CB LIVE! COURAGE TO LEAP & LEAD: Guest Dr. Christine Billy, Episode 94

Hello everybody, it's Tuesday and I'm so happy to be here. How do you like my new glasses? I'm rocking it out just for you.

So nice.

Yeah, listen, you know, we have— I know you're probably tired of me saying this, that we have a special guest, but we do. We have a guest from Well, she's actually from 2 areas. One is France and the other one is Switzerland. And so, and she has the mindset of the US. So my gosh, what a wonderful combination. I'm so jealous of her and the languages that she speaks and what she's doing to help organizations and about her courage. So I can't wait to get started. I want to introduce Dr. Christine Billy. Christine, welcome.

Thank you so much, CB. I'm so happy to be with you, uh, on this show. Yeah.

You know, I want to— when I hear you speak, I want to try to speak French, but I know I'm not successful at it. But I just want to make all my English sound French because it's so beautiful. So if I slip up, audience, I'm not poking fun at her. I'm so jealous that I'm trying to pretend.

Yeah, you know, it's, you know, this accent we get when we are young, and when we learn other languages, we tend to keep it, right? So I'm not trying anymore, you know, to change that.

Love it. So audience, just to let you know, Christine is a member of my association, the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches. And I can't remember how we met, Christine. Did you just send me a note saying you were interested?

Yes, yes, um, exactly. So I was searching for a place to be, let's say, a place to be with people who are engaged in what they do, okay? They have a vision, they want to have impact, make the world a better place, right? Using all their knowledge, their skills, and experience to move towards this vision. And so I, you know, I like to talk with people, I like to You know, search for information, and then I found you, CB, and then I reached to you, and this is how we connected, and there was like something magic, huh?

Absolutely magic. It was one of my best days. I'm so lucky that Cristina reached out because she is a very special person, as you'll soon hear. You know, she just jumped right into the association and has now become our European ambassador, right? European and Europe and Asia. And I have met so many interesting people through her. It just goes to show how small the world can be, right?

Yeah, yeah. It's, it's also the magic of You know, these live tools where we, we feel connected. I actually was just sharing with CB before that we, we, we didn't have yet the opportunity to meet in person because there was this COVID and, you know, and, and we are not traveling so, so much again. You know, we have— we are in different habits. So, but still we can feel connected with this. Absolutely.

And, and I can't stand flying.

Yes. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah.

Oh my God. And it's funny, when I was younger, I didn't have the same problem, but now it's like, I don't want to get on a plane.

I listen to you. Yeah.

Yeah. But you know, it was a different experience then. It was like very fancy and you were dressed up and the airline people were dressed magnificently and You know, talk about friendly people. Now it's everything is a hassle. You know, it's like, wait, this is supposed to be vacation. I'm not feeling it from the very beginning.

And I, if I may, I believe it's very important what you just said, that whatever we do, that we have the pleasure to do it, right? So enjoying being on the trip, you know, meeting someone. And I have actually in the memory, I used to travel a lot and, you know, staying on the plane for 10 hours sometimes and then, you know, talking with the neighbor during all the flight, you know, if you—

Knowing you're gonna have food and, you know, You didn't have to worry about getting food between the gate and the plane and, you know, paying a ridiculous price and making sure you have enough to eat. And just the whole thing has become, you know, it's sad because the younger generation doesn't have a chance to experience what we did. I liked, you know, when you went to the TWA building in New York, you'd see the, the stewardesses all marching with their uniform, all very precise, you know. And it was just— and people got on the plane and they would— it's like when they go to the opera. People dressed up to go to the opera. Now people go in jeans and hoodies, right?

Yeah.

It's insane. But Christina, I want to get to talk about you. Tell us about how you came to be as a child and your work now. So please, I turn the mic over to you.

Yeah. So actually, I had a very— and maybe you don't know that yet, CB, but I have a— I had a very difficult childhood, okay?

No!

Yeah, exactly. Because I lost my father when I was 8 years old. And I, you know, lost him suddenly from one day to another. So this was really a traumatic experience for me. But when I'm sharing that, I don't mean to bring sadness in this room because this is one of the experiences which, you know, drove me to the person I am. Because on that moment, you know, I decided that I would engage myself so that this never happened again, right? So this was really the starting point of my journey as a scientist, as a coach, and everything I do. So my passion is really about health. So I really told myself I want to What we mean when we talk about health, you know, and what means life or death, you know, this type of thing. Okay, now you transition from one to the other, and what type of decision you make, you know, to stay alive and to continue to contribute or not. And so this was really the starting point. Okay, so this is not like— For sure, it was a sad moment for me, and at the same time, it was an opportunity for me to give a meaning to my life. Okay, so that's really how everything started in my life. Yeah.

What happened to your dad?

My my dad had a heart attack, you know. So yeah.

You know, it's very interesting to have a conversation with people who lost their parents when they were young.

Mm-hmm.

There's, you know, they always say there is the yin and the yang of it, of course. But those people who that experience triggered— how do I say it— it triggered something in them to fight back, to try to help other people, to help themselves.

Mm-hmm.

This is a story I hear a lot. You know, yes, you hear stories of people that are angry and they go the opposite direction, but the stories I tend to pay more attention to are those that came, you know, survived and Did what they could do to change the world.

Yeah, exactly. So yeah, and I think, you know, that's, you know, the, the source of my skills as well, my talents, and how I express it. Because I help people as a coach, uh, I help people to turn what they perceive as obstacles into opportunities because I Immediately, you know, flip it. Yeah, so something is happening in the environment, an obstacle, we feel stuck, and I will— I, I can't even explain, but you know, it's like I will flip the thing. I will help people to see things differently.

Mm-hmm.

And that's because I did it for myself, so I know exactly what it means and the power of it. So, you know, I, I have this, uh, these skills, this talent, because I have used that myself.

Yeah.

Share that. Yeah.

That's been an important ability to not create, uh, a sea of sadness that you drown in.

Yeah.

But to extrapolate from the challenges in life opportunities to survive even greater.

And that's probably why I became an entrepreneur.

Yeah.

As you know, and I have read a lot about, you know, the skills of entrepreneurs and the, the source of their skills. The common point is difficult childhood.

Really?

Yes.

Interesting. Is that only in France or Switzerland, or is it—

This was a research, a global research, where, you know, they try to understand what makes an entrepreneur successful or not, because you can extract, you know, lessons learned from that. And, you know, when you had a difficult childhood, the rest is, you know, as we say in French, peanuts, right? whatever happened, the COVID you know, are you kidding? You know, because you have survived something more intense. So because you demonstrated to yourself that you can overcome this traumatic experience, the rest appears really not so dramatic. Okay.

Wow.

So that's how, you know, the mind is developing You prove to yourself that you can identify opportunities in situations. So then the risk-taking, you know, your approach to risk is different. And I'm not afraid of taking risk because I know that I can survive.

How many people did you survey in this research?

I didn't do that myself. This is something I have read Um, I don't even remember where it was published, actually. Uh, and, um, I was really interested to read that and to understand that for myself.

Well, if you find that, that would be interesting. I'd like to put it out on LinkedIn because that is just amazing information, you know. Um, again, it's, it's the yin and the yang. It's the people that don't succeed and then the people that are entrepreneurs that do succeed. And then you If, if people sort of get there but don't actually reach the bullet's eye in entrepreneurship, whether they had an experience with a leg in both, um, experiences, you know, uh, they didn't fully experience the, the negative.

And I, I don't want to say that you need to experience something like this. to be a good entrepreneur. This is not the message, right? The message is that if you believe you can make it happen, you will make it happen. The fact that people who have gone through traumatic experience, um, it's easier for them to get that mindset, it's because they already experienced that they could survive whatever happens.

Well, you know what they say about love? Is that if you don't experience the heartache, then you can't experience the blessings. Right?

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

It sounds very similar. And, well, Catherine Hall said greetings from the high desert. I don't know what she means by that, but welcome.

Yes.

So you studied science. What type of science?

So I first decided that I would explore what health means by becoming a scientist, because I thought, okay, so I need to understand how the body works, okay? And I would like to be involved in developing medicines, okay, to cure disease, because that was close to my heart, right, with my experience. And so this is what I did. So I'm from Paris, And I studied at the School of Science and Pharmacy in Paris, and I became a researcher in science. And then I worked for the French government, and then I came to US, and I worked for the US government as a researcher.

I had no idea!

Yes, this is my link to US.

You know, I love discovering new things about people that I like, and I, you know—

Another surprise for you. I have many other surprises.

It's like when you look at a really good oil painting, you see it, you love it, and then next year you walk by it again, you say, I didn't see that. Wow, that really adds more to it, right? More depth to it. So, wow. So then why did you switch from being a scientist So this is a long story.

So after I spent 2, 3 years in North Carolina in the Research Triangle Park as a researcher, and by the way, something you probably don't know, CB, another surprise is that my first son is a US citizen because my first son was born in North Carolina. So, you know, first of all, I didn't know that you had children.

So let's start there. How many children do you have?

I have 2 boys, and they are now, uh, you know, the, the oldest one is already working in Paris. He's, uh, gonna turn 25, uh, in a few days. Okay. And the second one is 20, and he's finishing study in Paris as well, and he's Um, yeah, so he was born in France, and they are all, you know, they are both very different. They have their, their focus, their passion, which is very different from me, and that's fine like this. Yeah.

I'm stunned. You don't look old enough to have sons that age. Wow, talk about taking care of your health. Gosh.

No.

So I'm, I'm so— I'm speechless with this.

Okay.

So then, so were you married to an American or a Frenchman?

No, I'm married to a French. And so when I— so I was in the US in the '90s. So I was in the US from '95 to '98. And then I could stay. And I decided to go back to Europe, okay, because I'm very French, you know, and I was, I have to acknowledge, I really enjoy US so much, but, and there is something which is so important for French people, probably you know that, which is food, right? So food.

Oh yes, thank God.

And so, you know, CB, I have to, uh, to say that this is the only time in my life when I was living in US and I was enjoying so much. I still have friends there, but you know, I was dreaming about food at night, okay, about French food because I couldn't find the ingredients, you know, to make French recipes. You know, I was in a small city, so it's not New York. So, you know, buying food was a big part of my budget, monthly budget. A big part was because I had to go to special stores and spend a lot of money to get the food I am used to. And not to say that I didn't like eating what you eat In the US, but still, you know, from time to time I was like, I would like to test again this, you know. And so yeah, so because of that, I have to acknowledge that was one of the key criteria for me to come back to Europe.

I can understand that, absolutely. First of all, it's not, it's not only the food and the ingredients, there's something in the water that, you know, when you, when you make that bread and the yeast, it's So different than in New York.

And yes, I mean, I absolutely wanted to come to US because I, I had the feeling that I was very Parisian, very French, and I wanted to open my mind to other ways of living, you know. And I got it, you know. I was, you know, the first 3 months in the US, I was with big eyes like this all the time because I was surprised by everything, you know. For example, I realized that people are not necessarily sitting to eat, or they could eat at any time during the day. And, you know, we were in the '90s, okay? So now maybe it's less you know, a surprise. But, you know, at that time, it was the first time I was flying, taking a plane, you know, and all of these new things discovering. Yeah, you know, why not after all, you know. You know, it was full of surprise and very nice surprise.

I must say, I felt the same my first trip to France.

I'm sure, I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. So you, you became a scientist in the United States. Okay. Still track us now. How did you get to become—

what next? Let's go back to Europe. Okay. So we are back in the plane, and then I start to work in pharma industry. Okay. I start to work for today a famous company. I started to work for Pfizer. And so I started my career there in France and something happened. I was working in the lab and I was fascinated to mix ingredients and check the result of mixing ingredients. I'm fascinated by transformation. And so I was invited to join project teams as an expert.

Mm-hmm.

And as soon as I opened the door, I saw the people seated there. Something happened to me. I said, wow, this is another dimension of health. It's even more interesting to understand what happens when you mix people. You know, you mix people in a room, what's gonna happen? Is it gonna work or not and why? So instead of mixing ingredients in the lab, I like to mix people and see what happens.

I love it. Okay.

So I realized that this will push me to go outside of the lab. I'm still very passionate about lab work, but I'm even more passionate about being with people and connecting people and see what's happening.

Mm-hmm.

So I started my career in project management, okay, leading project teams and motivating people, you know, to achieve something ambitious, this kind of thing, okay. And then gradually I moved to portfolio management, which is overviewing a set of projects and making strategic decisions of investment. And then to change management. Yeah, we can be very successful now. What's gonna happen tomorrow? What should we change now while we are successful to be still successful tomorrow or even more successful? And finally, I became a coach. So after leading teams, I was on the side and helping leaders and teams to be successful and happy You know, and the final stage. So this was over 20 years in pharma at Pfizer and Novartis, big companies in France and Switzerland and, you know, globally. And then there was a reorganization and I decided to take the— it was the right time for me to set up my own company. And this was 10 years ago. So to continue on the side of coaching, And having my own company gives me a lot of freedom to work with very different people, not only scientists, engineers. I still work a lot with them, but also banks, insurance, whomever, you know, just to check if people have different questions, different struggles. How are we successful in the bank industry compared to the pharma industry? What can we learn? So, you know, I like to navigate. in different environments and then learn from that and connect and innovate like this. So, you know, that's how I came to coaching.

Mm-hmm.

And I moved from focusing on improving health by focusing on the curative side Treatment to preventive side. I really believe coaching is a great tool to prevent disease. If you are happy, if you are successful, you don't get sick, or you get less sick. And that is very important for me.

Mm-hmm.

So I have the pleasure today to work with people, individuals and teams, and to see the magic when they better understand themselves, their talent, and their vision, and to see that they can make it happen, you know, I know that I had impact because I helped them to be healthy for themselves, for the team, and for the organization and the world in general, because I believe everything is connected.

So that's But let me ask you, I think this is an incredible focus area for you and the world right now. But I want to ask you the— excuse me, allergies— in the United States, the leadership, organizational leadership, has now come to more of a realization that they need to respect the employees, the people that report to them, and so on and so forth. They need to hear them beyond just profiles in an office, right? But in the United States, at the same time, we have very clear rules as a result of harassment in terms of what you can say, what you can do, almost to the point of how you can feel. So now, so the the feeling part now has become important since COVID But yet we have these laws on that said, don't ask these questions, don't get involved, just be sort of like robots moving. So now, Christina, I don't know if this is happening in Europe the way it's happening here, but when you go into market to a company. And you say to them, my work is in healing teams in organizations so that productivity increases, um, sicknesses— sicknesses, plural— decrease, um, and there's better relationships.

Mm-hmm.

And they say to you, well, When that's what you do, given the restrictions of the law, how do you get past that?

So if I understood well, you, you use the term healing process, did you?

Yeah, sort of, yeah.

So, you know, I believe that you need to connect with what we name in marketing, in sales, or in business in general, and consider needs. So I like to observe, okay, I like to observe how people interact, you know, what they do and why they do that, what makes it important for them, the values, the needs. So I like to spend time to observe.

I know, Christina, because we're in a meeting together, you sit and you're watching and you don't say a word, and then at the end you come, boom, okay, this is what we're talking about.

Exactly, exactly. So I really like to observe to get a sense of what's happening in the room and, and what's important for people. And then somehow connecting with them because we identify a common— something in common or a common need, okay? And when you relate to that, then you can start a discussion.

I mean, a common purpose is really—

Yeah, something that was not necessarily very clear for them. But because you have observed and listened and maybe asked questions, then you connect to something that they didn't even envision before. And because it was not clear to their mind, then the ego, the ego part, the famous ego— we all have ego, right?

Yeah.

It's not involved because it's a surprise. What is she talking about? And then it's pretty easy to, you know, start a collaboration or, you know, work together.

So you don't find that the legal aspect restricts connectivity?

I never asked myself this question. And to answer your point, I'm not sure if that's so present in Europe. Um, yeah, I've never asked myself this question, in fact. You know, I connect with people because I follow my intuition also.

Hmm.

So there is always, in my mind, respect. I connect with someone because There is something I have read or I have seen that feels interesting to me and I'm curious about. So I approach it with curiosity.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

So we have a comment from Coach Jane Kerbuco. I'm hoping I pronounced her name right. K-E-R-B-U-C-O. And she says, wow, love what Dr. Christine is saying, that coaching is a tool that can be preventative of disease resulting in you being happy. Oh, so true. Absolutely. Imagine yourself, Jane, uh, being so unhappy you have to go to work every single day. That's going to eat at you from the inside out. And so if you can speak to somebody and release that tension, that upset, and identify other ways to handle situations, you're going to be much happier over the long run. Even the short run, you're going to have this sense of relief, which is what Christina is talking about. And we don't think about that, Jane, in terms of Teams working together. It's going to be interesting because I'm going to have Dr. Peter Hawkins, the guru on teams, on this show in I think about 2 weeks. And I want to ask him about how, how he ensures that the work he's doing with teams brings them to a state of being healthy, right?

Yeah.

So, so Christine, when you go in to sell, I'm very interested in this, uh, because you're really talking about soft skills, as we say in the United States. And selling soft skills seems to be harder to do in the United States unless you're like a Marshall Goldsmith, because Americans tend to be so hard-driven when it comes to work. How do you convince them? That soft skills relate to being healthy.

And maybe I could start my answer by saying that for all of you who are listening to this show, I have a message for you because I have a vision. The reason, I mean, I explained why I'm doing what I'm doing, and my vision is that one day coaching will be reimbursed by Social Security.

Oh, I love it. Yes.

So maybe, you know, this is a way for me to answer your question, or at least to start to answer your question, is that if I am convinced about that and if I am able to influence all of you listening here that yes, that makes sense, then, you know, we answer your question.

Yeah. Here, not so much Social Security, but, uh, medical insurance. Absolutely. Yeah. Hey, Gordon, we have a good audience today. Gordy is— Dr. Gordy is writing in and he's saying, I'm sitting on a deck looking at the Australian Alps. Oh my God, I'm so jealous. Having just worked with 22 general managers on how to build a high-performing team, These leaders were from all over the world. None of the issues came up over the course of the day. None of the issues came up over the course of the day. Not sure you are even close to the mark. I guess he's saying none of the soft skills issues came up during the day.

Dr.

Gordy, I am not surprised at all because soft skills have the connotation, especially with men, that it makes them weaker if they display it, that the perception of them is weaker. And I myself am a hard-driving person, so I have a problem with the soft skills.

Yeah.

And yet I'm a wimp. I'm very sensitive, right? And so it's hard for people, especially here in the United States where the laws say you can't talk about this or that. I think it's even harder on men, right? Because we're very quick to judge their strength when they show their soft skills, right? Which is so unfair. So I am not surprised that you did this and—

Thank you.

This wasn't displayed. I think the question that I have for Christina is, how do you get people to a place of realizing how important it is?

So not to go back to sadness, you know, the reason why people die from heart attack or other, you know, disease is because they don't take care enough about themselves. So, you know, this belief, be strong, okay?

Yes.

Don't show that you have pain, that you have emotions. Don't talk about it, keep it for yourself, especially for men, because they were for a long time raised like this, okay?

You said a mouthful there.

You see the consequences, okay?

Yeah, I see.

well placed to understand the link, you know. So my recommendation is that we all need to take care about ourselves. That's at the core of leadership. If you want to have impact in this life, take care about yourself first so that you feel good, you are happy, you are connected to yourself, you know, and then you can be present with others and then you can have impact. So it's really connected to so-called soft skills, listening to yourself, managing your emotions, recognizing and managing the emotions of others, is really at the core of leadership.

Yes, but I'm going to push back a little bit, Christine. How are men particularly— let's focus on men right now— how can they do that when they won't admit to having feelings or emotions. They suppress it. So how can they work on this communicative part of it when they are stoic and they're stuck and they have the heart attacks, right?

So my current understanding on this topic, and I coach men and women, you know, both, uh, is that judgment and fear leads to stress, okay? And then you are disconnecting from yourself, okay? Because when you are under stress and you don't have time for yourself, you a little bit lose your mind, right? Because you are more in survival mode.

Yeah.

And you limit your— the access to your skills. Okay, so you limit yourself actually.

Mm-hmm.

So that's where people come to coaching because they realize that they could do much more. I mean, not more in terms of quantity, but more in terms of impact, and they wonder what's going on. And then, you know, my experience is that you get to explore the difference it makes for yourself and for your impact when you are in judgment compared to curiosity. Curiosity means that you are connected to what's happening for yourself in connection with others, with the environment. That's curiosity. There is a holistic perspective of it.

Mm-hmm.

So, you know, it's, it's very human to be disconnected from yourself from time to time. And if you have experience about the difference between judgment and curiosity, I believe that you never go back to, you know, being so much in judgment, right? So you are more in, okay, what's going on now? What can I do with that? Where is the opportunity?

I love what you're saying about judgment versus curiosity. I want to come back to that, but I also want to recognize that there are so many people listening LinkedIn user, I don't know who it is, said, soft skills have unfortunately not been valued or really treated through a corporate situation as productivity has led the way. Oh my gosh, we so agree with that statement. Then another LinkedIn user writes, mental and emotional well-being leads the way to create outer well-being. Inside out. I love that. I love that. And Dr. Gordy is coming back and saying, I've been doing soft skills training for 35 years and collected data on 2,500 teams. You need to be clear on the purpose of a team.

So true.

It is not to display soft skills, it is to achieve results. Soft skills Let me see if I can move this. Um, soft skills are a means to an end, not the end goal. Confusing the two is why leaders do not take consultants seriously. That's an interesting perspective. Yeah. I want to thank you, Gordy, for writing in and clarifying that, and all the other people that are writing in. I love it. Love it, keep it going. Um, judgment versus curiosity. Do you find that there's a difference between the sexes in terms of which they— which, which of the two they're attracted to?

Hmm, not really from my experience. I have experience with women and men who really make this shift pretty easily towards curiosity, and others for whom it's more difficult. And I'm still exploring for myself, you know, maybe new tools or approaches, how I can best help the people who want that change. But still, you know, struggle to make it happen. Because we can also, uh, have, uh, you know, a habit to be in pain or to struggle. So it's like a comfort zone sometimes, right? So you're not feeling very good, but at the same time you're not really taking action to change something, right?

Yes.

I've read a book more than 10 years ago, and the title, maybe you know this book, CB, it's Immunity to Change.

It's a pretty famous book. Yeah.

There is kind of immunity sometimes. You realize, yes, I need to change something in my life, and still you don't, right? So I'm studying that for myself. I'm my own cobaye, what we say, tester, let's say. And I also like to check with people if there are different ways to help to foster this change. Um, yeah.

Are you seeing a difference between how people are raised or their childhood experience in terms of whether or not they're joined— drawn to judgment versus curiosity?

You know, if I refer to my own experience, I think I had the choice to be in judgment that day when I lost my father, but I realized that wouldn't be so helpful, you know. Nobody to blame, you know. It's just like, okay, what can I do with that? So I believe you, you are drawn towards curiosity because you want to be useful, you know, somehow.

Mm-hmm.

If you stay in judgment, Sorry to say, I am sometimes also in judgment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's not useful. It is not, right? I mean, the only moment I believe where it is useful is when there is a lion. If there is a lion in this room, I better realize it and be in judgment that there is a danger, because otherwise, you know. But also, you know, I mean, so it's useful, okay? Judgment is also useful for science. So imagine, I was for a very long time in judgment, otherwise I couldn't have been, you know, a successful scientist. I know what it is to be in judgment, because when you are a scientist, you need to be in judgment. You need to decide, okay, this is a good experiment or this is not a good experiment. Okay, so I yet—

Is that judgment or is that just making a decision?

Making a decision, I believe, is a judgment, right? So you analyze data, information, and then you decide what is good or not and what you want to do. So you need judgment. I believe you need curiosity most of the day.

Mm-hmm.

And then from time to time, judgment, which is a good thing because judgment requires energy. I believe curiosity doesn't.

So, ah, okay, that's interesting. You know, I want to— I just wanted to make a note on that. I want to ask you some questions regarding courage. You selected 3 questions. We may run a little bit over, but I think you answered the first one.

Yes.

Talk about a time when you had To have the courage to take an aerial view.

Yes.

A problem that—

That was the first one. Exactly. Yes.

And then we asked you, talk about a time when you had to have the courage to dissect the problem, to, to, to discover the root cause in order to solve what was stopping you from moving on.

Exactly. So I already answered partially. to this one when I explained that I decided to move from science to coaching because I realized that—

Good.

I have to say, for all the scientists who are, you know, listening here, I have to acknowledge I realized for myself, at least this is my perception, that I was limiting, uh, you know, my perspective, my understanding of health if I was focusing only on judgment, which is mainly how I believe science is done. It's a good thing. Science is a good thing. I wanted to explore this topic of health from different perspectives, so using more of my curiosity as a coach. That's why I did it.

We have another question from Coach Jane. I love it. I know soft skills are very critical in current times. Yes. A leading, very successful male MD in Kenya has allowed the use of soft skills in his work and it's endearing him to the companies he has led. Yeah. Yeah.

Maybe, CB, I can share a story.

Please.

You know, after my career as a scientist in pharma, I went to coaching gradually, right? So I was coaching leaders, okay, um, executives, and I took a lot of risk. I really took a lot of risk. Yes, I can tell you, this is the link with courage.

I love that expression, Olympic courage. Okay.

Yes, almost, I have to say, because I can tell you nobody wanted to do what I was Trying to do, okay? Because you know I had some time to be in a room with very high-level people. You know at that time these these people they can you know we had they had the phone you know the first you know phone you know where you can text you know and then you know they could in a minute literally fire you, okay? So, you know, you go there, it's like being with lions, okay, in the room, okay. But I was not feeling danger. I said, yeah, I want to be there. I want to be there because something is going to happen. So I take the risk there. So what do I mean by that? I was asked to facilitate discussions between these people, okay. So imagine people, it took them 20 30 years sometimes to get to a certain level in an organization. So a lot to lose. If I say a word not exactly like the boss wants, maybe it's dangerous.

Yeah.

Okay, this type of thing. So I was invited because I had skills, natural skills for facilitation. So I was invited to help the boss, okay, to, uh, you know, have open discussion with direct reports.

Okay.

So I had to start the discussion, to initiate the questioning around a specific topic. So there was a complex problem to solve with a lot of consequences depending on the decision taken. And so I had to really facilitate open discussion with all these people so that we could have all the pieces of the puzzle on the table, and then the boss could take an intentional decision, not a risky one, right?

Mm-hmm.

So I agreed to go there and to start, you know, the discussion. And then I could— I will never forget that. The boss, you know, was there. I was seated there in front of the people, the direct reports, and I started, you know, to engage the discussion around the topic. People were looking at me and the boss. Okay, and they were looking at the face, you know, of the boss to see if the boss was happy or not with what I was doing. So there was like silence. I was the only one starting to talk and say things. And when they start to see the boss smiling, then they started to talk. Okay, so I had to, to have the courage to go there so that they could really express themselves and feel safe. And so that, that could be a good decision. So, you know, that, that was the start of my, uh, you know, one of the key moments in my career where I said, yeah, you can do that, you know.

I, I'll tell you, you have a lot of strength, um, because I think it's much easier, you know, if you're changing careers and then you go into selling something that's a hard skill or a hard item. Yeah, you can pick it up and say, here, this is how you're going to use it, this blah blah blah blah blah. But you're tackling areas that are not tangible, you know, you can't hold it in your hand, and they have not been widely accepted, and we know how critical they are. So kudos to you.

You know, you would have known me at that time, you would have laughed a lot of time, I think, because I would go to work with very senior people, I would go with my tools, and the tools would be Play-Doh, you know, games, you know, like the kid games, right?

Yes.

I was famous, well known for having senior leaders to draw. You know, so I would have like this big, you know, paperboards.

Yes, yes.

And ask them to draw together the situation, okay, the current situation, and can you draw how you see the future of the company, okay? And so we started to do this drawing. At the beginning, they didn't want to try because, well, what is she asking about, you know? It was rich. I took pictures of that, you know, they were beautiful. Not in terms of the drawing, okay, to be honest, not really important, but they were representing everything that nobody wanted to say. Drawing was okay, collective drawing was okay, saying it in front of the boss was not. So whenever you have something, and this is a tip For those who are listening, whenever you have something sensitive you want people to express, where there is emotion, where people are not sure they could say it, have them draw, because then you will have everything there. And then I will go there, I will ask them to give a title. What is the title of this beautiful picture? Can you— oh, there is a very interesting feature there. What is that?

Ah, whoa.

where are you? What are you doing? They will say everything because we were looking at something external. We were looking at the drawing.

Yeah.

So I remember, you know, sometimes working all day with people. They had this beautiful drawing. The boss didn't— was not there. And the boss came at the end of the day to look at the, the what the people have done. And then people will present. And I will remember that someone will We tried to present something else compared to the drawing, but the boss was really drawn to it, fascinated by the richness of the drawing. So that, that's— these are really key moments where, you know, you try different things and you take risks because people are not really, uh, sometimes used to do that.

Right.

But once you have the courage to enter this new world, so many things, so many good things happen.

Well, and, and also the other things, it, it allows them to express themselves in a different way, something that's sort of abstract, right? But at the same time, it's very in your face. It's very much part of you, but somehow the The psychology of it is, is that's on a piece of paper. It's not going to intrude on me. But it, it's all one, right?

Mm-hmm.

I love the work you're doing. So I hate to say— oh, one last question. Talk about a time when you had the courage to admit that you had to start over. Well, I guess that was done in the fact that you changed from being A chemist to a coach.

I left the lab. I took this difficult decision. It took me 15 years to be recognized as a scientific expert, and I had to decide to take the— yes, a courageous decision. No, this is not useful anymore, so I'm gonna leave that. I didn't forget, but, you know, I'm gonna lose gradually my expertise. To be more like a generalist. So it was, you know—

The fact is that you have created labs within the companies that you're helping, you know, and so you're still mixing and you're still looking to discover and you're helping them to discover at the same time. So you're really doing the same job except that You're not using chemicals, you're using people.

Yes.

Right?

Now, exactly. Yeah, people are laughing. Exactly, they're laughing about that because there is no other way I can explain it. I have a fascination for connecting people and observing what's gonna happen. I think it's so beautiful when you are with a group of people and they say, we want to become a team.

Okay.

It is so fascinating because you stay with them 2 or 3 days, they start as a group, they leave as a team, or at some point something happens. It's magical. You see it in front of your eyes. You see it's like a crystal, you know. Suddenly the way they look at each other, the way they interact is totally different. They are connected. They look the same direction. And I have another story for you if you want.

I love your stories.

I was facilitating this type of work, so, you know, a group wanted to become a team and we were together for 2 days and then I had a, you know, plan, you know, of what we can do as activities and I proposed to them, they were like 15 people, I proposed to separate for 1 hour in 3 different rooms, you know, Like sub-teams, okay? So three teams of five. So I presented the exercise and I say, "Okay, so you are gonna go for this exercise and then we will come back all together and you will debrief." You know what happened? This this they raised their hand and say, "We are a team. We stay together." That was like. I was on top of the world. I was on top of the world.

That is a riot.

Oh wow, it was like, wow, you know.

As they say, the teacher was told.

So that's, that's so nice, you know.

Oh my gosh, what a great, uh, what a great interview. I thank you so much. I couldn't even stop it to give the audience just a taste and then direct them to the entire podcast. I had to run it through. So fantastic. I thank you so much. We're just hitting the mark. Is there any last words that you wanted to say?

It was such a wonderful time together, a lot of fun, and So relaxing. Thank you for that.

It's our pleasure. If anybody in the audience has a last-minute question, key it in quickly, and we'll try to get it in before we close. I'm curious to know, your sons, what do they plan to do?

What do I plan?

What career with your sons?

Ah, what they plan to do in their career? Try to guess. I, I, it's, you know, I— so the first one, the oldest one, uh, just started to work last year. He's working for a bank.

From where?

For a bank, the bank industry.

No way!

Yeah, exactly. So he's really in finance. He's fascinated about numbers and about economy, about history. So really politics, economy, you know, very engaged in a different way through numbers. He has a very powerful memory, so, you know, he likes to play with numbers. That's maybe a little bit of the scientific mindset, right? The second one to science, and what's so— one on science—

Exactly, because I think numbers are more exacting. Right. As a scientist, you're more likely to take the risk. You don't know what's gonna explode when you put those 2 chemicals together. Math, you know, if you're gonna say 2 plus 2, it's gonna equal 4.

And the interesting thing is that is in risk, is assessing risk of investment. Okay. So, you know, so science on one side.

Yes.

Another, another And the second one is an artist. So the second one is finishing study to be a movie— what is the name in English, you know, making movies, right?

Producer.

Yeah, making movies. Yes, exactly. So, you know, science and art. So maybe, you know, as we are closing the discussion here, I think whatever you choose, okay, science or art, Both are very important. These are different perspectives to approach your question, and I like, okay, in whatever we do as coaches, there is a part of science with assessment, for example, or, you know, observing, you know, and making sense of the data. And there is this part of artist or art, like sensing and You know, intuitively, you know, doing different exercise or, you know, asking different questions. And, um, yeah, so yeah, that's, uh—

Well, you are clearly a proud mom.

I am, yes. I am also because I always wanted for my son to find their way, to find their passions. So, you know, we always did different things. On weekends, we were always doing very different things. And I was, you know, feeling that one day they will find something. Suddenly they will say, oh yes, that's me. And this is exactly what happened. So—

Well, good for you. Good for them with, you know, a very strong mom. You know, I'm, I'm a little surprised they didn't start doing what you're doing, but I think I'm in TV mode because last night I watched Abishola, I think it is, and she is a doctor and she wanted her son to be a doctor, but he wants to be a dancer. It was hysterical. Absolutely hysterical. So we have one last question from Coach Jane. Coach Jane, I'm so happy that you participated today and Gordy and the LinkedIn users. Coach Jane said people are the secret sauce that creates a culture that makes a company great, so coaching is an important tool for transformation. Yes, coaching is the spoon there that's making that secret sauce.

Yes, help us to spread coaching around the world that, you know, more people can get access to it.

Absolutely. And so in closing, I want to say thank you so much to Dr. Christine Billy for this great conversation. I also want to remind the listeners that are here to sign up for my LinkedIn newsletter. The May edition was just released, and it is a great read. And you can find us on podcast on your favorite stations. So sign up, subscribe, comment, and I promise I'll get back to you. Thank you again, Christine. I so much appreciate this and hope you'll come back again.

With great pleasure. Thank you so much.

Thank you. Okay, audience, I will see you Next Tuesday for my next great guest. Take care, be strong, have courage, and be successful out there. Bye now.

Bye.