Episode V: CB Bowman LIVE: Challenges of the C-Suite

Hello everyone, how are you? This is CB Bowman live on Challenges of the C-Suite. And everyone, you'll have to forgive me if I sneeze and, well, sniffle today because the Colorado fires are affecting our beautiful air here. So forgive me if I do human being things. So with that said, I want to introduce one of my more famous guests, Jordan Goldwitz. Jordan, I must have full disclosure, is a member of my organization called the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches. And Jordan is a master coach. So I'm so excited to have him here. He's also a great author, just released a fabulous book, which we'll talk about.

Thank you.

But I wanted to find out, let the audience know a little bit about yourself, Jordan. And I know you're the wrong person to ask. I really should be asking Deborah, your wife, because—

Not right now. Not how she was upset with me a little while ago.

Oh, do tell. What did you do wrong? This is just a fireside chat, a sofa chat between us.

Yeah. So I have this tendency to, after I'm done washing my hands in the bathroom, I have this tendency to not shut this, this, this, the faucet off completely, and so it dribbles. And Deborah is a, uh, highly environmental— she's a highly environmental person, and it drives her crazy when I waste water.

Well, uh, not to also mention your water bill goes up, right?

This is true.

Yeah, maybe she has to put that in terms of not the environment, but in terms of Well, you know, being the New Yorker that I am from a loud family, what—

it doesn't matter what term she puts it in. It's just, it's just important that she makes it loud and reprimanding.

Okay, I think you've given your clients some suggestions in working with you.

You have to be direct or else I don't hear it.

I just see a note from one of our colleagues, one of our professional family. Holly Teska. She says, oh my gosh, I finally figured out how to get on live. Yay. Good to see you guys. I'm so glad you're able to join us, Holly, so you can help me give Jordan a hard time.

Sounds good. I feel like I'm home.

Well, first of all, Jordan, I can't see your book in back of you because you moved in front of it. So can you just hold it up for everyone to see?

Oh, sure. Thank you.

Over. Good. So the name of it is Workplace Warrior. Is there a subtitle?

The subtitle is People Skills for the No Bullshit Executive.

Okay. All right. Well, we are definitely going to talk about this. And she says, as Holly says, anytime. So glad. Listen, anyone who's here, please join us on the chat because I can see you all then. So especially members of our professional family. That's true.

The whole group is going to call in and give me a hard time. I can see it coming.

Well, we call it family for a good reason. This is true.

This is true.

So, Jordan, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Well, I was born and raised in a city housing project in New York City that was built for returning World War II veterans.

So I grew up among the projects, right?

Thank you. Well, you know, and interestingly enough, I— sometimes when you say the projects now, people think— you ever see the movie Fort Apache: The Bronx?

Yes.

Yeah, it wasn't Fort Apache: The Bronx. I managed to go my, my whole childhood getting raised, and the only fight I had was when, for no reason at all, I decided to push this other person who pushed me back. But—

Oh, okay. And you were what age then?

I must have been 7 or 8.

Oh, okay. Yeah.

So, yeah, and I guess my major claim to fame about that is Kareem Abdul-Jabbar grew up in my building.

Holy cow.

Wow. He was Big Louie. He's 3 or 4 years older than I am. He would not know me. And but one time I played on his stickball team. So that's—

Who won?

I have no recollection.

We wanted the inside scoop here. No, I—

It wasn't important, you know. It was— we were playing in a little playground in the middle of the projects. And what if you hit— one of the buildings was sort of opposite, and if you hit above the second floor of the building with the rubber ball we were playing with, it was a home run. If you hit the building below that, it was a double. If it got by the person who was in the grass in front of the building— I'm sorry, it was a triple. Grass in front of the other building, uh, behind the person who was in the grass, it was a double, and in front of him was a single. And because I was one of the little kids, they put me on first base because I was never going to get, you know, I was never going to be part of the play.

Well, this reminds me of that commercial, and I don't remember, 2 basketball players are in it. And so one hits it in the, in the thing, you know, that circle thing. And then the other one says, I could do better. And he hits it over the building. And the other one says, I could do better. And it just keeps getting farther and farther away.

Absolutely.

So, okay, so tell us, other than the projects, tell us a little bit more. Give us some juicy stuff.

All right, so I grew up in a very loud New York family that was loud by even New York standards. And, um, I don't know, juicy stuff— we were all crazy. I mean, part of my goal in life is to, is to, uh, end the craziness. So a lot of yelling at each other. I remember coming down the hall one night with my friend, and I lived on the 9th floor, and we're walking down the hall and he says, I don't think we should go in. I said, why not? He said, because your parents are fighting. And I could hear them. My mother's going, Howard! My father's yelling back, nah, they're talking to each other.

That sounds like my husband's family. So I don't know that it's, it's, you know, Special for a Jewish family. I hear this about all families.

It's real ethnic. I mean, you know, the Irish Catholic families, the Italian families, the Black families, you know, everybody in the projects was loud with each other.

Yeah, yeah.

I think it's ethnic.

Yeah. And you know what? It was all done with a loving spirit and it got all the angst out, right?

Right. Well, it was just how we talked to each other. You know, it didn't seem— until I moved to St. Louis and I started getting feedback about, you know, how obnoxious I am. I, I, you know, it was just cultural. That's all I can tell you. I was just talking the language that everybody else talked.

Now, obnoxious, let's define that. First of all, let's say hi to Yazar, who, uh, just dialed in from Pakistan.

Wow. Yeah. Wow.

Um, okay, obnoxious. Define obnoxious, because we always think of us Obnoxious is people we don't want to be around.

Well, that's a word that I use. I was not called obnoxious. I certainly was experienced as abrasive, and certainly in St. Louis. Then when I became the Chief Operating Officer of a little healthcare company out here, I got feedback that I was experienced as tactless and undiplomatic. I never got feedback that I was a bully. But it's possible they just didn't want to tell me that because people who are bullies often don't get bullied. But I don't think I was, but I certainly know that I was experienced as tactless and disrespectful.

So let me ask you, do you think that you would have been experienced the same if you displayed the same behavior in New York?

Well, my, my friends in New York, and when I go back there, they think I've lost my edge.

Sorry, that's my computer talking.

They, they think I've lost my edge, but yes, I do. I think my family was, as I said, my family was loud and direct even by New York standards.

So, but I would have gotten less, uh, reaction, I think, in New York than So let me ask you, can you give us a specific situation where you were perceived as loud and obnoxious or what have you, and then give us that same scenario in the new you?

Oh my gosh.

Calm down. I'd like to ask the tough questions.

So it's going to be a little hard for me to come up with an actual scenario. But let me give you a suggestion or a general example. So my tendency is when I'm listening to something, having a discussion with someone, and this is something that I do when I work with executives who get experienced as abrasive, the tendency is we want to be helpful, either that or we're curious and analytic. So somebody will say something and we'll think about, yeah, but. And, uh, so the feedback I've gotten from you at times, as a matter of fact—

I plead innocent. Okay.

Is that rather than doing that, is to say something like, you know, is to first of all listen for what's right in what they're saying, what's admirable in what they're saying. And what the piece that I've come up with myself is to, when I have a different opinion or a different perspective, to say something like, you know, I wouldn't be doing my job supporting you if I didn't give you— let you know I have another opinion. Do you want to hear it? And so I do a lot of asking for permission before I tell people that I have another view of what they're telling me. And also in my family, nobody ever asked whether or not you wanted feedback at all. So, so—

Oh, I don't think that was a tradition.

No. You know what you should do, Jordan?

Yes.

So I have that wired in my brain as well. So even when I'm coaching, but certainly socially and in networking and all of that, I have really learned to say, how can I be helpful? Or would you like to hear another perspective? I ask permission. There's a variety of ways to do it. But I've really— and I would say that I've been practicing it now for 20 years since I got fired, and, uh, which is another good story.

Yes.

But, um, and I, I, you know, I'd say I'm about 98% there, although, as you know from the meeting I was in the other day with, with you on the association, and you suggested to me that I, um, be a little bit less direct with my alternative perspectives. And I must say, being a New Yorker, CB, or an East Coaster, CB, you were extremely direct with me about that. You didn't ask me whether I wanted any feedback.

Well, that's not being an East Coaster. That's taking advantage of a friendship.

Ah, okay.

And you know, so I have to tell you, Jordan, whenever you say to me, CB, I wouldn't be doing my job, I think, oh shit, excuse me, um, here he comes. Oh my God, I've gotta listen to this again. He may be wrong, but I have to listen to the whole thing to see if there's any nuggets of— yeah, okay. He's right. Yeah, I do practice what I preach sometimes. Sometimes.

Well, and you've also told me to stop, stop it and just tell you. So yeah, let's get to the point and stop all of this polite stuff.

Well, that's— now that comes from New York to New York. So let's wait. Jordan, we have a question. I don't know that it's really related, but it's from Yazar. He says, Jordan, how did you find Both of your roles as a COO and then as a coach, which role do you prefer, COO or coach?

Thank you for asking. That's a great question. Right at the moment, I much prefer coach. Back in those days, I was climbing up the ladder. I was working for an employee assistance program in St. Louis where I was the director. I can't even remember what I was the director of, what the title was, but it was a national organization. And I was in charge of the clinicians who did coaching, who did clinical work for the EAP. And it was a big deal to me to be an executive. So, you know, my ego was wanting to drive up the ladder. So when I got an opportunity to move out to San Diego from St. Louis, to be the Chief Operating Officer of this little EAP. 4 employees who reported to me. I reported to the owners. And there was a CFO who reported to the owners. That was a big deal to be called COO. Right now, I love being an executive coach and would not want to have the stress and pain of Being in an operations position again.

Yeah. Is this because of COVID or—

Oh, no, no, no, no. This is a decision I made 3 or 4 years ago that I really, you know, it took me a long time to figure out what really provides satisfaction for me as a human being. And it really is providing a positive impact on people's lives. So, you know, I can have a miserable day going on, and if I meet with an executive or a friend and I say something that seems to make a difference in their life in a positive way, I hang up, I feel fulfilled, and, you know, it changes the whole day. So that really— that's really what it's about.

So Holly says, Jordan, I'm glad I met the current you. You are a kind, diplomatic leader and coach.

Oh, oh, she's so sweet.

I could tell who's your bestie.

Well, Holly's also on the East Coast, remember?

Oh, that's true. That's true. And Holly is a wonderful, tough broad. I adore her. Yeah.

And I, and I couldn't say that.

No, you couldn't. I'm always on the edge of what I say because I feel like I'm old enough. I've earned the right to say it.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

So, Jordan, I want to talk a little bit about your book. And, you know, of course, the name of the program, Challenges of the C-suite. So my standard question to ask you is, what do you see are the biggest challenges of people in the C-suite? And of course, one of them— and Holly just said, no, I'm in Milwaukee. Oh, now she's in Milwaukee. OK. So going back to my question, so now that you see COVID-19—

Mm-hmm.

And your book does address one of the biggest challenges for people in the C-suite. And that is that warrior instinct and deliverance.

Yes.

And but let's, let's hold that aside and let's talk about 2 other challenges that you see for right now or pre-COVID. And actually, you know what, we have a couple of pandemics going on. So we've got the social justice, we've got, you know, the COVID-19 and the environment with the wildfires. Everything is firing up all the neurons.

Yes.

So what do you see besides your— the topic of your book as being things that are really challenging leaders today?

Yeah, so, you know, it really is an extension of what I talked about, which is— and it's a paradox, really. It's 2 conflicting messages which are both true. One of the messages is that it really is important for people to feel part of things, to feel respected. There is no excuse for demeaning, disrespectful behavior. On the other hand, we need people who drive results. What we don't talk about in the workplace is that 20% of the workforce has a personality disorder.

Huh.

And a large percentage of the workforce comes from families where it wasn't okay to say anything directly and certainly not to express anger. So, one of the things is that there's a large— I believe that there's a large component of what is experienced as abrasive or disrespectful that is really cultural. It has to do with what ethnic background do you come from? I do think that people of various ethnic backgrounds tend to be experienced as more abrasive. Now—

Wait, wait, Jordan. You're talking about your book, so we want to come to that later.

Yeah.

I want to know, besides your book, what other challenges are you seeing that we have?

Given that paradox, that's the underlying challenge that goes forward.

Okay.

And so right now, during times of crisis, and certainly during times of these virtual meetings, maintaining human contact is really even more important than it was prior to COVID. So you have to balance those 2 things. So, you know, there are a lot of executives out there who are, you know, I don't see why we should be personal, let's get the job done, who need to learn that you need to call people up, ask them how they're doing, make a personal connection. Certainly, if you're in LinkedIn— not LinkedIn meetings, Zoom meetings— it's helpful to start off the meeting where everybody gets to say, hey, this is how I'm doing. Do you need any help from anyone else? And so there's more work needs to go into that. Also, you know, given the social justice issues and several other issues that are going on, you know, Pete, there's just a lot of, I would say, justifiable sensitivity out there. And, you know, it's like walking on eggshells for a lot of people. So that would be for me What I'm seeing. Would you add to that anything?

Yeah, I would, but I want to focus on you. That was a good trick, Jordan. But I'm on top of it. And I want to discuss these in a little bit more detail. The concept of asking employees how you're doing, I like that. And I'm always concerned about that in terms of our laws of protecting privacy.

Yes.

You know, not going too far sexually. harassment. Now, I feel like executives and people in general are caught between a rock and a hard place.

Yes.

You want to ask how somebody is doing, especially in this day and age where we're facing things that we've never been faced with before, as a society, as people in general. And yet, The law says, uh-uh, don't go there. So, and I know I've talked about this before. The other thing is now Zoom allows you to take a personal look into the lives of how people live.

Yes.

Right in their living room, dining room, or as we just heard, sadly, bedroom.

Yes.

How do we balance all that?

Well, it's a balancing act. I am not, by the way, I'm not an attorney, and I'm certainly not a currently up-to-date HR professional. I'm not 100% sure, are you, whether or not just saying, how are you doing, begins bordering on illegal? What is your understanding of that?

You know what, I think— and I'm not either a legal or HR person— but it seems to me that if you're in a Zoom meeting and you're asking it as a general question, yeah, where people can decide whether or not they want to volunteer and to the extent that they want to volunteer, it might be okay. Certainly if somebody from HR is listening in and or a lawyer is listening, and I'd love to know your thoughts on this.

Yeah.

And I think maybe then the second part of that is how deep would you go? Now, I hadn't even thought about this before, but what if, more to your field, somebody is in your office and they get on and they say— so you ask the general question, how you doing, everybody? And somebody says, I'm so depressed. I just, I don't, I can't handle it anymore.

Okay.

Where is your responsibility as an employee then? And where is your responsibility as a coworker?

Okay, so, and as their manager, I'm assuming. So nobody has ever asked me this question before. So I'm making it up. And I certainly hope we have some HR and legal professionals out there to come in and and fill in. But my thinking out loud response to that would be to say, oh, wow, I'm sorry. Is there any way I can be helpful? Or is there anything you need from me?

Yeah, I don't know. I think I'm kind of worried about those responses. Because— and I don't have an answer.

Yeah.

Because then what happens if the person takes the step that we don't even want to think about, how, how much are you obligated for not reporting this? How much are colleagues responsible for not reporting this?

Reporting that somebody said they're depressed?

Extremely depressed.

Extremely depressed.

Okay, Holly. Holly is saying, uh, and Holly is a great person to support us in this. She comes out of leading a group of coaches for an outplacement firm. She said there is a polarity between respecting privacy and taking an interest in people. I don't believe there is a silver bullet to answering the situation. Yeah.

Yeah, that's my feel, that you have to use your intuition about what's okay and what's not okay.

Yeah. Yeah. So I do think that there—

So let me just, let me take this somewhere else for a second. Back in the days when I was in the employee assistance program, and I was coaching managers who had to give negative feedback or fire people. And again, it's been a long time. So I'm blocking a little bit on the on the exact language. But if very often when a manager is coaching someone who doesn't want to perform, the person gives them excuses like, well, my kid got arrested, or me and my wife are separated, etc. And because most managers and executives don't want to be hitting people over the head when they're going through a hard time, they tend to shift into trying to be coach. So, one of the things we did was when we coached people on how to give them the negative feedback, and I do training on this today. It's amazing that people still evaluate themselves when they let somebody know, you're behaving in this way, we're getting complaints, and I wouldn't be doing my job supporting you in your success if I didn't let you know this could lead to trouble in your career, or it could lead to termination or discipline or whatever it is in a very direct way. They don't know what to do when the employee starts saying, well, but it's not that bad. And I told you I'm having a really difficult time, and et cetera, et cetera. And so, what we used to coach people to do is say something like, if what's going on is that in your personal life, there are personal problems that are so serious that they're causing these things here at work, I want to remind you that we have an employee assistance program.

Mm-hmm.

Free and it's confidential and etc. If you don't have an employee assistance program, they could say, you know, we have, we have a healthcare program. Maybe you should, you know, seek some counseling. And if the person responds to that as, you're saying there's something wrong with me? The reaction to that would be something like, no, you've let me know that you've had a personal problem. I'm concerned about you. I just want to let you know there's resources, but I'm not your coach. I don't want to get in, you know, That kind of conversation. And in the same way, and again, I want to highlight, I am not an attorney. I am not an HR person. I am just working on, from what I know, from listening to attorneys and HR people, I'm wondering whether it would be okay to say, if somebody says, I'm really, really depressed, is to say, you know, I'm concerned about you. Is, you know, is there any danger? You know, are you feeling suicidal? That would be my sense. If they say, oh no, okay, well, I'm concerned. I can't imagine— well, I can imagine that you could get in trouble for that. So this is a good conversation. And I want to highlight again for our audience that I am not giving a legal or HR opinion. I'm just talking as a former COO and also as an executive coach.

Yeah, I think that the advice that you're giving is interesting. Then it also brings into question, are you doing this in front of other employees? They could have announced their feelings in front of other employees. Then the question becomes, why don't we take this offline? Why don't I reach out to you after?

Sure, exactly.

It's not in the here and now.

I was assuming that it came in an individual conversation.

Right, right. But, and then the other question is, if you are a small employee, 2, 3 people, less than 10, you don't have an EAP, you don't have a health system.

Yeah.

Where do you take it then? Let's say you have 5 employees.

Yes.

Riding right under the radar screen of many things. Legally or HR-wise, right?

Right.

You might even have an outsourced HR function, right? Which there are many of that support small businesses, right? So let's take it down a notch in terms of numbers. Is your recommendation the same or different, or what do you think?

Well, I want to be clear, I'm not making a recommendation. I am not in a position to do that. I am really thinking with you out loud. As an EAP professional, we were hired by the human resources department. And it was very often we would come across situations with people who, with managers, for instance, who had employees who were doing some of those borderline things where you're either concerned about them hurting themselves, but perhaps even being violent. And a whole variety of other things about you're just concerned about them. So I have about 15 years of experience consulting with HR in the company, often anonymously, about this is the situation I'm getting, how would you like me to handle it? So To some degree, my responses are informed by that. However, I want to again say, that's been a long time since I've done that. I am not a current HR professional and I am not an attorney. You're getting my sense here and for what that's worth.

I'm such a little devil. I took you down a line that we didn't see coming. But at the same time—

It's a good conversation though.

Good conversation. And I love having these, you know, let's sit in the living room kind of conversations because I think they're more meaningful than planned script. It's— we're talking about real life here. And a young lady writes in, Dana, I believe is how you pronounce her name. And she says, in some industries, comma, finance, paren, financial sector, close paren, EAPs are standard. I think it's a necessary corporate social responsibility to offer those outsourced services. I wonder about cost. Well, you know, again, depending upon the size of the company, I think that these outsourcing companies base their pricing on the size of the company. And certainly you have to do your research to find—

Sure.

One that fits, you know, your values, your standards, and your price tag.

Yeah. So, EAPs actually— I am no longer in the industry, but I'll speak a little bit for the industry. EAPs actually provide benefit for both the employer in terms of providing some safety, a safety net for people and support for people, as well as for the people involved. And they also have financial benefit because what happens with EAPs is if you've got a problem, And the EAP is promoted as for normal problems in living. You don't, you know, and that's how they promote them, normal problems in living. If you just need somebody to talk to, you're talking to a clinician on the other end, but it's easier for people to call earlier in the process of something that's serious so that it doesn't threaten them, it doesn't threaten their family, and ultimately it doesn't start threatening spreading through work. It's hard to do the cost-benefit analysis of this because there's so many factors, but it's been generally agreed upon over the years that if somebody has, for instance, a drug and alcohol problem and it shows up as a, I'm coming in late, or, I'm having fights with my partner or spouse, and they decide to call up for that, and in the process of that, they're asked some questions about it, they're more likely to get help, you know, a year earlier than they would if they waited until it got so bad that everybody recognized that they have a drug and alcohol problem. And that saves the company money. It's also beneficial for the employee. So, and EAPs are remarkably inexpensive these days. So.

I think that probably today EAPs are I'm just going to say, I think that they may be more in tune and more focused on the employee than they might have been yesteryear. But having said that, I don't think that EAPs can handle all situations like calling in about social, you know, social justice. So I think we want to be clear about that.

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. So, by the way, what, you know, a good EAP person, when they hear about that, would offer to perhaps call the HR person directly with an anonymous, I'm hearing this. How would you require, you know, how would you expect my client to respond? Or if the client gave permission, they might use the client's name. But one of the nice things about— I was once In a situation where I got a call from a very large electronics company from their union rep who said, we are going to do X because the company is going after EAP records that are personal and blah, blah, blah. So, I called up the guy who is in charge of the EAP, and I said, you know, I'm hearing this. Is that true? And I had, you know, I worked out exactly what I was going to say with the union rep.

Mm-hmm.

And the guy said, I have no idea what he's talking about, and we're not doing that. And I called the union rep back, and the union rep— I said to the union rep, this is what he said. And the union rep was silent for a second and said, you know, I trust him. If he says that, I trust him. We're going to drop it.

Wow.

And so, you know, so, so having somebody who's a third party who respects the confidentiality of both And in many ways, by the way, that's an executive coach too. One of the things executive coaches do is meet with— well, not all executive coaches, but I always want to meet with the boss and find out what are the strengths and weaknesses. And almost 100% of the time, there are things that the boss has not told the employee that they need to improve. Particularly if there are issues with abrasiveness or conflict avoidance or whatever, because the boss may be conflict avoidant. So in the process of doing that, I usually have a meeting with the boss and the employee where the boss tells the employee in front of me what it is that are the strengths, what it is that they would like to see them get out of executive coaching. And I have permission for both to ask questions and dig around. And 100% of the time, both of them hear something that they didn't know before that really helps. And so it's the same thing. It's the same thing with the EAPs is that you get an outside third party who's not invested. You hear stuff that you wouldn't normally hear that's really helpful.

And I would like to offer correction in what you just said. You said oftentimes executive coaches get involved. Let me correct that to say corporate executive coaches who are enterprise-wide business partners.

Absolutely.

Especially those that are members of ACEC.

Well, and with— and I— that is why my primary reason why I am a member of ACEC is that I think, you know, I forget how we met, CB, but I remember that conversation. I heard about the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches, and I called you up, and I expected a 15-minute conversation, and we went on for an hour and a half about theories about executive coaching. But really what was important to me is that the understanding about coaches, you know, there is an understanding about coaches is that what they do is they ask questions and they don't teach. And they don't consult. And I don't think you can be an executive coach without having some knowledge of business, some experience, hopefully some wisdom that you can share. Not that you should do this, but this is another way of looking at it. And that is what— why I— the primary reason I'm a member of ACEC is that it recognizes that the top corporate executive coaches are business-wide— how do you say it?

Enterprise-wide.

Enterprise-wide business partners.

Yes.

Yes.

So, okay, having said that, I want to talk about your book.

Okay.

What inspired you to talk about it? I know that you have corrected me many times because I use the term bullies and aggressive leaders and You have a completely different perspective, which I thought was totally BS, but I've come to respect it.

I just want— I just want our audience to know that I've had the opportunity to spend some time socially with CB, and that's how she talks. That's what you get. A little bit worse, actually, when we're not on camera.

So Look, you know what, I must confess, my values, I wear them on my sleeve, and I talk straight from the heart, and there's no bullshit.

So, you know, let me challenge you on why that's BS. So, you know, there are people who would be offended by what you just said to me.

Yeah.

Because they come from a culture We're just talking.

Yeah.

And I think that that is one of the key points in the book, that it's partly cultural. Now, that doesn't excuse it. If you are an executive leader, your job is to manage the whole function and to move the whole function forward. Well, if they speak a different language than you, you better learn how to speak their language because your job is to lead. I think it was Gandhi who said, something along the lines of, wait a minute, there go the people. I need to get in front of them, for I am their leader.

But it's going back to what we talked about before. It's being an enterprise-wide business. You have to learn different languages. I'm not talking about the difference between French or Spanish or Italian. I'm talking about the different languages of the person you're going to communicate with. The audience, I've just let you in on the behind the scenes of how I communicate to Jordan. We're similar folk, you know?

Yes. Yes. So what I'd like to do, if it's okay with you—

Oh, God. What?

There we go. What I'd like to do is really talk about what I think is the fundamental issue in the book that I cover. Which is that most of the people who I meet who are abrasive, and by the way, including me, when I, when I essentially—

I am not abrasive. I'm direct.

Yes, you are. And you are, and you are loving and kind.

Yes.

So, so most of the people who are experienced as abrasive do not want to hurt people. Their abrasiveness is either because of culture, they grew up in a loud family, they just say stuff. Or their abrasiveness is because they're scientists and they're not really good social people, and they're just into solving the puzzle. But one of the key reasons they're abrasive is that their self-esteem is so attached to winning, to serving, and to achieving that when the people around them don't measure up, they feel personally attacked.

Now, are you saying that all competitive people are abrasive?

I am not, but I think they tend to be more abrasive than most, yes.

Okay.

So I think it's possible for a competitive person not to be abrasive, particularly if they got raised in one of those families where you never expressed it. However, my experience is that there's a piece of it that's competitive, which is winning. The achievement piece, the achieving great things is— so I'm coaching a— in the past, the chief medical officer who was accused of being abrasive, who was very frustrated with the people around him because they weren't following procedure and they were doing things without running it by him so that they could shortcut, etc. And he knew he came from an abrasive background, so he was trying to be nice, and he would argue with them— not argue, discuss with them why we should look at it differently. And ultimately, you know, we talked about who's got, you know, who's got ultimately the exposure here. You're, you know, you're the chief medical officer. And so, you know, when he shifted to, I hear you, but, you know, I have the exposure, the conversation changed. But basically, he was not trying to hurt people, and people were really offended by him. And it was really how the language he was using and how he was talking about it. So he simultaneously cared about people, but he cared more about the end result for the patients that they were trying to cure. He was into serving and achieving great things. For him, it was not about winning. He did not care. He did not need any money. He was about making a difference in the world. One of the things I've noticed is that I've worked with a number of nonprofit leaders who want to serve various populations out there, and they tend to be very, very abrupt with their staff. Um, at times because their staff isn't, you know, what do you mean you want more money? Um, you're not here to make money. You're here to serve those people and to ease their suffering. And you get that kind of response from somebody who's committed to suffering. So my experience is most of the time it's a reaction to what it is that they are, uh, committed to and what their self-esteem is based on. They often experience it as being asked to be politically correct, overly polite, and essentially inauthentic to change their language.

Let me challenge you on something.

Sure.

I love Holly's response. She goes, CB, you're a tough old broad just like me. I'm going to take out the word old. So these aggressive leaders, and particularly the medical doctor you talked about, so the objection was not following the process and procedures that he outlined that he felt really took care of the patients.

Right.

But what if, what if they didn't follow the process and procedures and they were more successful? Would— how would the— what would the response look like?

Uh, you know, I, I guess that's an interesting question, but if you're not following research procedures and there's danger that the FDA isn't going to approve your medication because of it, um, you know, that's the job of that person to make sure that we're complying with, with Okay, let's take it out of the medical field.

If that is a trait of somebody who's aggressive, yeah, that they want to see the situation be successful.

Again, it's not that they're aggressive, it's that they're experienced as aggressive. Because—

See, I think that's where you and I differ. This word experience to me me provides an excuse for the behavior. So tell me how I'm wrong on that.

Well, the way you're wrong on it is that— let's look at any, you know, the way you're wrong on that is that you and I talk to each other like that and don't experience each other as abrasive. And if you're working in a construction group, you can use language and talk to people in a way That's just fine with them most of the time. But you would never get away with in a nonprofit that's serving, you know, disabled children, or in a medical facility. And so very clearly, there was somebody that I coached who was from one of the South American countries, who was working in Germany. And he was telling me that You know, that his German boss is disrespectful to him. And I suggested that, listen to how he talks to other people. Is he talking to other people differently than you or the same? And he came back the next time, he said, yeah, you're right. It's not personal. It's just how he talks.

I love that story. Yeah.

So, you know, how— whether you are perceived as, you know, people who are extremely polite and come from quiet families and cultures where you're where you're always indirect and et cetera, often think that this is just an excuse because they think they're right.

Mm-hmm.

They know how people should behave and talk to each other. And so, and the reality is I am not making excuses because if you find out that somebody is being offended by how you speak to them, And you care about your relationship with them, I, you know, and you want to have a respectful relationship, it makes sense that you at least talk about it and recognize that it's a cultural difference. And they have a right to their cultural difference as much as you have a right to yours.

So— Is it always a cultural difference?

Oh, no. Okay, some— sometimes, you know, sometimes it's, uh, sometimes it's that they are very analytic. and they are just not, uh, very interpersonal. So they come walking down the hall in the morning and, you know, they're scientists, they're, they're running a scientific operation, or they're engineers, and their, their mind is in the puzzle. How are we going to solve this? And they just don't see any point in saying hello to people. So if, if, if the people who, um, have a strong self-esteem, who are solid with themselves, strong confidence, experience it as that person is a little weird. You know, just they're not that friendly. People who have less confidence may experience it as they've seen through me or they're being disrespectful to me. Or if they come from a culture where if you do that, if you don't say hello, you know, I've learned that when I talk with people from certain other countries, that I start off with, hello, how are you? And we spend some time, and, and I'm not being inauthentic. I want to connect. And I realize it, you know, it's sort of like the same as if I went to, for instance, Italy and I was talking English. Would I be offended if they didn't understand me because I'm speaking English? You know, you gotta— you've gotta figure out what is the culture and how to join the culture.

So I think you're bringing up a really good point because I remember when I started at, at a Fortune 500 company, it was my first big exposure, and I would walk down the halls and I wouldn't say good morning or hello.

Yes.

And word came back to me through my manager that I was perceived as being antisocial. And I'm thinking, what are you talking about? I'm the biggest Crybaby, you know. I mean, my feelings got hurt, and I didn't understand it until I went to a career coach at the time who was really an executive coach. And he said to me, no, the issue is that you're an introvert. You don't have confidence in saying good morning, how are you, because you, you know, technically you don't care. You would care if they said— CB, I have this problem. Immediately you'd be there to help and give a solution. But to waste time talking about the sun is not— Right.

Exactly, exactly. And the last thing, let me just add, the last thing is that there's a group of people who fall into the category of either sociopath or psychopath.

Whoa. Okay.

Sociopaths basically, and And again, I am a licensed clinical social worker. I don't do that anymore, and it's been a long time since I looked at the DSM-III, at the DSM-5 or 6 or whatever it is now. Um, uh, sociopaths feel comfortable, um, meeting their own needs at the expense of others, and, and their guilt isn't, you know, quite— they have little holes in their superego and their guilt. Psychopaths enjoy hurting people. So there, so there is some percentage of people out there who enjoy hurting people. And I've done some informal surveys of executive coaches. I believe that the American Psychological Association says that the presence of psychopathy in the general population is like 3% or 2%, something like that. Most of my executive coaching people think that it's somewhere in the 10 to 15% in the executive suite, maybe 20%. But still, it's still a minor part of what you see. And so, but one of the big issues is in terms of being a coach with somebody is do they have any intrinsic motivation to change? If they take enough enjoyment out of making people feel bad and demeaning them and all of that. And there is no part of them that says, you know, this is really the wrong thing to do, I need to manage that impulse and build another one. There is no point in doing any coaching, because it ain't gonna work.

So, so your book, really, to be clear to everybody, does not address this population.

No, it's not written for that population.

Okay, so that's an important distinction, um, because I, I don't know, I think those numbers are higher, Jordan. And, you know, we could get into a great conversation because then you can bring in the concept of race.

Yes.

Is the psychopath behavior more prominent when Race is at stake, right? Or is it what you're talking about, which is somebody who just wants to see good results who may not know how to deliver, um, the requirements to get to the good results?

Sure.

Right.

So, uh, you know, again, I'm thinking out loud here, and I am not making recommendations and talking as an expert.

Okay, enough with that.

We're having a I just want to be clear.

We're having a conversation.

So, um, I think that if you are an abrasive personality and not a psychopathic personality, um, it is possible that you have some biases about race, that in, you know, etc. It's also possible that you might be just from one of those loud families that the person who your communication is directed to, who's who experiences about race is misunderstanding your intention. There's lots of ways to do that. I will tell you a story that when I first got to San Diego, I was in the Employee Assistance Professionals Association and I have no idea what the topic was. But people were talking and expressing an opinion about something that was sociopolitical in organizations and I expressed an opinion. And one of the women in the room said something to me along the lines of, out loud, you know, you're a white man, what do you know? And I remember saying something like, first of all, I'm Jewish and I lost— and my family lost people in the Holocaust. And second of all, I grew up in a city housing project. So how many Black people did you grow up with? And there was dead silence on the other side. And she said, I apologize. And in retrospect, you know, that was— oh, this would be a great example of how I've changed. Yes, it would. Because I would not have done— I would not do that again. What I would say at this point would be, you know, I would hope that we can get past— you know, I know there's a lot of stress and pain around gender issues, around race issues. I hope we can have a— I would love to have a conversation with you about this. that gets beyond color and gender? Is that possible? Because there's a lot of legitimate feeling out there these days is probably how I would respond to it now. By the way, because most of the abrasive executives are white males, I have worked with 2 different very strong female consultants on how to be interviewed and how to respond to these things. And that comes from them. They're the ones who said to me— I was like, what happens if somebody calls me out and calls me an abrasive white male in front of a room full of people? That was before COVID And we worked on what I was going to say. And it was, how do you You know, it goes back to how do you have compassion for people who are doing things that are attacking to you or that you don't think are right, but still have compassion for them as a human being?

Yeah, you know, unfortunately we have to end in a few minutes, but I'm smiling because we have to get to a place where if somebody calls somebody out on something like this, situation you described, saying that you have no experience because you're a white male may be so far from the truth.

Right.

You're not saying that all of a sudden you're a Black male.

Right.

You're saying that you have issues or experiences that have hurt you also.

Yes.

So, you know, it's so important for people to see that, and it's also important for people to understand when somebody comes at them, what are they really saying?

Right.

And that was a very incomplete sentence that she gave you. What is she comparing you to? And what is her experience of you? And what is her personal experience?

Right. And I got triggered. And I read and I got defensive and did what abrasive people do when their self-esteem is hurt.

Well, you know what I mean? It's— I think many people would be triggered because if you're coming at somebody in an abrasive way as she did, well, then it leads to triggering on both sides, right?

Exactly.

And so we, you know, that's what my new project, Workplace Racial Equality, is about because we have to understand more about triggers.

Yes.

And I don't mean it from a career sense. I mean it from what's inside. And what do we say to each other that triggers a fire when we could in fact say the same thing and get more information and get to meeting resolve if we just learn how to say, this has been my experience, I want to hear what your experience is, and maybe there's someplace in the middle Yes, I agree.

I completely agree. That's where we need to get.

And, and with that, I want to thank you, Jordan, for writing your book. I want to thank you for exposing me to something that I originally thought was bullshit. I possibly could have more compassion. For those people. Certainly I can ask, where are you coming from?

Yes.

With your statement, so I have a better understanding if it's from an ego perspective or if it's from the perspective of making things good and outcomes good.

Yes.

For both sides.

Yes.

So with that, Jordan, I have to invite you— not have to, want to invite you back. So we could talk some more and have some really honest, broad discussion. Are you up for it?

I am up for it.

Oh, good.

Thank you.

Well, Jordan, thank you so much for being on the show. And audience, thank you so much. And please write to me, let me know what you think. And let's move forward with success and compassion and staying true to your values. This is CB Bowman live from Challenges of the C-Suite. We'll see you next week. Bye now.