And if we have done something in If we have built up the face honoring phase over time, then we have a good foundation. Then we can— and then we apologize, we acknowledge that we made a mistake, we can still move forward and save that relationship. And if we realize that there is a potential for somebody to feel embarrassed or actually hurt, and we wanted to take— we wanted take our next step to save face. What is saving face? It's the authentic and intentional act of turning around a situation to preserve dignity for all parties involved for positive outcomes.

So, you know, Maya, listening to you, it's like reading a Robert Ludlum book. You know, it's fascinating. And I interrupted you, but I had to tell you, it's like reading a great mystery, right? I have to tell you, on so many levels, this is so difficult to do.

Yes.

It's not easy. And, and, and I want to tell you, so, you know, there is a personality assessment that you and I both know called Myers-Briggs.

Yes.

And on Myers-Briggs, I'm very high on each of the numbers, each of the quadrants. And I'm an INTJ.

Oh, okay.

Okay.

Yes.

I'm saddled with that. It's, it's kind of like carrying heavy baggage around with me. Yes, because I will tell you that it was very hard for me to learn to communicate with My mind is always inside of me. And what you said makes so much sense because I would upset people because I'm thinking inside. I have no clue what's happening outside in terms of how I'm represented. And I just didn't understand. why people thought, what's her problem? And, you know, I know I spoke about this before in an earlier program, because I would walk down the halls of General Foods and I'd be in my head solving problems. I would not see people coming to me. This is a very simplified version of what you're talking about. So I never said good morning. I didn't say good morning. see the importance of saying good morning to people because solving the problem that was in my head was more important.

Right.

And so I didn't realize that saying good morning to people was the very fundamental, fundamental basis of building trust, way down, you know, the foundation. Of building trust because I didn't understand it was a communication vehicle.

Yes.

And I would thought— I used to think, why are people wasting time saying good morning? Why do they care? Or they'd say, how was your evening? I'm like, why do you care? How was your weekend? Why do you care? Do I have to tell you how my weekend was? I don't want to tell you how my weekend was. And so I got dinged so badly for being antisocial, and my feelings were hurt because I couldn't understand why.

Mm-hmm.

I didn't have this communication. I didn't have I wasn't aware of saving face. I was, uh, I remember recently I saw a, um, a video, a vlog that Marshall Goldsmith did.

Yeah.

And he interviewed a high-powered executive, and Marshall said to him, what's the greatest thing that you learned from coaching?

Uh-huh.

And he said, I learned whatever I I say, even if I don't know what I'm saying or how I'm saying it, as the CEO, it becomes law.

Mm-hmm.

And I thought, well, now that's kind of interesting. Because I couldn't understand why in leading ACEC and MECOA and workplace racial equality, When I walked into a meeting or online and I spoke, everybody became quiet. And I thought, why aren't they contributing anymore? I realized, again, a very loose interpretation of what you're saying, but I was not giving them the space to save face, to give their opinion. I was trumping that. Even if I was talking in generalities, I was affecting their space to contribute. It reflected in the plateauing of the organization's growth.

Absolutely. It's absolutely unintentional. You didn't mean to do that. But because of the hierarchy and because of your position, and because of your role. And people automatically grant you the space to say whatever you need to say, and everybody kind of stops talking, right? And, you know, that was such an interesting example. And this is something that, as I've been a coach for C-level executives for so many years, I've worked with so many of them. And I think that—

And you're a member of the Association of Corporate Executive Yes, I'm a very proud member of ACEC.

This is something that I think people in the position of power don't always understand or realize that their action or the things they say can actually be interpreted as the law or as the final decision. That's why it's so important for leaders to be intentional and being mindful about, okay, well, how am I going to phrase this? And how am I going to— and how can I create this environment, this atmosphere that people feel safe to speak up?

Yes.

And then that's why we want to create the psychological safety for people so that they will be— they feel they are honored and they're also respected and what they say matters. And then so they step up. And they are not afraid to say something that's in their mind.

Absolutely. I have learned that the place for the leader to speak up is at the bottom of a meeting.

Yes, absolutely.

It's interesting because you would think that as a leader, if you're speaking last, it shows that you can't make a decision, or that you've waited too long, or you lack direction. And I have found just the opposite in all of these things. I think it's the way that you speak up when you speak last, right?

Yes, yes, well said. That's exactly right. That's exactly— and that's a— that's how you also create a safety environment for people people to really fully contribute. And that's also how you show that you honor their face, right? And you're sending a message that by speaking last, you say, I see you, I hear you, and you matter.

Yeah, absolutely. And you get to learn. You get to learn and you get to, to synthesize What's been said in a way that will support the people that are speaking and the organization's growth.

Yes. Yes. And, you know, as I was doing— I want to share with you a very interesting study that just recently published. It's a CEO survey. And I actually wrote an article. I'm also a columnist for Inc.com as well as CEO World. So I write columns for both magazines. And so this is the article that I wrote recently based on this CEO survey. Okay, so the CEO survey was done by John Spence. He is a leadership expert. And so he asked the question to CEOs of companies worldwide, large and small, and asked them to share lessons they have learned during the ongoing pandemic.

You're going to send me a copy of this, right? Because I haven't—

I'll send you my article. Yeah, I'll send you my article. So let me just give you 3 quotes. I think they're very telling. So you can see a thread there. One CEO said, empathy and compassion are potentially the most important traits of a leader during pandemic. And another CEO said, every minute you spend time putting Putting your team first will pay off in years of loyalty and engagement from the team. And another CEO said, our people really rose to the occasion. The cultural gas tank was full, and it shows. Okay, and what he meant by that was that he said that consistently that during this pandemic that he engaged the team, he continued to build trust, honor the face, and minimize losing face. And he continued to do that during this most challenging time, and people rise up.

Mm-hmm.

So when you look at the key, the thread throughout all the CEOs and their comments about what is the key lesson they've learned, They said empathy and compassion.

Okay.

And this is something that was very interesting because, you know, it's very consistent with some things that I personally have learned when I was working with CEOs as well as the leaders at all levels, is that if we are able to connect with our people and then we make them feel they're worthy and they're respected and valued, and they will surprise us. They will continue to perform. They will continue to stay with us, and their loyalty and also their performance will continue to rise up. But the leader has to be able to make the effort to really build that atmosphere. And, you know, thinking about— I'm actually also currently doing research on how to build psychological safety for people of color in the workplace. Okay? And as I interview leaders, thought leaders in this area, as well as talking to senior leaders in different organizations, the one thing that I have heard over and over again consistently from the leaders are that first and foremost, you want to acknowledge people's experiences. Even though you don't— you have personally not experienced that yourself, but it's important you listen, you learn, and you acknowledge that, you know. And then also being able to demonstrate the behaviors to be a courageous ally to them. Okay, so it's a fascinating topic, and I think it's so important for us to, uh, to look deeper into this.

You know, Maya, I would like for you— I'm not going to cut you off, but I want to extend this invitation openly. As you know, I've started a new firm called Workplace Racial Equality.

Yes, great.

It's a training program for coaches to be able to help their clients, for companies to be able to help their employees. And for general professional people to be able to help one another. And I would love for you to come and speak as a guest about psychological safety in the training program. I would love to. It's so important, and I want to interview you for the live streaming for Workplace Racial Equality about psychological safety. As well as saving face, because both belong in the realm of equality.

Yes, and those are absolutely connected.

Yeah.

Right? To be able to honor face and save face and avoid causing somebody to lose face, it's the foundation of building psychological safety.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

So, but before we go, You know, clearly this conversation took us down a fabulous path. I want to know from you, do you consider the lack of ability, and can you train for saving face, as one of the biggest challenges for people in the C-suite?

Oh, yes. This is absolutely A learned behavior. So that's the good news, right?

Yes, very good.

Yeah, because nobody was born wanting to cause people to lose face or didn't, you know, or naturally become very talented at doing this. It's something that you can learn over time, and it is something that's something that people can learn and practice and get better and better at it. It's like building muscle memory, right? If I'm going to work out to build, build my upper body, you know, strength, I'm just going to start doing push-ups. And, you know, if I do it, I would do 5 a day and every day, and over time I can increase it to 10 a day. And then you start building that muscle memory. It's like building any kind of habit, and you get better and better. After a while, becomes second nature to you. Okay, and so that's something we can, we can definitely learn, and people can, can, can get better at it.

So, Maya, I'm hearing a training program coming up.

Yes, I, I'm hearing that too. Well, CB, it's time for us to collaborate again. This is okay. I am so excited. You know, um, you are always inspiring And, you know, and you are a great example of a leader that really demonstrates the honoring phase and the saving phase all the time. And I just, you know, I can't tell you how much I appreciate you.

Thank you so much. That's so kind of you. I, you know, I remember a lot of my learnings from when I was in school. I studied at the New School for for social research. And so much of what you've written in your book is like a memory jog for me. And with my travels to Asia, I personally would say, and I know I'm going to get dinged for this, but, you know, I always speak out. I think other cultures, because of the age of the culture, more— have more of an ability to use this muscle that we're talking about than we do here in the United States because we're a baby country. We're a powerful country, but we're a baby country, especially when it comes to softer skills, right?

Yeah.

Because we had to build up this country from its and we had to build fast, and we had to learn to protect ourselves. And so some of these very important, more mature skills we haven't focused on.

Mm-hmm.

And I hope with your book it'll start a floodgate of us focusing on this, especially at the top of organizations and especially across Yes. Yes. So thank you from all of us out here for putting something like this together. I know it was a masterful undertaking and the results are so much needed. So I'm looking forward to that training program.

Wow. Me too. Wonderful. I'm excited.

Oh, great. Well, thank you so much for coming on. And I'm going to look forward to talking to you more around the corner at the workplace platform. But also, I'd love for you to come back to this platform.

Yes.

And talk to us more about what you learn about the C-suite and how they can use this philosophy, this value, More impactful to make a cohesive organization and to better solve some of the challenges of their buyers.

Absolutely, I would love to come back, and there's so much to talk about, and I have lots of stories. I will. We'll just keep, keep, keep sharing, and I love to continue.

Great. This is Maya Chang. Maya Hong Chang. that we have interviewed. And I know I just botched up your name, so let me try it again. Maya Hoochang.

Perfect.

For coming on board and sharing with us her great insights and just helping us to live stronger leadership styles and behavior, and as people, helping us to become stronger. This has been the Challenges of the C-Suite. Brought to you by the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches. This is CB Bowman. Thank you for listening to us.