CB Bowman LIVE! Specia Episode: Guest Doug Sandler

Hi everyone, this is CB Bowman Live and this is a special edition. I know you were not expecting to see me on Friday and you thought, hallelujah, I've gotten rid of her for Friday. But surprise, I have a special guest for you. I have the king, the absolute king of podcasting. And not just podcasting, but how to make money podcasting. And he's going to talk to us, he's going to give us a little snippet of what he's going to speak about in a pre-conference for the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches, as well as he is a main speaker for a big conference. So let me just give you the dates. So the pre-conference is March 11th at 9 o'clock, and follow me to find out more. And then the conference takes place on the following dates, and you want to pay attention to this because there are early bird specials. Now you can't register now, but if you follow me or send me an email, I'll put you on the list so that you can get a good price. Okay, so it's May 6th, May 20th, June 3rd, and June 17th. And for you coaches out there, oh, you don't want to miss this because this is a conference of the first kind. What we're going to talk about is how to understand The internal mind of your buyer. That's the leaders and what makes them trigger to buy. Don't you want to know about that? I bet you do. So be sure to follow CB Bowman for the latest news on how to get in at that early price. Okay, so now let's get to the business at hand. Let's talk to Doug Sandler, and it's a podcastologist. I love this new term.

We had to make up our own word. You know, even bartenders have mixologists, so we figured podcastologist, that would be kind of fun.

Love it. I love it. Talk to us. Tell us secrets. Tell us everything.

Oh my gosh.

Tell us about your company first.

Well, I appreciate that. Thank you, CB, and thank you for having me here on not only LinkedIn Live but on YouTube and Facebook as well. We, we love this online space and And that probably is a great place to start. Going back probably maybe 7 or 8 years ago when I started to make the move from doing live events, live speaking events to the online space, I just had no way to promote myself. You know, I heard about online marketing and all of that, and that stuff was a challenge. And, you know, for me, I didn't want to really have to learn all of these new things at the same time, like how to market to— on the virtual space and how to do all of this other stuff that I had no idea how to do. So I did what I thought I should do. I took my business, which was a professional speaking business, I wrote a book, and I needed a way to promote my book, and I used podcasting as a way to do that. And what I discovered quickly was it wasn't my speaking business that people wanted to hear more about. They wanted to hear about how to get into this podcasting world. And so I realized that I had to serve potentially a different market with that particular message. And then we've kind of worked—

What What was your book about?

So my book is called Nice Guys Finish First, and it was all about building a business not through, you know, cutthroat methods and being, you know, ruling with an iron fist. It was really about how to build a business through building relationships. And I know a lot of coaches that are out there, you know, most of your clients are with you. There's millions of coaches that are out there, tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of coaches that are out there, but most people are not getting it necessarily because of their skill set. They're getting it because of the relationship that they have with the people that are on their prospective list. So, for me, that book was an essential component in the start of what this new online business was all about. So, how do you be nice or how do you create an environment where you're sharing a methodology to grow your business through being nice, returning phone calls, telling the truth, not again ruling your company or ruling your clients with an iron fist, but actually doing it through building relationships. So better business, better relationships. That's really the key to that book.

I know, I know, Doug, we're here. I'm sorry to cut you off, but I'm so interested. I know that we're here to talk about podcasting, but can we just take a little bit of time to talk about building your business through relationships? Because, you know, to me, that seems like I'm an introvert. Mm-hmm. So I'm in trouble already. And so Building relationships sounds daunting to me. I mean, and then asking them for business. Okay, give us the secrets on this.

Well, if you think about it, you know, when you build a relationship with someone, it's not really about what you know, it's how you present yourself to your potential client. I'll assume that the people that are listening to you and following you and in your ecosystem, CB, I will assume that every one of them, if not all of them, They're great coaches. So the differentiating factor between being a great coach and a great coach that actually has business is probably the relationship that they're building with their customers. And the relationship isn't just how they deliver their products or services. It's all the way from the moment that that potential customer comes in contact with your coach's brand till the time when they've gone through your products and services and now you are supporting them through the process. It's all about—

Yeah.

meeting or exceeding expectations. It's about telling them the truth. It's about showing up on time, every time. It's about doing the right thing, even if the right thing isn't the thing that, that profits you the most. So all of those things are essential components in building a great relationship with customers. I will have to assume that everybody that is within your system does a great job at being a coach. Now it's what do they do beyond that, that really helps. And the relationship is all of that.

Yeah, I mean, well, fortunately, the, the people in my circle are all successful coaches, but, but I love to help new coaches coming on board. And the number one question that I get is, how do you build business? And I know that when I was coaching, um, as a young kid, um, it was just so hard picking up the phone and saying, Hi, how are you doing? Just wanted to check in with you and, you know, see what you're up to, see how I could support you. Oh my God, it was torture. And so I understand what the young folks are going through. One of the things I say to them, you know, you can't necessarily start that way, but what you can do is build up credibility for yourself.

Absolutely.

And you have a platform to chat about.

Absolutely. I think it's essential for you to deliver value first and give before you receive. I think that if people see that genuinely you're interested in, in providing support for whatever it is that they're doing, I think oftentimes that will come back to help you. And if your attitude is, I'll go first, how do I go first, what can I do, how can I deliver value, people will hop on board with you. And it's not like The world, if you overdeliver with your promises and you exceed expectations in the spot where you're not getting compensated to do it, people will recognize that. Catch people in the act of doing something right. Show them what you know and deliver your services even before you get to the buying part. Deliver your pre— before they become a client. Overdeliver in that, you know, overdeliver with— if you say to somebody, I'm going to get back to you in 10 minutes, and you wait 30 minutes to get back to them, you've already failed to meet expectations. If you say to somebody, I'm going to get back to you in 30 minutes, and you get back to them in 10 minutes, now you've exceeded expectation. And I know that that's just a little thing, but it's those little things that cumulatively have a big effect on building your relationship with your potential client.

Exactly, and it's not to say that You can't be late in reaching out to somebody, but you better have strong credibility before that happens so that people say, hey, it's okay, I get it. I know what your schedule is like. I'm just happy that you were able to get back to me. That works, but you need to be a Marshall Goldsmith to pull that one off, right?

Well, I 100% agree, but even at the Marshall Goldsmith stage, I think when you get to that stage or even a stage that's nowhere near where where he is with his, you know, with his business. But you just get to the point where you are, you have a great reputation because you've done those things to exceed expectations every time. And yeah, people will be understanding if you're late or if you don't deliver exactly the way, but you want to be beyond reproach. You always want to be beyond reproach because your reputation preceded you in your exceeding the expectations. And That's what I love. If you, if you can do that most of the time, your, your clients and your potential clients will realize that, that this was a blip on the radar rather than you— this was the, you know, this was the, the path that you always go down of being late or not being on time or not delivering what you say you're going to deliver.

And, you know, Zoom makes it a lot easier for us to be on time. You know, we don't have to deal with traffic. Well, we do have to deal with electronics like We were supposed to have a show. I'm supposed to have a show on Tuesday. And I was so excited because we had Elisa Cohn who was speaking and she's a guru in the entrepreneurial space as a coach. And LinkedIn went down for several hours and I was like, no, I've waited months to get her on my show. And then Thursday I had, uh, in the CB Live, version of workplace equality and equity. I had Saadja Quinn on, who is responsible for global D&I at Bank of America. She was brilliant. And we had blips from LinkedIn. I thought, technology? Okay, I must be under a tech cloud. But then I had to feel better because everyone else was under the same cloud. You know, there was no more room.

Well, I think according to my girlfriend last week, Mercury was in retrograde. So technology Technology was always going kablooey last week.

It was. And this week.

Maybe so. Exactly.

So now, gee, I think I need to run out and get your book because there's some good tips in there for introverts. And I want to just now, because I know we don't have a lot of time, but I want to talk about podcasting.

Sure. So podcasting is a great way to get out your message in a virtual world. Obviously, you know, with what's been going on with the world over the last 12 months or so. Um, it has been a— it's a, it's a, a channel of communication that is second to none. Everybody understands what— or many people understand what podcasting is all about. Um, it is a way to get your message out. It's a way to build community. It's a way to grow your influence. And fortunately, you know, it's also a way to connect you with money. It is a— it's a monetization tool. It's a business development tool, a lead gen tool that if used effectively, it could be the central hub of your entire marketing So for those that are new, and we always want to respect those that are new, what is a podcast? Podcast is simply an on-demand audio of a message that you want to share. It's kind of like the Netflix of, of audio messaging, and you can use it in a, in a business environment to share your message with your market.

So let's go back a step further. What is an on-demand? What do you mean by that?

So if somebody wants to hear my message, uh, and it's a message that I've recorded, pre-recorded, then they can listen to my message at any time that they want to. Um, you have access to Apple Podcasts or Stitcher or Overcast. Those are the distribution sources for podcasting. So if somebody wants to hear a message about, um, how to sell better in, you know, coaching for non-sales, or, you know, how to sell your coaching business. Well, they can go to Apple Podcasts and they can type in sales coaching or coaching sales, and a whole bunch of different podcasts that have that subject matter will come up in the search results. They can listen to any number of different podcast episodes that have that subject. So on-demand means that anybody can go to Apple Podcasts or Stitcher or Google or any number of different players, and they could just type in a subject matter and that podcast episode or something with that subject will come up. So on demand, meaning it's ready when I want it to be. It's not a live session.

Okay, so it sounds a lot like radio.

It's radio except it's not live and it's not broadcast. So it's not a— with radio, you tune into a specific frequency on your radio and you get a message that's being shared by a disc jockey and/or talk radio or whoever is out there. With this, it's actually a narrowcast. If I want a specific message about executive coaching, I can actually go to Apple Podcasts and type in executive coaching. And I may run into a show that only has, instead of a broadcast audience of 10 million, they may only have 100 people that listen to that show on any regular basis. So the audience size is really irrelevant. It's about the message, the concentration of the message, the more narrow a message can be, the better the message will actually present to that person listening. Like, I have a show— you can't see it over my shoulder, but I have a picture of a 1965 Mustang right there. Okay, you see that?

Yes.

So I have a show because I have a 1965 Mustang. I have a show that's called Ford Mustang: The Early Years. We specifically talk about '64.5, '65, and '66 Mustangs. It's not a huge audience, but it's 750 to 1,000 people that listen every week to my show. Now, I know they are specifically interested in classic Ford Mustangs.

Whoa, whoa, wait a second. You don't consider that a large audience?

Well, a large— when you talk about large, it's all relative. If you say, is it a large audience compared to what WNBC gets when they have— when they broadcast a message to tens of millions of people every week? No, it's not a large audience, but it's a specific audience just that want to hear about that message.

Can I ask you, what in the world can you talk about every week that has to do with a car? I'm sorry.

Well, it's, it's interesting running the show. You know, it's like, it's like somebody would say, well, how can you talk about, you know, if you go to Apple Podcasts right now and you type in, um, funeral director podcast, there's probably a dozen podcasts that are specifically focused on funeral directors. Well, what do funeral directors have to talk about? What do Ford Mustang. We talk about tires, we talk about cars, we talk about the clubs, we talk about events that are going on, we talk about, you know, the spouses of the people that, you know, what we talk about it. We talk about the amount of money people put into restoring their classic Mustangs. We talk about everything on that show.

Wow. Wow. Who would have thought? And, you know—

Again, that's why it's called narrowcasting. It's not a broadcast. We're not looking to get a big audience. I mean, a big audience is great, but that's not That's not what my goal is for that show.

You know what? I've heard something and I've made a mistake on my podcast because I have one podcast that says CB Bowman Live, Challenges of the C-Suite. It is about things that leaders can do better, but it's also about coaches and how they've advised leaders to do better. And maybe I should have put executive coaching in that title.

It just depends on what the goal of your show is. So keep in mind, there's 3 goals for podcasting: build community, build influence, or make money. And depending on the goal of your show would dictate the strategy that you use in not only branding your show, but in the methodologies that you use to roll your show out. So maybe it is that, you know, we have a show that's called the BizWiz Podcast. The specific intent of that show was to monetize the show. So we were able to make $35,000 from that show before we even launched because we had a specific goal of what we wanted to accomplish with that podcast.

So you're saying that it's important to have a specific goal and it could be build community, build influence, or make money.

And it could be a combination of all 3 of those things. But what I tell my clients all the time is let's put our stake in the sand and let's pick which one is the— like if I were to say to you, CB, You have a choice. You can make money, grow your influence, or you can grow your community. Which one of those was the most— there's no right answer, but which one of them is the most important of those 3? Building money, building influence, growing your community, or making money?

Okay, so I'm gonna give you the CB answer.

Okay.

Because I believe if you build influence, you automatically build community, which allows you to make money.

They're all byproducts of each other. So you're 100% right. But the question is, which one would you like to lead with?

Hmm, I'm gonna say for me right now, influence.

Okay, great. So the best way to build influence in the podcasting space is to align yourself with other influencers. So in your executive coaching world, that would be the Marshall Goldsmiths, that would be the You know, the Jordan Goldriches, that would be the high-level executive coaches. I say that because you and I are both friends with Jordan, and I know he would laugh at that also.

Yes. I think he would say the reverse. I'm the influencer for him.

We love Jordan. We love Jordan.

I love him.

So the question is then, if you want to build influence, you align yourself with other influencers. And you become an influencer by proxy. Now that's different than building community or growing or making money because we're now going to focus on who to put in that guest seat and who to have in your audience based upon you wanting to be an influencer, not about you wanting to make money or make an offer or to build your community, which are 2 other strategies.

So by the way, we just got a note saying great discussion. You betcha, 'cause I'm learning too. Thank you. You didn't identify yourself, but I love it. Okay, so suppose now I wanted to move from influence to make money.

Okay.

All right. I love making money.

I completely understand. So there are probably, and again, my girlfriend and I, who is also a podcast strategist as well.

Let's give her a name. Come on, not just your girlfriend. JJ.

JJ, JJ Flazain. She's amazing. So we discovered through having a conversation that there are probably 20+ ways to make money podcasting. More than 20 ways, but let me just go over a handful of them just really quickly, just so you know. So the first thing that you can do is you can grow a community so that you can sell your community products and services, right? That sounds like that's easy. You know, you have a product or service, your community is listening to you. At some point, they're going to be interested because you've built that know, like, and trust factor with them, and you're going to sell them something. Another way that you could do it is out of the guest seat, meaning putting people on the show that could directly refer or buy the products and services that you have. So that's called a guest-to-client strategy. Another way that you could do it is through joint venture partnerships, whether it's through your audience or that guest seat, doing deals and building relationships and building businesses with those people that you've built the relationship with that are in that guest seat. Affiliate relationships, having a product or service that is closely aligned but not competing with you presented on your show so that when somebody in your audience buys that product or service, you make a small percentage of that. For example, an accountant that has an accounting show, he represents a product like FreshBooks or QuickBooks. Every time somebody in his audience clicks on that link, they get a small percentage of the money that's coming in the door. And the other way, the way that everybody always thinks about when it comes to monetizing podcasts, it's, I'm gonna sell advertising or sponsorship to my show. And while that is certainly a way that you can make money, it is not the early stage way to make money of the show because you have no audience. And if industry standards hold true, you're gonna make about $15 per 1,000 listeners. And 1,000 listeners— remember when I said you're not broadcasting, you're narrowcasting? It doesn't necessarily mean that you want a big audience. $15 a show to, to, to sell advertising is not going to make anybody rich. So I rely upon the other 19 methods that you can use to, to make money podcasting.

So what, uh, we're getting in more. I love making money. Let's hear these ways. Great advice. I've heard of affiliate links before when creating content. So yeah, my, my question to you now, and maybe you want to say, let's wait until the pre-conference to answer this, um, is in the coaching space, in the services space, what affiliates can we affiliate with?

Well, what, so think about it. What problems does a coach cause that an affiliate partner could solve? So could it be a coach, an executive coach might say, hey, we need to do something with relationship management. So they may have a good, a good affiliate relationship with a psychology practice. There might be, maybe the advice that an executive coach would, would give is something pertaining to the, the, their client's business. It might be a marketing thing. So maybe there's a marketing, a marketing business that they might be able to affiliate with. You'd have to answer that question. You could answer that question better than I could. What are the executive coaches' clients, what do they look for as a result of being coached from an executive coach? What problems are created in that relationship?

You know, Doug, you just did a better job than me. Because I love how you think. I just, I want to pickle your brain and be able to take it out and say, OK. You know, okay, I sound a little Frankenstein-ish.

That's okay.

I love the idea because it got me thinking. You're right, partnering with therapists of all kinds, one. 2, project management is something that when we take on a large-scale training program that has, you know, is really coaching but large-scale, gosh, you know, There are coaches as part of ACEC that are working with client— an entire hospital system.

Yeah, and take it a step further. What, what co— like executive coaches, they don't do all the finite coach— coaching practices. Also, an executive coach might be in a position to recommend a sales coach or a sales trainer. So to, to align yourself with a sales training organization to refer out and make a percentage of that Oh, I love it.

Sales training, project management, marketing, accounting.

And you know, the best part of the affiliate relationship, CB, is that there is no deliverable for the executive coach. So I refer— so you become a client of mine, I recommend something to you, you buy that something. I don't have to— I don't— not deliver. Now, I have a good relationship with that company that I'm referring, and I trust that company or I wouldn't be referring them. But I don't have to deliver anything. But at the same time, I have no deliverable. I'm just— all I'm doing is I'm collecting the check.

Yeah. Okay. So what are the best affiliate marketing apps out there?

Well, there's— there is a ton of affiliate marketing programs, and it would highly— it would depend highly on the services that that person is recommending. There are some that are in the online space where it's just as easy as Putting a link together and using something like— there's a company called ThriveCart. It's an affiliate tracker that's out there. But there's also, if you are recommending high-touch concierge service business, meaning that I'm recommending something to you, you go ahead and take advantage of that service, but that service is a concierge or white glove treatment service. It's just the relationship. So I'm referring you to my friend Joe. Joe is delivering a high-touch treatment to you. It's $10,000.

Yeah.

I get $2,500 of that $10,000 just for making the introduction. It's absolutely— and many people in the online marketing space, they're making a living without having a specific deliverable. All they're doing is they're making the connection. We have friends that make millions of dollars a year through this affiliate relationship system that they've put in place.

But how are you tracking that? So for example, I'll give you a great example. I have just started referring coaches of color into organizations who are looking for that and can't find them. And I simply say, this is my referral fee. The rest is up to you to negotiate. You do any more work with that client, I can— I get another referral fee. If you charge $100,000, I'm only going to get X. I don't care. Right.

Right, right.

So how do you track that?

So there's, there's a couple different ways that you can do it. If there is a formal affiliate relationship that's put in place, meaning I'm, I'm doing an affiliate relationship, I have an affiliate relationship with a company, I'm recommending their services to my community that's listening to my podcast, they are gonna get a special link, turnkeypodcast.com/grow. If anytime they click on that link, If they buy the services, I am attached to the sale because of that link that I've used. If it is a high-value white glove concierge treatment program and I'm simply making the referral, now it's just up to you, which is why it's not—

it's—

you don't want to have 30 of these affiliate relationships. You want to have a bunch— you can have a bunch of automated services that you have affiliate relationships with. When they click the link, you get a percentage of the sale. But the other ones that they Hey, let me introduce you to. That's just a matter of you now having a good relationship with that referral source in order for you trust them. They trust you as a referral source. Believe me, if I if I refer somebody out and I know that that sale was made and there's no affiliate commission that's that's paid, how many more times am I going to use that person?

Yeah.

So it's trust. It's relationship. It's it's nice guys finish first. It's the whole thing about building relationships.

Yeah, I hear you. And, and for me, I have a contract, I have an agreement because I just like to keep it clean.

Yeah.

Um, just for my own head, right? But I love what you're saying and I can't wait to hear more because I want to know more about the affiliates and, and how, which, how they work, uh, which ones to use for when, and, um, Gosh, I'm so excited about what you deliver and what you talk about. Is there anything else that you would like to say to our audience before we give away too much?

Well, what I would encourage everybody to do is obviously we're— the purpose of us sharing this message even a little is certainly to get some great information to your community. But it's also, hey, I'd love to have you participate. We have our pre-conference session, which is a free session, is on March 11th. And it's called Creating Buzz for Your Executive Coaching Practice in the Virtual World. And if they go to turnkeypodcast.com/virtual, so turnkeypodcast.com/virtual, they'll have access to register for the pre-conference session. And again, it's free and it's, you know, look, the virtual world can seem daunting and it really doesn't have to be that way. So, what we do is we'll take a step-by-step approach to understanding how this online marketing business or online business can work or the virtual world can work for their, for their business, their executive coaching business. And we come at this from a perspective of, we've been there, we know it. We might just be a few steps ahead because we started this 7 years ago with our, you know, online adventure. And it has been, it's been great ever since.

I'm trying to copy the email that you sent me and put it in the comments so people have a direct link. Let's see if it works. Somebody out there can let me know if you can see it. It might only be visible on YouTube. There is one final question. What is a good rule of thumb when deciding what the percentage, the agreement percentage is? Is it dependent on the service? So I'll take a stab at that.

Yeah.

Because I have that question to myself all the time. It really, it depends what the market will bear and In fairness, and that's an important part, in fairness, if you're going to have an ongoing relationship with this person, then the number might come down. If you are not, then the number might come up. You can have a flat rate, or you can have a percentage rate, and you can vary between the two. And so what I suggest is that you try it out. The contracts or the, the introductions that I make are fairly large numbers, and I keep my number down, my commission down, only because I want people to pay, and I want people to feel that they've gotten real value out of it. And somehow when you're too greedy, people will find a way not to pay. So Want something that is appealing to people. You want to be fair, and then it depends upon your relationship.

Yeah, in the online space, I think it— if I could even make it even simpler for those that are just trying to figure out, okay, well, where's my starting point? Where I would use it, what I would use as your starting point is if it's a fully automated online business, there's a 50% affiliate fee that could be split between you and that affiliate partner that you have. If it's a, if it's a service that is a full service, meaning white glove, where you're, you're providing a service, it's time for dollars sort of environment, anywhere between 10% and 30% is, is a fairly, you know, traditional affiliate commission to pay. But 100% agree with you, CB. It just depends on what the market will bear. If you have a very unique service, you might just pay a $100 referral fee for something. If it's a If it's a service that people feel like they could get anywhere other than just you, it could be as much as 50%. It just depends on, you know, some people give away 100% of the upfront fee knowing that it's a subscription service that will last a year. And that way your affiliate is like, wow, this person's really generous. It's because, you know, if it's a $10,000 service but a $2,500 upfront fee, pay the $2,500. Because you want that referral source to continue referring business to you. You got this, you got the other $7,500 coming for the rest of the year.

Exactly. Exactly what I'm saying about not being greedy. I, you know, I mean, I think about most of the contracts that I'm referring as an executive coach, they're going to be anywhere from $30,000 to $100,000 for 6 months. I am not gonna ask 50%, right? Nobody will want to work with me. They'll say, sorry, I can go out on my own and get clients.

CB, I just dropped in the, uh, I just dropped in the chat box. Somebody was just concerned about the, the link. If you look in the private chat I just put together for you, CB, you can just copy and paste that, that link into the comments area. Uh, I put an HTTP colon at the front of that. We want to make sure that you go to turnkeypodcast.com/virtual. That's where you'll actually get Access to the registration page. If you just go to my page, you won't get access to the the registration page. So you got to do turnkeypodcast.com/virtual.

Okay, let me put it in. And I think Jasper, if that's how you pronounce your name, and that's your Bajéwa also put it in just now. Thank you so much, and I apologize for not. saying your name right. I know I didn't.

Um, and I would, I would say Jaspal Bajwa.

I think you did a better job.

But no, we got that right though.

What a beautiful name. Okay. Um, so let's, uh, let's end now and let's, uh, encourage everybody, uh, LinkedIn uses this thanks It's our pleasure. Let's encourage everybody to come to the pre-conference, which is free, and look for the registration for the whole conference. Because like Doug, we have some— you know CB's expression— kick-ass presenters at that conference.

Yeah.

Including Martin Lindstrom, who you know just wrote the book Ministry of Common Sense, and his previous book was Biology. And what a book, what a book. So, um, Bridget says thanks, Jaspal, uh, but don't forget virtual.

Yeah, that forward slash virtual. And he says it's just Paul, it's just Paul.

Oh, come on, Just Paul, we, we've got to make it, uh, More challenging than that. Hey, Doug, thank you so much for coming on today and doing this special episode. I want to remind everybody to tune in to Mondays— no, sorry, Tuesdays— with CB Bowman Live: Challenges of the C-Suite. Some great, great conversation. If you missed the past episodes, you can go to my website, uh, www.cb— I think it's cbbowman.com. I've got too much in my head, right?

So many, so many.

Um, and so that takes place on Tuesdays from 12 to 1, and then on Thursdays from— and that's Mountain Time— on Thursdays from 11 to 12, we have the CB Bowman Live, and that is about workplace equity and equality. Hey, I want to tell you something, Doug.

CB.

We found out that, um, Apple Podcasts You know, it has this list of the most listened to podcasts and there are hundreds on there. But I have to say, I was surprised to find my Thursday show, CB Bowman Live Workplace Equality and Equity, is listed.

That's awesome. That's great.

So excited about that.

As you, as you should be. It's not easy to get on that list. So congratulations.

Thank you. Thank you. It's a great show because we talk about social justice in the workplace and we talk about it from a no blame, no shame, just information perspective. Doug, I can't wait to hear you on our special pre-conference on March 11th at 9 o'clock. And I can't wait to hear you at the actual conference. You bring and you give your gift of giving so much information is so valuable and so much appreciated. I send you my heart.

Thank you, CB. Heart received. Thank you so much, CB.

Thank you. And say a big hello and a hug to JJ. She's fabulous.

I will do it. I hear her talking in the other room. I will tell her I said hello.

Oh my gosh. Okay, bye everybody. Be safe, be smart, and be happy.