Courage to Leap & Lead with Dr. Dwayne Jenkins - Episode 140

You've got courage to leap, courage to lead.

Be brave and be bold. Let it roar.

Welcome to the Courage to Leap and Lead podcast, where each of our guests share the stories of courage that helped them become powerful leaders. Before we start today's show, please remember to visit courage-consulting.com. Where you can find all the episodes and other excellent resources, all at courage-consulting.com. Now, here's your host, Leadership Courage Coach CB Bowman.

Hello, everybody. It is CB Bowman live. And I hope that you know that the best place for us to talk is through my newsletter. So of course you didn't know this because I hadn't started it yet. I'm just starting one, and I want you to be part of it. So please send me your email address or go to my website and sign up. And that website is courage-consulting.com. Pretty easy to remember, right? Hey, we have a great guest on today. We have a doctor. You know, my mom always said, marry a doctor. Didn't quite work out that way, but he's a good husband. So, but I am talking to a doctor now who has lots of great stories to tell you. About what it's like to fall down, what it's like to pick yourself up, and what it's like to be incredibly successful like he is. So I am so anxious to hear his story. I know a little bit about it because I signed up for his newsletter, right? And as a result, he's donating $5, right, to a great cause. So we'll have him tell you a little bit about it. Dr. Dwayne, welcome.

Thank you so much, CB. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for that kind introduction as well.

Thank you. So first, let's talk about— you're in the oncology space?

I am a GYN oncologist, so I take care of female reproductive tract cancers, and my practice is both the surgical management of those cancers And the medical management, chemotherapy.

Wow. Yeah, my husband just went through chemotherapy. Not fun. Not fun at all.

Yeah.

So tell us, how did you start your career? Because that's a heavy-duty career.

It is a heavy-duty career. I feel like in every way, though, that this career reached out and chose me. I was determined to follow in my family footsteps and build on the legacy of self-employment and entrepreneurship in the Deep South. I got that honest from my dad and my granddad and from his dad. A very wise guidance counselor steered me in the direction of medicine. I told her I was gonna be an engineer and she said, I think that's for you. I think you ought to go and do this summer program at this hospital. And I was there one day and I had this light opening aha kind of moment and I never looked back. Wow.

How did she know? What was her insight? What was her secret insight?

I wish she were still around for me to ask her that question. She's passed away. Mrs. Jenkins was her name, no relation. But I think that, well, people in the people business, right, that, that's, that's the skill that they bring, right, is that they are able to look into people and and give them the gift, you know, of that knowledge. And that's transferred person to person, right? That's, uh, what you do on a day-to-day basis, and that's what you're doing here on this podcast. And so I just think that she was a wise and insightful woman, and she wanted to see me happy. And I think that's, that's all that I can say, you know. But I wish that she were here, you know. I wish that I could ask her that question, but She passed away many years ago.

She'll let you know.

I thank you. Maybe. I think she's letting me know right now, actually.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There are certain people that have that gift of being able to see what we can't see. You know, I had that experience with the work that I'm doing now with courage, because for years people said to me I was very courageous, and I said, please, I'm just surviving, right? And little did I know they were right. I was right also, but I was not viewing it through the lens that would support other people. And now I am. Yeah.

So, so, uh, it was that experience, you know, where there was a formal structured program that she pointed me to. But, you know, the other experiences were very much, um, Well, there are very much provisions, guidance in hand, right? I had a very close cousin who was like a second mother to me to die of a head and neck cancer. And I was her young prince. And I helped to take care of her as a teenager. So these experiences were preparing me for this moment before I knew. When I got to medical school, I just had the right connection, the right relationship to form at the right time. And, and it just clicked, you know, my inner awareness and recognition said, yes, this is— this feels right. This is for me. And I kept going. And it's been— it's still a joy. I still look forward to Being face to face with my patients every day, even as I'm engaged in other more creative activities, you know, to help to round out my experience, because it's a reflection of my gifts and offerings and, and my, my aspirations.

How do you, as a doctor in the oncology field, How do you survive the painful information that you have to give so many people?

Right. So, I, I think that there's 2 approaches to this question, right? One is to give a very nuanced answer. And one is to give a very straightforward answer. But I think the straightforward answer at the end of the day works best. The reason for the nuanced answer is because you don't want to come across as appearing cold, callous, or unfeeling. But the reality is, is that as we— as we mature as professionals, whatever it is that we do, we have to compartmentalize these different skills while still showing up as a whole and present human. And we have to balance this approach of science and compassion. There's this famous painting by Picasso called Ciencia y Caridad, and it's the physician and the nun at the bedside. of an ailing patient.

Mm-hmm.

And that's really at the heart of this. The bottom line is that I've practiced for 20 years, and there's an approach to any difficult conversation that at the end of the day, it really boils down to being aware of what's happening inside of me. Every single day, at every single moment, doing the business of tending to my needs before I get to the patient's bedside, so that when I'm there, I can be present for that patient. I can extend myself, extend my compassion, but make it about the patient and not about me. address and minister to their traumatic experience and not introduce my own trauma into their experience. And so that's a philosophy that is, well, it's a movement that I'm engaged in building. That's what No Hard Conversations is about. You mentioned— Signing up for the Substack community. That's really what it's about. It's about engaging in this dialogue that says there's no way that you can take care of others unless you are rigorously, arduously, ruthlessly even focused on taking care of yourself. Because it's from that full cup overflowing to the saucer that you can then minister to other people. The problem is that so many times we get it exactly backwards, right? And that's what I did for the first half of my career. I was so focused, you know, on the achievement. I was so focused on acquiring and achieving the externalities of success. And I was completely— well, bankrupt is not too strong of a term— inside. I am not trying to paint this photo, this picture of myself, you know, as a martyr or a villain. But the point is that I wasn't tending to my own humanity. I wasn't acknowledging my own humanity in my daily practices and in my approach to my work. And because of that, I self-medicated with alcohol. And because of that, I suffered the consequences of that. I lost a job. Me, the golden child of small town South Carolina. Okay.

I hear you.

Was asked to— was, was, was given an invitation to find employment somewhere else. That was a wake-up call.

I like how you put it.

Yeah. Yeah. That was a wake-up call that I never ever expected to receive in my lifetime because it wasn't consistent with my view of myself. It wasn't consistent with the view that was handed down to me. You know, we talked about that generational legacy, but at the end of the day, It was where I found myself. And so I had to— I had 2 choices: come to terms with where I found myself, or to continue to live in denial. And now looking back in retrospect, the way I frame those choices are, I had the choice to learn to grow in courage, or to die wishing that I had. And so that's my approach to these fear situations, to these shame situations today, you know, because of the knowledge and the wisdom and the skills that I've learned recovering from that failure. So it's a long answer, and it ended up being fairly nuanced. But, you know, I hope it answers the question.

Such a valuable answer that we can end the show now. I, I'm speechless because I'm not quite sure where to continue the dialogue.

Wow.

I have to digest this.

Take your time. I have nothing else on my calendar today.

Wow.

Take as long as you want.

I think the first thing is, how do you separate? How do you identify these compartments? Okay, that seems to be the easier of the task. But then how do you go about putting the right things in the right box at the right time?

Yes. Well, let me repackage one of those concepts. So out of necessity, we have to speak of ourselves as siloed beings, right? We speak of ourselves as mind, body, and spirit. That's out of necessity, right? We have to have some construct in which to package, contain this dimension of our experience, of our beingness, right? But in lockstep with that is this fundamental understanding that we didn't come into this plane of existence, if you will, into this world. We did not come from my mother's womb. You know, we're supporting and celebrating maternal health, actually all month long. All right. This week we're focused on Black women's maternal health, but we didn't come from our mother's wombs as siloed beings. Oh, here's my mind. Oh, here's my body. Oh, here's my spirit.

Oh, okay.

We had one spectrum of experience. And then out of necessity, we had to learn these constructs. We call some of them language. We call some of them Religion, we call some of them family structure, and they are different all over the world, and they have been different throughout time. But at the end of the day, the point is that we take these constructs, we make them our own. The constructs don't make us what we are. Okay, so to answer your question specifically, I have to show up as the whole person every time. Which means that if I am sitting in this chair right here, all right, we're going to pull back the layers a little bit. All right, so I, I, I swapped out my chair because I was sitting here and I was like, oh my God, I'm kind of feeling like a schoolboy. And I don't want to— I don't—

You're right.

I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't want to— I don't want to deliver that enemy— that energy to the guests. Because I know who I'm sitting in this seat trying to reach. I know the reason why I came on this podcast.

Tell us why.

I know because at the end of the day, I know the messages that got me from that point of failure to here. And I know that there's tons of people who look like me, who feel like me, who have that same small town experience. who may or may not be queer, but who feel other, who may or may not have a grandfather that looked them in the eye and said, you have to be true to yourself, when I came out as gay, but who have other family members who are not as supportive. Do you hear what I'm saying? So—

Yes.

Hey, that's the person that I'm trying to strengthen, and I didn't want that message to be camouflaged. by my discomfort by sitting in the wrong chair. So I said, hey, you know what, let's go and swap the chairs out so I can be here and fully present with you, and by extension, here and fully present with the person that I'm seeking to minister to. And it's the same thing on a daily basis with patients. I am notorious.

We know that now. Notorious for which, though?

You can fill in the blank there many, many, many, many ways. It is so much better for me to spend a few extra minutes in bed.

Okay, okay, I hate to cut, but go back, because when I saw that on your bio, I said, surgeon athlete? What does that mean? Yep.

So it really is at the heart of all of these things, uh, that we're talking about here, showing up for the patient. What it means is that I have to recognize that there is a conditioning process here that is required of me as a surgeon. There's a conditioning process here that's required of me as a caregiver, as someone who ministers to others. And it's just as true for me as a physician as it is for the wife caring for her chronically ill husband, the mother caring for her chronically ill child. I have to keep myself in a place of wholeness, of fitness, so that I can deliver what I am uniquely positioned and gifted to do to my patients. And if I don't approach it with the same mindset as an athlete— an athlete knows I got to get enough sleep, I got to not put things in my body that are going to take away from my ability to perform at my peak conditioning, I got to have good people around me that will keep my mindset healthy and focused and balanced. I have to put food in my body that will fuel this machine. You get what I'm saying. So there are practical steps that I take on a daily basis that keep me here so that I can be effective at the bedside of the patient. And if that means sleeping a few extra minutes so that I don't show up cranky, groggy, irritated, and maybe I'm not as focused when I'm cutting. Maybe I'm not as kind and compassionate and patient when my patient is asking me questions. That's a much better trade-off in my mind. I'd much rather be a few minutes late, but together and centered and focused. And that's the approach that I take to my work. And, and my patients don't complain about it.

Because they know that when I come in the door and sit down in front of them, I'm exactly that— there in front of them, with them. And yes, the diagnosis, the disease, is what's brought us together, but it's that whole person sitting across from me that I'm there for. And as much as that person is willing to engage as a whole person, I'm here for that. You know, I'm so centered on your conversation.

Yes.

And my mind is spinning at the same time.

Yes.

Because I'm thinking about what we've just gone through.

Yeah.

And my husband's doctor, I was measuring him based upon what you just said.

Yeah.

And it's very interesting because he came highly recommended to us by somebody we totally respect. And I didn't feel a connection with him at all. And I sat back and I said to myself, why is this? I mean, I was at the point to say to my husband, let's change doctors.

Right? Yeah.

And then I said to myself, well, you know, CB, cut this guy a slack, some slack, because he has to deliver these messages day in and day out.

Yeah.

So he's built up some sort of wall that works for him.

Well—

That's the operative word, works for him.

Yeah.

It didn't work for us.

Yeah.

And so I casually mentioned it to him at the advice of another doctor. And he just smiled. But the next time when, you know, we had gone through the chemo and we had to do the— then the body scan again, and I did all my research on Google and what that meant, because nowadays you get the Information as fast as the doctor, and I couldn't understand why he was so cavalier about the results. Meantime, I'm hyperventilating, right? Based on Google.

Yeah.

And so we we got in, and he gave us his results, and he said, "This is really good news," and blah blah blah blah blah blah. And I'm sitting there just staring, and finally I said to him. Well, I don't understand how you're giving us this news. Because based on Google— He had the biggest smile on his face ever. And he just looked at me, he grinned, and he said, please stop reading Google. Please stop Googling. Finally gotcha. And it was like the ice was broken, but it took that much. It took Google to get this guy to smile.

So how's your husband doing now?

He's good. He's good. Thank you for asking. Yeah. Good. He's back to his irritating self.

And you're still with the doctor?

Yes. Yeah.

Good.

Yeah.

See, this is a many-pronged, well, dilemma, problem even, if you will. And it's the reason why— it's the reason why I'm doing all the things that I'm doing. Because yes, patients are very often frustrated. But guess what? Physicians are frustrated too.

Yeah.

Because physicians increasingly are items on a budget, line items on a budget, or they are viewed as robotic employees who are pushed to drive more widgets through the assembly line per unit of time. I'm not being crass when I say that. I think you get exactly what I'm saying. And it's a conversation that is— I mean, you can pick up the New York Times. There's half a dozen articles in the last month alone, op-eds about this very thing. And they're now even using a term that typically is applied to people with chronic, non-curable illnesses to describe what physicians feel relative to the healthcare system that they are engaged in, demoralization syndrome. Because they feel like they are engaged in a process that requires them to approach the patient in ways that's not consistent with why they came into medicine in the first place. And so there's increasingly these pressures that pull us further and further away from the patient. So certainly we have to empathize with that physician and physicians everywhere But the solution is what I'm trying to be about, right?

Yes, I hear you.

But at the end of the day, my belief is that as much as I can offer tools that can empower individual patients and physicians to achieve this surgical athlete, kind of approach. And as much as I can strip away the roadblocks, the things that come between the patient and the physician, for those patients and physicians who are inclined. So I'm developing this model, which, for lack of a better term, is we work for physicians. It's really ultimately desires to be a concierge-type integrative medicine space for physicians, practitioners of all types. It doesn't matter whether they are cancer physicians, dermatologists, primary care physicians, pediatricians. If they want more of a mind-body approach to their patients, I want to give them the space and the tools to do that. And so this is the big picture for Dr. Dwayne. This is why I'm doing all the things that I'm doing, because this is the impact that I want to have on the system. Because I think that we have to give physicians the ability to reclaim the leadership role in the healthcare dynamic. Right now it belongs to policymakers. Right now it belongs to third-party payers. Right now it belongs to bureaucrats. And there's always gonna be some element of that with us, but it doesn't mean that we can't try to shape the conversation, morph the dialogue, equip the individual players. patients and physicians so that they'll have more leverage in these negotiations with these other stakeholders. And so that's what Rx Faith is about, and, um, that's what the next 5 to 7 years of my life is, is about as well.

Um, well, you have a tremendous task ahead of you, which is so needed. Uh, I'll raise my hand to help because What we're talking about is doctors to have the courage to speak up, not only to the system, but to speak up to their patients.

Oh, yeah.

I think that doctors realize that the patients put them In the place of God. And we're— because we're trusting them with our lives. And we're trusting them with our emotions.

Mm-hmm.

To make them more human may be more dangerous for us. I don't have the answer. But I will tell you, My doctor, who I absolutely adore—he's a brilliant diagnostician. He's a general doctor. Said to—I mean, this is a doctor who was going on vacation at the time that my husband was diagnosed and called us from the airport to see how he was doing. Who does that?

Right?

When he told us he was moving to open a new facility because this medical facility, the entire thing was sold. And he said, sadly, this is only going to give us 20 minutes a patient. Now I know when I see him, it's a solid 40 minutes. And I said, Doc, you need to push back. But the fact is, I didn't think about it at the time. I have the power to push back too. Because while some patients need 10 minutes, other people need 20, I need 40 because I'm very meticulous. I write down all my issues. You know, and I want everyone addressed. And I may not remember a darn thing when I walk out the door, but I will feel better.

I understand. Yeah.

So I would love for— to be part of a new regime. Yeah. Where doctors are not getting pushed by the pharmaceuticals and not getting pushed by the hospital, and they're not getting pushed by their patients because the patients don't understand what they're going through.

Yeah.

Because the patients are so centered in their health, which makes sense. But in a way, it's a little selfish because we don't recognize that the doctor's health is also there. The reason why my doctor changed is to be closer to where he lives so he could give better care. So yeah, I'm with you all the way. All the way.

Well, and The courage to do all of those things without question is needed. But in my view, what requires more courage is the courage to say those things to yourself.

Yeah.

As a physician and as a patient, because as much as it's fabulous that your doctor calls you from the airport, Over here in my doctor and my surgeon athlete mind, I'm thinking, now, if I were his coach and his mentor, I'd be making sure that he had boundaries that he was setting around his own personal life, because those boundaries are him acknowledging his own humanity. And that is the point right there. Right? So in order for us to most effectively— this is the whole reason why you're doing this podcast. All right. It's the whole reason because my experience as a human strengthens another's experience as a human. And so if we can see each other as human and human before we see each other as doctor and patient, well then the therapeutic ability is going to be exponentially increased, right? Exponentially.

You know, I hear you, and I agree with you. And I think in all fairness, in all transparency, he was leaving for 3 weeks on vacation. So I understood that move. We had been with him for like 4 years.

And it's not a criticism.

No, I know. I know. That's why I'm supporting you in what you're saying. I think it's all relative, right? Yeah. You know, when you develop a relationship with your patients, it's, it's, as you're saying, it's making the right move for both. Yeah. Right. And so his right mood is knowing the mental strength of his patient at that time, that particular time. Before he could go and rest completely.

Yeah.

For three weeks visiting his mom. Yeah. So I agree with you, and and that's where that's where the issue is: is that we as the patient don't understand, don't can't can't cognitively make informed decisions. because we don't know the, the other side. We can't manage our expectations because we don't know the other side. And I, I think your ultimate goal, correct me if I'm wrong, is to inform everybody.

It's definitely to inform, but it's mostly to empower and to equip because, well, there's two, there's multiple things, but I think that the two most important are that Everyone has different priorities and people all choose differently. So there's another brilliant article just written about this, how patients are choosing less aggressive care because they are prioritizing quality of life.

Yeah.

Very much able to make these decisions, right? And what it boils down to In my view, for the patient and for the physician, is their ability to cultivate self-awareness. You use that word mental, you use that word cognitive. And I was thinking, this is a perfect lead-in into meditation because meditation is really at the core of everything that I'm talking about here.

Mm-hmm.

So that ability to show up at the bedside present and focused, That ability to dissect lymph nodes off of the great vessels in the pelvis, you know, with care and precision and speed. That ability to do that is supercharged because I have a disciplined meditation practice.

Mm-hmm.

Because what that meditation practice does for me is increases my ability to be present and aware. so that I can see when I'm getting a little off beam, when I'm sitting with my patient, I can inquire with myself, now, what does that tell me about me in this moment? And I can dissect it right there while I'm listening to the patient. You know, I can do that.

Mm-hmm.

And so this is the point that there's this muscle that I want to convince people is worth their while to flex. And it's whether they're people of faith or not. It really is not about any tribe that you're a member of other than being a part of the human tribe.

Hmm.

This muscle can help us to do all the things that we do much more effectively. And most importantly, it can help us to minister to other people more effectively because we're taking care of ourselves more effectively. That really is the core message right there of every platform that I'm putting my time and treasure into these days. It's about real clear on what you want for yourself, and then developing the self-awareness muscle so that you can choice by choice move in the direction of achieving it.

Yoga is the answer to moving from failure to success.

I think that any practice that centers you in your body that allows you to compassionately interrogate the things that you feel in your being, whether they're in your mind, your spirit, your body, whatever discipline that is that resonates with you. Yes, it's the key. So for some people, that is Focused meditation, sitting quietly, offering no resistance to thoughts that come into their mind, vocalizations that they might make, movements that they might make. That's my approach. For other people, it's a guided meditation. For other people, it's walking, it's exercising in a gym, it's yoga. It's Pilates, which I'm resuming tomorrow because my body is telling me, oh, it's time for you to get back to Pilates. I achieve a very meditative flow state when I'm doing Pilates, and I move through the world with much more centering and grace. And so because of COVID I got away from it, and now my body is telling me it's time to get back. And so I called my Pilates instructor. She said, yes, I'm so happy that you're back. So I think that whatever form you choose, desire to do your cognitive mental workout in, I'm all for it. The, the, the real important thing is just that you have a disciplined daily practice. Some people just get up in the morning and sit and listen to the birds. And they don't do anything until they achieve that moment of recognition. Okay, I hear you. It's time to move out into the world. And so that's really what it's about.

You know, I hate to end this. So we don't have to. My dear audience, we're gonna stop right now. But guess what? I'm gonna do part 2.

Yeah.

Of this interview. So stay tuned. Come back next week to listen to part 2 of my interview with Dr. Dwayne. Dr. Dwayne, will you come back for part 2?

Absolutely. I will come back whenever you want me. You— that's my pledge to you because, um, I really appreciate you and I see you and you said yes. When you had no reason to other than, oh, I think I'd like to support this person. So absolutely.

Wonderful audience. With a fair toss, please come back. This is CB Live. See you then. Bye, Dr. Dwayne.

Bye, CB. Thanks again.