CB Bowman LIVE! Challenges of the C-Suite: Carrie Elrick - Episode 57

Hello everybody, this is CB Bowman Live. I guess you probably wondered what happened to me. Well, let me just tell you. First of all, today is Workplace Equity and Equality, and we have a great guest for you. Well, I did 2 conferences back to back, and I had to take some time off. Actually, you know what, I'm still in the middle of taking time off, but you know how that rocks out. I missed you so much, I had to come back. But I do want to let you know that we are taking the rest of the summer off and we'll be back in September, right? September? I don't know, I have to ask my assistant, but I think she said September. Um, and we will miss you so much, but But keep watching the LinkedIn profile. And oh my gosh, it says we're having trouble streaming to LinkedIn. I don't know why that happened. Hold on, everyone. You know, technical stuff happens. Save changes. Let's see if that helps. Nope, it did not. Okay, so guys, here's what we're gonna do. We're just gonna rock this out. It's going to be on Facebook and YouTube, and then we'll figure out how to put it on LinkedIn. Okay, so sorry, LinkedIn folks, but you know, LinkedIn, it has its own world, right? And it's funny because my guest said at the beginning, what happens if we have a technical error? And I'm like, we'll punt. So now we're punting. So anyway, as I was saying, we'll be back in September, uh, at our full schedule. So just keep watching me and— wait, I have to figure out which eye to wink at you. And you'll see when I come back. Plus, we'll send out announcements. But meantime, Let's get to Carrie. Carrie, welcome, welcome, welcome. And Carrie's out of Canada, so today we get to hear a different perspective and we'll get the inside scoop on what's happening in Canada. So Carrie, welcome and tell us a little bit about yourself.

Well, thank you so much, CB. I'm so thrilled to be here and I love your show, so I'm just more than delighted to be a guest. So thank you so much for including me today and inviting me long from Canada. Yeah, so my name is Kerry Ulrich and I'm coming to you from Victoria, British Columbia, Canada. So that's on the west coast of Canada. It is an island, Vancouver Island, and we are on the unceded territory of Lügwuankin peoples who were the first peoples here in— on this part of the island in Vancouver Island. So land acknowledgments are a very important part of our work here in Canada, in particular around our efforts with reconciliation with Indigenous and First Nations peoples here. And having a moment and a pause to always note where we live and work and how, how we're here is an important part of maybe Canadian culture to some extent. So I'm about a 35-minute ferry ride from Vancouver, British Columbia, and over here on the island we live surrounded by the Pacific Ocean and we have a pretty, a pretty nice geographic region, so it's quite lovely here.

Oh, I bet the fish is delicious there.

Yes, you're right. There's lots of salmon. And trout and a whole bunch of other kinds of things. I don't fish, but I do eat those things. Yeah, that's as far as I can really talk about fishing. But yeah, the fish is amazing. So lots of seafood. Yeah.

Wow, that sounds fantastic. Hey, you mentioned a word that I don't think that many Americans pay attention to. Indigenous population. What does that mean, actually?

Yeah, those are, that's, those are people who are, are the first people, peoples, who, who inhabited parts of the country geographically. And then once settlers arrived, from Europe came onto the lands and colonized Indigenous people, and that has resulted in myriad issues, of course, of oppression and marginalization and lots of problems through that. So those, those are our people who were considered to be the first people here on our lands.

Okay, and these people that we're talking about Are they throughout Canada, or just— are you just talking about the island that you're on?

Oh yes, no, they're, uh, throughout Canada, um, and there's many, many, uh, many different, uh, groups of Indigenous people, uh, uh, here on Vancouver Island, for example, there's over 200, uh, different nations of Indigenous people, and, uh, as that also includes cultures and different languages and different ways of being and knowing with different, different, um, different ways of, uh, for people to live their, um, their, their culture. Um, and that's just here on Vancouver Island. So, um, another part of Canada that— so Indigenous people are throughout Canada, and another region which we can talk about a little bit later on is, uh, where I lived was up in the Arctic, uh, Canada. So that's way above Way up in the top near the North Pole is where I lived for a number of years, and there the group of indigenous people that are are from there that inhabit that area are called Inuit people. And and that of course was a an interesting transformational experience for me, which we we can talk a little bit about. But that's just an example of the variety. of different people that live, Indigenous people that are part and inhabit Canada.

Yeah. Now, you mentioned the word Inuit. Isn't there a statue, a famous statue with that name that talks to pointing people in the right direction?

Yes.

One of those.

Yeah, that's right. That is from, that is from, from Inuit people. That is a statue that is the, the 3 stones together that do show people. Yes. And you do see up in the Arctic, uh, those are, uh, those statues are there and those are actually, uh, used for, uh, for real, for realsies. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So those became really popular, uh, yeah, for, for as, um, when we had the Olympics here, uh, that was one of the, um the items, I guess, or one of the productions of some of the promotional material that was given out as part of a gesture around Canadian culture. So, you know, there's a whole conversation about that. But yeah, that's right. Yeah.

Yeah. When I did one of the conferences for the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches, the speakers were given one and I could never pronounce it correctly, but I have one, uh, in my living room, and it's, uh, made out of like a chiseled glass and it has the arms that extend out to help, you know, with the direction.

All right.

I thought it was such a— one of our members who was from Canada told me the story, and I thought, that is a great, um, moniker for coaches because we help people with Direction, right?

Exactly.

And so I, uh, claimed it down here in the States for coaches.

Well, that's good. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's a really good example of, um, you know, part of, uh, you know, from my experience with Inuit, uh, sort of ways of being and knowing is the generosity, uh, of, uh, of Inuit people in sharing, um, you know, their, their culture and their ways. with people who are outside of their culture, you know. So I think either— my experience was all, you know, Inuit people that I worked and lived around and existed with were always so generous that way that they would share something with the rest of the world that is a meaningful symbol, you know, in their culture. It's very, you know, it's meaningful and that their arms and just the generosity of that, I think, just is a really good symbol again of just, you know, some of the experiences with Inuit people. So, mm-hmm.

Now, when you talk about Indigenous people, where did they originate from if it's not from Canada?

Right. Well, there's lots of different sort of thoughts around that, but the thought is that that they, uh, kind of migrated from Asia around that part of the world through the Bering Sea and came over, um, onto the land that, that is known now as Canada. Uh, and, uh, that, that might not be the entire, uh, group, you know, there's not— they're not just one, one group, you know, around that, but that is sort of the, the idea around how the migration occurred. And over time, you know, many, uh, you know, centuries ago really, you know, around that. But that was the, the way that through the Bering Strait. And now that is even part of a bit of a controversy even around whether or not that, that's, that's possible. But that's the, that's the, uh, the idea I think that is, that is most prominent, sort of a migration from, from the east.

Now you mentioned, uh, the Indigenous people as several cultures. Um, do you face, uh, discrimination around these different cultures, or is it equally blended? Because I've heard, you know, pros and cons, right?

What do you mean a little bit by that, CB, in terms of me facing discrimination, like, as our— in our day-to-day life?

No, Indigenous people.

Oh.

So, you know, here in the United States, we have a separation of cultures, unfortunately, so that it affects individuals. So we have like the Black, the white, Latinx, the Asian population, you know, and you can pretty much look at somebody and see there's a difference. Right. We're under the thought that in Canada you all are white. And so do you face racism? Because I've heard that the Indigenous people are considered like all people of different colors.

Yeah, I would say 100%. Definitely. There is Definitely racism that is very overt in Canada. Absolutely. And certainly, of course, we have, you know, Indigenous are one group of people that are here in Canada, and there's— they make up maybe about 5% of the population. So, so there's not, you know, not Tons, but there's there's lots, right? That's still five percent of our of our population. But of course, there's also people who are other colors and from other cultures as well. We have you know Asian population, of course, and lots of people from different parts of the world. You know, all around. I mean, I couldn't even really list them all for sure. But there are you know I think Canada kind of has that idea around a melting pot. You know that that everyone from around the world. Can come and they kind of can just live, live their lives, uh, equally. Uh, but that's not true. There's lots of people, of course, from all over the world, uh, that live here, but there is definitely racism. So Indigenous people in particular have, um, experienced some terrible, uh, effects of racism because of the, the Canadian government's approach to Indigenous people, starting really, I guess, really as a point in time, we could start maybe around the late 1800s when European settlers came and colonized, took over Indigenous lands and started to subjugate Indigenous ways of being. And that morphed and went into the development of residential schools here in Canada, uh, where the effort was underway with the Canadian government and, uh, Catholics, uh, the Catholic Church to really eradicate Indigenous, um, identity and Indigenism. So what they did is they created a, uh, these residential schools, they were called, um, and among the Indian Act came into Canada. And so that actually gave that the government took Indigenous lands and took over the care. They created that dependency where Indigenous people's rights were taken away, and they created under the Indian Act a number of different actions that they that they could take. So one was taking away the lands. The second was to take away the children. They went on to into Indigenous families all across Canada and took away. Children. Uh, yeah, literally.

How do they recognize— because aren't indigenous— let me ask a stupid question.

It's not stupid.

Indigenous people white? Are their skins white?

No, they're mostly brown. Yeah, brown.

Different shade.

Yeah, brown. Yep, yep. Different— didn't look— yep, not white. Uh, yep. And they took the children forcibly from their homes. Many, many, many children for almost 100 years and forced them into live in these schools. They're called residential schools, and they were forced to live there, and they were treated terribly. They were abused in every imaginable way and beaten and, and just terrible. But, and the effort was deliberate, was to remove, to change them so they wouldn't be Indigenous. And they weren't called Indigenous, they were called Indians. So they wanted to change the Indians, the Indian Act, the Indians. So they wanted to make them more white, you know, more like European settlers.

By mixing the children?

Yes, they were. Yeah, so they were changing that so as they grew up they would be more, you know, more European and more white. So there's terrible— that was a terrible, obviously You know, terrible isn't really quite the word, just unbelievable. And that went on, like I said, to the 1970s, these residential schools. So there are many, many, many residential school survivors across Canada, Indigenous people who were just families destroyed, and the mental health of all of that has come out. So Um, there's still the, the Indian Act, uh, also created, uh, what they're called land, like, reserves. So Indigenous people were given land to go and live on that the government would, uh, oversee, uh, and, and kind of pay for, for them. So, so instead of having all the land, they were generally across Canada put onto these reserves, uh, to go and live. So it's created a terrible legacy, uh, for— or not like legacy, but a terrible dynamic, uh, for Indigenous people to live with, to live through. The traumatization of that, of those experiences, has been incredibly profound. Um, the change away from, you know, independent, fully, uh, fine functioning people within their culture, all of that destroyed. There was, there, for example, one in one group, one of their particular activities were called potlatch. And those were gatherings where they would get together, share meals and undertake cultural rituals. And that was actually outlawed against the law for them to get together and to have a potlatch, for example. So all these efforts were underway to oppress, marginalize, and really, again, subjugate this way of being. Very, very deliberate. So, you know, as a result, Indigenous people across Canada have come through and shown just such, to some extent, resilience. There are, you know, remain connected and, and have found their way forward even in this oppressive environment, of course, to continue to, uh, to, to live their, their way of being, their truth, you know, who they are, uh, in the face of terrible consequences. So it's terrible, it's really awful. But one of the things you might find shocking, CB, is that I was a child going through school and I never heard about this. I didn't even know that this was happening. I never learned about residential schools. I didn't know anything about this until I became an adult, and that's and I just sort of learned about it. Kind of came upon this information, so that was shocking for me to learn about this, and that in some ways you I know I kind of just grew up. With understanding that, you know, Indigenous Indians were one way, and that was, you know, how what I saw was what they— how their behavior was and how they were treated was just kind of normal, you know. And I mean, not— they weren't treated well, you know. And so it's terrible and disgraceful that, you know, that that's happened. So what you might be hearing about in the news is part of this, you know, resistance and this amazing, um, uh, I think speaking to the strength of these, of the culture of, and the, the unity, you know, that Indigenous people have created. Uh, but here in British Columbia, there was recently at one of the residential schools, the, they found, um, 215 unmarked graves of children. And that just, you know, set off such profound anger, of course, and upset and disbelief that this could happen. So these are unmarked graves of children that were forced to live in these residential schools, who never returned to their families, whose families never knew what happened to them. And since that happened maybe about, uh, 6 weeks, 2 months ago. There was another one, uh, found right in, in the middle of Canada on the prairies, uh, 600, I think over 600 graves at another residential school. So all of this is coming out, uh, now, uh, to the forefront even further around what Indigenous peoples experience with the Canadian government, uh, with the Catholic schools and just the pain of this experience, you know, within the different, you know, cultures, within the different nations, different First Nations groups. So it's really terrible. So Canada is going through a time of reckoning right now around the government's decisions to deliberately treat Indigenous people in this fashion, harm these children, and really, again, the elimination, the efforts that they, that they took to eliminate Indigenous culture, Indigenous people. Further to that, one of the, the next sort of thing that happened that has been big, a big time of reckoning too, is in the 1960s there's something that's known as the Sixties Scoop. And at that time, social workers were dispatched to families that had children and were removing them from their families and placing them with non-Indigenous, non-First Nations families. And part of that, if we can imagine, is that over time, families that have experienced such a trauma may have been struggling with other issues, you know, in their families for poverty, for example, being removed and taken out of the economy, their natural, the way that they were, Managing their economy was completely changed and moved over to market economy, and not provided or offered the same kind of orientation or skills, shall we say, to move into that, even if they didn't want that. So poverty is an issue; substance abuse is an issue. Often, of course, people are coping with a lot of the memories of being in residential schools, and also another thing that it's called intergenerational. Trauma. So children— so the survivors sort of transferring some of the trauma onto the children in their families as well. So all kinds of behaviors and problems that would come to the attention of the government. So the government came in, like I said, the Sixties Scoop came where they took many, many, many Indigenous children away here in BC. And place them with non-Indigenous families to be raised.

And how, how were they treated then? Were they treated like slaves in the house or what?

Well, it would depend. I think those are really, you know, a lot of individual kind of, uh, kind of stories, but I would say that the, the, the context of that is looking at, um, you know, Indigenous people as not managing, you know, less than. And that the children were— I mean, the children were completely— the kids that were taken into the residential schools were really dehumanizing, right? Like, that was the idea, was to dehumanize them. So I think, of course, that way of thinking and believing and understanding carried on. So when people— when the Sixties Scoop came and people would take one of those kids, I mean, it's possible that they weren't really thinking of them as As, uh, as children, you know, as, as—

Yeah.

Yeah, I don't know, you know, so, so I don't know. I mean, that's— so there's been lots and lots and lots of conversations and things coming out and, you know, uh, survivor stories from residential schools. There's many, many, many. I mean, like I said, they just closed in the 1970s, uh, or even later than that. Some of them might have been around, uh, even into the '80s. So it's not that long ago. So there's lots of survivors and there's lots of elders who were part of the, you know, sort of the— in their early years who've also lived a full life with all of those memories and experiences. So it's a whole thing that certainly Canada, the Canadian government, is being held accountable for right now around that, and obviously rightly so. It's terrible. So, so that's kind of the what's happening with the you know indigenous people in Canada and kind of where where things are going right now in terms of what's you know what what is the Canadian government you know going to say and do next around this? I mean, what can they do and say this was a terrible travesty? A lot of people refer to this as genocide. that's happened for Canadian people or, you know, Indigenous people in Canada. So it's certainly a big issue.

Well, I'm not surprised that you didn't know about it growing up because I believe here in the United States that the white population, a great deal of the white population when they were children, did not realize what was going on with the government and individuals with Black children. You know, when they went to school and they saw the segregation, then they became aware of it. But so many people grew up ignorant of what was going on. Because it— I don't know whether you could say it was done on purpose where information was not given to children or whether it was just a result of their culture, where they lived and how they lived, that they were not exposed to it. So, you know, throughout the world, we find situations where when people became adults, they said, I didn't know this was going on. And this also happens in the cultures that are affected by it. In the Black culture, where parents protected their children, not in all cases, but in many cases where parents did their best to protect their children and give them quote unquote normalcy in growing up. So it's not surprising. What is surprising to me is that I spoke to— I'm going to try to keep this confidential, but I spoke spoke to someone who's living in Canada, who also lives in the United States, but is mostly in Canada. And he's the one who first informed me about the Indigenous population in Canada. And I said, very naively—

Indigenous people.

So how do you recognize them? Because my thinking is that they're all white, right? I could see if you were talking about Black versus white, but in the minds of many Americans, Canada is a white country, right? And his response to me was quite different from yours. And they said, well, you can tell by their clothing and how they speak. And so I sat there, now that I'm listening to you and I'm hearing that they are of different color, what does that say to people who are not even seeing their color? I mean, it's just like in the United States where you have white people saying, well, I don't see color. How could you not see color? You know, I, I understand that what you're trying to say is color doesn't matter to me, right? But for you to say I don't see color, that has become very suspect now.

Yeah, it's— yeah, definitely. Well, you know, I should clarify that there are, um, there's— there— I mean, and I'm just like saying that broadly, uh, but there are 3 kind of groups. There's Métis, Inuit, and another group here that are kind of thought to be the sort of the main kind of groups of Indigenous people. And Métis people— and there can— and this is certainly an interesting question that you ask because people, you know, how they self-identify as Indigenous is obviously a subjective kind of thing. Métis people, often they were Indigenous people that met with Scottish people. So a lot of up in Scotland, so a lot of Métis people have white, white skin, whitish skin. And it looks probably something like me. My family's Scottish around that. So, yeah, so that's one kind of group, and that's not everyone, of course, Métis, you know. So I think that the whole— around the sort of the skin colour can really be different, you know, around that. So I think one issue that comes up in sort of around to what you were saying around skin colour and how people identify around that is Some people have gone through an experience to look into their past and have discovered that they are—they're white. They look white, but they have a very strong indigenous ancestry. So then they are identifying. They're learning. Should I? You know how? Who am I? Am I? Am I? I am indigenous, but I look—I am white as well. I live the. Life of somebody with white privilege, but I also now discover this other part of myself around that. So what does this mean, you know, from that kind of side of things? So, you know, so that's an interesting kind of piece of that as well, right, kind of around the skin color piece. What does it mean and how does that, you know, how do we identify ourselves then, you know, through that, you know, based on that?

So, and were the people who mated with the Scottish people, were they still subject to their children being removed from their family?

Um, you know, I'm gonna say that most of this activity that I'm aware of around the Sixties Scoop was in particular around in British Columbia, though it probably happened elsewhere. But I would say say that, and I'm, you know, not an expert in that area, but I would suggest that the children who were removed were from families who were living, you know, in what the government would identify as an Indigenous way of being, you know. So however that looked, maybe they were on reserve or maybe they were you know, whatever it was that indicated, or, you know, how they— maybe they had a register. I'm not sure exactly how, how that was identified, but it's, it's possible, you know, certainly.

So is there a plan that— I'm asking you as though you're part of the government, but you may know— is there a plan to go to all of the reservation schools now and, and With dogs and see if there's remains?

Um, well, you know, I— it's funny that the government's not driving that, right? That it's, uh, it's the indigenous people themselves that are part— their nations are the ones who are, are driving that. The government is, uh, is not.

Yeah, I'm right. Yeah, it's not funny because it's— yeah, yeah. want to be exposed. And what, what, you know, what comes to mind is, and I don't remember who said it was, if it was your prime minister or what, who said, well, racism is an American problem, we don't have that in Canada. And I'm like, um, this is a very interesting statement now. And it's, it's kind of like a mental block. I don't want to— I don't want our people to think that we have this problem. But meantime, yeah, big problem.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, I think that that's— I think that just speaks a little bit more to the denial, I guess, around that, you know, and the government's not interested in addressing these issues at a systemic level. And I think, you know, and I wonder, you might agree with me on this, but, and this has been my experience with this work around diversity, equity, and inclusion kind of work is that, you know, it's a double burden for people who are experiencing oppression and marginalization are often the same ones who also need to raise the awareness in society and to create the change, right?

Yes.

They experience that, then they also have to be the ones to lift it up, right, and into that. And I think this is a really good example of that with what's happening in Canada. You know, this has come from, um, yeah, Indigenous groups themselves who are— they've always, of course, they've always spoken out against, uh, against all of this. Uh, but yeah, finding, um, finding those mass graves has certainly, um, uh, other groups are also doing the same, right, to find that. So.

Did the population know about the graves or they just thought their children disappeared? Just it never even occurred to them to ask. Did they know that there were graves in recent years and in years past? Did they know they were being killed? What was going on?

Well, I heard an interview with one of the survivors, a couple of survivors, and he said, and many other survivors said the same, that they knew that this was happening. Because their, you know, their, you know, roommate, you know, would disappear and never come back. So they, they, they, they, they knew that, that something was happening, that they were being killed and, and never coming back. So from what I, I saw in the conversations, the residential school survivors who spoke out said they're not surprised at all that this has happened in many, many Other Indigenous people that were talking about this said they're not surprised in the least that this is what's happened.

Did the parents know at the time?

No, I don't know if they knew what happened because a lot of the children never came back. So I don't know if they, you know, I'm not— it's not really, you know, kind of clear that they just then logically kind of assumed that their children were were— had been killed or died, um, or if they thought, um, that they were still, you know, in, in the system and just hadn't come back yet.

How did the survivors get out? I mean, was there a certain age in which they had to be released, or how did that— how did that work?

Yeah, I'm not entirely 100% sure, but my sense from these conversations is that they would kind of age out of that system. And what the idea— the whole idea was that they would be, you know, kind of recreated. So they would go back into society espousing, you know, white culture ideals. They would go and get a job and, you know, and be part of society, white mainstream society. So, so a lot of them, I believe, you know, had reached the age where they were able to, to leave. Uh, a lot of them ran away, uh, and, and left, but that was, um, that was difficult as well because they had kind of escaped, you know, so they were kind of, uh, on the run, you know, leading that kind of life. Uh, but that is my sense.

Those that escaped, did they go back to To their families, or they just—

Yes, they would go back sometimes. I mean, I've heard a few stories, you know, they would go run back to their families, go back to their families, and then they would be kind of re— uh, recaptured essentially sometimes and brought back. Uh, you know, just very, very blatant and explicit, you know, definitely, you know, around that. So the families were not able to, to not turn their children over. They had to hand their children over. And they faced severe consequences if they did not do that. So they were forced to do that.

Did the government know that the children existed?

The children in the graves?

No, the parents. How did they know that they existed in order to get them into these schools?

Well, I believe that they had— the government had a list Essentially, because under the Indian Act they, uh, kept a, uh, a census, I guess, of sorts, uh, where they, they had a, you know, a way to identify who was, uh, Indigenous. And they were able to then kind of methodically plan out, you know, where the residential schools would go and then what sort of area the, you know, from what areas the kids would be, uh, the children would be taken and placed.

My question comes from, were the parents, the moms, did they go to hospitals to have the children, or did they have them at home and try to hide the children?

Well, I'm not really sure. I suspect there could be a number of answers around that, for sure, around that. I mean, I have also heard stories of families doing just that, trying to, you know, hide and to go away. How many, I'm not sure, of course, but that was certainly something. Whether or not I think that it would probably depend as well whether or not, you know, women would go into the hospitals to have children. I mean, the hospitals was another institution that was designed and developed, you know, to quash any kind of Indigenous indigeneity really around that. Here in British Columbia, for example, in Nanaimo on this Island, there was an Indian hospital, and it— that is just coming to light now. That's been known, but it was the basement of the general hospital where Indians, Indian kids, their Indian people they're called, were sent for treatment down there. And it was subpar treatment of it for Indigenous people around that. So stories are starting to emerge about those experiences. And I believe in the news there was even some conversation about another possible area, maybe where there's— there might be other people buried around that area. Now, that might be part of something else, but there's another kind of linkage that I heard kind of around more speaking again to the culture, you know, around how Indigenous people were viewed and treated, definitely. So I don't know that women were going to the hospitals. I don't know if they needed to, you know, around that. I mean, I think it might, might have depended around that, but I think the government was able to, to figure out who was Indigenous and, and how to approach that, those families, to take those children.

Figure out who was pregnant and be on the ready to sadly remove these children.

Yeah, right. Yeah.

Well, thank you for giving us a view into the part of Canada that few of us knew about. In fact, I think few Canadians actually knew about. So I appreciate that. Now, I know that you're doing also a lot of work with women. Please tell us What's going on? And is this only Canadian women, or is it across different countries? What's going on there?

Yeah, so, you know, I came up through the, uh, third wave of feminism, and my, my area of interest and work has really been around supporting women. Um, and that really came from, um, a time when I was— I was around 14, and, uh, I started to become aware that children could experience abuse by their parents. And I thought I wanted to become the Minister of Social Services so I could take these lived experiences, these so-called stories, and use that to make sure that the right so-called services and programs in the mind of a 14-year-old would be in place. That was really important to make sure that the right thing was happening for these kids. So that got me onto a path towards social work. And that was my first my first career. And the core values around social work are diversity, equity, and inclusion. So it's always looking at the individual and then figuring out what changes need to happen in society to improve these individual situations. So one of the things that, that I experienced early in my career was women, working with women who'd experienced abuse and violence, and working in emergency room. I worked in victim services, which is through the police and, and, and you know, women coming in with acute injuries from being abused and beaten and harmed. And that really sparked in me a sense of, you know, outrage around why is this happening? Why is our society accepting of this issue? That this is a kind of a normalized issue going on. And I worked with many, many, many women in those circumstances. So that really has been kind of my area of advocacy, and my interest has been really creating, working to create social change, you know, around that, what policies and programs really that are aiming to change the dynamic, the way of thinking around abuse of women. So, you know, that's been a theme throughout my entire career. So These days, what's happening for women, I think, is around COVID. You know, all of these changes with our work environment. But I also think, you know, the events in the U.S. around the murder of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor, the efforts again of Black Lives Matter movement to raise the awareness around systemic racism has created a change, I think, for people. Especially women around the sense of purpose and where to go. And not only for women, but the women that I've been speaking with have been really looking for work that aligns with their purpose and their values and kind of taking a step back. So, I think that's something. There's just a huge shift going on. One woman that I was speaking with described this phenomenon called woke, right? Where sort of a veil is lifted or something's happened where people are like, what is going on? This is not okay. This isn't who I— what I align with, what I believe in. So, a lot of my work has been around coaching women around finding the way to their path. They know what they want. But sometimes, it's helpful, as you know, as a coach too, to work with people through that process. So, um, a lot of, um, you know, just a, a lot of issues have come to light around, um, women, um, all kinds of women, uh, um, from all kinds of experiences, and women, you know, finding their way forward, I think, in that, uh, in this area for their, their work and their life purpose and what it is that they, that they want to do. And it's interesting because a lot of the conversations that I've been having have been around women with children in particular and kind of resisting this idea that you leave your being a mom at your house and you come and you show up, you do your 9 to 5, and then you go back right into that. So, I think this whole idea around bringing our whole selves to work and who we are is really resonating strongly with women. And I think this gig economy, these changes with COVID are really enabling strong foundation for women to say, you know what, I'm not gonna go and pump in the cubicle. You know, I'm not gonna go and leave my kids, you know, when that's not what they want, you know, with whatever in order to satisfy the needs of this organization. You know, this isn't the whole me piece. Now, for some women, that's fine. But for other women that are kind of struggling with that, I think there's an opportunity, you know, for them to kind of align with that.

You know, I think it's interesting that on several things, uh, one is, and this is very disturbing, that the COVID shots, um, the success of the shots, they were only tested on men.

Hmm.

And so you're seeing the, um, you're seeing, for example, in the J&J one, you're seeing negative positive results happening more with women, is my understanding, and I'd be glad to be challenged on this, than with men. And one of the reasons is that it was tested on men. And when I, when I speak to people who are in the medical space, in the biomed space, and they're saying, yeah, CB, Drugs are always tested on men. And I'm— what? Unless it's a female-related drug, it's usually tested on men. And so we see adverse reactions. And it reminds me of the other day I was in the garden shop and I saw a woman using walking sticks. It was an interesting scenario because her daughter was with her and I could see her daughter Just by body language was a little embarrassed that her mom was using walking sticks as I was watching them out of the corner of my eye. And so I turned to the mom and I said, I love your walking sticks. How do they work? And the daughter just kind of started to stand up straight, you know, and move closer to her mom. And she said, well, I use them for balance. And I said, my husband gave me a pair, which he did because he knew that I liked to walk. And our neighbor uses them. So we're here in Colorado. So, you know, all kinds of things regarding sports activities, I think, are tested here, right?

Yeah.

And walking sticks are kind of popular here, right? And so she said, I got a flu shot. And one ended up with lesions on my spine, which hospitalized me for a long time. And then I was in a wheelchair. And then I just— I started to get up and use walking sticks. And I said, that is interesting. And I walked away and I thought, again, not tested completely on women. I've never heard this result. But, you know, There's all kinds of things that are happening that you don't hear about. But in my conversation, I said to her, will you show me how you use them? And she showed me. And the daughter, by the time I finished talking to the mom, was just beaming with pride that her mom was using walking sticks now. And somebody came up and asked about them, you know. So it's interesting how we women can support support each other. We just pay attention, right?

Yeah, absolutely.

Um, the other thing that struck me is when, as you're talking about women saying, I'm not, I'm not going to do this anymore, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, we're hearing that as a result of the men coming out and saying, I'm not going to do this anymore. All of a sudden now the women are saying, I'm not going to do this anymore. I don't know which came first, the chicken or the egg. Was it the women saying it or the men saying it? But all in all, we're getting— this is what I'm talking about in the middle of an interview.

Yeah.

On my computer, you know. Yeah. I don't— it's interesting to see who's leading the charge.

Mm-hmm.

But I am seeing it. And what I'm also seeing is that in a labor market, a lot of people are saying, this is not what I want. So in the United States, they're taking advantage of the unemployment Boost, which is offering money enough for people to say, I don't have to deal with this anymore. And I go into stores like I went into a furniture store here, which I won't name because I don't think their customer service is top-notch. But so I won't give them a little plug there. The store is usually brim to brim with furniture. And in my former life, I was an interior designer. And I said to my husband, it's like 50% full than when we were here last time. And he said, oh, no, no, it's your imagination. I said, let me tell you what's missing. And I started— and he said, oh my God, you're right. Also going into Costco, I said, what the heck is going on? Every time I come in, you don't have my favorite thing that I know you've carried for years and years. Shrimp, size 16, in a bag of like, second bag. And he said, gee, CB, I didn't even realize that we don't have it. I said, yeah, you're out of corn brisket, you're out of— and he goes, what do you— have you— is the store memorized in your head? And I said, absolutely. And he said, it's the labor market. I said, it's not COVID? He said, no, it's the labor market. Nobody wants to work anymore. And is it because people are saying, I don't want to do this anymore, or that they're collecting more money on unemployment? What, what is your idea of what's going on?

Well, I think that the— if you remember the first week, as it was, I'm sure, in North America, when all of a sudden everything closed down. And all of a sudden, we had to work from home. And it was so shocking and just so weird, right? So bizarre. And of course, now we fast forward 18 months later and we have a new normal. And I think that that has just created through that process the awareness because corporations sort of broadly speaking managed to pivot, right? The work is getting done. People are working from home. People had the opportunity And this is broadly speaking, not the same for everybody. But a chance for their, shall we call it, the work-life balance. People saw their families during the day. They did their work. They were able to focus on being productive and then have the better integration. And I think that that's really, that's my sense of what's behind it. On top of it is this whole diversity, equity, and inclusion movement. And GAIN really fueled I think in North America by Black Lives Matter in response to George Floyd created such an important shift in our thinking. And I think that that's probably for men and women around that was where is, how am I feeling included in this environment? Who am I working for? Why am I, where am I in this Sort of narrative around that, this sort of top-down kind of idea. So, I think that there's just been a—

Saying, is this really— does this represent my values?

Yeah, that's right. Exactly. And also why, because I think now what started to happen was this whole conversation of, okay, when are we coming back to the office? And people who are being productive at home and we're fine saying, well, I'm not sure that that's really what I want. So, you've seen those conversations around that. What does back to office look like? Is it going to even happen? And so, I think there's just been so many different inputs around that with the pandemic, then what was happening in the US with George Floyd. And I think the DEI, diversity, equity, inclusion, really is a strong, almost a movement as well out of that.

Yeah.

And I think that all 3 of these things together have created You know, and the gig economy, right, really around that has created these opportunities for change.

In the United States, we've actually been experiencing 5 different pandemics, and they've all collided. We've had social justice, we've had COVID, we've had the economy, we've had health, and we've had the environment. Yeah. And all 5 has You know, it's created this hole, and people are really— you know, when you start to see people around you dying that you did not expect to die, you start to say, hey, wait a second, let me examine what am I doing with my life? Who am I?

Yeah.

Why am I with this company? And you think that it's only the upper echelon who could afford to ask these questions.

I know.

But because of the Unemployment Pay Act that's happening, people in the lower-level jobs, the bottom of the triangle, have now had a chance to say, maybe not so much. Maybe it's time for me to go back to school. Maybe it's time for me to shift careers. It's really— and I didn't see that one coming. I mean, we were already in a war on talent, as we call it here in the United States, and this just blew it up.

Yeah.

So now it's affecting products and services, not so much services, I think, but more products than what we expected. And as I talk to my friends at Costco, they are saying to me, we are going to have a food shortage and we're on the tip of it now. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Scary in the United States because we are spoiled rotten.

Right.

Oh yeah, I think I will have a pineapple on December 25th. Okay, fine. We'll just go to Costco and get it. You know, or whatever. Totally.

Yeah, I think it's the same here in Canada as well. I mean, broadly speaking, I speak from the east or from the west here, but you know, that's the conversation that there, there's not enough people working, uh, that want to work, you know, to, to do that from these various— for various reasons, you know. So, uh, around that, so it's really interesting to see how, you know, what the, you know, the corporate world's got— it's, it's, it's reversed now in the Corporations need to incentivize workers to come and say, why? What is it that— what's in it for you to come and give up this part of your life? It's not just a given now that workers are gonna be willing to give up these pieces of their life. 'Cause I think that that's the thing is that people realized and had a chance to go for walks with their kids at lunch hour. They got a chance to attend to some other things and then they got a chance to do their fulfilling work that they wanted to do.

And women, you know. Yeah, yeah. Colorado, it's really, you know, you see— I gotta tell you, you see more men walking with their children, uh, biking with their children than you see the moms.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So different from, you know, New York, New Jersey, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

attention. And, you know, I, I love that it's now all levels of people.

Yeah.

All races of people are really saying— and you know what, it's making our job, you and myself, easier as coaches. Because before, we had to coach leaders to take care of their people, to pay to their employees, right? Now it is, oops, I really need to pay attention to get people to come back to work.

Yeah.

My company is gone. It's history. We are seeing the closing of JCPenney's. We're seeing, you know, more than ever before. Well, you can't get workers, you can't get workers, then you can't get customers. Hello.

Yeah, I know, right? And that for me really was the tipping point to step fully back into diversity, equity, inclusion work because of the response from, I'm going to say, the corporate world around this. And whether or not they actually believe in DEI, it doesn't really matter. You need to attend to it, right, for all of these reasons because there's a demand. for this. There's an expectation that you're going to, and hopefully along the way, there'll be some mind transformation, transformational change on the part of individuals in the organizations. But I think, yeah, it's flipped around and now you've got to get on board, right? This is what— if you're going to want workers, this is what it needs to look like.

Yes. Here's the problem that we are facing as coaches because— I'm going to phrase it like this— because organizations are starving right now, their focus is metaphorically putting food on the table. So again, they're losing sight of— and this contradicts what I just said— they're losing sight on what they need to do for inclusion. They're separating out putting food on the table with inclusion at this particular point. And this is a problem that's coming up.

Yeah.

It's just like when the economy dipped and you removed the research department. You removed, you know, future development. departments. And so therefore, when COVID hit, you didn't have alternate resources to cover your back as an organization.

Mm-hmm.

Companies, big companies that produced bakery products, because everybody had to go to the store and collect everything and then run back home, did okay. But what they missed was the psychographic of the customer. The customer now had time to spend with their children, to go back to your great-grandma, to cook.

Yeah.

Together as a family activity.

Yeah.

So before, we had a shortage on eggs, we had a shortage on milk, we had a shortage on baking soda. baking powder. Now, if the baking companies had seen this coming, they would have had line extensions out from their R&D departments. They didn't do it. They missed it.

Yep, 100%. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, so I think that's really a thing.

I see we're running out of time, and it's been such a great, uh, academic psychological conversation with you. I know that you— your work is in supporting women and in the DEI space, yet you gave us a glimpse into another country to see that we are not alone in these struggles for inclusion.

Mm-hmm.

It's a universal struggle, and we need to learn from each other versus separating out the countries and saying it's not our problem. We all seem to have the problem, and the way that we will solve is all together. So thank you so much. Well, thank you so much.

I really appreciate again the opportunity to talk about this, and I, I agree. I think that's really my sentiment as well, is that generally speaking, we're all in this together. Absolutely. And there isn't one right answer. But I really think that conversations like this really help to create change. And I think that that's really, really important. So thank you so much for the opportunity.

Thank you. The awareness and then bonding together across nations is going to be so important to us.

Absolutely.

Thank you so much.

Thank you so much.

Hey, everybody. It's so good to see you again. I'm gonna miss you for a couple of months, but go out, take in the air, be happy that you are walking this earth. To get serious for a moment, reach out to neighbors and people that you haven't had a chance to shake hands with and get to know. And get to know, as my friend Dr. Mungazi says from South Africa, let's keep that expression of I see you alive, which means that you're not seeing the exterior, you're seeing the interior, and you're respecting the interior, and you're learning the interior of people while we are away. And then please send me via LinkedIn some great stories about people you've met and things that you've learned. I'd love to know. Bye! This is CB Bowman Live. See you in September. Bye now. Oh, I forgot to give you a secret. Okay, let's see, what can the secret be?

I know.

The secret is that you are going to reach out to people and expand, and maybe your neighbors and friends won't. So that'll be a secret thing that we'll talk about. And send me notes, okay? All right, bye everybody! It's CB Bowman Live with our guests Carrie, Eric, and have a wonderful summer. Bye now! Bye!