CB Bowman LIVE: Challenges of the C-Suite: Guest Howard Morgan, Episode 60

Okay, everybody, I'm so excited to see you all. Listen, you know, I always say this, that I have spectacular guests, but this man is a riot in addition to being so brilliant. I'm so— it's— first of all, okay, let's go back. Welcome to CB Bowman Live. Today is Challenges of the C-Suite. Hey, what do you think of my look today? I'm rocking my sort of beatnik look, you know, from years past. You gotta love it, right? I'm like tired. I was feeling very boring in my appearance. I decided I'm just gonna rock it out today. So with that, I have the perfect guest, right?

That's right.

When we were young— oh my God, I'm sounding so old— and, um, you know, sort of like our paths crossed in like weird ways. So I am here to introduce you to Howard Morgan today. Now you're thinking, okay, who is this dude? I don't know his name. Why not? Why don't you? Okay, because he owns a company called— I want to get it right— Leadership Research Institute.

Well done.

That is a heavy lift. So we are going to find out about the guy, about what he does, and most importantly, since he's a research person, what is he seeing as the challenges in the C-suite for today? Because you know what, We've just gone through 5 pandemics, which you've heard me talk about. And there's got to be a change in our leadership model. And I've been hearing people say, well, you know, you're asking for leaders to become very feminine. First of all, there's nothing wrong with that. Okay, can we talk? But— What does that mean for our future? And is that a true statement? So let's go camera switch to the expert, Howard.

Thank you for joining us.

I'm super excited. Hey, Elena is on. She's listening.

Oh, wonderful.

Uh-oh, that means we better behave ourselves.

Uh-oh, uh-oh. We better not say anything about Elena.

Oh no, not at all.

Hey guys, only good things.

What I explained to you Transparency, Howard is part of Marshall Goldsmith MG100 with me and Elena. So that's why we're teasing each other. So Howard, what say you this morning? Tell us about— let's see, where should we start? Let's start with, um, how you're growing up, because it's amazing when you tell me about companies you had as a child, and you're still full out working and leading.

Crazy, isn't it?

I don't get it.

As in my old age, and as I was saying to CB, I have this little Dennis the Menace thing that flips up now. Um, never had it before for the first 70 years, but now I got it. So, um, well, it's interesting. I mean, CB said that And I think, by the way, it's allowed me to be a much better person and leader. I formed my first company when I was 13, which has done phenomenally well, still exists, still is highly successful, profitable. The reason I say I've learned a lot from it is I own the company, but it's totally employee-run. And for the most part, I give all the money back to them. So in other words, it's— and I have the distinct honor, and it really is an honor, of getting like letters from grandmothers that thank me for helping put through their children through school because they've been obviously made enough money because of sort of passing on the money back that they've been allowed to do that for their grandkids. So, I mean, there's things like that. And as a result, I really do believe in the power And well-intentioned of people. I think we get off track sometimes. But so, but growing up, I was always somebody— we didn't have a lot of money. Matter of fact, we used to have what was called little steaks, which were chopped up Spam, just for those that— and yeah, most people gag about this point. But it's, but it's, you know, it— and as a result, it was kind of, it's kind of interesting when you grow up that way, because you probably learn not to judge people as much, realistically, I think. Um, because you sort of— you're— you really don't have enough yourself to judge people. So you, as a result, you look at other people and they're just people. Um, so it's a good thing.

But Howard, so explain to us.

Sure.

You grew up not having a lot of money. And by the way, I remember Spam cakes also.

Excellent.

Spam was really good. You know, I don't know what's happened to it since, but—

You know why? It's a delicacy.

Yeah, I can believe that, right? Um, and then you form a company at age 13. It does well. Why didn't you keep all the money? Why weren't you raised to keep what you earned? Why did you give it all back?

What That's a great question.

How does it surprise you?

Yeah, I think it's a great question. I mean, I think part of it is when you don't have money, you sort of look— there's an element of, I think, in success for all of us that comes from hard work, and there's a part of it that comes from luck. And I think sometimes what we do is we think everything we get is because of us. Um, you start learning pretty quickly that You know, other people make a difference, right? So, so you can treat that two ways. For me, it sort of became, how do I share some of that? I mean, it sort of started a little bit, a little bit of sharing. Now it's a lot of sharing, but a little bit of sharing. And part of this is you sort of start— it's back to a subject near and dear to all of our hearts, which is you learn how to look at diversity not only from a race, gender, but look at it from What can people contribute? And and I think sometimes what we do, I believe everybody can contribute something. And like a lot of the time, what we do is we we mistake an intelligence for street knowledge. And I think somebody that truly can appreciate and value everybody and not look down on them is a is somebody who's a valuable asset because they got their. With some luck too, right? They got there from more than just— and in my case, phenomenally lucky. I mean, I ended up being in broadcasting. I mean, by the time I was 19 and 20, I was set. I mean, the rest of my life was set. So, it changes in some ways. I always chuckle with people because I say, not having to worry about qualifying for a mortgage when you're 20 causes you to think differently about how you look at people and how you lead.

But, but we've seen time and time again people who've had, uh, the fortune that you had turn the opposite way. They become very, it's all about me, um, you know, others have to make it because I made it the hard way.

Yeah.

I'm gonna get to the nugget of what makes you think so differently and at such a young age?

Well, you know, I probably owe it to— it's going to sound a bit ridiculous, but I owe it to a person named Stacy. Stacy is somebody who I met in grade 8. So, you know, here I am at a rip-roaring age of like 13, 14, and Stacy is probably 18. He's a Black gentleman. that realistically has been thrown out of every school. So he arrives at our school. And he just kind of looked, I mean, I learned a lot from Stacy. All he wanted to do is have people that were honest, people that wouldn't sort of abuse him, look down on him. So he and I actually became pretty close friends. And it's always funny because I was somebody who could be bullied very easily. And What was great about Stacy is that Stacy would sort of protect me. And as a result, I would sort of protect him. So there was one quick story I'll tell you, CB. It's funny. And it would never happen in today's world. But we're in French class because born and raised in Canada. And the teacher is whapping one of those rulers with a handle, whapping over the head. She used to do it with each of us until we would come up with the right interpretation or answer. So Stacy, she's doing it once and just obviously did it once too often. Stacy picks up that ruler and breaks it over her head. Now she immediately sends Stacy to the principal's office. And Stacy, all of a sudden, I, you know, about 5 minutes later, you remember we used to have intercoms or speakers, and they said, well, Howard Morgan, please come to the principal's office. Well, Howard— So I go down there and Stacy's outside the principal's office. And I go, hi, Stacy. I said, what's up? He goes, I don't know. I've been sitting here since I got thrown out of class. So, I went in the principal's office. Principal's office says, you have to do something about this. I came out. I'm 14. He says, you have to do something about this. I said, what would you like me to do? He said, I'm afraid to meet with Stacy.

What? Oh yeah.

Oh no, Stacy was just— could hold his own. So, I said, well, that isn't my problem. And I said, um, he said, well, Stacy hit a teacher. And I said, yeah, the teacher's been hitting us for a long time. And he said, well, you, you know, what am I supposed to do? And I said, well, I can tell you right now, you better get this teacher to quit hitting us because otherwise Stacy's probably going to bop her again. And so he said, well, what do you think? What do you think would make this go in? I said, you tell Stacy to be more patient next time and come down and report it to you. and forget everything and we'll all go back to class. And that's what happened. So, you know, I think you have to learn what's fair and equitable to your point. So in other words, I think live your life as if it's that you're responsible for the outcome of you.

Hmm.

If you, and I think sometimes, so I'm a great believer that says you don't change anything until you change yourself. So if you change, if you look at it as what can I do to be better? And that's just a— I'll tell you more about that later. But there's— if I treat my life that way, then obviously I don't judge others until I judge myself. It also makes for a much better leader. I think if leaders actually looked hard in themselves and said, what am I doing to make this organization, this group better and more credible? Then in essence, we'd have a much better outcome. I think we've spent 50 years in the leadership world trying to come up with nifty little things like manage by Objectives, goal setting, you know quality circles, and all of it's trying to do the same thing, which is how do we make people sort of work well together? Quickest way to make people work together is have a great leader. And and if great leaders have no trouble getting the best out of people, and I would you know for your audience one of the things I'd always say if you if you wonder who those people are, I've done this. It's a fun exercise. Go to people in the organization and say, if you could go to work for any one person in this organization, who would it be? And it's shocking how often they come up with like 2 names.

Wow!

So, they know who the good people are. Now, if you say, who are the 2 people you never want to work for? They'll come up with the same 2 names there too. So, we as leaders have to say, If they know that, why are we not listening enough that we don't hear it?

Okay, so then the question becomes, we have all these management leadership methodologies and techniques, as you've mentioned. Is it because, well, we're still all trying to figure it out? And we, and we're not paying attention to really what's at hand here, which is our sows. We're looking for a quick answer, a quick solution that seems to be global.

Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, it's an oversimplification, right? But, but I think you're right. I think, you know, we always look— if you think about anything we do with people, let's talk about return on investment. We do a lot of work on that. People, I would say, you're not going to see a people-person return on investment for 4 years. It takes that long for it to work through. You can start to see it, but it's a little bit like the lifetime value of a customer. You don't— if you make some changes in customer-facing roles, for the first year or 2, it'll stay a little above flat, and then it skyrockets in year 4. I think the same thing happens with people in an organization. I think they One of my pet peeves is I think we train to build skills, not to help people understand how to apply those skills. So, when you talk about the training, a lot of time what we do is we give them really good stuff. But if I don't know how to use it, I'm going to revert back, which is the other thing we've learned over the years, by the way, is if I don't feel comfortable doing something, I'll go back to my old way of doing things.

That's true. Very true. Yeah. And part of the way Martin Lindstrom has an exercise in his book, in his, in his teachings, and he says, when you take a shower in the morning, you start with a certain part of your body all the time. And I didn't realize that until he said it. And he said, try the other side of your body the next time.

Yep.

Reminds me of my S training.

Yep.

When you go into an elevator, instead of facing the door, face the crowd.

Yep.

What, what drives that uncomfortable feeling, that, that feeling of, oh my God, I've got to do something new, it's not routine. And so it really starts to force you to look at what's behind your movement and what's behind your thinking?

Yeah, it's a game. I think your example is fantastic and Martin's also fantastic. But if you're not careful, you take the easy way out rather than the right way out. And it's a little bit like, I mean, I think one of the— and Marshall and I developed this years ago and it still holds true. That's Marshall Goldsmith. Commitment to self-improvement is the highest predictor of success on every variable for a company as to if they see a company is committed to improving, their clients appreciate and value them more. We do the same with leaders. If I think a leader is open to new ways of doing things, I give more value to them. And I can always remember once I had a A brand new CEO that was going—

Within that, though, yeah, we have to be careful because I remember my days at General Foods and it was leadership by flavor. I'm gonna call it flavor of the month. So we would be open to new ways, but each month the leader at the top was changing those new ways and you couldn't digest it.

So, but remember, I think you're right, CB. Remember, it's commitment to self-improvement. So, I would argue those are programs again. I think what has to happen is a program assists us in getting better. So, case in point, if I want to go learn something, right? It's I can take a program. But if I don't practice it, remember the famous joke about Carnegie Hall, right?

Yes.

Is if I don't practice it, I won't get that good. It's the very reason why you might have heard this, but I use this a lot of times, is I'll say, you know, who's the most difficult person to coach in a sport? A beginner, an intermediate, or a professional? Do you know what the answer to that is?

Professional.

No, intermediate. Here's why. An intermediate has to unlearn some things to relearn them to get them to professional. Professionals have already figured out I may be arrogant, but I also know the value of a coach.

OK.

And beginners, all the help they can get. So a lot of us in a corporate sense are intermediate at our game. And because we're intermediate, we go, yeah, but you're asking me to potentially try some things that may have me not as successful. The company may not view that positively. And that becomes the speed bump.

Okay. All right. So let's take what we're talking about now and apply that to leadership today.

Sure.

Where are we coming out of these pandemics?

First of all, I think you can look at a macro and a mini level. I think on a macro level, one of our challenges are if a company says, I'm going to revert back to the way I did things before, it's a missed opportunity. What I've done with my clients is push them hard, in some cases really hard, saying, this is a chance for you to reinvent your whole company. The world will be different. We know that. But more importantly than that is look at everything from diversity, inclusion. Look at it from a leadership point of view. How do you build the company you always wanted to have? So, that's a macro. I think we're seeing that a bit now when you take a look at how difficult it is to get people. I think what we have to do is again look at our own lives and say, what have I learned in the pandemic that I can apply going back? And what are skills that probably I've learned I had that I didn't have? And how do I apply that on the job? You know, I think that's what we need to do. I mean, it's funny. I spent 3 years before the pandemic preaching to people they needed agility. We've now perfected the art of agility. It's out of my repertoire, right?

Okay, I get it. Yes.

Yeah, we and and again, I you know the sad part is I think we may very well. I think we've learned a lot about international, but we've also compartmentalized. And what we the what the pandemic's done that frustrates me? The pandemic. Has created people to be competitive about about the virus. I'm thinking this is the craziest thing I've ever heard. Like all my relatives in Canada, right? So it's like we're we have better results than you do, and I'm going if anyone's dying, I don't care who's got good or bad results. And I think what we're seeing is in many ways the nature of somehow what we can be that we need to change. I think we see it around social issues, right? So all of that's in the same category, is if I'm not careful, I'm not looking at how I do my part to change things rather than my part to judge things.

So true. And here's what, here's what I'm seeing is because of the work that, uh, Elena and I are doing in diversity and inclusion, right? We had, upon the killing of we had all-out companies say, we've got to do something. What can we do? We need to make change. OK. We heard it en masse—

Mm-hmm.

Versus before in our society, much more than before. Now we look at these same companies, and they're saying, yeah, diversity is important. We get it. It's stronger than before. But because of the 5 pandemics, because now we're in a new pandemic, which is the war on talent—

Yep.

We have to focus on surviving. We have to focus on getting those numbers back up to profitability— not to profitability, to high profitability. So yeah, we now clearly understand Diversity is important. However, it's profitability, it's mental health. We now have to move that diversity into the mental health space because of burnout and because people are breaking down because of the viruses we've been through, the pandemics we've been through, and our numbers are down and we have to get them back up. There's, you know, So, peop— short-term memory. I don't know if— let me take that back. I don't know if I'm going to call it short-term memory. I'm going to call it so much missed opportunity, right? Because now you're going back to the mode of where you were before the pandemics, and you're not seeing it. And, and as coaches, I don't know what we can do about it as people in training. I don't know what we can do about it, especially those of us that are in the D&I space, because now you're saying, yeah, I get it. But before you may have said, no, I didn't. I don't, I don't, you know, it's not me. But now you're selecting to ignore it. For the sake of profitability. That's a big issue.

No, I agree with you. And I think, CB, what's behind what you're saying that kind of goes unstated is when you're starting back up and you're— we're coming out of this pandemic, it's a chance for you to have a completely new beginning, right? So what can you apply to fix at least some of the things that existed before, right? It's, it's— and even for what I find interesting is companies that are bringing people back on. What a perfect opportunity to say, I'm only going to, I'm going to look for the type of people that fit what I believe our organization has to stand for.

But you know what, Howard? The reverse is happening. And that's— I know, Warren Talbot, companies are not saying that, but people are saying this. People are saying, company doesn't represent my values. I've seen evidence of this now, so why should I go back to work for them? Right.

But that's fine. I think, by the way, I think that's great. That's the ultimate accountability, right? If, if I— I think you have, you know, and by the way, you got to take money out of the equation because Because sometimes what people then do is say, well, but I'll have to take a pay cut. Yeah, but you'll sleep better at night. And people know good organizations and good people want to work for those organizations. I wish there was a— it's because a Coney Island hot dog in Texas. There's a chain in Texas of Coney Island hot dogs. And I would stop in when I was doing a lot of work down in Houston. And I would stop there once in a while. The staff there was phenomenal. Minimum wage, you can't even argue, right? Total minimum wage. And one time I sat down with them, they said it's fun working here and they really appreciate our initiative and what we do. And I'm sitting there, I'm thinking, these are people that say they, you know, around that say they can't hire minimum wage people. These are, by the way, they don't leave.

Yeah.

So I think we all, one thing we can learn coming out of the pandemic is How do we treat people in a way that gets them to be committed to us rather than they have to stay? In other words, how do you earn commitment, earn loyalty?

Yeah, feel valued.

Yeah, feel valued. And that's the number one one, right?

You know, it's interesting because last Friday, my husband and I were invited to a retirement party. party at Costco.

Neat.

This is sad because this tells you how much I, you know, I'm in Costco. I—

well, I'm impressed.

In the audience knows that Costco is probably my middle name, right?

That's okay.

If not my first, right? Um, and we sat down with the manager who's retired, who had been there 30, over 30 years. And I said to him, and it was part 1 of a 2-part retirement party. Part 1 was ice cream. This Friday is barbecue.

Yep.

And I said to him, so, Jet, you know, I'm in the executive coaching training business. I didn't know that. I said, so I want to ask you, you have brought on about 60, 75 people, new people in this store. He said, CB, how do you know that? And I said, listen, I count them. I have to tell you, when I left my Costco store in New Jersey, they gave me a present because they were gonna miss me. I said, oh, I watch everything because it means to me as a customer, there are 60 new people I need to train so that they treat me in the Costco fashion that I'm used to.

Right.

Right? So he started laughing. And by the way, audience, I think I'm going to get a phone call. You know the story, right? We just ignore it because it comes through on my computer. I said, how do you— how do you train, or what is it that you're going to do so that the new people that come on really represent the Costco tradition of customer Yep. He said, first of all, CB, only 50% will stay.

Right.

I said, really? I said, I don't see people leaving Costco other than to go to another Costco in another state. He goes, yeah, but those are the people— that's the 50% that remain. Um, he said I said, well, why do they leave? And he said, it's hard work. Working at Costco is not a joke. I said, how so? Now, I mean, I know from my perspective as a customer.

Yep.

He said, because the customer is right. And people are not used to that. That's number one. Customer service is a price value here. That's, that's hard work. I said, well, I'll tell you something. I know exactly what you're talking about. Because the other day, I had 2 items, both by the same manufacturer. And I read the sign that they were both the same price. And I got to the register and one rang up double the price. And I said to the guy who was at automatic checkout, I don't understand why this is happening. And he simply said to me, well, it's 2 different items. Now, in a normal store, that would be fine. But not in Costco. I wasn't accepting that in Costco.

Right.

So Jet happened to walk by. I said, Jet, these are both manufactured by the same thing. The sign gave the price. Why, why is one ringing up double when it's less items in it? And he said, CB, let's go back and take a look. That's my Costco.

That's right.

We went back and we figured it out. And I had read the sign wrong. There were 2 different items for that same manufacturer. And he said to me, so CB, I would advise you to take the one where you get more items for less I said, I looked at him and I smiled and he said, why are you smiling? And I said, that's my Costco.

Now, CB, just service, just so you don't get all the credit here. Yes, my Costco, Diane, when I walk through the door, runs over with a glass of soda for me.

No, what?

See, but now what's interesting is what's inter— Look, we can apply both of our learning to this real easy. Why do people do that? Because they're being treated with respect and dignity.

That's right.

Nothing to do with how— look, I don't go to Costco all the time. I probably not as much as you, but I do go a fair amount. But the difference is, and it's kind of fascinating, when you stop and say hello to people at a minimum.

Yes.

All of a sudden now, so, you know, it's, it's back to your question about even my government. I know their grandchildren's name. I say hello if I run into them. It's that we always look— it's back to your comment earlier. We look at the big things like how do we change these big things? First thing, and I learned this from a guy in a plant when I was really young and I was responsible for plants in my corporate life as in built or manufacturing plants. He took me around and he knew every Wow. So guess what? So you could watch people beam up when he stopped and said hello versus the person you and I run into in a corporation where they're falling behind. They go, George, Mary. Here's their name. So, you know, I think we sometimes lose in leadership. I think, you know, we really lose the concept of, you know, Treat people well. And that doesn't involve money. I mean, I always say to people, look, if you don't ever think that you buy— you can buy happiness, you can't buy satisfaction.

Right?

They want to say, so give somebody a day off. They're going to be happy. They're still going to hate the company and you, but they're going to be happy. So, but what do you do to make people fulfilled in their job? And when you can't just say, look, unfortunately, we can't do that for you. Be honest. Look at— there was a— if you've got time for a quick story, there's— I was in my telephone company days. I took over an area of recruiting for salespeople. Now, you'd have to understand salespeople were the highest-paid unionized job. So, I arrived on the scene. And the first thing I found out is there were 38 grievances, as in they had filed a grievance with the union. They didn't get the job. I sat down with every one of those 38 and I said, look, what's up? And they said, you know, it's the highest paid job in the company, a union job in the company. And I talked and said, do you really think you'd be good? No, but what the company has done, they said, you don't have enough training. You have to get sales training. They went and took a year's worth of sales training at night school. Came back and they said, "Oh, you still don't have this." And I said, "I'll tell you. I'll make you a deal. We'll find you something, and I'll be honest with you. But you have to be honest back. Do you really want this job?" Person said, and all fundamentally thirty-seven, thirty-eight said, "No, I wouldn't be good at this." I said, "Yeah. So now let's find you something." So we have to be careful. Company, you know, in companies we sometimes play the power card so that we get. what we create, rather than what we want.

I think that's true, not only in company. I want to go back and finish my story about Costco.

Oh, please.

Because I forgot. One of the things he said to me is, we, when we get an employee that wants to stay, we treat them incredibly well. And I said, how is that? He said, for We don't say you have a 401. We have classes about why it's important to your future. That's caring. So agreeing with what you're saying, you've got to go beyond the paycheck.

Right.

He said, I know every employee here by name, and I know about their families. Right. To your point.

Yep.

Yep. Right. So my question is, if it's that simple, because it really is, why doesn't every leader do that? And I've heard the excuse, like, you know, the head of Ford can't do that. We know that's not true from Alan Mulally.

Alan, that's right. Doesn't apply to Alan.

The standard excuse is, the company's too big. I can't do that. I leave it to my managers who leave it to their managers. And it just filters down. Why can't leaders care?

Well, first of all, I don't think— I agree with you. I don't think it's a can't. I think it's a won't. And I take it— let's take something that doesn't— let's take feedback. We always hear people, I'd like to give people more feedback. I just don't have the time. I have mastered the art of 20-second feedback because that's all it takes. If I'm doing it all the time, the problem is when you're sitting down with somebody once a year, yeah, it takes a lot of time. But part of it, in fairness to the person, is you haven't given any feedback all year. So for me, I give feedback all the time. I take strength— here's the ultimate test of what your question is. I'll go to a company of which I know nobody in the room. Well, maybe one person, whoever brought me in. And I will listen. It'll be a meeting. And at the end of the meeting, I'll say, Mary, can, can I just see you for a sec? And I'll say, Mary, I have something that I think would really help you be more effective. Are you interested in hearing it?

What a great way of saying that.

99 times out of 100, Mary goes, Sure, reluctantly, right? Sort of going, what are you going to say? And we talk about it and she goes, I really feel it. Thank you very much for doing that. But here's another one. I had this gentleman who unfortunately had a body odor problem and a breath problem. Everybody knew it. Nobody would tell him.

I sat down with him.

He said, I gotta tell you, I'm shocked. But I'm more shocked people have never told me. Because I'm hearing this like it's common knowledge, right? And he went, he got it fixed, and he was phenomenally thankful. So I think sometimes—

I want to know— I'm sorry, Howard, I keep interrupting you.

I hop around.

How you started that conversation, because that's one of the most difficult ones.

The one with breath and body odor? Yes.

Same way.

I said, you know, his name was Bill. I said, Bill, I have Something that I think would really help you be more effective. Would you like to hear it? And he said, sure. And I said, this is really difficult for me. Understand it's an awkward conversation and it's given with love. You have a problem that I'm sure you don't know about, which is you have really bad body odor. And your teeth, you know, and it includes sort of dental hygiene. And I said, I'm not trying to offend you, I'm trying to help you. And he said, well, is this— is this happen a lot? And I said, well, it does. And he said, I just can't believe somebody hasn't told me. So, you know, I think sometimes what we do is we waste too much time assuming the other person's answer. So, what we do is we don't raise it. We assume that someone told them. We assume that, you know, and if you think about how often in a personal and a work relationship, things go bad because we build up that pressure. Think of marriage, right? You build up the pressure and you don't say something. And all of a sudden, it explodes and explodes at a time where the poor other person can't figure it out. It's like—

Yeah.

All I did is ask you if we have any apples and you blew up, right? It's because that just was the moment where it blew. Instead of, you know, if we're gonna treat each other well— and again, if the person said no to me, or, or if the person said, well, I think you're wrong, because sometimes that happens, well, the person will go, well, I think you're wrong. I said, okay, that's, that's okay. And Just my opinion. And they always come back within a week and said, I've thought about it. And you know what? You're right. What ideas do you have? And I'm going to try to help them. It's the people that don't ask CB that we've got the problem with, right? Because they're sort of the undercover abusers, right? If you think— it's what's so good about the program you and Laina have developed. If you're focused forward, you can fix it. If you're focused on looking at what was wrong, you can never get— I call it the old baggage problem. You and I have both worked with teams, and you go to a person on the team and say, okay, what do you need to do to change your thought about Bill? Go to Bill. What do you need to do? And then one changes a bit, gets totally beat up over it, and all of a sudden now they're mad at each other all over again. There has to be kind of a okay we, and that's really back to your question: the pandemic. What we should be saying is, even if I'm a leader, okay, we're starting over. Let's figure out we all had our beefs. We all had our fights. From now on. We're holding each other accountable. Let's figure out what we're holding each other accountable for and leave the past behind.

So Howard, I want to ask you about your company in relationship to this, because I think as I'm listening to you, I remember, you know, the difference in— I used to travel a lot, and the difference between communication with people from foreign countries versus this country. And somehow when you're giving— I've narrowed it down to, in my opinion, the critique. When you're giving the critique here, you may not take the time to be kind.

Great.

In Europe, there seems to be an art form. Yep. Which I had to learn.

Yep, you're right.

And slip back into the American form.

Yep.

I'm guilty. Um, with the research that you do, I'm sure that you come up to Finding information out that has been harming the success of an organization.

Yeah.

How do you, as a researcher, combine this human aspect that we're talking about of kindness and figuring out how to share with people how they might improve with the research that you find out, how do you communicate that to a leader? In essence is, how do you tell a leader you screwed up in a way that is comfortable enough for them to accept and create change?

Well, I'll give you 2 answers because I think one is, You can take the German approach, right? Insult them to death and then buy them a drink. You know, my role, my barometer has always been Japan, right? Especially somebody coming from outside Japan, but also feedback. And what I've found is I generally, when I go to a country, if it's me, first thing I do is say, look, because I think the structure doesn't change. I think how it's delivered changes. Yes. If we are in Asia, we're going to give a positive before we talk about, you know, here's why, what you— and then you're going to say, here's a suggestion. I think we sometimes forget we all have to save face, right? Nobody wants to be told they're rotten all the time. But on the other hand, we don't— depending on what country we're in, we don't tell people they're doing a good job either. So, it's a bit of a double Hemi. So, you know, I think it's— I think people are highly talented. I think they're smarter than we give them credit for. And I think if you just ask 5 or 10 of them, you'll have your answer. So, when we do it, I think what we try to do is say, here's the structure of what— here's what we need to accomplish. What's the vehicle that will have the most retention for people? And what will create the most The most easiest way for them to hear it and accept it.

So, Howard— and by the way, Elena says that you do this with grace.

How kind.

Howard, tell us about the work of your company. Let's get granular on this. Sure.

You know, I think there's probably a couple elements. First of all, the company's been around for 25, almost 30 years. What we do is build credible leaders and credible organizations. So, the focus is on how to— I believe much like on an individual level, I believe companies have unique culture. And I think sometimes what we try to do is say, this was successful here, so it'll be— I don't believe in that. I think you have to take and say, what are your goals? What are your objectives? How do we build an organization that will allow us to do that while at the same time taking care of the welfare and respect of our people? So that's what we do is help them do that. So we, and part of what we do is, again, it's, it's because the data is so overwhelming from our point of view is really say, OK, you've got to focus on a commitment to being better. So how do you look at every element of the organization and say, how can we better? Now, there's a beginning piece. I would argue there's an ongoing piece. Right? So, so you, there's nothing wrong with having a plan. But you should review your plan once in a while to see if it's doing what you want it to accomplish. If not, tweak it. If commitment to self-improvement is the highest predictor, implied in that is something that's countercultural. especially for North America, some other countries too. Most of us are taught to excel and to never admit fault. In other words, we are at the top of an organization because we are the best we can be. No, you're not. You got up there from luck. You got a hold maybe. And by the way, you could have abused people that caused you to be president of the company, right? You just got the highest profit. A few minutes ago, you talked about rightfully so companies saying, yeah, but we've got to get making money. And I'm going, yeah, but since 2008, most companies have pocketed a lot of bucks because they've, they've, they never brought a lot of the people back, etc. But what they did is kept the money and they had great earnings. Now's the time to say maybe this is a reinvestment time, looking for the next 10 years. So what we do is work with organizations, say, how do you start that journey? Everything we do is customized. So it's not like somebody comes and buys a program. I'm not sure there is an answer, in all honesty. Uh, for a lot of this, I think it's about how do you find a way for you as a company to figure out where you start, what's— how do you get the right people engaged. And let me, let me give you, CB, a perfect example what I'm talking about. I learned this, this was funny, I learned this a long time ago. There are plenty of companies that will, when they have shortages like we're having now in manpower, what they do is they offer employees a referral bonus, right? Somebody comes in— I don't— here's— this is gonna be radical. Take that, throw that out. Tell me who— and the number, the number's a bit— you have to come up with a number, the size of the organization. Give me your 10 best people. The people, not the favorites, but the people that probably best fit your organization and best behave in a way that's What you want your organization to be, right? Start there. And then say, we're going to give you 5 times as much money as I was going to pay each person to go find me those people. Because if you want great people, you get— you take your current great people and let them find them and make money from it. Otherwise, what happens is if I'm your worst performer and you're giving me money to go find people, there's something wrong with that, right?

Of course.

So something simple like that.

Never thought about it. So yeah, starting at the beginning, would you call your company a research company or a consulting company or both?

I think we're— no, we're definitely both. Um, we are— I'd refer to us as we're anchored in research, but we are a practicing consulting company, have, you know, and have tend to have very large clients. Um, that deal with, depending what their challenges are, everything from how to grow and build their, their, their women in the organization, because they know they need to start doing that, to how do we make, how do we make the people in the organization align with what we want to be 10 years from now. So we generally have a Some form of a goal that they set as a priority. And obviously, we have to buy into it because we don't buy into it, we don't want to take the work. But assuming we buy into it, it's then helping people evolve towards that.

And how do companies find you? I mean, there are a lot of consulting firms out there, but you clearly are standout. How did that happen?

It's word of mouth. You know, it's funny, as long as we've been around, I'd say we probably, if you said to me, what's the one thing as a company we're not good at? Self-promotion. We're actually lousy. So, it really ends up that our clients or people that have been our clients say, look, let's— because again, you know, CB, how it works with all of us, right? Is people will want to talk to you and I call it pigeonhole where you fit.

Yeah.

If I can figure out by one of the 8 descriptions where you fit, I now say, oh, you're a training company, click. So with us, it's hard to do that. So in some ways, we intimidate people. That's okay.

So, so Jeff, would you say that most companies come to you to solve a problem or to create a stronger future?

Isn't that the same?

Not necessarily.

It's awareness, right? It's awareness.

Yeah, because we think if you take it back to coaching, is it leadership development or a behavior issue? So when people come to you, companies come to you, is it more of a behavior issue? Or is it a skills development issue? Opportunity?

Yeah, I would say, I would say, first of all, it's, it's an It's an opportunity, is it? Because again, as you can tell by what I'm saying, I'm not a great believer of the past. I think we can't change that. I think no matter what type of issue we're talking about, I gotta let go of the past if I'm gonna embrace and, and grow in the future. I think that's part of our problem on a lot of things we have now. Uh, we hang on to things, especially in North America. We hang on— like, let it go.

Yeah.

For, you know, forgive past sins. Um, because if I can focus on the future, there's one important element that not focusing on the past gives you. By focusing on the future, I can now hold people accountable.

Ah.

If I let them bring in— I mean, how many times have we all heard, you know, I would, but we tried that once? Maybe we should try it twice. It's right. It's— we have to, we have to get ourselves into a situation where we hold ourselves accountable for constantly improving, moving. And again, I think every person— I don't care if every person moves an inch or a mile, as long as we're going in the right direction.

So Elena says we can do a better job at giving Tough feedback when we consistently give positive feedback. Oh yeah, yeah, definitely. She's a chip off of our block. Yeah.

And, and by the way, we all know it's 8 or 9, but it's also how you give feedback. Elaine is right, right? I, I can give you— I can give your audience a 3-step foolproof way to give feedback.

Wait, let me get a new pen.

Okay, guaranteed. This is— I offer a money-back— try to catch me— money-back guarantee.

Okay.

Well, it's actually 4 steps. The first thing I've given you already, ask permission first. I've got some— I'd like to give you some feedback. And don't qualify whether it's positive or developmental. And the reason you ask is, you know, sometimes I'm having a day where the last thing I want is any feedback. I'm not going to hear it. I'm having a bad day for whatever reason. The second thing is to tell the person what you saw or heard that's either positive or could have been done better. No judgment. You know, CB, what I saw you do is I saw you ask a person that you knew hadn't been paying attention, And for the answer to a question. So, that's step 2. Step 3 is, what happened as a result? What I saw them do is start to tune you out because they were mad because you embarrassed them. And step 4 is, any suggestion you'd have? Which could include, back to Elena's point, how can we take what what you did and help other people understand it so they could maybe use it, right? Or if it's, or if it's something you say, what do you think, what would you do differently? Now, the reason the model works in my, from my point of view, I've done a lot of experience with it, um, because most of us, most of us hate giving feedback, right? This way people actually, I have people come and ask me for feedback now. Like literally, they'll come and say, do you have any feedback for my presentation? Because it's not threatening. I'll say, yeah, here, I saw you do this. Here's what happened. You might have tried that. Oh, good. It's— there's 2 things about feedback we don't talk about, that at least from my memory. One is we make it judgmental. So we say, you tackled the person on that and that really embarrassed them. Well, that's a different thing than Here's what you said, and that made it awkward for them. It's subtle difference, but it's, it's, or you, you did this and it's not a very good attitude. Well, the minute you pick and put a judgment on that feedback, I'm going to react to it. The second thing is it's very quick. Remember I said 20 seconds? Think about that. You could do that model in 20 seconds and have time for coffee. Because part of it is you have to believe in the good intentions of people. Even look, I'll give you a— I've actually had people that I make it my personal mission that I'm going to— so say, here's a simple one. Just keep it— This one is, I have for 2 years gone by the same person at least 5 times a week. And they look like grumpy boots, right? I sit there and I said good morning. They said good morning to me last month and have ever since. So guess what? Want changing things? One person at a time, right? I have caused them to see the benefit of maybe not being grumpy.

Okay, I've got 2 questions for you. You've got 6 minutes. No, I don't get it.

Answer fast. Answer fast.

These are important. One, letting go. This is a tough human behavior. What advice do you have to help people in letting go?

Well, I think the first thing is to recognize people can be equally or better than you at something. You're not the expert on everything. I think as a leader, many times letting go is the problem. The difficulty is I got news for you. You're not the only person that can do the job. So, I think if you're having trouble letting go, the first suggestion I give somebody is, so get somebody else up to speed. Learn how to— whether it's your child, an employee, it doesn't matter. And I think that's my first point. My second point on letting go would be if you have a to-do list and this item shows up 10 times, throw it out and don't do it.

What?

I always find people go, I have trouble with time management. I have no trouble with time management. Ask Alaina. She would tell you. I'm good at time management. Why? First of all, I figure out what's important. And if I have something that I keep putting off, It can't be that important. And it's, it's amazing how we become captive to our to-do list rather than us running our to-do list, right?

Oh my God, that's such a good one because so many things flooded in front of my face. One of them was doing taxes, right? I have an accountant, I got it done.

But see, that's a perfect example, CB. You know, let's take your taxes as an example. You don't like doing them. What the heck are you doing them for? There are people who get paid that love doing taxes. And you know, in my corporate life, it took me a long time to learn I hate detail. Hate detail. I can come up with something, strategy, but I don't want to have to document it. I discovered there were people that love documenting things.

Yeah.

So I let go, right? I said, and by the way, I'm even willing to settle for 95% of what I wanted in the interest of me not frustrating myself.

I love it. But, but on a more serious note, in terms of letting go, how do you advise— well, a lot of times we can't let something go because it's an emotional sting.

Yep.

How do— and, you know, leaders at the top of the organization, sometimes we think of them as not having emotions, right? Their emotions can be tied to their ego.

Yeah.

Or not. How do they let go in order to move forward?

Well, I think you answered your own question. If I don't let go, I'm not moving forward. It's impossible. You're captive to the thing that stings. And I think when you have something that stings, you do one of two things. You embrace it and say, okay, I'm going to gradually learn how to fix that. Or you say, that's a piece of feedback that I don't agree with and throw it out. We make the mistake that somehow every— I get feedback from people that I go, well, that's really nice. And by the way, I thank them. I appreciate they gave it to me and I don't care. Right? Because it's not something— they're probably right, but it's not something that's important to me right now.

Okay.

And there's only so much I can carry in my head. So, letting go of something, I think, becomes— now, I think what's— in letting go, the other thing you have to make sure is what impact is it having on you at home and at work? That's way worse than what the feedback is. So in other words, you're going home kicking the dog, fighting with your spouse. You know, it's hurting you, not them.

I love it. I'm writing it down.

So again, I think we have to really, you know, in some ways, It's this whole subject for another conversation. But a lot of what we're finding in today with a lot of the challenges we're having, at some point, I'm not saying forget, but at some point to move forward, we have to be willing to let part of it go. Not all of it, but part of it go. Because without that, we— which it's like this, we're not moving.

Okay, my last question is, and I know we're going to run over, and this is probably going to be a bigger— I know it's going to be a bigger conversation. It occurs to me that white people accept feedback better than Black people or people of color. Now, My philosophy to that, the reason for that, is that in our culture, feedback was normally punitive.

Right.

Criticism, it wasn't feedback.

Yep.

In today's business world, how can we as a culture let go of that? And, and this is where I was getting to letting go and embrace the positive outcomes that feedback can bring us. This is a hard question because now you're talking about a culture.

Mm-hmm.

You're not talking about a one-time event. You're talking about years and years and years of Getting criticized versus giving— getting feedback?

Yep, yep. You know, it's a great question. I mean, I think I would answer it this way. Um, and first of all, I always say I can't understand what sort of has created that challenge in, in Black people, right?

I can't.

I can only try to really appreciate it and say, what can I do to help reverse it?

Right.

So for me, my answer is, if I'm— I can tell you what I try to do, and it's not enough, is I try to recognize it's my obligation to build trust with that person that's probably been betrayed, rightfully so, over a number of years. So And it sometimes takes time. And what I've got to do is not hold that person to the same schedule as a white person. So I think when it's seen as— and it always comes back to—

Is that fair though?

No!

Okay. No.

What's fair about race relations? Right? But what I'm saying is, We have to start, we have to start putting a good foot forward and helping them see and trust, right? It always comes back to trust. If I can have somebody that trusts me because they truly buy into what I'm trying to do, that's the first thing that's going to happen before anything happens. And it's recognized it may does take longer. But, but again, it's not fair that we put those people in that situation either. So I think it— so a lot of time what I'll do is if I'm talking to somebody that's Black in that situation, I'll say, look, let's figure out what it's going to take for, for you to trust me and for me to try to help you. I'm a great believer of just put it on the table, right?

Mm-hmm.

And because sometimes what happens is it can become a bit of a crutch. And what I mean by that is it can be something that holds me back because I can't let go of it. Back to your question of letting go. I'm going to help the person let go of it.

Hmm.

And I think most people, if again, I believe if you treat people like a human being, you can help that happen in most cases, not all. But the burden's on me. See, I think that's the difference. As a white male, that's my burden. It's not their burden to say, well, let me work hard. No, no, no, no, no. It's how do I get it back to a common foundation as quick as I can?

I love it. I love it.

And to do that, I gotta look inside myself, right? I mean, I, I always chuckle at people that go, I don't see color. And I go, you lying SOBs. Okay, I see color. It's what I do about it that's the issue.

You are so good. I love it. Howard, I really hate to say goodbye on this this call because there's just so much richness in what you've delivered.

Oh, thank you. You're kind.

In just a really short period of time. You know, I often say, will you come back? In this case, when are you coming back?

We'll come up with some new things for people to— yeah, I mean, again, I think we will definitely do that. Again, I think we have to do our best to give good counsel advice to people that are, are there and they want to learn and they want to grow and to uncomplicate it. So our format of us chatting for an hour is wonderful for doing that.

Yes, I love it. And you know, here's the thing, um, I feel that we tend to set such high standards for change that we forget the granular part. So, and I'll give you a really good example to translate what I'm saying, is, uh, I do Clubhouse on Saturday morning, and this past week it was how to change a conversation to a sale.

Mm-hmm.

And it was very sort of, um, What's the word that I want? It wasn't— the answers were not things that I could go out and do. Right. And so I wanted a step. I wanted a formula.

Right, right.

You know, now, I could change the formula as I became really efficient in that formula, but give me something. And so what my wish for this show is that we give formulas. Now, that doesn't mean it's— you have to stick to it step by step. It means you have a foundation for which to change.

No, CBU, I think it's— and you gotta have some fun.

Yeah, absolutely.

But no, I think another way of putting what you're saying, 'cause I agree with you, is If we're not careful, we as people who have been blessed to be experts in the field can try to prove how smart we are to people rather than help them learn from us.

Yes. Thank you. Yeah.

It's, it's how do we put— and again, it's a journey because I think that's the other thing. You know how it's always humorous, right? When you, when it's real clear for you and we have this knowledge, it's real easy to all of a sudden throw something and go, well, do that. And you're going, it's like delegation. I always chuckle. People have delegation problems. Well, the reason that You delegate and people don't do it is you did a crappy job explaining exactly what you wanted. It's not that they— it's not that they don't want delegation, they don't have a clue what you told them.

I love where this show went. And Art—

that's fantastic.

Not sure how you pronounce his last name— said thank you, uh, CB and Howard, could go longer. You know what?

Thank you.

We'll come back. We'll create it.

You'll always get our truth, right? Always get our truth.

This absolutely— this has been Howard Morgan. And if your company looking for support for the future and change, this is the man to contact. And if you're not sure how to reach him, reach out to me and I will That's right. Because you know how to reach me, right?

And if you have a question, send it through CB and we'll get an answer for you.

Absolutely. His company, Leadership Research Institute. Howard, thanks. Make it part of your day. That's my secret for today.

Keep smiling.

And keep smiling. Thank you.

We'll see you next week. That's a deal.

Bye.

Bye now.