CB Bowman LIVE! Challenges of the C-Suite: Guest Ken Giglio, MCEC Episode 18

Okay, we are live. So welcome everybody to CB Bowman Live. Today we focus on workplace racial equality, and thank you so much for joining us. Let's have a living room conversation, learn some information, and you know what? I have a white male on the show today. Yes, I do. You're probably wondering what the heck is she doing, but wait till you hear his story. So I'm gonna ask Ken to introduce himself. I wish his lighting was better because you could see his wonderful smile. So Ken, introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Thank you, CB. It's, it's great to be here.

Wait, wait, I forgot to mention you're a member of the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches. And you're a master-level coach. So now you can talk.

Thank you very much. I might have— I would have included that in, uh, in my brief bio. Thank you. And it's, it, it's great to be here as the whitest male coach, uh, in America. Uh, so it's, it's a, it's a, it's really an honor that you invited me here. Uh, Ken Julio. Uh, I have a background in financial services, but that was 20 years ago where I transitioned into the executive coaching field where I started Mindful Leadership Consulting where I'm the lead coach, lead coach supervisor. And, you know, as a personal practitioner, I focus on really helping to develop mindful leaders. These are leaders that are in touch with themselves, with others, and with the system. So it's really what I call a tri-lens mindful reflection model. That is at the heart of our work. We have about 150 coaches around the world that do great work with organizations. And the work is in executive coaching, team coaching, group coaching. And also more and more, the coaching is being integrated into the work with, yes, diversity and inclusion and belonging, or in some cultures it's called diversity, equality, and inclusion. So these are areas that I have a lot of passion around. Even as you said, what's this white male coach doing here? That's a question that I ask myself. Not that I'm a white male coach, but the question honestly, CB, is— and I'm asking it of all my colleagues, but I start with myself— in this environment, in this world right now, what is my role? What am I to do to contribute to workplace racial equality or diversity or inclusion, and not to take that question lightly or to jump to any conclusions. That's a little bit about me. I just started talking, branching off there, but that's just a little bit about me.

Let's start with mindfulness. Also, let's talk about coach supervision And then let's talk about how that relates to the D&I issues that we're facing. And let's talk about some of your background and how it parallels, surprisingly, to the struggles for equality.

Sure. Would you like me to go in order or does it matter where I start?

I throw a lot at my guests. No, no.

Are you paying attention? I don't tend to be sequential or thinking one builds off the other. You know, it's interesting. I think they all relate, of course, CB, right? I mean, everything that you're talking about. So, you know, in terms of mindfulness, my background growing up and supervision, I think we'll probably end toward supervision because that brings it more into the professional space. But one thing that is really important that I think— I don't want to say levels the playing field, that's the wrong way to put it. It helps us to enter conversations when we're different. So I'm here sitting with you. We're coaches of a different color. We're coaches with different backgrounds.

Yes.

We're coaches of different backgrounds. And yet we care a lot about each other. We care about the work. And how do we start a conversation? I think the easiest way to start a conversation so it's not weird, as a white female coach colleague said to me the other day, she's like, how do I talk to this Black coach that I'm about to talk to? Or how do I talk about this and that? It's weird. And I said, well, I don't have bullet points to give you. I think we just feel it as weird because we're not talking from our own story. We think we have to make something up that's going to make the other person feel better. So back to my story.

I, I love this. I love this because actually I was in a meeting yesterday with Martin Lindstrom, who is a marketing guru who I met through Marshall Goldsmith. And he said, and I never thought about this before, the greatest leaders in the world are master storytellers. And I thought, what? And I started to say, what is he talking about? And then he flashed some of the pictures up, you know, Obama, um, Mm-hmm. Martin Luther King, you know, some of the— Roosevelt, some of the greatest leaders in our world, regardless of your political affiliation.

Right, right, right.

Were all great storytellers. And so having a conversation with somebody based on your story and not their story, And sharing those stories together, I think, makes for dynamic and a dynamic conversation and an incredible learning experience.

So tell us your story. Well, I couldn't agree with you more because, you know, well, let me just tell you, let me tell you, sorry, instead of, instead of talking about stories, let me tell you my story. But I couldn't, you know, so I grew up on Long Island in New York. Um, the, the joke is that if I say Long Island, I'll give away my accent. Um, and sometimes it will slip out. Uh, and it was, um, in a working-class family. You know, my father had a blue collar, literally had a blue collar, because that was the, um, shirt that he wore to the print shop.

Hmm.

And, you know, but it was middle class in the sense that we had what we needed. And growing up, it was very clear to me that I was in an environment that was just completely non-diverse in terms of race. But the interesting thing about my community was that we as a Catholic family had a lot of Jewish neighbors. And it was— that was diversity, which was fascinating in terms of my school and the dynamics and the messaging that I was getting at that time. Because this is a time in the '60s when, you know, it was still really fresh in the minds of Jewish Americans what had gone on in World War II. So the Never Again movement and, you know, really a lot of information about the horrors of the Holocaust, that was all in our schools. So we were really learning about that and taking that in. And it was also at the same time, you know, growing up in the '60s, I'm old enough to remember but not old enough to have gone to Woodstock. So I was still too young to go to Woodstock, but I have friends that were a little bit older, but I'm still a boomer. It was also the time of Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy and all the tumult that was happening there. Me being in my 2nd grade class and looking up at the loudspeaker on the wall when Kennedy was shot and then asking for prayers and then hearing again from that voice coming through the speaker that he had died. And then You know, watching my father and mother reacting in our kitchen on the TV to the rioting that happened after Martin Luther King was shot and to see Black faces on the TV because I wasn't seeing them in my high school. I wasn't seeing them in my community. I didn't see any of them. It was, it was lily white, you know, and to see the depictions of them on TV, how they were being talked about. But here's the interesting thing. You want to talk about stories? We take in the stories also of our parents. So our stories are, in a sense, created for us in part when we're really young, right? They're kind of given to us too. But I'm already, you know, 13 years old or so. And my father said, and I'll never forget, he said, you know, And he was angry. He was angry at the injustice he was seeing that was being put upon Black Americans. And he said, if I come back in another life, I want to come back as a 6-foot-5 Black man. And I was like, I just was trying to take it in, but it was clear it came from his anger because he knew that that would be somehow a powerful position. He sensed the disempowerment, how they were really being put upon, beaten in the South. And it really left an impression on me that he was behind them, behind their cause, and that they were disempowered. That was his image of strength, of power, of having some say. And that really left an impression on me. I was telling that recently to a colleague of mine, and that's just part of my story. Honestly, and growing up, when I first started seeing people of color, it was honestly in the sports field. You know, it was that was what I saw as diversity. And and but the sense of equality, the sense that we're all the same, that we have the same literally the same rights to our society. That was really embedded in me by my parents, and I really appreciated that, and especially my father. So that was something that was there.

What might be confusing is he saw the injustices of Black men 6'5. Why would he want to come back as a Black man 6'5?

Oh, because, because he, he felt that that, that was— you're talking about a 5-foot-6, you know, a Sicilian American. To him, that would be a position of power to take on the forces of oppression.

I see.

That was the image. That was the image. That was the image. It was, it was, it was a, uh, really kind of a metaphor, really, in a sense. It was a metaphor of what could possibly— look, it doesn't matter. You could have an army back then, you could have had an army of very large Black and white men and the, you know, the National Guard was still going to be mowing you down with hoses. But that was really a metaphor for what he felt could possibly empower, possibly empower, um, you know, Blacks back then. That's how I— that's how I took it in. That's how I took it in. It was— I just, you know, I was able to get it, you know, back then and understand it. You know, he did what he could as someone who spoke out when he saw injustice. He wrote about it. He was a member of the Knights of Columbus. Wherever he was, he got a leadership role, and he would speak out and be a disruptor. He always spoke his mind when he saw things weren't fair. So that was really deeply embedded into feel who I am, uh, because, uh, I don't know what kind of a grade I would give myself, CB, compared to him in terms of speaking out. That's a tough one. At times I feel I do. Um, you know, recent example that really sticks in my mind, I saw a couple of, um, there was a group of us, there were some couples together, and, uh, I hear the 2 guys, you know, laughing on the street and they were looking at a picture. This is several years ago, and I walked over and it was a photo of a, a black lab dog, black Labrador retriever, and the dog had a sign around its neck that said Black Labs Matter. And I said to them, I said, not funny, not funny. So I just immediately, you know, just called it. I said, that is not funny, you know, this, this is real, this is really serious. There have been others that I may not have had as much courage to step in because they were like, oh, you know, you're a party pooper, it's funny, blah blah blah. I said, no, that's not funny, you know, because that's— there, there are Black men being killed, uh, and for no good reason. And you have a— that's just, you know, yeah, it's about speaking up, uh, which I think is a tough thing. You go back to like, say, the workplace or other places where we're coming together.

Mm-hmm.

Right, CB?

So what was the reaction when you spoke up to the kids?

Um, oh no, these were adults. These were adults. Ah, these were adults. This is— this makes it worse. They're— these are adults. So we were a bunch of, you know, there was a bunch of couples and the 2 men were off looking at a photo on a phone. No, these were adults. These were my peers. This is a social situation. They did not show any remorse. They basically kind of pushed on me like I was a party pooper and don't take it so seriously, you know, blah, blah, blah, that kind of thing. That was their reaction. There was no sense of the injustice of it all and that this is not a place for humor.

So, you know, you bring up an interesting quote, scenario and question and statement of confronting people on their behavior, and whether it be confronting in a soft manner or hard manner, what does it feel like on the other side? What does it feel like for you to confront people based upon your values and beliefs?

It feels, you know, physically, it's a feeling that really comes from my core of just right and wrong. It's almost like this is something that is literally inside of me, like it's just coming from blow my diaphragm, like where it can't not come out of my mouth, that there's something that is not right here and I have to speak about it. Whether or not I'm articulate or not, it doesn't matter. It's something that feels that has to come out. It's that strong an impulse.

How do you feel after it comes out? What does it make you feel like?

Well, I feel like I've been able to put my voice out in the world. It's not— let me see if sometimes we have to go with what it's not feeling. It feels a bit like I took a risk and there's a little bit of concern as to how it's going to land. But it's overwhelmed by the feeling of this is right. But there's some nervousness, some anxiety after I put it out there because it's a social situation. You know, you're with peers, right? So it's like, how is this going to land? You know, um, maybe are they, you know, what are they going to say to me? And basically it's like, you know, I really don't give a hoot what you say about me at this point. That it's overcome by that, uh, in a sense righteous, you know, um, you know, indignation over that. So there's kind of a combination, if you see where I'm going with that, CB.

Yes, I do. And, and so I'm going to bring it into the income base Have you had a chance to coach somebody who is a racist, either overtly or covertly?

I would say that nobody overtly, but there have been hints here and there that people that I've coached may be in that spectrum, right? And, um, yeah, but I'm trying to grab onto something because there's nothing that really stands out in a very strong fashion. It's, it's interesting that you bring this up, CB, because in my work I have tended to, um, either attract or find myself in front of a very diverse group, or the purpose— not a purpose of the coaching, but what becomes part of the coaching— has to do with something around diversity, inclusion, or something racial, racial equality. So there's less of that. And so I'm reaching in my mind to try to find something because I'm really usually on the other spectrum where it's really helping people to understand how to work with it. They're well-meaning, good intention, but they're just clumsy. They're not racist. They just don't know how to actually have the conversations as leaders or know what their role may be.

Racism can take place on both the Black spectrum and the white spectrum. In what you've just said, Do you see it taking place in the Black spectrum?

If you could clarify that a little bit more.

So do you see racism in terms of how Blacks perceive whites in your coaching?

I cannot say I've seen it, and I'm not sure I'm as fine-tuned as I could to call that out. And honestly, I'd be very uncomfortable even saying that. So it's even so, so if, um, because I'm not sure I would be able to interpret that, honestly. That might be a hard one for me to, you know, so just to, just to say it. So if I'm, if I'm sitting across, let's just create a scenario, I'm sitting across from, um, a Black leader who starts talking about whites in a certain way, um, could I say, oh wow, that's racist, or is it a misunderstanding? I, I don't know. I've not had it though. I've not had it from, you know, um, yeah, I've not seen it. No, not, not in my memory.

So it does present an interesting question though, you know. I mean, I think today we think in terms of coaching white people in racism and how to create a more equitable workplace, since we're both in the coaching But we don't think about how do we support people of color if there is racism on that side. So let me give you an example. A client comes to you and says, okay, I've just been promoted to the CEO spot.

Mm-hmm.

I want to make some specific changes in the organization. But I don't think I will get the support of higher-ranking white people in an organization. Now, how do we define that? Do we define that as racism because there is a thought that might not be justified, or is it not racism because there might be Justification? How do you know what you're really coaching for? And it's a tough question.

Well, here's where we can bring in mindfulness. So one of the things that I take as a— and I'm not alone, just that we can frame it differently, but I use mindfulness here. One of the things that we do as coaches, and I think we do well, is approach our clients in a curious, open, and nonjudgmental Right? So I think if we start there and we do some exploration and avoid labeling or going into any path of interpretation too soon. So what our minds are set up for, what we know from science, is that our minds quickly— and if you're observing your mind, as I have for well over 20 years in mindfulness practice, Our mind can quickly go to interpretation. So that scenario, well, you know, he's already made his mind up that 4 members of his team are not going to support him because he's Black. And I'm like, okay, that was quick in terms of interpreting. So then mindfulness helps us to take a step back and say, oh, that's interesting. Tell me where that comes from. And now, now you can actually go into the story. So, it's about going into, as a good coach, you might try to understand the narrative where that came from versus going immediately to something like, well, that's a racist comment, you know, sir. You know, as if you would do that anyway in your coaching.

Challenge mode.

So, you may want to say to a leader like that, Well, you know, I can't say whether they'll support you or not, but let's take a step back and let's look at the history of these folks in terms of supporting the previous leader, a white woman, or what. So let's create some space around it so that we can look at it as objectively as we can possibly do as humans. create some separation in our minds and our bodies to look at our thought process and our thinking around it and take it as data. No judgment. Oh, that's interesting. You have a narrative that as you continue to move up— say this is the CEO— this may be uncovered. The narrative could be— it could be about a woman. I've worked with women in this way too. The narrative is men have never supported me and they won't support me. They're after me because they think because I'm really tough that I, you know, I can't be tough like them. Right? You've heard that. That's a classic one, right?

Mm-hmm.

And I can't be a driver. I'm a high D in the DISC, but I'm a woman. And, you know, and you hear this and there's a lot of reality there. There's a lot of reality there and even some trauma. Let's just be blunt. Some trauma could be there. So we explore gently Using our ability as coaches to ask questions to help with mindful reflection. How are we looking from a centered place at ourselves? What's going on inside of us? What's going on in our relationships? That's the second lens. And what's going on in the culture that can inform us and help us understand what effective leadership really looks like in this moment. I don't know if I'm answering your question, but this is where my—

Actually, you are answering the question, and the question I was going to ask you, um, because as you're talking about looking at the narrative, does that imply that the person is wrong in their assumptions? Would it be stronger to look at evidence-based Which is the best approach?

Well, you know, when I think of a narrative, I think of it as something that has to be viewed from many different perspectives, understanding that, as we know from psychology and some of the models we work with as coaches that we come into this space and time. I'm a male coach of a certain age. You and I are here with a history, right? And that history is critically important. And we're not putting people on the couch here, but the point is that we have scripts. We have scripts that were given to us by our parents, by our society, by the people around us. That we carry forward and that we build off of in terms of assumptions. So again, no judgment. It's a question of looking at them and getting curious around and saying, oh, that's really interesting. So you're saying that if you don't get everything right about this team by next Tuesday, you're going to get fired. I'm just being jokey here. And then you reflect it back, no judgment, not right or wrong. And they're like, well, there's no evidence in that. Of course that's— but where does that come from? And how has that served you? Well, there's been times when it's really served me because it's kicked me in the butt to really be focused on the right team members. So you want to also look at the positive side because these adaptive behaviors, CB, have gotten us to where we are. So that's the hard thing, right? You know, as Marshall Goldsmith would say, got you here is not gonna get you there.

Yes.

And that goes with our internal scripts too. And that's again where mindfulness comes in because back to equality, now we can take a look honestly at our biases. So where am I actually able to admit that I look at women a certain way, powerful women a certain way, or Black men or Black women or whatever, and just get curious around that versus going, uh-oh, I think that I'm smarter than the smartest woman in the room. Well, that's not true, Ken. I don't think so. But many men do. Many men do. Right. And, you know, we're willing to admit some of these biases.

So what— since Floyd, what are you seeing are the top 3 coaching themes that came from this? If you're not seeing more exposure regarding racism in the work that you're doing, are you seeing any themes that are coming out of this?

Yeah, well, to be clear, I'm doing a lot of work in this space. Your question was very specific about, am I seeing a racist client?

Okay.

So we have projects with several coaches involved working with senior teams in different organizations where the coaching is specifically around diversity and inclusion or belonging. And here are some of the themes because we have them and we've been discussing them openly. I'm a white woman in the technology field that's already a bit on the edge, and I've never had a conversation with my team about any of these issues. How do I have this conversation? How do I even step into this conversation? I— it's, it's, it's the, the client looks at you as if like, if I take one step forward, either my head's going to explode or I'm going to step on a landmine, because they just have— don't have the experience. It's frightening. And, and they're also well-intentioned. They, they want to do the right thing. So where do we start? We start settling in with their story, to, to settle them into what their story is. Where do they Where have they felt included or in a sense of belonging in their lives? So we want to settle them in to understand their own experience versus, as we were talking before, projecting about others. You know, we got bullet points, we have training, CB, do this, don't do that, say this, don't say that, you know. So one theme is, as I said, how Can I get past this? So this is connected to the first one. How can I get past the feeling in me, as one of my coach colleagues said, of this is weird? She came to me and said, "I need a a diverse coach bench, Ken. You're on the bench with your team. I feel really uncomfortable about this because I don't want it to be." And I used the word, I said, you don't want a token Black person on your team?

Mm-hmm.

Right? So it's tokenism, right? So let's just put a Black person on the team or an Asian person on the team. It's like those photos in, you know, like a Pepsi or Coke commercial. Let's get one of everything. Let's get an older white guy, young Asian woman. You know, I'm sorry, it's just, it gets to be silly, but I know what they're trying to communicate, right? So the conversation that I said, look, we're going to get on Zoom with my Black coach colleague and we're just going to have an honest conversation and we're going to talk about the weirdness. So it's just stepping into these conversations with humility, curiosity, and honesty. That's the thing to do. So it's the theme. The theme is, I don't know what I don't know. I don't know how to step into it. It's a lot of fear. And anxiety, CB. And there's also the challenge— a theme is that at the team level, leaders aren't having these conversations. So a leadership team or a functional team needs to first maybe have a one-on-one conversation, but, you know, have a conversation amongst themselves because these teams especially top teams, all have their own teams and everyone's looking at them. As you know, they're all looking at the top teams. How are you modeling? You know, you got these things on the wall. We just had the newsletter come out, you know, Black Lives Matter. You're sending stuff out on your website. How are you showing up? What are you doing? Another theme is how are these teams actually having the conversations within the team? How are they modeling it as a team, aligning on— and it sounds so trite to use the word messaging— this is who we are at this point in time. This is how we're reacting to what's happening outside. This is our position as leaders. And this is who we are and who we want you to be for your people during these crucial times. And you can see I'm not using any specific language because each company has their own models and ways of approaching it. But everyone needs to be— everyone in this environment right now, CB, my view is everyone needs to stand up and be counted. And I'm not telling you where to stand up and how to be counted, but this is the time. Does that help in terms of answering?

So, so what you're saying basically is the common theme that you're seeing is communication.

Mm-hmm.

Honesty and commitment to having open conversations, open dialogue. Now, I want to go back to something you said, which was, you know, the person who felt— on your team who felt uncomfortable that this was a weird space.

That was a client. That was a client, actually.

Oh, it was a client. Okay. Um, did you ever get to why the— why there was uncomfort?

Not— this was a— this is a big C client, not a little c client, as they say. So we didn't have a coaching conversation around that. Uh, I believe she'd be open to it. We could have that at some point. Um, around the edges, I would suggest, because we're talking about a, um, uh, she's a white woman of a certain age of privilege, I'm a white man at a certain age, comfortable having the conversation. Uh, I don't have any specific answer. I can relate to other weird conversations because this is not— this is This is emblematic of other conversations with others that have come to me and say, this is weird. I don't know why they think—

What do you mean is actually weird?

Well, so let's, let's break down what weird really means.

Yeah.

So in other conversations, what it means is I don't want to show up in a way that is going to be harmful to the other person. I— and it's, I don't know what to say. I don't know how to address the situation. It's really a not knowing space. Weird is interpreted more as uncertainty, right? And feelings of being uncomfortable.

Right?

That's what I would define as weird. And everyone uses different language, but let's just break it down to uncertainty, fear, and anxiety. Let's just be blunt. That's what it is at whatever level it is for different people. And my counsel backslash coaching is Let's just step into a conversation.

Sorry to interrupt. What kind of conversation are they feeling is weird? And I'm asking this for a purpose. Sure. Since we as a country have become increasingly aware of the differences between Blacks and whites, Mm-hmm. Are they saying that the conversation for them that's weird is to discuss this difference, or have they then now become gun-shy about having a normal business conversation, say, about a competitor? Because both things can happen.

True, true. I, I wouldn't want to generalize this this conversation, I would— because I know that different people have been able to step up and have conversations. I would say that specifically here, it was more about what I'm seeing in our profession and also on teams is we don't want to bring people of color in or create equality just for the sake of it and put people on the spot, as they use the word tokenism before, um, just because, you know, hey, listen, I need, I need, um, a Black person on the team. Would you mind, CB, being a part of the team? You know, it's like, uh, that— and, you know, in all seriousness, I told the story, um, years ago I was recruited by a female coach. And she, uh, and I said, so why are you interested in having me on your team? And she said, because you're a guy. I said, okay, so let me get this right.

Um, um, I'm sorry to laugh.

No, no, no, I, I, it's like I'm presenting it to be laughable. So let me, let me, let me get this straight. I grew up to be a white male, and now you're telling me that I'm creating diversity on your team.

How did that feel?

You can see my face. I was like, it was like, what? And, and, you know, you may know the percentage, but our field is predominantly female, right? I don't know if it's 65-35 or 70-30, but, but even today, um, you know, uh, Male coaches are, you know, there are fewer male coaches. And if you want to go up the quality chain, fewer quality male coaches, right? So, so that was an interesting thing. So we don't want to go back to the, the point. We don't want to just say, well, she was blunt. She was like, just want a guy. And I, you know what, then I said to her, I said, thank you for contacting me for my skill and experience. Oh, I couldn't resist. So So she just looked at me. I said, come on, really? But I was very willing to work with her and partner with her, but I had to call it out.

Yeah.

Because it felt— honestly, as much as I could feel like it was tokenism, I felt like an object, not as a person. I wasn't called up because I was a really good coach or because who I am or my mindfulness orientation to coaching. I was literally called up because I was a guy. So back to why weird and uncomfortable. I need you because you're a Black female coach. Okay, so you see, does that, does that resonate, make sense? So I can—

oh yeah, absolutely.

I'm going right.

Yeah, I see exactly where you're going.

I mean, believe it or not, I had the experience. How bizarre is that as a white privileged guy? It's really kind of weird.

I mean, how many, uh, coaches that are of color have been called in because of their color. And that's it. Right. And you know what, I thought you were going to— I need you to attend this meeting, this business meeting, because you're Black. And our client is Black, you know, which I've— oh my God, I can't tell you how many times I've heard that story. Right.

Yeah.

And then it becomes And here's where the fork in the road comes. Do you accept the assignment because you're Black? Do you accept the assignment because it gives you experience and exposure? Or do you turn down flatly the opportunity, or the risk, or the situation?

These are great questions, CB. So what did your internal coach tell you in some of those situations?

Oh, I'm gonna tell you, I'm going for it. I'm going for it. Because while I may not have been invited for the right reasons, I could turn that learning into dollars. So that's— but that's me. I'm an Army brat. I'm gonna look for that squeeze point where I could take that and use it to my benefit. Right. But that's, that's my philosophy. It may not be somebody else's philosophy.

Which raises an interesting question. So you and I are talking about, you know, workplace racial equality, right? And, and you as a Black female coach, as a Black woman, have a different perspective than other Black women. So I think what we've done, which I think is also ludicrous, is to say, oh, Ken's a white guy of a certain age, he's got no hair, it's a certain profile, so they're all like that, right?

Yes.

You know, it's laughable. It's, it's a little bit like what we're— what's playing out right now. Oh, the Latino vote, the Hispanics, as if it's like this one person that represents the entire— it's just silly.

Yeah.

They're so diverse within their diversity. You are so diverse within your diversity as women of color, men of— and here's a quick story. I may have shared it with you the other time. A colleague of mine, another amazing coach, Black female. We're having a conversation about our backgrounds. And it turns out she grew up in a much more privileged background, white-collar professors, business leader parents. I've got my blue-collar. So very different class. And within her family, so I said to her, So tell me, as a Black woman, what was it like going in business? You went to meetings. What was it? She goes, Ken, I never had a problem. I would walk into that meeting and I would just say my piece of mind. I never thought about myself as a Black woman or that I was different. And she just went in. I'm thinking to myself, wow, I mean, really empowered. And then she said, you know, but I talked to my brothers recently and my brothers' experience Really different than mine.

Yes.

And, and, and that became a really interesting conversation with her because they did not have the same avenue of walking into a room in their corporate careers or walking up the street and feeling safe. Their experience was very different as Black men, Black boys growing up. So we have to really be sensitive to the differences within these dynamics. I grew up in a lower class structure than she did. I had less opportunity in a sense. I got different messages. She got messages like, you go for it. I was saying to her, honestly, at the same age, I wouldn't have felt as a white guy as confident as you going into a room and speaking to the board or the senior leadership team. I didn't have the confidence you had. How interesting is that? You would think, so you think about the background, how we grew up, the messages we got, right?

And I'll add one to that. Black people from other countries, countries that are Black countries, have a much more— a much stronger feeling of privilege than Black Americans do.

Say more about that. I know a little bit about this, but I'm curious.

So, you know, in talking to one of my colleagues who's in the coaching space, Dr. Mungozi from South Africa, when we talk about the difference between racism and apartheid, he said, you know, in the United States, Blacks are facing racism as a war zone, whereas we didn't do that in South Africa. Now, I do remember there were issues around military, but, but the over— what he's talking about is the overall impression of the transition.

Mm-hmm.

And I said, why do you think that is? And he said to me, well, Blacks owned Africa. Whites came in as a guest. And so we have this feeling of— I don't want to say discounted whites, but we have the strength of knowing that it was our land first, which means we have the privilege of this space, right? This geography is ours.

Interesting. And I would imagine that their rich tribal culture history would really also create that connection and community. I would suspect. I can't— yeah.

But even more ownership.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There is no question about who deserves I'm here.

That's it.

Yeah.

I think you raise a really important point, CB, that has been on my mind recently about this entire conversation. We tend to, with our programs, well-meaning incorporations for diversity inclusion, with our coaching, with our models, try to get to the heart of things, and my concern is sometimes we oversimplify what is a very complex history which is different in different places.

Yeah.

And, you know, we have to— honestly, we have to complexify and separate out some of these components to then understand and integrate. For us to— for me as a white man, a white boy growing up, to better understand through reading, through education, through conversations, what the experiences are that you had, which are different from my other Black male or female colleagues, Asian, whoever. I've got a Native American on my team, you know, so I'm really interested in the indigenous cultures here. I've got a lot of interesting commitment to creating a very appropriately broad palette for our team so we can paint all the different things we need to paint from that palette in terms of coaches and diversity. And yeah, we need to really be curious and not just go down one channel and say, this is what it is, and I've got an answer to this, quote, problem.

Well, I think this is really important because as you look across corporate America— and I, I have no statistics to back this up, this is my gut telling me— that most people of color, Black specifically, that have risen to the top are probably not going to be Black Americans. I'm going to go out on a limb to say it's probably going to be African Americans, Blacks from other countries who have this sense of privilege and ownership and have been accepted by their white colleagues in a different way than Black Americans, because the rationale, the excuses— but they're from Africa, and so it's okay, right? And I, I think that's an unconscious thing that's going on. I don't think it's conscious. It's the same thing, like, when you hear— as an American, if you hear a British accent, you think Oh, there's the queen, there's, you know, the king. It's the upper level, the upper echelon, right?

I, I got, I got over that a long time ago. I have enough British colleagues that I've been there, done that. I used to think it was really interesting. I'm more interested, I'm more interested right now in Italian and French accents.

But you know, as Americans We are drawn to these foreign accents, right?

Yeah, but who's drawn to our accents? Come on.

Well, but my point being that, you know, we seem to be more supportive of foreign people in many cases than we are of our own people.

You know, I, I don't see evidence of that But I understand where you're coming from because I've seen and I've sat with very senior Black leaders in academic medical institution chairs of specialty areas and CEOs in organizations. And they've been both Black Americans and yes, born in Africa.

Whoa, whoa, time out. Black Americans. However, what is their heritage? What is their story?

Yeah, now, um, yeah, yeah, I know a little. There's the complexities that you're talking about, I think, are what we have to really become aware of. So back to my example of my colleague on the West Coast. So certain Black Americans had the privilege of growing up middle class or even more upper class. They had the schooling, they had the background, they had the support like many whites that don't have it or have it, right? So that's the big split that people aren't talking about now here.

Oh, there is another split. There's another split. Being brought up in middle-class America, as I was, and upper middle class, Going into corporate, I was resented because I could sound like them, I could think like them. And so the response was, what gives you the right to sound like us? What gives you the right to dress like us? We can't have this. You're too uppity.

Yeah. Oh, that's, that's a, that's, that's something that I can't imagine. I don't have that experience. So my image is always to you and others, I'll walk out on the bridge and meet you, but I've never had that experience. So I hope that I've never been on the other side of that experience, but I can't say for sure because I'm not saying that I'm so aware. I grew up and I had a career in financial services, which was on Wall Street. which unfortunately was, you know, um, not the calmer, somewhat more integrated place, though it's nothing great, that it was in the '80s and '90s. It was a pretty brutal environment. Uh, it was, um, misogynist, uh, racist. It was just a horror show. But, um, but back to, um, you know, what is interesting when you talk about Other countries, coaches, leaders. I have found, and this brings us to the supervision piece, because I haven't forgotten the 3 areas that you mentioned. I've had the good fortune to do pro bono work in coaching supervision where I'm working with coaches who are a team working with an NGO in Africa. So, it's a Black female coach who is in Africa, African coach, and a white female coach who's in the UK. And everything's on the table, wonderful openness to exploring where it needs to go in service of this NGO, which is in service of poor women and families. So, we always have to think when we're doing our work, who's— what's the end game? Who are we serving, right? So our job as supervisors is to work with the coach to help them be their best with their client who's serving. In this case, you know, you're talking about helping families get food and clean water in places in Africa. So, The things that come up, back to race, the culture is very hierarchical, right? So you have a really talented, you know, Black female coach who experiences Blackness very different than people here, right?

Mm-hmm.

Because, you know, this is what— when she looks out, And by the way, to get an internet connection, you have to sit in a hotel in this country. Literally, you have to go, you have to scramble and go to a hotel lobby because hotel lobbies are the only place. And it took 2 months before we were able to get a reliable connection to even have a supervision session. So we're talking about real challenges here. So, but the experience of working as a Black female with Black men who are the team in this NGO leadership team, it becomes a really fascinating conversation, right? So, so you, you want to be in that reflective space to go back to the mindfulness to say, what is going on here now, right here in this room within myself? within the relationships as we talk about it even here and within the system. How can we take those 3 perspectives from a common centered place? 2 questions I always ask: what are you noticing and what are you sensing in your body and your surroundings? So you can really go to a place of presence, use our attention and our presence to explore what really matters.

I like that. I love that ending. And, you know, we're almost out of time, and I think that some of the things— well, not that I think, I know some of the things that you talked about, um, this, the whole concept of mindfulness, the whole concept of looking into yourself, not just where you are now, but looking into your, your history, your past, not Not to blame, not to blame your parents, but to own the totalness of you and to use that as a strength to move forward. I love that concept, and I think it applies to all races.

It does.

You know, I say to people now, people of color who feel powerless. And I say to them, think about what happened in COVID-19 and what's happening. And many of the lower-level positions in organizations where people got sick, infected, affected people of color. It could be Latinx, it could be Black Americans. In essence, that resulted in companies going under or shutting down for extensive periods of time. That gives you an inkling as to this real power base of organizations, and to be able to use that Effectively, it's so much stronger than weapons. It's that knowledge of the importance that you have to running a company, to running a country, and that's what we have to look at. That's what we have to be aware of, and that's what we have to own is a true power in the way that we haven't.

Yeah.

With that, Ken, as my first white male guest, I think you did pretty good. Tell the organization how they could find— tell the organization, tell listeners how they can find out more about mindfulness in leadership and in our everyday life.

You can look us up at cbbowman.com. mindful-leaders.com. It's Mindful Leadership Consulting. I'd love to hear from anyone who would like to talk about mindfulness, leadership, diversity, coaching, and also MCEC.

Oh, of course. And we also want to say that, you know, my organization, Workplace Racial Equality, is something that we're dealing with this in a very unique way. It's an experience-based program. So I think, you know, utilizing Ken's mindfulness and our experience-based program, and you have all the tools needed to make a difference, not only in your life, in somebody else's life, in the organization, and in the company. So Ken, thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate it. And I'm going to say to the audience, please don't forget to tune in on Tuesday where CB Bowman takes you to the challenges of the leadership. See you then. Have a great weekend. Bye now.