CB LIVE! Courage to Leap & Lead with Guest Dr. Mongezi, Episode 89

Hello everybody, it's CB. I'm using my sexy voice today because we have a guest on today. I know I'm so bad, don't you just love it? So it is Tuesday and you're here with CB live. And you're on Courage to Leap and Lead. And remember to leave comments, to listen to us on your podcast and leave comments. We love comments. So get to it.

Okay. We are talking to Dr. Mongezi. Now, you know, Back in 2021, very early, I interviewed Dr. Mungazi, and he was such a hit that I was asked to bring him back on. So this is a first for CB Live where we have the same guest on again. But this man, brilliant, funny, humility, You could just go check, check, check. He's the best. And in true transparency, Dr. Mengeshe and I worked together on WE, which is Workplace Equity and Equality. We are now working on other exciting things. And you know, mine is about implementing courage in the workplace.

Yes.

By the way, I just dropped a new newsletter. So, you know, it goes out the first week of every month and it's all about courage and it is a great issue. You must see it. It's on LinkedIn. Of course, you know, we love LinkedIn. So without further ado, let me bring back— introduce Dr. Mwangazi. Doc, how you doing?

I'm good, CB. How are you doing? It's good to see you again.

It's been a while now.

It has, it has. I don't even know how the year is treating you so far.

My God, it's just, it's just time is just going by way too fast. So I want to get to what are you up to. Well, first of all, for those few people who don't know you Tell us about you.

Oh yeah, that's always very difficult. So I always say, uh, and I always just go straight to the very— so I go, I go like, if you want to know who I am, it's very easy. You can just Google me. I am everywhere. But there are 3 things—

That's my line, you can't borrow it.

There are 3 things though that you won't find on Google. I'm an African, I'm a leader, and I'm an elder. I'm an African because every day I wake up asking, how do I put African descent of the world where it's supposed to be? So I do a lot of that everywhere. I am— probably I'll share a little bit of a story about what just happened with Europe and all of that. And I represented a little bit of what my continent can do there. And then 2, I say I'm an elder. Where I come from, an elder is not about age. It's about how do you take those that come after you to create the world that is much better than they are, than they have, so that they can do it better. Dr. Miles Monroe put it very nicely. He said many leaders are more interested in the next election than they are in the next generation. not that guy. Next generation is important. And lastly, I say I'm a leader, but it's not in terms of the position. It's because I sit on a number of boards and all of those things, but it's more about how I don't wait for things to happen. I make things happen. I get in trouble quite a lot. But someone said to me, if you're a leader and you're comfortable You're probably not leading, you're following someone else. That's me in a very big nutshell. Otherwise, I can sit here the whole day.

I love that summary of you. So an elder, a leader, and an African. Yes. Okay, we're gonna go with that. So in that order, tell us about how you relate to my platform about courage. Now, When I talk about courage, I'm not talking about it in the big esoteric, oh, everybody has to be courageous. I'm talking about courage in the workplace, courage in everyday life, because we're all courageous. And it's time—

Yeah.

With these pandemics, it's time that we stop and say, Great job for being courageous. So I want to know about your great jobs in being courageous. So you mentioned Europe. Let's start with you as an African. Now, what gives you the opportunity to brag about Africa?

Well, I don't know if I would brag about Africa, but I I think for me, it's about continuously putting Africa in the center of the world where it's supposed to be. And sometimes it's not bragging. Sometimes it's really about saying this is the 2nd biggest continent in the world with probably about 35% of the resources of the world. But most of the time, what kind of drives me nuts and it drives me as well to do things across the world is that sometimes we are treated like a second-class citizen to everybody else. I think I have shared a couple last year when we talked about my 1987 awareness that we were called the big black continent. I'm like this young teenager and I'm going, what is that? I never really understood what that is about. My job has been since then around creating some light to what the continent is about. Recently, I was invited. If you haven't Googled me yet, you'll know that I work about 70% of my time as a leadership coach across the world, different parts. I run the professional body for coaches, so I've set standards for coaching. Um, for, uh, many of the coaches across the continent, um, in about 8 regions in the continent. So, uh, I'm, I'm doing a lot of work around coaching. And one of the other things that I do is a coach supervisor. So I was invited to this international coach supervisor conference. So when we were having a conversation earlier—

By the way, did you see Terry there? Terry?

No, actually, no, I didn't.

I think it was there. Yes. Okay.

I didn't. I would have remembered because I would have said, hi, Terry.

Yeah.

So I was at this conference. Now, they explicitly asked me because I'm African and they said, oh, well, you need to come and present, represent a voice of Africa. Africa is 1.3 billion people. So I'm very small in comparison. But one thing that was at that point annoying me that I brought into the room, because this is how I am, I'm not afraid to speak the truth as it shows up.

This is true.

But I'm hoping when I speak it, I speak it with respect, with humility, but with clarity. I said, one of the things I don't appreciate, one of the things that's happening right now is there's a war in the world, but we speak about it as if it's the only war. And when on my continent there's at least 3 or 4 big wars that are happening— Africa is huge, 54 countries— so there's 4 countries that are at war with each other, but— and there's about 6 other countries that are having coups So why is it that we are not having a unified response as the world to this?

Well, I think we're having a unified response to the world with relationship to Ukraine. But it's interesting that you said that because for the past couple of days, and I don't know why, it popped into my head when I was thinking about Ukraine. And I said, you know, there's other wars going on. So why are we focused on one war at a time?

Yes.

It's like we select which war we're going to pay attention to. And it just left my mind because I didn't have an answer. I didn't have a place to start and I didn't have a place to finish. But it's been sitting there in my head.

Yeah. And I think part of that conversation, CB, is not in blame. It's in creating awareness of exactly this selective attention that you're talking about.

Yeah. What kind of voices do we listen to? Why do we have that going on in our heads?

Yeah, I don't know if I have an answer, but I do have a hypothesis that essentially says many times we have been conditioned across the world that anything that has a lighter complexion is better, is worthy, is valued. However, and I don't want to make it about race, I just want to make it about the reality and the hypothesis of what I see. And anything that essentially is of a darker hue, And this is not about blackness, it's about melanin in general because I've seen it. If you look, I've done this work around worldviews. So we talk about Northern worldviews and Southern worldviews and Eastern and Western. So in a Southern worldview, if you check, most of the people below the equator are of a darker hue. whether you're talking South America, Argentina, or India on the other side, and then in Africa. And I find that the response is more or less the same everywhere to people in the South. And I continue to wonder what that is about.

So tell me more about that, because are you saying that Are you considering Africa the South, right?

Yes.

Okay, so let's think. So anything that's Latin, anything that's of color would be in the South. Okay, if I go along with that, and that's an interesting theory, and then now I take the United States. And we're looking at the South. Now we have people of color in the South, so it gets a little bit more complicated.

Yes.

In general, I think Northerners think of themselves as a higher caliber than their Southern brothers and sisters.

Yes, yes. The pattern repeats itself even there because one of the things I discovered, CBU, so you're probably going to regret calling me on your show because I'm going to be crazy in a while.

That's fine. I love it.

One thing I didn't know, and I don't know why it shocked me because it's not supposed to shock me, that actually Abraham Lincoln was not Caucasian. And I'm going like, oh my God, actually it makes so much sense. So when you now talk about the North-South split in the US itself, in Chicago and Illinois where he grew up. And it didn't matter that you are Black or white because, as it says in New York, if you can make it there, you can make it anywhere.

Thank you.

So anybody who came from anywhere in the world arrived as a foreigner, into the US and American dream can make it. He made it and he became the president of the United States. But the Southerners didn't really care so much about it because there was a different perspective in the South that says, as a tall, lanky Black man, he is not supposed to be canceling slavery and all of these other things. And they killed him. That's the short story.

Mm-hmm.

But that was a 4-year journey for him. But for me, what became interesting is this North and South issue again, because people were then asking me, Ayman, you can't say Abraham Lincoln was Black. He wasn't Black. And I said, well, from an American perspective, he definitely was Black. Because he was not white. He was a person of color. And from that perspective, how did he then become a president of the United States? Because in the North, everybody was free. Everybody could be judged by the content of their character and not necessarily by the color of their skin.

You know, Mangezi, talking to you, I always get—

I'm sorry!

These flashes of information that I'm like, what is he talking about?

It's not even a secret, right?

And I always feel like I am lacking some intellectual genie in me Because I'm like, what? Am I supposed to know this?

Yeah, my apologies.

Come up with, oh, he's a foreigner, he's going to study more about us.

He is. Yeah, but remember, it's not even hidden, right? It's there. And I'm bringing it up mostly to go back to where we started. which is about worldviews and what informs us to act like that. For me, it continues to be an area of study and understanding of it's fake because technically people say, oh, we are all the same. We are not the same. In fact, that's exactly it. We are all different. 8 billion of us, what, 7.85 billion of us, we are each and every single one of us unique and not necessarily special because that's a matter of choice, it's a matter of taste, but, um, each of us is definitely unique. So from that uniqueness, I think the laziness that comes with us as humans for, for trying to classify in a very easy way And then we say, oh well, she's black, all black people are. Oh, she's a female, all females are. It's lazy because Africa has 1.83 billion people and many of them don't even think like me. So I couldn't even, I couldn't even purport to represent Africa even.

So did you come to, in all of this processing, did you come to a conclusion in terms of why we are focused on Ukraine and not focused on war as a whole, as it affects so many countries right now?

Yeah.

I think it's just— it's just been a time that there has not been a war going on someplace in the world.

I think it's really just devaluing the Blackness. I think it's a short answer. It's devaluing the color, it's devaluing the melanin. Anything, and it's the waves for now, we've allowed the world to be designed. We've allowed it to essentially be attracted to anything that lacks melanin. It's marketing, it's PR. it's working. And all of us, all of us, it's not this person or that person, it's all of us. We've bought into it. And I think for me, the consciousness in bringing this up is then to ask each and every one of us ourselves, where's my trigger? Because the trigger is not the same for everyone. The reason is not the same for everyone. I mean, this is not a very popular conversation to have. We're probably supposed to have a nice, cute conversation about leadership and theoretical constructs and all of that, but I can't divorce myself from this because that is a unique Mongezi lived experience of living in apartheid South Africa that essentially says, Um, being Black is not enough. You are not worthy, you are not equal, you're not valued. And I see that as a pattern all over the world during the news at that time, what was happening. And you know, I'm in the radio now, I do the news and all of those other stuff. That's kind of also what's annoying because then I get to know a lot of stuff, but There was a lot of drama around why is this war happening in Ukraine as if it's this third world. We are not some third world. And I think if we start moving back to what the continent is bringing to the world, because you said I should brag about my continent, we are the home of humanity. Ubuntu. And what I'm then preaching as a polarity to what I've just been speaking about is actually right at the core, we are human, which means we— in fact, this war, what it has just indicated and demonstrated is that We actually cannot do without each other. We cannot do without each other because now what's happening in Russia and what's happening in Ukraine is affecting us here directly.

Yeah.

Let me ask you this, and I'm not sure how to word this so that it doesn't offend anybody, so I'm going to apologize ahead of time. Does the focus on the Ukraine war help us see, understand, and empathize, because we, you know, the media is there. Yes. More than if we, if we, if it wasn't on the front pages, like the wars in Africa, Does it help us understand other wars and atrocities because this one has been placed right in front of our eyes? Do we now understand? I mean, when they talk about Russia leaving a specific area and leaving a trail of death and destruction, does it give us a— What's the word that I want? A reference point. A horrible reference point to what's going on in other wars that are not on the front page.

Yeah. I hope, Sylvia, so I don't have the answer, but I hope the answer is yes, one, but a much more nuanced answer for me I'm hoping it also creates a space for us to question what can we do differently?

Yes.

In responding to humans all over the world.

Well, they say that in order for— in any situation, in order to be able to create a response, you have to be aware first.

Yes.

So this creates a very poignant, a very sad awareness.

Yeah.

The question becomes, we have— what do we do to prevent short-term memory loss? You know, it's the same thing as when we look at Floyd when he was killed.

Yes. Yes.

Now it's almost like, Floyd? What are you talking about? We have mental health to deal with.

Yes.

So Ukraine creates this awareness of atrocities.

Yes.

We've had awareness of atrocities before, but now it's like, But the awareness is much greater now with social media.

Yeah.

Joining television, radio.

Yeah.

Will it help us understand? Will it help us to prevent? What, what can we really do beyond the concept of sending money and food? We know that's needed, but what's needed even more is for this to stop, these wars to stop.

Yeah. You know what's exciting for me? And it's a terrible word to use right now, but it's also a deep emotion that is true as a shift in the world. 2 things are happening for me with this. One thing that's exciting about this is the connection between Earth and us.

Tell me more. So we—

this whole issue about oil, and we don't have petrol, we don't have oil, we need to move, we need to get oil somewhere, and people Because the whole conversation here is that Europe might actually go into darkness in the next few days if we decide to go into full sanctions against Russia because they depend on 40% of Russia's oil and gas. Now imagine if we actually realized we actually don't need oil anymore. Really, because the climate, Mother Earth, has provided us with other resources that if we don't take too much, if we don't go into greed mode, we would actually have enough anyway. That's what I'm hoping that As we wake up to this system, we realize that actually we don't need oil. We don't we don't need to have that much oil anyway. Can we find other ways to start creating the light to whatever it is that we're using electricity and all of those things? Can we go into this thing that climate change has been the climate change conversation? has been calling us to do anyway. Could it be that the war in Russia is accelerating this shift of dependency?

Well, my answer to that—

fossil fuel, sorry, on fossil fuel.

My answer to that is COVID. So COVID forced us to do business Not as usual.

Yes.

This is a good thing.

Yeah.

The result, though, was you know people in the United States don't have a lot of patience. We're spoiled, right? So now we see empty shelves where this conversion of pulling ourselves out of China. It's happening, right? Well, what do you mean we can't get toilet paper? What is this? Empty shelves at Costco. I went into Costco yesterday. Shrimp was on sale because they didn't have any fish. I'm like, what the hell? Right? So we want— Costco was out of roast chickens. That's never happened.

Yes.

Yes.

Okay.

Yes.

This is not like in Cuba where when I went into the stores in Cuba, empty shelves were a way of life. Right?

It's normal. Right?

Right?

Yeah.

Okay.

So now we're going to this changeover. We're starting to pull things out. We're starting to manufacture them here.

Yes.

Workers are saying, hey, wait a second, we're not making enough money to do all this work now. We want more money. So the prices start going up on every single thing.

Yes.

Now we're saying, wait a second, what the hell is going on with prices? I went to pick up my, my dog's medicine at the vet. The price had gone up. Something like $20 in less than a year. Yeah.

So I love those examples. I love those examples because they talk to exactly the consciousness that I'm talking about. It's not sustainable. It can't work.

Well, but here's the thing.

But there's 2 things.

We're doing this changeover to sustainability. Yes, we are suffering and we're not used to it. We're ready to say, let's go back.

Yeah, but this is the point. This is my point exactly, that the consciousness of sitting with that suffering, it's not suffering. It's actually normal. It's a shift back into normal. Because we are used to having too much. Do you know that the, the fundamental way of being here on this continent before we got into capitalism and all of the colonization and all of those things, do you know that, um, all you needed was 5 Peaches of the tree. The rest of the peaches fall onto the ground. They feed the monkeys, they feed the animals, they feed the ground, and then they create the cycle all over again for the tree to have more fruit next year. We only took what we needed. You are on Earth, you take the— you take some spinach, you go and you cook, it's done. You don't have to store it anywhere. There is no supply chain because we were working together. We go into a market, in the market people start exchanging goods. I have too much of this, you have too much of that. We went too much into, all the way into a very artificial society of money. It worked, it worked for a while, but the universe, in my very humble opinions, I'm not sure, I don't say everything I'm saying is the truth, it's just more or less true. The universe is trying to balance itself, and what we feeling right now is Mother saying, enough now, guys. But can I say something else which you asked me earlier, but I kind of want to connect it back again, back to this Mother Nature? But you asked me a very poignant question about, um, the short-term memory and all of that. Again, our fundamental design as humans It's paradoxical. At the core of our brain, we have what we call the amygdala, or what is called the amygdala. It is a space of emotion and fear, deep emotion, a lot of the primitive brain. That's what it's called. So this is the space where we, when we suffer. Or when, okay, when we see the lion, it's programmed to— that we should run from the lion. And how does it do it? It produces cortisol that essentially closes the other parts of the brain, and then only your feet and your hands and your eyes are enabled and you can run. Mother Nature is smart. That way. But it's supposed to only really last for like a burst of energy until you can lose the lion, and then it's done.

Mm-hmm.

Now, when we live in this society that we live in right now, it's very— we have a lion essentially chasing us every other Half a minute.

Yes, that's true.

The anxiety of coming to this show, the anxiety of having to do the next thing and starting a bank. And then before you know it, um, we are essentially exhausted. We are— our body is full of cortisol and we're working pretty much then in a short-term space. We work very much on a short-term memory. We don't have time to actually sit back and relax.

True.

And when does it stop?

Well, now you're going back to my platform, which is having the courage to stop.

Yes.

Having the courage to get off of the Yes. Take a seat on the bench and just look at the merry-go-round and think.

Yes.

Have time to process. We don't. And the war is a real good example of that. We go into this fight mode.

Yes.

Out of fear.

Yes.

Or greed.

Yes.

And I'll talk a little bit about where greed is coming from because you just reminded me now, Bernard— no, Richard Barrett has done a fantastic model that actually explains this very nicely. And it does require courage. You're absolutely right. Why? So how do we get out of the mode? If you noticed in terms of my introduction, I started introducing myself not in terms of all my qualifications and all of the positions and all of these things that I do. They're important, but I introduce myself in terms of values. Because first of all, that's the foundation where we need to go back to say, okay, what do I think is important for me? But what is it that's important for Sibi? What is it that's important for Olga and for Jabu and for Sipho and Michael and all of those? That consciousness of paying attention to values as opposed to things is already a key to unlocking this thing. So Barrett says the first thing—

Wait, wait, wait.

However, The problem with introducing yourself in terms of values is that can be perceived as braggadocious.

I don't know, actually, not, not really. You know why?

It depends on the culture. If you introduce yourself as— which we've both done— you want to know more about me?

Google it, right?

We built up the capacity to be able to say that through— not through bragging for bragging's sake, but through really hard work.

Yes.

Build our credibility to be able to stand behind it.

Yes.

But on the other hand, there are many people who say, Just Google me. Like, I'm just Jack, you know, which then goes to the, who the hell do they think they are?

Who does he think he is? Yeah, right.

Versus saying to somebody, well, you know, I'm CB. I am the CEO of the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches. I have the Women's Power Pack group, and our goal is to help women in the workforce excel. Yeah.

Is that all you are?

I could also say, I'm CB. I have a program which I'm excited to bring to you about implementing courage in the workplace.

Is that all you are?

No. I'm also the wife of an Italian man that keeps me on my feet all the time.

Is that all you are?

I'm a mom to a dog that keeps me on my feet all the time.

Can you hear how everything— can you hear how I take exactly what you say?

Yes.

How is it different if I say I am the chairperson of the Africa Board for Coaching Consulting and Coaching Psychology? It is what I am.

Absolutely different. But if we say to people, Google me, That's different.

But here's the thing, you don't want to engage in conversation, do your homework. Yes, here's the thing though. I mean, you said something very important earlier about having the credibility to be able to say that as well, right? It's exactly the conversation about values. What this conversation we've just had right now is a values conversation, because what I value compared to what you value, compared to what Michael and Jabu and all of people value, is always different. So if I walk into the room, I wouldn't— I don't have to walk and shouldn't be walking into the room worried about what CB thinks about me. That's already the source of why we have a problem. I need to show up as who I am and all my ancestors All of who I am and not be judged negatively for it. But it will happen. So here's the interesting thing that comes out of my research. 82% of the people—

Wait, wait, wait. I have to tackle this. Not being judged. Because I find if somebody says, who are you? And you explain the way I just did.

Yes.

And they look at you, they look at me, and they see the skin color and the sex, and they say to themselves, and who do you think you are? Why is it that you're able to do that? I just—

you know?

So you're— Doomed if you do, you're doomed.

You can't win it. You can't win it. But this is my point, my point, that 82% of the people you're going to meet value something different from you anyway. So the chance that you're going to be in conflict anyway are very high. You are— you're not going to be walking around now worried about who am I going to offend. But you can show up as who you are.

Yes.

And say, this is who I am— dark spots, light spots— because all of us have light and dark, and we bring all of it. So values are important because this is where we go to judge people. We use— so when my— when I value security For example, and somebody is now starting all of these businesses, and and they they have twenty-five businesses, and I'm going like she is not focused. She should be having a job nine to five, and really being able to take care of her family. How is she taking care of her family? This thousand of things, and in their mind. It worked because that's what they value. But the thing about understanding values and how I— because perhaps when I said Google me, it was said in jest because I don't usually say that, but I always—

I like it.

Yeah, there's a nice story about the way I got it, but there are different ways of putting it. I could say a lot of what I would say, and this is how I would say— I said it in other places— a lot of what I can tell you about me It's very easy to find on Google. However, what I want to share that's important, and I hope people don't miss that while they're preoccupied with the Google bit, is I'm an elder and I'm a leader. These are the 3 things that are very important to me.

Yes.

And look at this conversation. We've been speaking for 40 minutes. What have we been speaking about? Africa and how I'm bringing Africa into the world.

Wars, which I think is a really important conversation about what we recognize as a real war, in quotes.

Yes.

And I wonder if a lot of people have thought about that.

I mean, I can't be the—

you and I cannot be the only people Of course. What's going on here?

Yes, yes.

And it has nothing to do with lack of compassion, empathy, upset with what's going on in Ukraine.

It's terrible. It shouldn't be happening.

It shouldn't be happening anywhere.

Yes.

Any place.

Yes, yes. And we hope— I'm hoping it shines light It shines a light, one, on how we tend to respond and selectively respond to different pain.

Well, it shines a light on humanity.

Yes.

Or the lack thereof.

Yes.

You can have a disagreement. You can even have a takeover without killing and raping women and children And killing men. You can have it. Yeah, we have seen it happen.

Yeah, but remember, going back to that animal brain, that's the amygdala that causes us to do that. Because every time I meet you, I'm already in my fear, I'm already competing, I'm already wanting to eat. I'm using now a very strange metaphor. I'm and and and but you know what deactivates the amygdala? Going into relaxation mode, going into self, going into inner knowing. So I am not scared. Let's go back to courage. I am not scared when I show up. anymore when I'm speaking my truth at my center with my values. So when I left corporate many years ago, because that's partly my story of courage, which is always fascinating for me. And every time I think about it, I'm going like, wow, that was fantastic. But I'm learning every time from it. How God is in everything all the time. Because he is experienced.

And why did you leave corporate?

And so I'll go there. So when I continue to look back at it, I realize how God is in the small detail all the time. But a lot of it is around how if you so believe, that God created you as an individual to come in and bring and serve in a certain way. That's what makes us, each and every one of us, unique. Ask yourself, how am I serving already? And you don't have to even believe in God to believe this. Just from a biological perspective, not a single person is like you, which means what function are you fulfilling in the big network? Now, when I left corporate, it was fascinating because I was working— again, it goes back north and south— a huge bank. And then I worked for the multinational, and I was the head of talent there. I had technically made it.

Worked where again?

I don't know if I need to mention the name of the company.

What did they do?

It's a bank. It's a financial institution. It's a bank. So it's one of the major banks here. And so I had been with them for 15 years, and then they merged with another multinational bank, and it became even more interesting. It's not like it wasn't interesting. it being just a local bank. But when it became a multinational, it became fascinating because now all of the people from Europe came in and then they bought this bank. And then the assumption was, we will take over and we will rule Africa because that's where this bank is. bank is. And it became a very fascinating source of conflict because we were— we had already been fighting the transformation process of our own intent as a country, as you know, apartheid and all of those things. So we had already been working very hard to get to a level where I could be the head of talent, I could run the organization and be recognized as talented and contributing. But fast forward, um, what then happened is because of the measure, the, the, the details of the measure, it actually led to us getting the promotions and the positions that the British were supposed to be getting in Africa.

Hmm.

That made them mad.

Sure.

That made them mad. So I called it Jurassic Park. Every morning I woke up and went to the office, and I had a pain at my core because I had to prepare as I leave the house to fight for the whole day, to justify my presence. Yes, be attacked. in the boardroom the whole day. I'm not exaggerating.

No, I understand.

There's a phrase that even today is anchored. Whenever somebody says it, I look at them and go like, you don't know how that triggers. But because I'm aware, it doesn't trigger me as much. I just become aware of it. I'm concerned that every time I would hear that, I know it's an attack on my competence. That's why I left, because at some point I was holding on. I was like, I need a job, I need a job. I'm an executive, I'm earning.

But, but let's get—

yes, yes, guess what God was saying one day? My child, it's okay, let go. I listened. That day when I leave, when I quit, I listened, but I didn't even know I listened. I walked into the office and I went to my boss. I said, my man, I'm done. 3 months notice. I didn't have a job to go to. I didn't have anything to fall back on, and I left. Never looked back. Never worked for corporate ever because I trusted and I believed.

Okay, so let's take this out of a spiritual—

Yes, of course.

Which is part of courage. That's one of the types of courage. Let's take this into— you talked about the physical side.

Yes.

Let's take this into what did you actually— what did you— what caused you to actually implement courage?

No, but, but I think this is the thing, CB.

What caused you to be courageous other than this sickening feeling that you had to experience each day? A lot of that Have those experiences and we just keep at it and keep at it until it gives us a heart attack or some other disease. Yes.

So I'm going to be stubborn here. You can't separate the spirit from it because we are first spirit before we are anything else. So Here where I come from, they say—and this is not gospel, this is not Bible, this is not the church; this is human. Malidoma Somme, a Ghanaian shaman, says when a child is conceived, the community already knows what this child is here to do. If we only pay attention to that call when it shows up because that's our our spirit. Do you know that 50%— and this also shocked me— 50% of pregnancies end in a miscarriage? Hmm. So the fact that you made it already means something. So, so, so just that idea, CB, I had been holding on and holding on and holding on There is no courage there. I was afraid. But what I, what, what I listened to, and I always cannot explain it until I sit down and I go like, hmm, sometimes it's not by your choice. Sometimes you have to listen to why you are here on Earth as your source of courage. Not the Bible, not the church, because that's That's human stuff. But you are special and important here.

Yeah, and I think that's what I'm getting at for our listeners who rather not associate courage with their spiritual side, but more on the factual side, the physical side.

You can't separate it. I'm sorry. Um, I, I, I, it, it doesn't exist in only in physical form. It's, it's not only a mental process. And I think that's what we miss when we sit in corporate and we not do the work we are supposed to do, is because we are stuck in this shell and we think this is all there is. Yes. It's only a part.

Yes.

But, and I think this is also part of me being African. I cannot separate. When we walk into the room, when I see you, I don't just see you, CB, an individual. I see you and all your ancestors. I see you and all your angels because all of us are here to serve all the time, not only in physical form.

Yeah.

So for me, the courage work that we need to continue to think about as well is to realize that— forget— because I think for me, when we say spiritual versus religious, It's 2 different things.

Okay, that's a good conversation. Yes.

Yes.

Religion is not spiritual. Religion is an organization. Whether you're Buddhist, whether you are atheist or whatever, that's an organization that's still physical. It's not spiritual at all. Spirit has no boundary. It doesn't even care who you're speaking to at that moment, because if you are supposed to be speaking to that person and delivering what you need— I mean, the work you are doing on courage, if you look back, Steve Jobs actually put it very nicely. He said sometimes you look back and the dots only connect and make sense when you look backwards. Which means continuously we are leaping in courage. Why? It's not physical. We are being guided by something deeper within us. And the work of consciousness as humans is to pay attention that— so again, sorry, I'll bore you quite a bit with my tradition. No, no, no.

We just have to have you on for a third time because I must ask you this question. Yes. What do you think is the most courageous thing that you have done in 2 areas? One, at work, and 2, in life?

CB, I do it all the time.

Oh, stop!

You're not gonna get off like that.

No, no, no, I'm gonna go. I'm gonna, I'm gonna answer you. I'm starting a bank.

You're starting a bank?

I'm starting a bank.

I love this. Yes, right.

Um, I understand how the world is stacked, but I don't care. It's okay. I can say I did it. I'm not afraid, right? But it's not because, again, I'm clever. I'm not. I have— well, I am. I have a little bit of my cleverness, but I also have smart people around me that I can leverage on and say, oh my God, this has happened. I was actually in Stanford. I was in the US at some— at that point when I made that decision. Why am I sitting here in the U.S. when I could actually just stop hiding in Africa and actually do what I absolutely need to do? So I'm starting a bank. So that's one at work. So from next next year, when you invite me back, I will be head of an executive, an executive founder, and blah blah blah blah for a major bank. And it's actually the first one in the world, by the way, the first of its kind.

I'm putting that out on the universe. I want to be on your board.

Done, done, done. Okay, second thing you said, in life. Sure, again, I, I don't know how to separate the two, but—

Well, in life, let's—

it's more like Personal.

Yeah, I don't know how to separate the two, but let me think. Let me think. Give me, give me 2 seconds. I'll go there. I'll go there. I don't know. Surviving COVID.

Well, that is a big one, I'll tell you that.

Because I can tell you this. The fact that I'm sitting here with you now today, I look back a year ago, I couldn't even speak.

I remember.

This breathing thing has been powerful. So I think the most important thing I think I did, the most courageous thing I did at that point was actually to decide to negotiate to Because I believe that actually sometimes we make a choice to let go, especially when you're not breathing. Yes, it's very easy to just go like, you know what, this is hard. Because that process by itself is some— is meant to be automatic and automated. And so when it's not automatic, you can imagine how difficult. I lost my mind. But I remember there was a day I was lying in hospital. I was like, you know what, I want to leave. I haven't finished the kind of things I need to do, so I need to leave. Then I turned on my side, having made that decision to say I want to see And then that's where now faith comes in, but we're not talking about that.

My gosh, I'm so glad you made that choice.

Thank you. Thank you.

We would have been in so much trouble if you hadn't made that choice.

Yeah. Thank you. I am glad I did. And let's see.

Well, I can tell you that I remember how sick you were.

Yes.

But your mind Actually, I will tell you a funny story.

I'll tell you a funny story. Um, when I walked into— when I got into hospital, um, speaking about the bank, so when I got into the hospital, my colleagues are still laughing at me today because this dude was literally dying in hospital and he's insisting on having a board meeting. Um, to kind of guide this thing. No, I don't want to talk. I just want to say this is how I see this thing, but I'm letting you guys decide on how it's going to be, and then leave me alone now. And then I switched off the phone.

Oh my God. And I remember you attending our meetings, and I'm like, wow, wow. Well, Doc, you made a smart decision. That's all I have to say.

Thank you. I, I, yeah, I agree.

I can't wait to find out more.

Living is always so much better, and I think perhaps that's also a message to send to the rest of, to the rest of the world as we have this conversation. Because that's the lesson I learned, which I took for granted for a long time. Just the ability to breathe in and out.

Yes.

The air that gets into your lungs. For a long time as a coach, I was taking it for granted. I was saying, oh, when people go, oh, but I'm alive. Oh no, that's a very low standard to aspire to. Alive? Come on. You have to Thrive. No, fast. As long as you're still alive, you still got a chance. Treasure it.

What a way to end our interview. I'm speechless. That takes a lot. Wangezi, I see you.

I see you too, CB. I see you.

Wow, what a— you always give me such a powerful interview. I can't wait, and I will never forgive you if I'm not on your board for your bank.

We, we will talk offline. We will talk offline, but definitely we will have a conversation.

Good, good.

Yes.

So everyone, this has been CB Live along with my dear friend Dr. Mongezi. I hope you've enjoyed this as much as I have and you've taken away some incredible pearls of wisdom that Dr. Mongezi always leaves us. Remember, If you miss it, we're on podcasts. We're on so many podcasts, you can just literally close your eyes and pick one, and you will see us. And remember to subscribe to my newsletter, which just dropped today. And I look forward to seeing you on Tuesday next week, where we have another amazing gift— guest. I'm so, I'm so Inspired. I can't even talk.

You are too kind. You are too kind.

Oh my gosh. Well, Doc, I will talk to you soon.

Thank you. Looking forward to it.

I'm feeling your spirit.

In fact, I'm coming to the US, so we should have coffee soon.

Okay.

Yeah, but let's talk offline.

Okay, everyone, see you next week.