CB Bowman LIVE: Challenges of the C-Suite: Holly Teska, MCEC Episode 8

Hi Holly, how are you?

I'm fantastic, CB. How are you today?

Oh, I'm wonderful. I'm getting used to married life. It's quite bizarre.

Well, I'm an old hat at it.

Oh, okay. I'll call you and get some advice.

Uh, anytime, anytime. My husband and I've been married for over 41 years. He's a He's an awesome dude. People tell me I married well. We're still best friends, which is great. Go on dates. We've got two adult kids that have families of their own, so we've had a great life.

Okay, all right. You're definitely my go-to person then. Let me just welcome the audience here. Hi everyone, this is C.B. Bowman, and you are tuned in to the challenges of the. C-suite. And this is being brought to you by the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches. The association is a group of master-level coaches who have moved up the ladder of helping their clients so that they are now enterprise-wide business partners, which means they know about the clients and they know about the organization and they blend the two. Today our special guest is Holly Teska. Holly is a pistol-packing mama, so I can't wait to hear her talk. Holly, why do I call you a pistol-packing mama? Tell us about yourself.

Uh, I'm learning every day more about myself, CB, and thanks to, um, you bringing Shirzad Shamim into our group a few weeks ago, I think I'm learning even more about myself that I probably knew, but now he's putting words to it for me. So, um, let's see, what have I learned about myself lately? I'm a—

Let's talk about him now that you brought his name up. Incredible person. He wrote the book Positive Intelligence, which is on the New York Times bestseller list, and he's come out with a new assessment for assessment A new assessment for executives that focus on self-sabotage. And we were fortunate to have him as a guest speaker at the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches in our special Saturday morning meetings. So that is what Holly is talking about.

Exactly. And, uh, he was kind enough to offer our group, uh, the experience of going through one of his pods. So Being the constant consummate learner that I am, of course, I put my hat in that ring before we even got off the call with Shirzad, of course, only to then learn that I am a restless, hypervigilant controller. So that's what I'm working on these days.

Okay.

Yeah. So I am— I think that that qualifies me to be on your show.

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, we'll talk about the benefits of that. So tell us about your professional journey a little bit.

So nearly 35 years working in the consulting world. For the past 2 and a half years, I've had the absolute pleasure of working at L.E.K. Group in Milwaukee. small Midwest consultancy, but we do work all across North America. Outplacement, executive coaching, talent management solutions, culture work, things of that nature. And I actually joined a former colleague of mine from my previous organization. I worked 31 years at Wright Management. And my last 15 years were in the executive coaching space. And I actually led the North American executive coaching practice for Wright Management and then played a pretty significant role in their global center of excellence for executive coaching. So it's my passion. I mentioned to you that, you know, I've learned through the school of hard knocks.

Yes.

I certainly have made—

That was the same school I went to.

I think many of us have gone there, right? But, um, interesting stuff. Uh, I've, you know, learning about yourself is a never-ending journey, right? And as coaches, we know that who you are at the core is really who you are, but you can learn to manage some of those things that get in the way. And I certainly was a student of that along my journey as an executive. So it's fun stuff. Yeah.

So I understand you have a little 4-legged child.

I do. So we may, we may hear some pleading or barking or whatever here. You know, as we're all at home working from our home offices, we have to deal with our new workmates.

Exactly. He may have something to add to this discussion.

You never know. There are times, um, he's quite spry. There are times I'll be on a call and he'll just jump up on top of my desk and he'll be in the camera. So, so, uh, just giving you a fair warning here. He may have something to contribute.

Okay. Well then we'll definitely ask his thoughts on what we're talking about at the top.

He may, he may have, he may have an opinion. You never know.

I know my four-legged always has opinions.

They always do. And they let us know all about them, don't they? Yeah, pretty cool stuff. So good.

So Holly, tell me, this is our famous question. Are you ready?

Okay, shoot it.

What are the top 3 challenges you are seeing in the C-suite these days? And what's your take? Do you have any solutions? What the heck is going on up there?

Yeah, I was actually thinking about it quite a bit this weekend, knowing that we were going to do this interview and You know, I was drawn back to a book I read back in the mid-2000s, Why CEOs Fail.

Oh yes.

You remember that book?

Yes, I do.

Written by David Dotlitzsch and Peter Cairo. And they discussed the 11 behaviors that can derail your climb to the top and how to manage, right? And I believe the book was written in 2002 or 2003. So it was just a couple years old when I picked it up. And I thought, wow, I want to look back at that and see what's changed now in 2020 from that list that was, you know, more than 15 years old at this point. Um, there's a lot of things that are still the same. Okay.

I'm not sure what that says for our society.

I'm not either. I'm not either. So just to name them for your listeners who may not be aware of the book, Arrogance, uh, you think you're right and everybody else is wrong. Okay, we've never coached anyone that has arrogance, have we? Never. Uh, melodrama, you need to be the center of attention. Okay, volatility, you're subject to mood swings. Oh, I've never coached anybody like that.

None.

Excessive caution, you're afraid to make decisions. Habitual distrust, you focus on the negatives. Aloofness, disengaged and disconnected. Mischievousness, you believe that rules are made to be broken. Eccentricity, you try to be different just for the sake of it. Passive resistance, what you say is not what you really believe. Perfectionism, you get the little things right and the big things wrong. And eagerness to please. You try to win the popularity contest. So I was thinking about those.

Mm-hmm.

I think a lot of them are still very prevalent today. Um, my experience though, and you know, I'm wondering what your thoughts are on this as well. My experience is I picked out 3 that seem to be bothersome right at the moment. Arrogance, habitual distrust, and passive resistance.

Mm-hmm.

I think the arrogance piece is— it's hard to control. I mean, it takes a certain level of individual to reach an executive level. You've got to believe in yourself. You've got to have a lot of drive, ambition. And I think it's easy to become arrogant and think you're you know, you're, you're the one that's right. That's why they've put you in the C-suite, right? And everybody else is wrong and they should be learning from you and paying attention to you, et cetera. So I think that's a constant battle that we're fighting, right?

What's the checkpoint for that? When is it, when is it making a decision and when is it arrogance?

It's a good question. I think when leaders refuse to take in input from others who may bring different viewpoints and perspectives to the table and discounting that and just rushing in to say, I've got the answer, this is the way we're going to do it, everybody fall in line. I think that's arrogance. It's like not respecting the fact that You have other people on your team that are smart individuals that bring talents, and you're not, you're not giving them a chance to voice those opinions, those ideas, etc. So then that's when I think it becomes arrogant.

You know, I heard something recently that I have coined unconscious arrogance. I don't know if I coined it correctly, but one of our godfathers in the field was talking about a situation. This is somebody he had coached. He asked the person who was head of a Fortune 500 company, what did they learn during the coaching assignment that really stood out for them?

Mm-hmm.

And the response was, I've learned that even if I have an opinion, whether I have an opinion or whether I'm just stating something in passing, as the CEO, whatever I say, it could, it could be that I said, God bless you, that becomes a rule.

Yeah.

So he's learned to just silence himself because it stifles creativity, it stifles motivation, and people just want to do what he said.

Mm-hmm.

I thought of that and I thought, that is just pure garbage. He's just not listening for the other thinkers around him, like you just said. But recently, I was in a meeting for the association. I came in late because I had a conflicting meeting. And everybody was talking, and I was listening. And then I couldn't stand it anymore. So I spoke up. And there was absolute silence. And I was told after by the chairperson of the committee, if you're going to come in late, respect the opinion of those that spoke already. Now, I thought I was doing that, but what I was missing was the minute I spoke, it changed the dynamics.

Mm-hmm.

Become— it moved out of discussion mode To moving into, this is what we're going to do. And I had no intentions of that being the situation.

Right.

But it was. Yeah.

Yeah. And, you know, that plays a little bit into different personality types, whether you're an introvert or you're an extrovert too, right? Many C-suite executives are extroverts and they think out loud. That's what extroverts do, right? If you've got an idea, you're processing it, whereas if you're an introvert, you're probably more quiet. You go to think about it for yourself, etc. And I too learned that same lesson the hard way, CB, because I am an extrovert and I do tend to process things out loud. And, you know, I have stuck my foot in my mouth more times than I would like to admit. But, um, My team as well. You know, I would find all of a sudden something that I brought up in just a casual, you know, we're thinking out loud here, here's an idea, etc. All of a sudden I come back the next day and they've got it like started. I'm like, nobody— wait, wait, I never said you should do this. Oh, but you said it. And I'm like, no, it was an idea. It was a thought. It was. And that's when I learned that, you know, if I'm going to say something, I have to preface it with, okay, I'm thinking out loud, guys. Don't take this as a decision. Don't take this as a direction. It's an idea that I'm throwing into the, to the group. Yeah, it, it was quite an interesting awareness.

I'm going to take that and I'm going to use that. I'm thinking out loud because now here, I'm an introvert. I'm a high introvert. And what I find, because we do process things internally, That when we speak, because we're speaking from our mind, it sounds like an order. Yeah, like there's no warm fuzziness attached to it, right? Smile. It's just that blurp. This is what is inside my head. And so we suffer the same thing coming at it from different ways.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So you have to just preface it with, okay, this isn't a direction. This isn't a decision. All it is is an idea. I'm throwing it out. I'm thinking out loud.

And has that worked for you?

It really has. And I've actually coached many a leader around that very topic because they too cause confusion for their team. People don't know, you know, is this a decision? Am I supposed to be working on this? Have I just been— has my idea just been pushed aside and the boss says, this is what we're doing? So, you know, again, I think it can be interpreted as arrogance because the receivers of that information aren't clear what the— what your intention is, right? And for me, coaching is a lot about aligning perception and intention.

I love that. I'm—

I think I'm a bit of a Pollyanna in that I truly believe, CB, that people are good inherently. They want to do the right thing. They want— they want to be good in the world. It's just, you know, sometimes the way it's projected is not appropriate, and the receiver takes it in a very different way. And Yeah, and coaching can help people to pause and see, is my message getting across the way that I want it to get across? And if not, you owe it to yourself and the people you're communicating with to help them get greater clarity. I think that's where lots of misunderstandings come into play, right? We make assumptions. We hear something and we assume without checking. Is that— this is what I heard. Is that what you mean? And giving that individual an opportunity to clarify and really communicate in a much better fashion.

Given the fact that CEOs are who they are, how can they find out if this is happening if they don't hire a coach? What are some of the clues that they can watch for?

Well, I think if they have a disengaged team or they feel as though—

Let's stop there. What does disengaged mean in terms of a team or an individual?

Sure. So disengaged, they're not passionate about their work. Maybe they show up, they get stuff done, but they're not demonstrating innovative thinking. They're not being creative. They're not contributing at a high level. They Sometimes have a low energy level. You know, it's just, it's kind of a, it's an icky place to be. I mean, if you are working in a job where you don't feel that you have purpose and reason and your contributions are valued, it doesn't take long before all of a sudden you're checked out. You know, you retire in place, so to speak, right? It's a place to go. You might even be out looking for another job already.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, you know, if you're experiencing that with your team, that you feel as though they're not engaged, you know, my best advice always is check yourself first. You know, maybe it's not the team. Maybe, maybe you need a mirror. You know, maybe you need to be asking some people around you what, how they're experiencing you and what it is you're putting out there.

Can a CEO ask that question and not lose credibility as the CEO or anyone in the C-suite?

I think you have to. I think anybody in a C-suite really has to know who their truth-tellers are going to be. Not everybody will speak truth to power in that fashion. It's important that you have some allies within the organization or an executive coach that can help pull that out of people around you. And oftentimes, the 360 process will get that feedback that a senior-level leader needs because those individuals that are being interviewed know that it's done under the veil of confidentiality and that the coach isn't there to throw anybody under the bus. The coach is there to help that leader show up in a way that transforms that team and enables them to bring the best results to bear.

So for our listeners, some people may not know what a 360 is. Can you fill in the blank?

Sure. So a 360 assessment is when a leader selects a number of different people around them. It can be— it should include their manager, people that are in their peer group, people that are in their direct reporting line that can provide feedback on some specific questions that the coach, the coachee, and maybe the coachee's manager have all decided these are areas that we want to delve into to get some feedback and perspective on. And then the coach conducts interviews with each of those individuals and puts together a summary report of themes that emerge from those conversations to help give that person an idea. What are some of the areas that I need to focus on in order to be a better leader and a better manager?

Is this a painful process for the person going through it?

I can't say that I have ever personally experienced That somebody felt threatened by it. I think it's a matter of framing it up appropriately, helping them to understand that feedback is truly a gift. People don't have to give it to you. They don't have to say anything. It's in the interest of helping you to become better. And as a coach, I, I usually spend a few moments at the beginning of interviews that I conduct helping The individual understand how the information is going to be used and what their part in it is, and assuring them that, you know, I'm not here to, to take and put quotes around your words and say so-and-so said this. This is all about helping somebody to become better. So I personally have not experienced that. I know people sometimes are in the feedback process, they sometimes can be resistant or try to justify, or I'm thinking of one that I did recently who, as we went through different bullet points, you know, he felt, um, very compelled to, to explain away, etc. And I said, please, I'm not, I'm not here to judge you. I'm just giving you what I heard, and it's for you to take and kind of soak it in and decide, is this how you want to be seen? And if it's not, What do we need to do about it and how can I help you? Right. So that's a common reaction. But I've never had anybody get up and throw the papers in my face. And I've never had that occur. I hope I never do.

Well, you know, Holly, you do make a statement, so that's probably not going to happen to you. But— and you make a strong statement that I think creates trust. Uh, with your clients, and that's important. I have seen personally coaches go in to give 360 feedback and people walking out in tears only because they were not experienced enough to coach the situation, to lay out the foundation for what was going to happen and why is it done. And They just don't have enough experience in interpretation, right?

Yeah.

So they look purely at the negatives and push that out on a client. So I think in getting 360, it's really important, really important that you get it from a coach who really knows how to deliver the message, knows how to help you understand the message, and can help you identify next steps. Because I'll tell you what, different cultures will receive 360 very differently.

That's absolutely correct. Absolutely correct. And I will tell you, when I do 360s, I always start off focusing on strengths. You know, what is it that this individual does well? What do you appreciate about working with them? I, you know, I try to make them feel really the receiver of that information, I want them to feel good going into it that, hey, you did ask about the things that I do positive and why do people enjoy working with me and what do I bring to the table. And that's before we get into the things like, okay, so what really bothers you or where's the greatest development opportunity or what are they not aware of or how do they sabotage themselves? You know, things like that. Things that I think are harder for us to see. for ourselves. That's why we need feedback and it's never intended to be cruel. It's intended to be a gift.

I think I'd like to go back to how we started this part of the conversation about arrogance. Do you feel that CEOs who are arrogant can actually hear the results of 360? By hear, I mean, can they listen to it? Can they internalize it? Can they interpret it? Can they act on solving it? Or are they so stuck?

Well, I think there's, there's different kinds of CEOs for different kinds of business situations, right? So if you think about, think about the turnaround, that's a very particular, specific kind of individual that's brought in to turn around an organization. And typically they are very hard-driving, Very arrogant. They do because they do have the answer. They know how to make this work. They're typically in an organization for a shorter period of time. You know, 3 years is a good average.

Yeah.

You know, they're not in it to be the nice guy. They're not in it to be building a particular kind of culture. They're there to do a job, get in, get out. I don't think that type of a leader is probably well suited to being coached to be softer. And unless they're having a personality transformation, I don't think that that's going to happen. I think that leaders who have grown very quickly and risen very quickly to the C-suite sometimes don't have enough of the experiences required to skin their knees. That's the way I'm going to put it, so that they really understand the importance of not being arrogant when you get there, right? It goes so quickly. Years ago, I actually wrote an article, um, for a blog about how the career development runway has gotten so much shorter.

Mm-hmm.

Yes. You know, it used to be when I was younger, you know, people started to get jobs of significance, I would say. So C-suite or being ready for the C-suite around the age of 40. You know, that was very common. Nowadays, you know, we've got people that are 28, 29, 30 years old in jobs that, you know, they have the technical capability to do those jobs, but they don't always have enough experience in what happens when I do this. You know, one of my favorite sayings, it still takes 50 years to build a 50-year-old. Um, you know, I'm, I'm really into this notion of the wisdom that people gain by the mistakes that we make. And I think you probably would agree with me to say that some of the greatest learning experiences you ever had were the mistakes that you made along the way.

Absolutely.

So, all of a sudden, somebody who's climbed the ladder very quickly ends up in a role of significance. They've not had enough time to kind of kick around and find out what happens. And I think that kind of leader, they're very ripe for learning, OK, yeah, I got here. I've got the role. I see that I'm having some challenges. And then you can kind of backtrack them a little bit to say, OK, So let's go back to the people side of this and how you're interacting with your team and others in the organization. And how do we focus on that so we can take that brilliance that you bring to the role and now build those softer skills? And I hate to call them softer skills.

Why?

Everybody refers to it as softer skills. I don't know that they're soft. I think they're equally hard, but they're different. But that's the kind of person I think that you can give feedback to and they can be very reflective and make positive change and then they can go on to be really great leaders.

Let me ask you this. Given the state of affairs of the world, COVID-19 has been the great equalizer, so we'd like to believe. Do you feel that as a result, people that are in the upper echelon of the organization have become equalized and there is less arrogance? Or will there be less arrogance when we return back to the new normal?

Well, again, I'm, I'm the world's greatest Pollyanna. I would like to hope so. Um, you know, CB, I think we've all been changed irreversibly. By the fact that we've been forced to take a pause, forced to take a pause and think about what's important to me. You know, when it's all over, what do I want to be remembered for, right? Um, we've never in our lifetimes experienced something like this. It's, it's, you know, it's suffocating and it's Invigorating at the same time, if that makes sense.

Yes, yes.

You know, this opportunity to kind of sit back and reflect on, you know, who am I? What's my purpose in the world? What do I, what do I want to be remembered for? And is the work that I'm doing aligned to that in such a way that I'm proud of it and I'm happy to pass this on and I'm leaving a world a little bit better for future generations? I think a lot of people have had that moment in these last few months. Will the world change permanently? I guess it's anybody's guess at this point. It's, um, I'd like to think so, but I don't know. It's too early to tell.

Of course, I would be remiss if I didn't bring up the other, uh, crisis intervention in the street right now.

Yeah.

Which is Black Lives Matter.

Yeah.

How is this affecting the challenges of the C-suite?

I think there's a lot of people trying to figure out what does it all mean and what do I do about it. I know that you're getting very involved in some of that work yourself, which I applaud you in a big way. I think people need to think about it differently. I've been I've been reflecting a lot myself about how absent Black history has been in my life, you know, what I don't know and how I need to continue to educate myself about all the things that I don't understand about Black culture, about any culture for that matter. You know, I do love people. I see myself as an open kind of individual who, who respects and accepts all people. But at the same time, I have to say that I don't know what I don't know. And I hope that this is a time where people are willing to share with one another and fill in the blanks. And I think CEOs are trying to figure out how do they create environments that allow that to happen, because I don't think it's existed in the past.

Sure. So, okay. Yeah, I hear that. And I wonder if the— you know, we're in a situation of what I would call a perfect storm right now.

Yeah.

Between 2 heavy-hitting circumstances and how much that affects the arrogance of the C-suite, the lack of trust And passive resistance. So the areas that you talked about.

Yeah.

That is, what do you see happening?

Well, I think there's a lot of coaching that needs to take place, to be honest with you. You know, I, I have to chuckle when I, when I sense that people are fighting over coaching work. I'm kind of like, folks, there's plenty of coaching to go around. Trust me. There's plenty of it to go around. But you're right, I mean, the, the distrust in the world, and I think we've got, um, because of the many things that have gone on in the last few years, I think there's such polarity, um, going on in the United States right now, which is very disconcerting. So I think the environment is ripe For distrust, everybody's like, no, it's the other guy, it's the other guy, it's not me, it's the other guy. Um, I don't know what it's going to take to, to change that. I'm, I'm hopeful that, um, our world leaders will help get us back on track because the message starts there. You know, we've created an environment that says it's okay to not be respectful. It's okay to say whatever you darn well want without worrying what the ramifications of that are. You know, we've received these messages in the last few years, and I don't think it's helped. So we're in a really tough spot in terms of trust right now. I think that— I think the world needs a lot of healing. So there's just been too much in terms of You know, the passive resistance, which is the, the third item that I called out from the book that I thought was really, um, pretty prevalent still. You know, what you say is not what you really believe. And I do think— yes.

And that links back to what we've just talked about, the trust factor.

Yes, exactly. They're linked.

You know, I, I hear the United States trying to heal from 2 major catastrophes. And I wonder, you know, you said something that starts at the top, this sense of distrust, this sense of lack of terra firma, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. But I wonder if I'm seeing what I'm seeing, because I think that the solutions are starting at the bottom.

I think you're right.

You know, so this here and then this here, what's going to happen when they meet? It's a very interesting phenomenon right now.

Yeah, yeah, I think, I, I think you are spot on. You know, the tone is typically set at the top, but I think if, if solutions start— don't start to appear at the top, I think you're right. I think the bottom starts to take Matters into their own hands, right? Who knows if they're aligned, right? Again, another misalignment opportunity. And again, it all comes down to a lot about trust, open and honest communication, helping people to understand, making sure that intention and perception are aligned. You know, so much miscommunication is just Going on right now, and it's a mess. It's just a mess. It makes me very, very nervous.

Well, given, given what we're talking about, would you change, uh, your 3 choices for why CEOs fail?

I don't think so. I think they're kind of the root. I think the others, you know, definitely come into play. And again, I'd urge your listeners to go pick up the book. Um, you still— um, I was— I looked at it a couple months ago because I referred the book to one of my coachees, and I was surprised to see that there were still comments that were relatively new. So people are still reading this book. Uh, it's not a hard read, which is really cool, but Yeah, I think all the others, I still see them, but I think these 3 are the ones that are most prevalent right now for what we're going through as a world.

You know, I think you asked me if, if mine were different, and I think I want to add one to this list.

Okay.

And that is the lack of ability to find the right people to get on the bus. I think that, you know, people are reaching out to the wrong people. And that could be because they're afraid. That could be because they don't know who to reach out to. They don't know where to find the right people to reach out to. But it tells me that the world of the C-suite has been so insulated and narrow That now in terms of double crisis, they're not really sure who to trust to go back. And it goes back to your distrust, uh, to reach out to who, who is their core, who's holding them up. I think that has been shortcut.

Yeah. And, um, are you creating an environment where people are drawn to you as well, right?

Oh, that's a good one. That's a real good one.

Because again, going back to what you said earlier, you know, everything you say and do creates part of the brand that exists around yourself. And if you're trying to create a shift, right, you yourself might think that you're doing things differently and you're trying to show up differently. But remember, you have a brand that's been attached to you, and it takes a long time for those around you to see a change, if one has actually occurred, and then to trust you and follow you, right? So if you've historically been known for X and now you're doing Y and you're doing it really well there's a lag in your ability to attract people to that new vision. Garnering followers, that is the most important thing that a leader can do. Because if you don't have followers, nothing you want to get done gets done.

I don't see that on the list of things that CEOs need to think about. We're talking about CEOs. We're talking about anybody who's at upper echelon of an organization. It seems that the higher they go, the less followers they have. And the worst part, they think they're okay. I'm okay, you're okay.

I think one of the primary jobs of somebody in senior leadership is to not only garner followers themselves, it's also to help the people that work for you to be able to do the same.

Right. I love that.

Because if you are not building that core of trust in the organization, that core of people that say, yes, I'm going to follow this person who I know is following that person who I know is following that person and it all works. They start to see the strategy different. They start, they can personally get involved in it because they see how they themselves fit. One of the core things that senior-level leaders need to do is figure out how to help people garner followers in their organization. It's a very important leadership trait. Very important.

I don't see it a lot at all. What I do see is the connectivity with other leaders outside of the organization who also may be doing it wrong. But they sound like they're doing it right.

Well, and it's not an either/or, right? It's a both/and. I think it's important for leaders to be in touch with others outside of their organization. That's what allows them to have a broader view of what's going on in the world, in their marketplace, etc. But at the same time, they also have to be very inwardly focused. It's just like the argument. So should we focus on the long-term or the short-term? It's both. It's not one or the other. It's both. I think that's the leadership dance. How can I manage the polarities of the job and do them well?

Do you see that— I know you touched on this before. Do you see that young leaders from what we call disruptive companies are doing things differently? If so, what?

I think they're more open to innovation. And I think, you know, I think they're risk takers, which is kind of cool, you know, innovation and risk. Again, when it comes to the technology, understanding how things work, thinking outside the box, I think that young leaders do a great job of that. But I think they Once they've gotten off the ground, they're really, you know, the— they're past the startup stage. Now we're looking at IPO, etc. I mean, have they grown enough to sustain that organization, or do they need to let somebody else take over and they should take their energies and go and build something else that's really cool? You know, different, different Different strokes for different folks.

What I do see, and I love seeing it, is that a lot of the younger disruptive leaders, I think they are faster at understanding their weaknesses than those at the top, and they're faster to reach out for help. I love seeing the older sage wisdom people partnering with the new, let's try it. Let's jump first and figure out where we're going to land. That's a beautiful partnership.

It is.

A lot of what you're talking about.

It absolutely is. Are you tuned into Chip Conley's elder— what do they call it? I'm trying to think of it. He wrote a book called Wisdom at Work, and it is all about attaching groups of elders with younger individuals so that they bring the best of both of their perspectives to a project. There's wisdom that older people have. They've skinned their knees. They understand if I did this, this is what happened. They're more around the relationship, the greater understanding, and the piece that you're talking about, Younger people, they're quicker to move, they bounce all over the place, you know, they get the technology so much easier. So yes, by pairing them, it's called the Modern Elder Academy. That's what it is. Chip Conley is the founder of that. If you haven't read the book Wisdom at Work, you will enjoy it. He also has a blog that he does every day. It's quite amazing, but it speaks exactly what you're talking about, CB, the marrying.

Give us the name again.

Chip Conley. Yeah, Wisdom at Work is his book, and it's the Modern Elder Academy. But yeah, I think it's just a great way of marrying that wise elder with that really bright, energetic young person and bringing those 2 forces together to create something that's really extraordinary.

Yeah, and I, I'd love to see that happen in the older established organizations, to bring in the youth and shake it up. You know, let's, let's get hopping, let's get moving. When just the safety zone is paralyzing us.

Yeah, well, everybody, you know, that's human nature, right, to, to cling to what we are comfortable with, right? We're not, we're not good at change. And, you know, so that's, that's human nature to try to keep things stat— very status quo. And until we get to a place where we feel that there's a lot more to be gained by changing the cultures of organizations, I, I think we're just going to chug along.

You know, it's sad because I can remember the day when we had that. We had innovation centers in major organizations. We had research and development. And I think those were some of our greatest years of growth. And then the economy factor came in and organizations sliced and diced them out, you know?

Well, right. They, you know, they cut them out because they were cost centers, right? Anything that was a cost center. But again, that's very short cited on the thinking, right? Okay, well, we'll cut this out for— it'll save us X number of dollars, but it's also your innovation engine. And what is— how does that impact your long-term? You know, I think, who was it, a group of CEOs that, you know, stood up earlier this year and said, you know, it's time that we start thinking less about shareholders and more about stakeholders, right?

That's Costco's mantra. Yeah, and look what happens. Yeah, I mean, not that I'm a Costco fanatic. I'm only in—

Oh, you are. You're only in there 3, 4 times a week, CB. We know.

Well, you know, I have to say, I have to have my Costco fix. Okay, it calms me.

That's a good thing, you know. How do you calm yourself? You know, I've been really I came across an article this weekend on medium.com. I don't know if you follow them at all.

I don't, but I should. I've heard so many good things about them.

They have some really good articles. And, uh, this one was, uh, the individual, she stopped meditating and substituted something else instead, and it turned out to be laughter, you know. So how many people have you known that, you know, you've like, oh my gosh, I tried meditating, it's the hardest thing in the world, I can't sit still, I can't blah blah blah blah blah. I actually experienced what she was talking about a couple of weeks ago, and I won't tell you what the embarrassing story was, but there's something a family—

Come on, give us the scoop. Come on, Holly.

If my dad listens to this, he will absolutely—

It's, it's a secret between us.

Oh, right. So my dad is in his mid-80s. And, um, I help take care of him and his finances and everything, and I balance his checkbook for him on a quarterly basis. And it was so funny because I was doing this a couple of— probably about 2 weeks ago, and he had written in an electronic funds transfer that he had gone to a restaurant and purchased his meal with his debit card, and he wrote in And on the, on the check register, register, something about the quality of the food.

Bad roasted chicken.

Bad roasted chicken in the check register.

Bad roasted chicken.

Bad roasted chicken. And I started laughing so hard I could not stop. I don't remember having a laughing jag like that for years. I mean, I hurt, I laughed so hard. And I took a picture of it and I said— I sent it to both of my kids via text and they laughed too. It was just so funny. He found it. Apparently his meal was so bad it required entry in the check register. What the hell? But you know, the piece about it was after I finished laughing, I felt so good.

Yes.

I felt so good. So when I read this article in medium.com this weekend, I'm like, yeah, people need to laugh more.

They do.

And then I started to think about, so what are other ways that you can get that kind of release that you get from meditation? And I love music. I mean, I love music. Music can transform me, it can transform my mood. Completely changed me. Um, you know, so people need to— there's been so much talk about meditation, not that it's a bad thing, but it doesn't work for everyone.

Yes, yes. And we need alternatives.

You need alternatives. So I don't care what it is, find your meditation, whether it's laughter or music or going, you know, a hard run. Or going to Costco. Yes, go to Costco. If that, if that brings you peace, you should go there often, CB. And I do. I have to be honest, I've never been in a Costco.

Oh my God, it is the best store in the world.

That's what everybody tells me.

I will tell you a story, and I'm sure that I shouldn't be saying this, but I shopped at my Costco in New Jersey so much. I felt like I helped raise the kids that worked there, right? Because I'd walk in the store when the manager wasn't there and I'd hear people say, Ms. Bowman is here, you better clean up that aisle. Because I would give a report, right? And so they said, she, you know what, she and Mike, they're like this, she'll, you know, you get into trouble. So 2 things come to mind. I used to get their chicken bake, and I hated that it was overly baked at the bottom. And there was a young man that was behind the counter there that gave it to me. And I'll make a long story short, he kept giving me the one that was burnt, and I didn't like it. I said something to the assistant manager the next day, and she said to me, come with me, Ms. Bowman. She took me over to this young man, and she said to him, If she ever asks for anything, you give her what you— she asked for. She is Costco family.

Well, CB, I have a, I have a, I have a piece of advice for you. The next time that happens, make a notation in your checkbook, burnt chicken, and then you'll laugh about it.

It's just so— I mean, you know, and I said, please don't get the young man in trouble. This is probably his first job. He just needs to know Costco's way of customer service.

Well, I guess I've just been inspired to check out Costco. I don't know what I'll buy there. Doesn't— don't— doesn't everything come in large quantities if you go to Costco?

Yes, except that I calculated this out one time, and this is going to sound Awful to people who care about the environment and care about the homeless, but here's the truth. I calculated that I could buy more things at Costco with less money, and so therefore, if I didn't finish it, I could either give it to my neighbor or toss it. I was still saving more money than going to the local supermarket.

So think about that then. Yeah.

And now that there's 2 of us, my new husband, he, he used to tease me all the time about going into Costco. And I said, you wait, you're gonna get addicted to it. And guess what? Now he says, oh, I need new clothes. He heads off to Costco, right? Because I'll show him a cute little skort that I bought for $12. And I look adorable in it. I mean, come on now.

That's the way to do it, CB. That's the way to do it. I've been inspired. I'll have to check out Costco.

Oh, they, they're good people. You know what I like? In all seriousness, I'm about the customer service. I work so hard for my money, as you do too. I don't want to spend it in a place where the customer service is poor. I want to be spoiled when I walk in a store. I have earned that. Yeah, working 3 o'clock in the morning, 4 o'clock in the morning to earn my dollar. I want that dollar to spoil me.

I think you're, you're really onto something. And I've noticed that I've become much more about the customer experience as well in my shopping because I too, I just feel the same way. I've spent my life in customer service and bending over backwards. And the last thing I want is some crabby person working with me. I, it just, I have no place in my heart for it anymore.

That's just a message straight to the CEO. I, I have stopped going into specific stores because the customer service was so bad, and I've just decided I'd rather do without. I remember when I purchased my first Apple computer I couldn't afford it, and I had walked in the store and I said, I'll just look and then I'll leave and I'll go and get some other brand.

But they're so wonderful.

I walked into that store, they said, no pressure, let's just show you around. And you know, you think— because I said, I can't afford this. They said, we understand, want to see anything, ask any questions. They spent a couple of hours with me. I said, all right, you know, I guess I'll think about it because I'm thinking, how can I save to buy this? I walked out of the store, everybody was goodbye, nice to see you. I got to the street, I turned around, I walked back in the store and I bought my computer.

Good for you.

And I, I did not have the money. I sacrificed to have that computer. And you know something, that computer lasted me 10 years.

So it was a good investment.

Good investment. And I, to this day, I remember how nice they were in the store.

So you're a customer for life.

On my second Apple.

There you go.

All things Apple now.

That's the way it is here too.

So yeah, makes a difference. So I think, you know, we have several messages for CEOs in the C-suite that are listening to this. Number one, make sure your organization is giving the very best customer service.

Absolutely.

Don't lead with arrogance. It won't get you anyplace. It won't get you where you got to, right? To quote Marshall.

Yeah.

Next is make sure that you have people around you who you can trust Who can tell you the truth, even if you don't want to hear it. Build that consortium, that cohort of people that will tell you the truth. Next is don't be passive resistance about decisions. Make your decision, stand by it. Remember, you can always change your decision if it doesn't work out for the best. But show true leadership. Go for it.

Absolutely, absolutely.

Anything that I missed, Tally?

No, I think it was great chatting with you today, CB. Great message for you know those in the C suite or those aspiring to be in the C suite. You know, keep it real and keep good people around you.

That's what you form your posse. Form your posse. As we say in my neck of the woods, and make sure that they're there for you. So listen, everybody, it's been great having Holly. I hope she'll come back and join us for other questions that are facing the C-suite.

Would love to.

Great, great. This is CB Bowman Live with Challenges of the C-suite. Come back and see us again. Meantime, Be successful out there. Bye now.