236. The Trouble With Humility

Foreign.

Welcome to another episode of at the Table with Patrick Lynchione, where everything we talk about is related to the organizational health and the world of work. I'm your host, Pat Lynchione, joined by the full crew today. I've got Tracy, Cody, and Beau online. I've got Karen sitting next to me. Matt behind the glass producing. It's great to have everyone here. Cody, what is the topic today?

The trouble with Humility.

That's right, the trouble with humility. That's something I wrote about 25 years ago in a magazine that we realized we hadn't really talked about. We love this topic. It's very interesting. It applies today as much as it did back then. But before we go forward, I just want to make an announcement and say we are going to start doing these at the Table podcasts every other week. We're going to stagger them with the Working Genius. And the reason why is we are just so slammed and so busy, and we want to put enough time to make them great, and it's going to make that easier to do. The Working Genius podcast is actually, I think, bigger than at the Table now. It's grown so much. So we are slammed. And so we're going to be doing that next week. We'll have another one of these, and then we'll start to stagger them after that every other week. All righty. Okay. So the trouble with Humility, I wrote it. There was a magazine called Leader to Leader years ago, and I wrote this. This article about how. And it was based on my work with CEOs. And I realized that the idea of being a humble leader, being a really good leader, and being humble was really hard. And it was because of this. Leaders who were humble often. And the definition of humility as a leader is that I'm not more important than the people I lead. I'm just another person. I'm a child of God. And this person is too. And just because I'm the CEO or the leader doesn't mean I'm more important than they are. But when you know that to be TR true, it's really hard to understand that your words and actions are actually more important than those other people. They're more impactful, they're more influential. And so I would meet leaders who were humble and thought, well, if I'm humble, then why does anybody really care what I think? And why do I have to get out in front of people all the time? I'm just another person. And then I met these other leaders who were really charismatic and really good at leading. And they were very influential. And so often they came to the conclusion that, well, I must actually be more important than these people. And it went to their heads. And it's a really difficult thing to exercise influence and power and authority without changing your understanding that you are not really more important than they are. And so the trouble with humility is if you really go after humility, you can't let go of the fact that you still have to get out there and lead and that the things you do and say are critically important. And that's the balance that we're talking about here today, which is far more difficult than it is to describe.

So it's fun to think 25 years ago, Pat, when you were with a team and were with a leader and seeing this and when you would observe this with a leader, tell me about what would that conversation with that leader be like to see them maybe wrestling with the. I want to be charismatic, but I also want to be humble. How would you talk about that with them?

Well, I'm glad you asked, because the guy that made me really think about this was the CEO of a company who was humble. He did not think he was important. And I would have to push him to get, get out there and say, people need to hear from you and they're waiting to hear what you have to say. And he'd be like, really? Why? And I realized, because he was like, listen, I mean, he would see people in the printer room and he was the CEO of a large company, and everybody would brag about the fact that they would go up and introduce themselves to him, and he would just say, oh, my name is Mark. And then they go, somebody go, you know, that's the CEO. And they go, what? Because he just didn't think, well, who am I? But as a result of that, he was reluctant to exercise his authority. Okay, that's what made me think about that. Then the. Then another guy was all about his authority. But deep down inside, he didn't see the people he led as actually being important and having the same kind of dignity and importance that he did. So that was the juxtaposition, if you will.

And Pat, you know, it's so interesting because we. You talk about humility in many of your books. Like it's the. It's part. It's related to the foundation of teamwork, the vulnerability based trust. It's one of the three virtues of the ideal team player. It's in some ways in your book, the motive. You know, this concept permeates teamwork and leadership and all of that. And I think what's really. When you're talking about this, it feels like there's this fine line or like a tightrope you have to walk. Right. Because it's the. And I guess the question might be like, this is not binary either, Right. I'm sure that there are CEOs you've met who slip into struggling with one or the other. And so it does feel like this very active tightrope situation where you're constantly checking yourself on what you're describing as like, two different violations of humility, kind of.

I'm glad you asked that question, Cody, because I was just thinking about that thing. A person isn't born one way or the other. In fact, what you see so often is as leaders experience more success, they start to lose that. And, you know, there's stories from the Bible and throughout history, history of people losing their sense of humility because they get caught up in power and authority. And, you know, you've heard about power corrupts. And I think what it corrupts is it. It leads to pride. And that is a very dangerous thing. Now, you can't know that about a person until you actually get to know them closely. Because. Just because they might seem proud when they're. When they're leading, sometimes deep down inside, they're just compensating for their humility. But when you know deep down inside that they're starting to think, yeah, I'm pretty important. I'm all that. That's a dangerous, dangerous moment.

Wow. Because the. We all know, I think in the. It's in the show Band of Brothers that I remember this being somewhat poignant of. You respect the position.

Right.

Like, even if somebody didn't respect the person that was in leadership, like, I'm still going to respect the role. And so what can happen is when we're in a role that's really significant, at which leadership is a significant role, you can start to think, well, this role is something I therefore must be, something I must be really, really special. And the inverse of that, I guess, would be the problem of failing to recognize no leadership really matters. Leadership is important. The role means something for the people that are following.

Yeah, leadership is the verb. And the verb shouldn't impact the noun. The noun should be, I am a human being no better, no worse than anybody else. And if I'm the CEO of a company and I treat that janitor well, it's not because I'm a nice person. It's because he or she deserves the same level of dignity I have. But they see me as somebody who has authority, and so I need to exercise that in a way that doesn't creep into the noun. It's just the verb. It's a hard thing to do. It's really hard.

So one of the places I see leaders struggle with this is their time. Because a leader who is humble and we have the privilege of working with amazing leaders who are genuinely humble, they want to be willing to do any task, but that doesn't mean that they should do every task. I remember a couple years ago, I was at an event and they were tearing down from the event and people were folding chairs, and I saw the CEO wrestling with. I should be helping fold chairs like everybody else. But I'm also in a really critical conversation that my words weigh 1,000 pounds, and I should be here present with this leader. That's a microcosm of leaders wrestling with my time. Can you just speak to that pat of how that plays into this tension?

Yeah, it's a great example. It's such a tactical one. You're sitting there and you're thinking, oh, but I need to demonstrate to these people that I don't think I'm better than them. But then you realize, and you know, the truth of the matter is, if you have nothing else to do and they need your help, that's a great exercise of humility. But the fact is there are people, that's their job to do that, and your job is to do something else. And it's not a violation of humility to lean into that job. So if you're doing it because you feel. Feel like you have to prove it, there's probably. That's probably a struggle that you don't need to do. But if you're unwilling to, in those moments when it is necessary, it's like. It's like you see the pilot of an airplane coming back and helping the flight attendants clean it. That's an act of free will, because if they're in a pinch and he or she is the right person to do that, being willing to do that is a sign of humility. But you shouldn't do it for the effect of it. If. Especially if it's going to take you away from your job that you need to be doing flying the plane.

Well, I was going to say, and you said timing is important if you have nothing better to do. Like, if he was doing that during the flight, you would be concerned. You're like, you actually, you should be in the cockpit that's where all of us passengers want you to be. And I think it actually speaks sort of comically, but in a real way to. What you're describing is like people expect the pilot to be in control of the cockpit during the flight, the same way you expect the leader of an organization to be at the helm making decisions. And, you know, and so when you violate the expectation of that role one way or the other, it can get a little dicey.

Exactly. And remember what CS Lewis said. Humility is not thinking less of yourself, it's just thinking about yourself less. So that doesn't mean you have to beat yourself up for having a different job. You don't think you're more important.

So, Pat, a few leaders can actually master this concept. I think we all agree to that. What is your advice to them around this tension? What would you say to them? How to work through the tension?

Yeah, I would say that if you're a leader and you find yourself struggling, like, man, I guess I'm getting used to this. I'm spending all of my time and I'm struggling that I'm going to lose my humility. I. I'd say take the time to have meaningful conversations with people in drastically different roles than yours and really build a relationship with somebody doing something far different than you are. I mean, yeah, go talk to the janitor. Go talk to the janitor. Stop by one night and say, hey, tell me what your name is and what's going on and remind yourself of the common humanity you have with that person that will reground you in the fact that you're not more important. And if you're a leader who really struggles to stand up there and take on the role because you're afraid that that's violating your humility. I think the thing is, is have somebody remind you of the importance of what you're doing and that nobody else can do it, that if you don't do, will not be done and your people will be worse off. It's still an act of service and servant leadership to serve them. But just because you're not folding the chairs doesn't mean it's not the same kind of humble service.

Pat, I may be misremembering this, so remind me. We were chatting with the CEO and they were wrestling with their job description. And I think that you said this is something you should bring to the leadership team to let the leadership team speak into what do they need you to do as a leader? But correct me if I'm wrong, if I'm misremembering that because I think that can help you step more into the authority of being a leader. When you hear this is what the people around me need me to do, it's not arrogant. It's actually serving them for me to step into that role.

Right. I mean, imagine in the military a general saying, oh, I should be out there on the front lines with the soldiers, and all it would take is the soldiers to go, well, who's going to tell us where to go and who's going to be the one making the decisions? And if you put yourself on the line like that, I mean, war is a serious, horrible thing. So I don't want to bet. But we need you to fill your role so we can do ours. And if you don't do yours, well, we're going to get killed. And sometimes a humble leader just needs to be reminded of that by their staff and say, no, we need you up there doing your job, or else we're not going to be doing ours down here. So even the most humble, pride fearing leader will probably respond well to that.

And I think there is definitely something pat to you, the willingness, like your willingness to go be on the front lines or go do that job, your willingness to do that and then your wisdom to know that that's not the right thing for you to do. You know, the.

That's a great point.

You want a leader who's willing to mop the floors and clean up the chair, you know, stack the tables and all that stuff, but with the wisdom to know that my highest and best contribution to the people around me is to play the role that I'm supposed to play. You know, Bo and I were just talking this morning. I was like, this piece of advice. I was listening to a podcast and somebody asked him, what's the best piece of advice you've received? And he said, calculate the cost of inaction. And I was like, oh, that's sort of. That's a really great way. A lot of times we don't calculate that cost. Right. And I think that. And even as I apply it to the conversation we're having is like, if you're a leader, calculate the cost of you being unwilling to lead or thinking too little of yourself to go. Like you said, you know, rally the troops and cast vision and be in front, or calculate the cost of your unwillingness to. Or to think that you're better than some of the people there. Like, both of them have costs and should help ground you into that tightrope walk of being an actually humble leader that doesn't think too much of themselves. But I do think that the person who's maybe struggling with I'm not as important, there is a real cost to that maybe goes uncalculated and unperceived, but is very real, not just to the leadership team, but I would imagine. I almost thought, Pat, you were going to say, hey, go talk to the janitor if you're struggling with being overly egotistical potentially, or not thinking too much of yourself. And I thought maybe the other. I thought you were going to say, and if you're struggling with the other side, go talk to the janitor. Because they might be like, man, we need a leader that's out there. We're all confused. We're all not sure where we're headed. I mean, you might be able to talk to the janitor in both of those circumstances and get the right answer.

That's a great point.

You know, when we're talking about the leader who steps up in front and casts vision and says, here's where we're going. And it may be easy to assume that. That that is easy or that that would be the easier route. And I actually think for a lot of leaders, that's very, very vulnerable. In fact, it might be safer for the leader to stack chairs than it is to go to their office and listen to their clients and actually decide, here is where we're going. And it's worth just maybe highlighting that vulnerability and humility are so tied together, and the act of leading itself is actually very, very vulnerable. That decision to say, I'm going to stand up and say, we're doing this, not this. I'm going to stand up and remind people or galvanize them, even if it's not where they want to go, is a vulnerable action.

Yeah. You know, Karen wrote me a note that said people need to be remembered to remember that when you decide to be a leader, you're making a strategic choice, and it's a hard choice you're making. And this is why the motive is so important. Because if you made that decision because you want something for yourself out of that, then you're almost naturally certainly going to fall prey to pride. But if you made that decision because you wanted to serve, then you have to realize you chose to be that way. And what you were just saying, Bo, and that you can't abdicate that to go fold chairs. Because the truth of the matter is, aside from the pay, being the CEO of a company or being the janitor being the Middle manager, they're just different burdens, and everybody has to choose and accept the burdens that go along with that. And so, yeah, it's about being intentional and knowing that everybody has different benefits and burdens and you have to take on yours as well. I don't know. I feel like I just convoluted that, but don't know if that makes sense.

It makes sense to me. I think it's good to. Is that the Peter principle? That is sometimes people get promoted or one level above their competence, and it's tempting to think, oh, leader, I want more leadership, more leadership, more leadership. And we should all pause and count the cost if we're being invited into leadership to say, can I really carry that? Am I really willing to lead these people and to carry that burden of leadership?

You know, a question I often get asked is, who's the best leader in the world? Or who's the best leader you've ever worked with? And what I usually say is, well, it's probably not a famous person because most people are looking for that, but it's probably a middle manager who decided this is the level at which I'm most comfortable and I'm not going to aspire to something that I'm not meant to be. And they are doing exactly what they're meant to do and the humility of that and then fulfilling that responsibility. Well, you know, the best leaders are the ones that aren't trying to go beyond what they're meant to do, and yet nobody really wants to talk to them or write an article in a magazine about them.

So can I ask which type is harder to change? Is it the charismatic leader to become more humble, or is it the humble leader in. In service of. Of charisma?

Well, I would rather push a humble leader to have charisma, but it all depends on how open a person's heart is. Like when I wrote the book the Motive about what's your motive? I had people write to me and say, oh, my gosh, Pat, I don't. I was not humble. I was doing it for myself. And I realize it now, and I want to be humble, and I want to be. Do it for the right reasons. And so, like, I'll take that.

And.

But I find that it's harder to talk somebody out of being who is doing it for themselves than it is to get somebody to step up. I don't know if that's my personal preference, because I'd rather encourage somebody to be. To be more charismatic or more public in their leadership. Then I would talk them down off the ladder of pride. But I'm not sure which is. I guess that I would say that's probably the easier one.

But I'm not sure I would agree with you. Especially because the environment that a leader is in tends to make it easier for them to be about themselves. It's hard to learn humility at the top, maybe is another way to say it.

Yeah.

Well, I think if you surround yourself with the right kind of team, I think you could probably influence a prideful CEO more. So I think it would really depend on his or her team.

Yeah. And how long I would say too is did they recently slip into that or have they always operated under that premise? And if they've always operated under that premise, it's really tough to talk them out of it because they're like, you don't understand. This was my whole motivation for getting here. Where if they were initially humble and they're like, oh my gosh, I've lost my way, that would probably be so that it probably depends on what their underlying rationale for being a leader is.

Or you could just bring your spouse to work with you because they'll humble you pretty quickly about whether or not you're more important than the people around you.

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Or your kids. Matt keeps me humble every day.

Or Cody.

I'm a foremost expert on humility. So yeah, I can help.

Alrighty. So that's what we're here to talk. That's where they're. That's a. Listen, I sounded like I'm just rambling. That's what we wanted to talk about, the trouble with humility. And now we have an unpaid ad and it's over to you, Cody.

So I've done a version of this unpaid ad before. I've done an unpaid ad for the sport of golf. Big golf fan here, but I'm actually going to go even more niche. I'm a big advocate of playing a scramble with your friends. I know a lot of people like to keep their own score. And you go because you want to get better every time. But every once in a while just get four guys against four other four friends in a foursome against four other friends in a foursome. And just use the best shot. You feel like you're way better golfer. It makes it more of a team game. You celebrate together. When somebody hits a putt, there's like, I mean everyone's high fiving and encouraging each other. So I like taking that sort of individual sport of golf and making it a Team sport in the scramble. I'm an advocate for the scramble.

Matt, you played a scramble just this weekend with a buddy. Right. And how was that? A lot more fun than playing by myself. There you go. Did you find you played better because you weren't like, grinding on every bad shot? I don't think I played any better, but I definitely was less frustrated and I wasn't as hard on myself because, you know, you're on a team.

I find that I play better in a scramble because I don't have to use all my own shots. That's primarily why I find that I have to play.

Absolutely.

If you're playing golf with really humble people, they will celebrate when you have a good shot. But generally a scramble is so much more like you're high fiving each other. It feels like you get to celebrate a little bit more.

You know what I just realized? There's people listening to this that don't know what the hell a scramble is and what it is. It's just like everybody hits and then you go to the best shot and everybody puts their ball there and then they shoot from there and then they hit the best shot. So you can have an awesome shot and feel great about it. Even if your first shot went into the bushes, you don't have to use that shot. And so what it is, it just. Everybody is playing from a better place and. And every shot is. Is fun. So that's what we mean. I'm pro scramble. Yes. I like an omelette too, so sounds good. All righty, everybody. Thanks for joining us. We're glad you listened to us talk about the trouble with humility and go out and play golf and do a scramble. We'll talk to you next time.

God bless.