CB LIVE! Courage to Leap & Lead with Charlene Wheeless, Episode 113
Charlene Wheeless talks about courage from childhood in Oakland through a corporate career in communications to a breast cancer diagnosis at 53. At 12, she questioned a cheerleading coach's bias. After five years of treatment, she shifted from corporate achievement to coaching and speaking, helping others find their own courage.
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I wonder when corporations say they can't find the right people to connect with me, because that's just so not true. And my guest today is a perfect example of courage personified and accomplishments personified. So without further ado, I'm going to introduce Charlene and let Charlene tell you her story. So the first thing we're going to do is say hi.
Hi.
Hello.
Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be with you today.
Oh, it's great. And you know what? We met through colleagues.
Yeah.
Dr. Malikiyan and Shalene are in the same TED Talk, I guess you'd call it coaching program. And so we're in for a great interview today. Um, and so why don't we start with, which I love to start with, tell us about how you got to where you are from childhood. Tell us about your parents, everything.
Yeah, so, um, let's see, I'm originally from Oakland, California. I was born there. I always say not the good part, but, but we were a family nonetheless. Uh, you know, I grew up in a little bit of a rough childhood. My, um, My father, I'm sure he was a wonderful man, but he was not a great father or husband, and he was abusive. And when I was 7, my mother left my father because I had gotten very sick. And my doctors told my mother that I was sick, that I wasn't physically sick, that actually it was all emotional and it was presenting itself physically. And so after 20 years of marriage, that was all my mother needed to hear to decide to leave my father. And I have 3 older brothers, and they stayed with my father. And my mother said, no, you're coming with me. And she raised me as a single mother. She worked really hard her entire life. She passed away when she was in her late 50s having a heart transplant, which I think is just testament to what stress can do to us, quite frankly, from a physical perspective. And I was so blessed to have her. say the lights that shine the brightest shine for half as long. And I think that's true in her case. And so, you know, she taught me some really important lessons in being a girl, being a Black girl in our, in our country and in our society. And, you know, the first thing she taught me was courage, quite frankly, was to have the courage to do what I needed to do in order to get what I wanted and also to have the courage to not just make it all about me. And so I went to college. I'm the first person in my family to ever go to college. So broke that generational track there. And when I graduated undergrad, I went to Texas Tech and also New Mexico State. My mother hadn't— I missed a part. My mother had moved us to New Mexico for no good reason at all. Just because it wasn't Oakland, California. So I grew up in New Mexico, and so I did go to college there. And when I finished college, I had a job offer out in the Washington, D.C. area, and I thought, wow, that's really far away. But I took the job and I packed up my car and my dog. I had a little dog at the time, and I said, okay, Mom, let's go. And she said, oh, I'm not driving across country with you. And I said, I'm going by myself? And she said, yes, you are. You have the courage to do it.
Go.
And so I drove across country by myself. And these were not in the days where you had GPS. These were the days where you pulled out your paper map, right, to chart your way. And you made a highlight line across your route before you left. And I started in the corporate world. And realized early on that there were not a lot of people who look like me and that, you know, I was going to have to dig deep for, for some strength and courage and resilience and all those things that go with it. And along the way, you know, through hard work, but not just hard work, because we all know it takes more than that. You know, I met some wonderful people. I've had great mentors. and even better champions who helped me rise through the ranks in the corporate world. And then at 53, when I was kicking butt and taking names and, you know, leading corporate affairs for a $40 billion company and flying all over the world, I was diagnosed with cancer for the second time, an aggressive form of cancer. And once I went through what I thought was going to be a 7-month journey that turned into an almost 5-year battle. And when I've always been one of those people, and this is also something that I learned from my mother, is that if something bad happens to you, you have a responsibility to turn it into something good for others. So I, once I got better, I went back to work and I thought, okay, I'm making an impact here, but if I could make a bigger impact and create a ripple effect, That continues long after I'm gone, then I've turned what was meant for my harm and cancer into something really good. That's what led me to where I am today.
Wow.
That's a lot, I know.
That's a lot. I'm going to now go back and ask you some questions. First of all, kudos to your mom, as we say.
Yes.
One strong woman and demonstrating courage, not just telling you to go out and be courageous. Right. People say, go be courageous.
Right.
First of all, they don't know what courageous means. And second, they don't know what it would mean to you.
Right.
And 3, they're not telling you how.
Right, exactly. Yeah.
And so it's kind of, you know, you're sort of left in the wind. Mm-hmm. To do what somebody else thinks is courageous in their mind versus your mind and how to do it.
Right. You know, and I think, you know, my first super courageous moment happened when I was 12 years old. That was my first—
I love it.
Oh, I know, right? Talk about leading you into a story. So when I was, I guess I was 10 years old, and we rented a house from a former Oakland Raider football player, Ben Davidson, who's long been gone, but he's known in the histories of football. And he gave us tickets to a home game. And my mother and I went. She was a huge football fan. And my mother and I went, and I saw these women on the field that I'd never seen before. They were the cheerleaders, right? And they were sparkly and shiny and happy. And, you know, they were all the things that I wasn't, right? And I thought I was so happy watching them, but I was also a little— it made me a little sad because I thought, you know, I'm just a little skinny Black girl, you know, that this is— I could never do that. But then while I was watching it, watching them, I thought, Yeah, maybe I can. Maybe I can. And when I turned 12, so I was 10 at the time, when I turned 12, I started junior high school and they had cheerleader tryouts. And I decided to try out. I said, okay, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm going to try out. And I did. And I made it as the 4th alternate. Right. So think about that. The 4th alternate. It's like, what is that anyway? You're never going to get on that field.
Yeah.
And so I I thought, well, okay, that just went up in smoke. But then the sponsor— they weren't coaches at that time— the sponsor moved me up and put me on the team. And I asked her why, because, you know, in your 12-year-old innocence, you don't know. I said, you know, but I know math, right? That some people had to leave the team in order for me to get on the team. And she said to me, CB, she said, you know, Charlene, you're talented and you're a nice little girl, but you're Black, and I thought you'd be a troublemaker, so I didn't want you on the team. But now that I've seen you in class, you're nice and you're a sweet little girl, so I now want you on the team. And I think that was my first courageous moment because my thought, my first thought was to be hurt and to be angry, right? And to really start to try to figure out what was the deal here going on. And my teacher, you know, she was the sponsor. She wasn't Black. And I thought— and I can only say that it must have come from my mother— is that I'm going to turn this into something positive. I'm going to have the courage to go out there and be the best darn cheerleader ever, right? And people think about cheerleading as being this flighty little thing, and it's all about, you know, what you look like and jumping up and down and carrying these pom-poms. And it is all those things, which is great, but it also taught me leadership. It taught me how to stand up for myself. It taught me how to take risks. It taught me how to be in front of hundreds and ultimately thousands of people and perform, right? And I would say, and to even not be afraid to express my personality. And so that's why I say at 12 was my first really courageous moment. And I think that set the tone for the rest of my, rest of my life, quite honestly.
Well, so here's your really first point of being courageous is asking the coach why.
Why? Mm-hmm.
That is courageous. And, and that falls into, you know, what I call micro courage.
Wow.
Into a building to save somebody, but standing there in front of somebody of a different race.
Mm-hmm.
And you're 4th on the list and asking them, why are you moving me to the top? Could have had all kinds of ramifications. And actually it did.
Mm-hmm.
That's the second point of courage, right? For you then to take those moments and move them into a positive zone. Wow. And at your age at the time.
Yeah. I, you know, yeah, it was, it was crazy. But here's the, here to me is the funniest thing about it because sometimes people don't really think about how important their words are. And how words matter.
Yeah.
You know, I— and now I am 58 years old. I was 12 when that happened. I can recall that day and relive that day like it was yesterday.
Wow.
You know, words matter, you know, and I think sometimes people don't realize that.
No, they don't. And they don't realize, I think Even more than matter, words can be pivotal, pivotal moments. Mm-hmm. And absolutely. Mm-hmm. So I wanna go back and ask you something, 'cause I put the timeline together. When did your mom divorce your dad? When did your mom get sick?
When I was 7.
Ah. Mm-hmm. So she had the time to nurture you.
Yes.
See what— wow. Wow. It's— God, I'm speechless. Because walking away, understanding— first of all, the fact that your mom understood the importance of getting you away—
Yes.
—from that environment. That speaks so volumes. And the fact that the doctors told her the truth. Let's go back there.
Right, right. I mean, we're talking in the drugs, you know. Yeah, we're talking the late '60s, early '70s, right? And here she is, a single Black woman with barely a high school education, right? And she left. She said, my daughter is more important than this. And she left and chose to raise me on her own. And I was a great kid, if I do say so myself. I didn't get into trouble or anything. But that didn't make it easy, right? I mean, you still have to make ends meet. You still have to— if you can imagine the bias and the racism that she probably dealt with. And in those days, I believe those were still the days, if you can imagine, that you needed your husband's permission to rent a house. People forget that some of the freedoms we have as women were not always that way.
And as Black women—
Oh, right.
Unattainable. And let's just go back a moment to the doctors. Sure.
Yes.
Because kudos to those doctors who didn't— oh, what's the term that I want— minimize your mom's ability to understand what they're saying. I have been in so many situations where, you know, I'll be with my husband, who's white, and the doctors will look at— either ignore me or start talking to me as though I was ignorant. And I'll look at them and I'll say something and they'll, what? That came out of her mouth?
Right.
I mean, fortunately, my family in Detroit, they're all doctors.
That helps.
I'll come out with something out of the clear blue. And they'll— so for example, they'll, they'll talk to him about a specific medicine. And I'll look at them and I'll quietly say, but what about this version of what you're talking about? And they'll go, yeah, that'll also work.
Right? The element of surprise, right? And they have the element of Underestimation.
Exactly. So I love the fact that starting from the very beginning, the doctors there said to your mom what needed to be said, and that your mom then picked up on it and took an action. That's a powerful set of events right then and there. That's a book in itself.
Right, right. And you know, you know, CB, that's my life. Someone asked me— I happen to be a— not happen to be, I am a Christian and very strong in my faith. And someone asked me recently, you can't just put everything up to your faith, right? You just can't say, as my mother used to always say, God will provide. And I said, well, there are so many points in my life where my life could have gone left And it went right, and there is no explanation for why that happened. I said, that's why I have faith, because without it, I can't even make sense of my life. You know, it's like, why did those doctors, you know, speak to my mother in a way that she understood? You know, why did she have the courage to leave a marriage she had been in for 20 years?
Yes.
It's not like it was new. Right. She had been in it, you know. How did she have the courage to move, you know, across country with just the two of us?
And to select a daughter to take with her.
Right. All of my brothers were given the option, do you want to live with my mother or do you want to live with my father? And my mother said very clearly, you don't have an option. You know, I was the youngest, and she said, you, you are mine. You are mine. Right. And there's, you know, even as an adult, you know, there have been so many times where things just should not have worked out. And they did, you know, and to me, you know, a lot of it to me for, you know, may sound kind of woo-woo to some people, but, you know, it's my mother watching over me, you know, I am, I am her, you know, I am her living legacy. And I don't take that lightly, not on any given day.
For sure. Yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm the same way, you know. And, um, I lost my mom and I say, okay, Mom, I've got it. Or thank you. Or I'm just so grateful.
Right, right.
And, and it's, it's weird how after somebody passes who was so influential in your life You realize how much more influential they are than what you thought they were.
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yes.
And the courage to give them the kudos, right?
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. The stories.
Yeah. That's a whole nother show.
Right. Exactly. Exactly.
You and I, we got it. So, okay, so then, um, you went on— we'll skip a couple of things— and then you went on to, um, after you moved to New Mexico, went on to college. What was your major?
Um, my undergrad was journalism, public relations.
Oh my God, of course, of course. So that gave you incredible bench strength. Wow.
Yeah, it did. I just, I fell in love with words. And meaning. And that has been my entire career, has been communications, corporate affairs, you know, journalism. I just love it. Still love it to this day.
Well, you have my envy because I am highly dyslexic.
Right, right. That can be a gift. That can be a gift.
It is an incredible gift, but Language, not, not one of the gifts.
Right. Well, we all have our different gifts that we bring to the table.
Strategy, definitely a gift. Mm-hmm. So, okay. So you go to school and you travel across country cuz your mom has the wherewithal to say, use your wings to fly now.
Yes, she did. She did. I was—
How did she have the strength to say that?
Well, you know, I can't imagine because my daughters are, um, I have 2, they're 28 and 27. And even now, if one lives in LA, and if she said to me that she was going to drive across country with her dog in here to DC, I would lose my mind.
Right.
I would flat out lose my mind. And, you know, you know, some people, you know, can confirm a story of her flying across country in business class with a seat for her dog. Right, which may or may not be true. But anyway, there was no way I was going to have her drive across country. I mean, I, I would lose my mind. And at that time, with my mom, when I left, I was 21 years old, you know, just driving across country with my dog and my stuff, which all fit in my car, by the way.
Wow.
Yeah, yeah.
And through the South. Okay.
Right. Yes, it was, it was crazy. I was, and I, I was scared to death. Right.
How did you deal with that? I would have been so scared.
I was really scared because I had not— at that point, I hadn't driven 4 hours anywhere. Right. And now we're talking a days-long trip. And so I did things of making sure I stopped at a hotel for the night before it ever got dark. Right. So I never drove if it was dark in the morning or dark in the evening. I never drove in the dark. You know what I think really helped me was because my dog was with me, I was so focused on keeping him safe, I wasn't focused on my own safety. You know, and it's, you know, I obviously I didn't intend it or plan it that way, but I just wanted to make sure he was okay. And I think it took some of my own fear away.
You know exactly what you're saying. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I was relieved when I got here.
When I decided to sell my house in New Jersey and move cross-country, I had my dog with me, and it was such a focus on him. I didn't have any place to stay here in Colorado, and I just said, I'm doing it. Yeah, right. I sold my house in the middle of my giving— having a conference. I just said, you know, I'm just gonna let the chips fall where they may, right?
I'm out of here, right?
But yeah, I was always worried, you know, was he by my side? Would he get loose? Would, you know, right? You know, so yeah.
There's power in taking the attention away from yourself, right? On so many levels, there's power in that.
So tell me, so you walk in, this young kid Corporate America, where was your first position?
Um, I worked for IBM Federal Systems, actually, in Rockville, Maryland.
Wow. All right. And you mentioned that moving up, you had great mentors and supporters. What did you know as a young Black woman, first job, How to amass this kind of following?
Oh, I didn't. I hadn't. I had no idea. You know, when you, when you start a new job, everybody gives you pretty much a version of the same advice, right? Go in, put your head down, work really hard, and someone's going to notice, right? They're going to pluck you out of obscurity and you're going to have this great career. So that was the advice I was given, right? So to everybody listening, that's the worst career advice ever. Right. It just doesn't work that way. You know, I went in, I put my head down, I looked up, and I realized the people who didn't put their heads down but started talking to people and making sure that, you know, that their successes were known were rising faster than I was. Well, actually, they were rising. I wasn't rising at all.
You and I had the same experience. Yeah. Right.
Yeah. It wasn't a race because I wasn't moving. Right. And so, you know, as I, you know, I only stayed there for a year because in all of my wisdom of 22 years old at the time, I thought, oh my gosh, these people could never work anywhere else. They only know how to work here. I didn't know how right I was because those were the days of the IBMers kind of, you know.
Yeah.
And so I moved around a bit and then ultimately landed at another big company. And throughout that time, I started to understand what it looked like when I was being treated differently. You know, I started to understand what it looked like when I was not being listened to or spoken over, you know, because, you know, in those days we respected the hierarchy, right? You, you knew your place and you did what was asked of you. You didn't step out too far. And, but I just started noticing how that was working against me.
Not, you know— I'm sorry to interrupt you, but no, I want to know, because I went through the same thing. How did you get this awareness? What, what made you— what are the alarms other than people getting promoted? What was it? What triggered you to understand what was going on?
It was, you know, making friends at work, um, friends who didn't look like me, because there weren't people who look like me, and just asking questions and listening to what was happening with them versus what was happening with me. I started paying attention to meetings that I wasn't invited to, that given my expertise, I thought I should have been. I started noticing people talking over me or for me, giving my ideas but taking the credit, because when I said it, nobody heard it. Right. Yeah. And then just being kind of flat out ignored, like walking into a room and people behaving as though you're not even there. Right.
Absolutely. Okay. Now the key, key that I want to ask you is, what did you start doing to make a change?
I started— well, one, I, um, I really worked on my courage, right? Because it takes some courage to speak up. And I started saying things in meetings like, I'm sorry, I wasn't finished with my point. Can I finish my point? Right? And I do it in just the same voice. You know, I wasn't trying to be combative or anything, you know. And then I'd get up the nerve to ask my boss, why? Is there a reason I wasn't invited to that meeting since I'm the one working on this project? And I always came at it from a point of curiosity, at least from their point of view, right? You know, and, you know, it's kind of that saying of you can get mad or you can get even, right?
Yes, yes.
Right. And so for me, it was— I wasn't going to get mad. And, you know, getting even, you know, that's not my job. You know, that's God's job. But I could at least—
I love that expression. I've never heard of it before.
Really? You know, but I figured I could just Start to— I tell my girls every day that— I tell them that every day you're teaching people how to treat you. While I didn't have those words at the time, I just slowly started understanding that every day you're teaching people how to treat you. Now talking about it, it seems like, oh yeah, it was so easy I just decided to stand up for myself and speak my mind and this and that. It took me 20 years to speak my mind, right? You know, it took— these things took a lot of time, you know. And the one thing that I didn't conquer until I hit my mid-50s was that feeling of letting people make me believe that I wasn't good enough.
Yeah.
For whatever reason was in their mind, right? Not my mind, but their mind. And often when people who are higher up, they're CEOs, they're chairmen, etc., and they communicate to you that you're not good enough, if you're not careful, you'll believe them.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Right. You know, so, so it wasn't all, you know, 10 years in, I'd had all the answers, I conquered everything. You know, I, I wish it had been that easy, but a lot of it also just came out of frustration and just being tired, tired of being overlooked, tired of being treated as though at that time that I didn't have 3 degrees, you know, tired of being treated as though I was different when I wasn't, right? Or, or that I wasn't qualified. You know, when I was probably overqualified. And sometimes I was underqualified, I'll acknowledge that. But, you know, it was just, it was just a number of lessons and things that I learned along the way. And sometimes it was just a matter of getting sick and tired. You know, as my mother would say, I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired.
I remember my mom saying that.
Right?
You know, I just have such admiration for you, uh, one, for the courage that you've displayed, and two, most importantly, being willing to share it today. You know, when I hear you speak, I want to volunteer to be one of your daughters. The advice they're being given is so rock solid. Now I want to jump forward to cancer.
Cancer.
Tell me. You mentioned twice. Let's start with the first time.
As crazy as this sounds, the first time I ignored it. I literally got a cancer diagnosis, and I said, Well, is this a fast-growing cancer? No, it's not fast-growing. Okay, so how much time do I need to deal with this? I mean, it was like— they called it like stage 1A. So I wasn't in a hurry. I knew I was going to need to have surgery. And so I pushed it to as far as I could because I was busy, right? I'm working. I'm killing it, right? I'm busy. And so I pushed it as far off as I could. And then I had surgery. And as I say, I don't have much of my original equipment. The OEM manufacturer of God, he took some of those parts away. And then 6 months later, I was diagnosed with aggressive breast cancer. And so then I couldn't ignore it. And it's interesting to me, CB, because I— not at the time, but I've come to believe very strongly in the mind-body connection. My body told me I was sick long before I was diagnosed as being sick. I knew something was wrong. I didn't know what. I certainly didn't think it was cancer. The first bout with cancer, I truly believe I was being sent a message. And I just wasn't listening. So when it came back around again, it was like, okay, we're really going to make you listen now. And what made the difference is my doctor, who I had known because we'd served on a board together, she said, Charlene, you are very straightforward in your conversation. And so that's how I'm going to speak to you. You need to not work. During your treatment, your 7-month active treatment. I actually kind of laughed. I was like, well, that's kind of like the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. She said, I can almost guarantee you that if you work during your treatment, you'll die before it's over.
Wow. That's pretty blunt.
Just like that. Just that blunt. I thought, okay, this is not something that I could ignore. That I had to pay attention to it. A week later, I told my boss and the chairman of the company. I said, I have cancer, and they believe it's going to be 7 months, a 7-month treatment, and I need to take off work, and I'm leaving next month.
Right.
He said, we're Team Charlene, so you do what you need to do. That started just an incredible journey. People always call it, myself included, the cancer journey. Journey implies that you're having some fun going on a journey.
That's not quite true.
That's really not it when you have an illness. But it just upended so many things about life For me in ways that I could have never imagined. You often will hear people say, oh, well, this was actually a gift because I have so much more now in the way that I look at life. I do look at my life very differently— my family, my kids, the whole thing. But you'll never hear me say cancer was a gift, ever.
Right.
Because it was hell. And it led to an identity crisis that I could not have ever, ever imagined. And I lost myself in the middle of the whole thing. And I hadn't planned on my treatment going from 7 months to 5 years. I had had 9 surgeries in 3 years.
Wow.
That's disconcerting in and of itself. But when you go under anesthesia, I think you get a little dumber each time when you come out.
Yes.
By the 9th time, I was like, okay, wait a minute. But in all seriousness, I mean, it was horrible. It was horrible telling my kids. It was horrible watching my girls watch me go through it. When I lost all my hair— and people who have not been close to it think that when you lose your hair, that it's a vanity issue. They say, well, you lost your hair, but at least you're still alive. It's not about vanity or beauty or any of those things. It's about identity. It's about all of a sudden you look in the mirror and you don't even know the person who's looking back at you. Right. And the longer it goes on, the more you lose yourself and the more you forget who you were or how to live, because now all you know how to do is be sick.
Yes.
It's crazy. You lose friends, and it hurts when you lose friends who you thought would be there for you thick and thin. But not everybody wants to be around a sick person all the time.
Right.
Now, you also gain friends. There were people who stepped up that I barely gave a second thought to sometimes. There is kind of a balance and a yin and a yang. But I wouldn't wish cancer on my worst enemy.
When you say you lost yourself, what does that mean?
So I had spent so much time being this hard-charging achievement junkie executive. I knew how to be her. I absolutely knew how to be her. I solved problems. If people needed something, I'm on it. Let me solve this problem for you. Got it. You're good. Okay, who else can I help? Let's do this. Let's move here. And then what I wasn't used to was asking people for help. Right. And I had to ask for help because there were things I couldn't do for myself. Right. You know, when people would say, oh, do you need anything? I'd say, no, of course not. I don't need anything at all. The reality was I couldn't walk up a flight of stairs if I needed to get upstairs. somebody had to help me, right? There were times. And so when that happens, it's like, wait a minute, that's not me. I'm the one who helps other people, right?
Yeah.
And then around my house, like we all do, we have pictures of our family. We're happy, we're smiling. And I got to a point where I would look at those pictures and I didn't look like that anymore. And I would stare at them, CB, and I would say, Not only do I not recognize her, I remember her life, and I'll never be that way again. I'll never have that look in my eyes that the world is my oyster, that I can achieve anything, that the lights won't go out.
Right.
That innocence, some of that naivete that you can still have when you're in your 40s. was still— that light was still behind my eyes in those pictures, but they weren't behind my eyes in real life. I thought to myself, am I still this hard-charging executive? Half the time I have chemo fog, and I can't even remember whether or not I took my medicine. It was like, who am I? When I went back to work— and I did go back to work, not during my active treatment, But in those next 3 to 4 years, I went back to work and it didn't feel right anymore. And it had never not felt right. No matter what was coming after me, I didn't fit in there anymore. There was too much that had gone on inside me and in my life that I— Well, I may have, for the most part, throw on a wig and I kind of looked the same. I just was not the same person, but I didn't know who that person was. You know, it's— my purpose has always been to be a trailblazer, especially at work, and to pave the way for other people, the people who would come behind us. I didn't have the energy nor the desire to be an executive trailblazer anymore. And I'd spent 50, 40 years Kind of building up the trailblazing and at least 30 years in corporate being that person. And that person was gone. She didn't want to do it anymore.
Did you feel that you didn't want to do it because you were tired, or because you had different energy, or because— and it could be all of these— because you now have a wisdom of life that other people are naive to?
It was probably all of the above. I was tired of the hypervigilance that is required of women of color, and especially Black women in the workplace, that, that hypervigilance That alone is enough energy for a 50-hour-a-week job, and you have to do that on top of doing your job.
Yes.
And I was just tired of putting my energy in that direction. I also became very aware, as you do when you get older and especially when you get sick, you know, I became really aware of my own mortality, and I began to think what do I want? What kind of impact do I want to make? And I was one of those people when people would say, at your deathbed, you're not going to say, I wish I'd worked another 5 years. And I would say to myself, oh no, I am that person. I would say that because that's how much work defined me. But then I became really aware of my own mortality because I nearly died a couple of times during my treatment. I was very aware of the fact that I might die in those times. Then it became, I'm my mother's living legacy. What kind of impact do I want to make on the world? It doesn't mean that I want to go out and touch millions of people. But if I can do things that create that ripple effect, then I am touching those millions of people. And I found that by, you know, every time I have a speaking engagement, you know, and I say my little prayer and my intention before it, my intention is always, let me please touch and change one person's life in this room. Because if I can change one person or one leader, then they change the people that they come in contact with, and it creates, as I meant, that ripple effect. So I just had a whole different view on what my purpose of being on this earth was.
Well, you know, it's an interesting conversation because when you were in fact a trailblazer, You were doing it to make a difference and to help people. Mm-hmm. Now you're still making a difference and helping people. Mm-hmm. So you're doing the same thing, but the meaning has shifted. Right. If that makes sense to you.
Oh no, it makes perfect sense. 2, 2 things have shifted. The meaning, right? And the meaning is so much more personal and real and valuable to me. And I'm doing it for a whole lot less money because I'm not getting that. So those are the 2 biggies, right? You know, and, you know, I— the meaning and the value and the sense of purpose and really feeling that every day is really, you know, you can't put a price tag on that, you know. But it's—
Yeah. The other thing that happens is you really start to value what's important. And what's important has changed.
Right. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And I will say that, you know, There are people who I love dearly that I excised out of my life. They brought bad energy into my life. They were somehow in my way of me being able to make a difference or whatever it is. And I really started thinking about, is this friendship serving me? Or am I serving this friendship? And if so, to what extent and to what purpose? To what end? Right. And I really adopted, much to the dismay of my husband, I adopted a view of I pretty much don't do anything I don't want to do with my time.
Yes.
Right. It's like this is my time and I'm not wasting it. I am not going to waste a minute of it.
Mm-hmm. Right. And that— and audience, let's be clear, we're not talking about a choice of washing the dishes, right? Or doing the laundry.
Yeah, you can outsource that stuff.
Mm-hmm. No, we're talking about Time to be, time to be with others, time to be with yourself, choosing who to be with, when to be with. We're talking about taking the time.
Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, and every, you know, I, you know, every opportunity to me is an opportunity to make a difference. in even the smallest way. You know, it might be really small to you, but it could be huge for someone else.
Yes.
You know, and you just, you don't, you just don't know, you know. And it doesn't, it doesn't take a lot to just be a good person. You know, I really hold that close to me is, you know, am I being good? Am I being a good person? You know, and Would so-and-so believe that I'm treating them like a good person will? It sounds so simple, but sometimes—
It's hard.
Yeah, right. Yeah. Let me just say that.
It's hard.
You're right. I don't know. Like I said, I would never say that cancer is a gift, but I will absolutely 100% say that I'm a better person On the other side of it.
I understand what you're saying. I, I, you know, I've known quite a few people with cancer, and everybody, everybody says the same thing. Mm-hmm. You know, and ironically, ironically, I'm hearing that same thing with COVID survivors.
I believe it. I believe it.
And, and I'm a COVID survivor twice, and a long one. So I'm, I'm getting your energy here. It makes you view the world very differently. And when you're faced with your own mortality, that's one hell of a scary thing.
It really is. And you can't, you can't really explain it to people until you go through it. Right? Right. Right. Well, we're also glad you're still here.
Thank you.
Make sure you know that.
Thank you. Yeah. And the whole— the chemo fog is not unlike the COVID fog.
I've heard that. I have heard that.
And that's scary because you sit here and you think, am I experiencing early Alzheimer's or what the hell is going on? Right. You know, I'm not programmed the way it was.
Right, right. And you start to— you can actually— you notice it. You know, like I said, I have a love affair with words, right? And I'm always doing things to build my vocabulary. So at any time when I can't grasp a simple word, um, I think last, last week It was altruism. When my daughter and I, we were talking and I was like, what is that word? It starts with an A. What is that word? And it scares you.
You're like, frustrating as hell, right?
It's like, where is this coming from? Is this a signal of something else? Am I tired? And then I start kind of doing my body scan. Am I taking care of myself? What am I doing? Am I running myself ragged? But all of those things that take you away from little bit of who you are, you know, are very frightening.
And the triggers, you know, I found for myself that stress will trigger it because I've thought, you know, it's gone away, it's no longer here. And I'll be in a stressful situation and it'll happen. And I, in fact, I think I'm just realizing it now that I'm talking to you. Thank you, Doctor. Of course, you're welcome.
You're welcome. And I won't even send you a bill. How's that?
And, you know, you know, it's— we laugh together, and it's so good to do that because it's so good to laugh with people who have had experiences that you can relate to deeper than Just words, right? Not to say that I've had cancer and I don't want to have it. Mm-hmm. And COVID, and right, don't wish that on anybody. Right, exactly. So yeah. Now tell us, with your new knowledge, your additional heart towards people.
Wow. Well, it certainly has changed the way, the way I relate to people. I'm going to start there. Because everybody has a story, right? And sometimes we forget that. We see people, we make assumptions. And we don't like the way people behave. You know, everyone has a story.
Yeah.
And I think that's what I've learned. And it's worth asking them, hey, what's your story? I don't want to just say, hi, how are you? And you say, I'm fine, and we move on. Let's sit down and have a conversation. I want to hear your story. And the other, you know, what am I doing is, you know, I'm a keynote speaker, and I was just talking about this this morning to someone else. I said, you know, I'm a keynote speaker because I have a message to share. And what— and the way this came about was someone had asked me to do a speaking engagement and then started telling me what they wanted me to have in my speech. And I said, you know, with all due respect, I am not a speaker for hire to talk about XYZ. I said, I am a speaker Because I have a message to deliver that needs to be heard to change people's lives. I said, that's what I speak on. And so, you know, delivering that message about you are enough, about it being choice, not chance, that changes your life, and you have a choice, you know, those messages are really important to me, and I've seen them how they empower other people, how they can help people break free from whatever it is that's holding them back or that's trapping them. And sometimes it's just themselves, right? And so being able to carry those messages to people is really important to me. As you know, I am also a coach, and as a coach, we work We work to the betterment of other people, you know, and I think that I get more out of it than anything else when I see someone make this breakthrough. And you know this feeling, right? When you see somebody break through and it's because you were able to help them do that, that is just so powerful to me. And it feels— it's selfless, but it feels quite selfish to me because I get so much out of it. so much joy out of it. And, you know, that, that's just kind of what I do now.
So I want to— you know, I'm known for being— speaking my mind. Okay, I appreciate that. Yeah, it's gotten me into a lot of trouble, but—
I like that.
I benefit from seeing a lot of situations And I wanna share something with you and the audience. When you first contacted me, you know, the audience, I wanna, wanna share with you, we're both members of MG100. Mm-hmm. And you told me about your background and you wanted to be a superior coach. And, and I'm listening to you and I'm thinking, I don't hear anything.
Mm-hmm.
I, I don't know how to help this person. Mm-hmm. I wasn't hearing your heart.
Right.
And that's something to me as a coach of coaches and being the CEO of the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches is very, very important. Right. I will drop whatever I'm doing when I hear somebody's heart. And I remember just sort of gently pushing you away, very kind of gently. At least I hope it was gently. Now I hear your heart. And I think that the people that you coach, if you speak to them, the way that you've spoken to us, the audience, they're so lucky. Because what you can see in them and see what they don't have is courage and heart. And that's really the solution to all problems.
Right.
And I hear that you have that now. So kudos to you. Oh, thank you.
Thank you. Yes, you know, even becoming a coach, to your point, I mean, becoming a coach has been a journey as well. And really understanding that as a coach, you are working with people about their lives, right? I mean, not just, you know, there may be a specific situation, but coaching is really about Rarely about what you think it's going to be about, right? Even with each session, you know, and you are impacting someone's life and how they're able to walk through the world, right?
Absolutely.
And that can't be, you know, you have to understand that. You have to understand and really hold gently that power.
Yeah.
And I think when, to your point, when I first became a coach, or what I used to say when I first, which was probably a red flag, when I first started this coaching thing, right, and kind of figuring out what it is and what it isn't, I'm thinking, oh, you listen to people, you give them some advice, you say, here, this is what I would do, and then you go on to it. And then You know, next kind of thing. And it's so much more than that.
I think that's about the time that I met you. You were moving through that process.
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And now it's just so, you know, I just think about my own growth, right? And my ability to help others grow has changed so dramatically. You know, and with, with coaching and even with, um, you know, with speaking, you know, as I said, you know, I, I won't speak on any topic.
Yeah, that, that doesn't serve the purpose. When you become a master coach, you really become a great speaker, I believe, because I mean, you're communicating to your clients, right?
Right.
To me, a master Uh, rules and regulations or goes by a script.
Right.
Defined by an association. Mm-hmm. To me, being a master coach means hearing.
Right.
Listening for what is not being said.
Mm-hmm. Right.
That's where the information is that you need to guide.
Mm-hmm.
And that takes a special skill set.
Yeah. You know, one of my favorite questions in coaching that I ask my clients when they'll say something, they've had some kind of discovery and they'll say something, and I'll say, how does that feel? You know, and they'll tell me what they're thinking. And I'll say, no, no, no, I want you to pay attention to your body. How does it feel when you say that? Tell me, what do you feel in your stomach? Do you feel it in your chest? Where do you feel it? And when they connect those 2 and the power that comes out of that, it's just so exciting. Yeah, you just want to kind of jump up and down. But yeah, it's just that has— becoming a Coach has truly been a blessing.
Well, we have a great profession, right? So I, I'm noticing the time, and so I want to continue our conversation, but I want to respect our audience and to be a little bit of devil here to say, come back for part 2. So Charlene is not going anyplace, um, and we are going to continue the conversation. We're going to come back for part 2.
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