023: Achieving the Yield of Dreams with Charlie Epstein

People often ask me what's made the biggest difference in my wealth. And honestly, it's not a course, a book, or even a single investment. It's who I've surrounded myself with. Hey, it's Justin. And the truth is, proximity is power. The fastest way to grow your wealth, your impact and your freedom is to get in the right rooms with people who are already where you want to be. That's why I started the Lifestyle Investor Mastermind. I It began as a passion project, just a few like minded investors getting together to share deals, strategies and support. But it's grown into one of the most high impact financial communities I've ever seen. Our members range from successful entrepreneurs to investors with 8, 9 and 10 figure net worths. But the unifying goal is the same. Build real freedom through cash flow and and live life on their terms.

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Welcome to the Lifestyle Investor Podcast. Imagine being able to earn passive income, build long term wealth while gaining total freedom from your business or job. That's what lifestyle investing is all about. I'm your host, Justin Donald and In less than 2 years my investments drove enough passive income for both my wife and me to quit our jobs. And now I want to show you how to do the same. I want to teach you how to create wealth without creating a job. You'll learn the exact same investment strategies I used to multiply my net worth to over eight figures. All all before the age of 40. If you want to learn all about low risk cash flow investing, achieve financial freedom and live the life you truly desire, this podcast is going to show you exactly how to do it.

Today I'm talking to Charlie Epstein. Charlie is the desirement coach and the author of Paychecks for Life and Save America Save. He's coached over 10,000 financial advisors around the country and helped thousands of working Americans create paychecks for life, ensuring that they can do all the things they desire to do. He's on a mission to make the word retirement disappear. He aspires to change the mindset of working Americans so that they can do all the things they desire today, not sometime in the future. In our conversation, Charlie and I talk about how he caught the entrepreneurial bug as a child. How lifestyle investors can Bend time and the unique storytelling tools he's created to help people achieve their financial goals in the present. One more thing before we get to today's interview, if you haven't already, be sure to hit the subscribe button on Apple or wherever you're listening, so new episodes are automatically downloaded directly to your device. Thanks for listening, and without further delay, my conversation with Charlie Epstein.

Well, Charlie, it is so great to have you on the Lifestyle Investor Podcast. Welcome, and thank you for joining us.

Thanks for having me on board. I appreciate it.

Well, it's really fun you and I connected through a mutual friend, Mike Koenigs. And man, have we had so much fun working with him. And I heard all about you during my time working with Mike, and I hear that you had heard a bunch about me. And so it was just a matter of time until we connected. And of course, we hit it off like Mike knew we would. So it's very cool learning about you now.

We gotta do some deals together.

That's right. That's right. Well, you've got a fun story, Charlie, so I'd love for you to share with our listeners and those that are watching how you got started in the investment world and in financial services, because this has been your passion, your career for the vast majority of your life, and you've done really well.

Well, thanks. That's a good vote of confidence. But, you know, it's funny because when you and I were chatting and I asked you, who are the entrepreneurs in your world? You know, so growing up, my father was an entrepreneur. He had his own women's clothing store. So, I mean, I was born and he was already, you know, working the store and retail, you know, six in the morning till nine at night, six days a week. Because back then, Sunday, they had the blue law, so things weren't open. So, you know, my dad was off building the business. My mom was home being home. Mother. But she was also an opera singer, and, you know, she sang both at our synagogue and the local church. So my mother is what I call the voice. And I was the youngest. My brother and sister were both intellectuals. They're both PhDs, so I knew I didn't want to do that. And when you say, where did I get started with the whole financial world? It really happened for me when I started my own landscaping business at 12 or 13 in the neighborhood. I know we were talking about how you were selling newspapers, I think, as a kid, and there's nothing better than a cash business. So I'm driving around the neighborhood, undercutting people said, well, how do you get a job as a 12 or 13 year old? It wasn't how do you get a job? You just talk to enough people and say, hey, I'll mow your lawn for 10 bucks. They're charging 20 bucks. Next thing I knew, I had 10, 15 lawns. I'm making 150 a week cash.

I'm 12 years old. This is the 1960s. That's a lot of money. And then I got into collecting memorabilia, comic books. And I'm a big Marx Brother fan of this huge collection. And here's the crazy thing. When I was 16 years old, I went to my parents and I said, hey, my buddy Andy and I are going to go to New York City for the Comic Con convention for four days. What do you think? My parents said, well, I mean, I.

Would imagine that they were like, no way, that's crazy. But I'm wondering if maybe your parents are a little more chill than that.

You got to remember the era that I grew up in. I'm a little bit older than you, you know, we didn't lock our doors, we didn't lock our cars, the windows were rolled down. You got home from school at 3 o' clock and your parents said, be home for dinner at 6. You see the lights behind me here in the field of dreams. The way you knew it was 6 o' clock is the lights came on, the street lights. Oh shit. Gotta get home, right? So I used to hang out at this comic book store in downtown Springfield with my buddy Andy and this guy Dick Sykes ran it with his one eyed girlfriend. So I came home and I said, hey, I'm going to go to New York City with my buddy Andy. Who are you going with? Oh, Dick Sykes and his one eyed girlfriend. Okay, have a good time.

That was it. They didn't call up Mr. Sykes and interview him and the one eyed girlfriend, you know, they were just like, well, you go to, we drop you off at that store every Saturday and you're there for five hours. Off we went. First big deal I did was fantastic four number one, I think I bought it for 30 bucks and sold it for 200 bucks. That conference, of course today that comic book's probably worth $250,000, you know.

Oh my goodness.

30 to 200 in four days, you know, that's an ROI you can live with.

I love that you figured that out at such a young age. That's incredible.

Yeah, so I mean, I was naturally wheeling and dealing in my basement and there was no online There was no Internet. You're doing this all by mail or going to these conventions. So, yeah, I was just very, very lucky that I kind of had that entrepreneurial spirit.

No kidding. That's incredible. And it's so interesting because I was on your show and we got into some really cool questions with you, and I just feel like our paths are so similar. My mom also worked at our church growing up, and my dad really worked long hours because for most of my memory, he was either in retail selling appliances or fixing appliances, or he was selling cars. And he was working six days a week, super long hours, and same thing, Sundays. You couldn't sell any of these appliances.

They called them the blue law. It was the blue law.

That's right.

I also have great memories of my parents, friends coming to the house and partying. Okay. They were always dressed up, right? They were always dressed up at the. At the house of the party. My mom always had a cigarette in one hand, a cocktail in the other. My dad didn't smoke or drink. My mom smoked and drank. And they were all entrepreneurs. They all owned businesses. I mean, one guy, they owned a dairy farm. But it was still, they were entrepreneurial. My dad's best friend started a company called Casual Corner Stores, which became one of the biggest retail chains, and he ended up working for them. So I was just around this energy. They looked good, they felt good, they were always happy. There was this energy, this just spirit. And I was like, that. I want to be around that energy.

Well, that makes a lot of sense, right? Because you're young, you're impressionable, and the thing that you're walking away with is these are people that I run or surround myself with. These are experiences I want to have. This is the life I want to create. You're seeing at an early age what fun and excitement and intentionality all kind of weaves together for you. And it's cool whether you realize it or not. I mean, I'm sure that, like, this had a lot to do with who you became and the entrepreneurial spirit that you had and just the way that you would strive for more.

I like to say, and I talk about this in my one man show, Yield to Dreams. I was born with a divine discontent.

Ooh, I like that.

I was never, ever satisfied. It was just this discontent. So I had my dad struggling, but successful upper middle class. I had my mother, who my mother was on her way to a successful career at the Met when she stumbled on my dad, who was a lieutenant in the army, and that was it. But I've always been torn between these worlds. Entrepreneur, entertainer, entertainer, entrepreneur. Which is what the show, if we get into it, is really all about. So it was, how do I meld the theatrical with the business? So I went through school doing every show possible. I just loved the theater and performing. But I was also, you know, I had the entrepreneurial side of the brain. So, you know, when I got out of school, went to college, I was an economics major who lived in the theater. I just said, where's the theater? And actually, I was going to be an English major who minored in the theater. My dad said, yeah, that and a cup of coffee will get you 50 cents. I went, okay, I'll be an economics major and I'll live in the theater. He was like, okay, I'll pay your tuition. Now you had to pay your tuition. I was lucky. My dad said, no, we're going to pay your tuition so you can focus on just doing the work and the schoolwork. That was a real blessing. I'm always grateful for that.

That's awesome. Well, I'll tell you what, you know, I could see it going, you know, great either way. You know, I love that I had to pay for my own. My wife loves that her family paid for hers. And I can see how both really make sense. As long as you take it for, you know, as long as you. You see the silver lining in either situation and you don't take it for granted. You know, you're talking about your show. And I want to get into this for sure, but I've got to let you know that there's so much of your hu. Even your look.

The appeal that you have, that reminds me of one of my favorite comedians of all time, which is Larry David. And Larry David has, I mean, he just crushed it with Seinfeld. It was my all time favorite show growing up. And then, of course, Curb youb Enthusiasm, Jerry. Yeah, I mean, I've got to imagine you could do some great, you know, mimicking and impersonations of Larry. You.

You're only the 80th person today to say I remind you of him.

I love it. Well, he. He brings a smile to my face every time.

The hair is not quite long enough. But I kind of brought it in. But yeah, quirky is what you're saying. It's okay.

I love it.

Charlie, you're just quirky. That's what Mike likes to say. You're just this quirky character. Nick says the same thing. So be it.

Tell us about Yield of Dreams because you've got your baseball field behind you, and I'd love for my listeners to know the story. I know you're a huge fan of the movie Field of Dreams, and Kevin Costner is his starring role in that. And I know that a lot of what you've done in this next chapter of your life right now is kind of inspired by that and the financial experience that you've had. So tell us about what Yield of Dreams is.

I appreciate that question, and I think there's such a great similarity between how you and I approach life. You know, you approach life as a lifestyle investor saying, I'm going to set myself up so I can be in control and do what I love to do. And in your case, it's deal making, right? Finding deals and cutting deals. That's kind of your baseball field. You know, for me, I had two choices when I graduated high school. I was going to go to New York and be a starving actor with all my acting friends. And you talked about having a mentor, and I stumbled on a mentor. My dad gave me a great piece of advice that I give every parent to give to their kids. He said to me while I was in college, why don't you call up other successful business people in our community, take them out to lunch and find out how they were so successful. What a great idea. So he helped me make a list of 10 people. One of them happened to be in the financial and insurance world. His name, Hillard Aronson. And at the time, I had just studied in London at the school Economics. I'm home, I got to take a semester off. I'm waiting tables because I'm a starving actor, and I take these people out to lunch. And Hillard says to me, so what are you doing? I said, I'm waiting tables. I'm going to go back, finish my last semester, and then I'm going to go to New York to be a starving actor. And he was like, oh, how charming. And he says to me, why don't you come work for me during the day? And I said, doing what? He said, I'll teach you the life insurance business. And I'm thinking, oh, every kid's dream come true. I'm going to learn the life insurance business. I mean, what kid says growing up, I want to learn how to sell whole life and universal life insurance when I'm bigger, right? No, I want to be an astronaut. I want to be a cowboy, right? I want to be an entrepreneur. But he was so smart. So just, I ended up working five days a week for him for four months waiting tables six nights a week because I want to make money. And when I went back to school, he said, kid, give me a call when you graduate. I'm going to start a district office and I want you to come work for me. And I'm like, yeah, right, I'm going to New York. Well, as it turned out, I was a chicken. Boop. You know, when it was time to go to New York and be a starving actor, I was like, huh? And instead I came back to the boom metropolis, Springfield, Mass. Put on a suit and tie and started cold calling. And those first three years were brutal. I like to tell people, going to New York, waiting tables, auditioning and waiting for my big break would have been so much easier than going in the life insurance business as a 21 year old who didn't know anybody and failed MassMutual's aptitude test. But I did it because I think like you, I was just tenacious. Somebody said, you're going to fail. And I just said, I'm not. But I always had in my gut this notion like you did. Your notion was, I'm going to.

Figure out a way to have income come in so I can do whatever I want. For me, it wasn't the income. It was, I'm going to find a way that I can go be an actor, a performer, an entertainer, and still grow my business at the same time. There it is. And that's what the show is all about. The show is all about, what did you want to be when you grew up? What are you now? What happened? Why aren't you living your passion? Here's my story of how I built a successful financial consulting business and then started taking three, four, five months off a year from my business to pursue my acting passion. And in the process, the more time I took off, the more money I made in my business.

Well, isn't that exciting? You figured some things out?

Well, yeah. And in my show, I call it, I discovered how to bend time.

That has a catchy ring to it.

And, you know, I tapped into what I call personal economics. What happened was most people would say, wait a minute, you're going to take three months away from your business, you're going to pursue your acting, you're going to keep growing your business? What? How does that work? And in 1987, I did. I took three months off to do summer theater. They paid me, I'm 31 years old, just, they paid me $25 a week plus room and board.

And I like to say, if you Give an actor a place to eat and sleep, we don't even want the money.

That's great.

I also remind people that Travolta, when he did Pulp Fiction, nobody knew who he was. And Tarantino, who did Pulp Fiction, you know what Travolta got paid? He got a can of beans, and Torrentino took him to a Scientology meeting. That's what he paid him.

But at the end of that year, 1988, after taking three months off from working in my financial business, I made $50,000 more working nine months than I did the year before, working 12.

That's incredible. So how did you bend time? What's your key to doing this for our listeners that want to figure out how they might be able to do that in their business?

Yeah, really great question. So people see time as a linear phenomenon. 60 seconds in a minute, 60 minutes in an hour, 24 hours in a day, seven. Right. That's time. It's fixed. It's finite. You can't change it. But what people don't do is prioritize time. And what happened for me was, and here's the law of personal economics. Time is a commodity. It has value. You understand this. You're the lifestyle investor. You want more of that value. You actually created more time for yourself. How can that be? There's only 24 hours in a day. You actually created more hours in your day, didn't you, by creating revenue to free yourself up? What happened for me is I started to value my time more. So most people waste time. They're just wasting their time because they're waiting for someday, one day life is going to turn out, and they're not. I don't. I was going to use the word maniacal, but they're not really. They're in this linear world. What I discovered is something Einstein discovered, which is time is relative. You know, E equals MC squared. What is that? It's relative to your experience. You know that expression, time flies when you're having fun, and you get more done in less time when you're doing what you love? That was my discovery. So there I was, performing, doing what I loved as an actor, getting paid shit, right? I mean, eventually I got my union card, so now they had to pay me more than a can of beans. But for the most part, every dollar that the theaters paid me, I donated back to the theater. I was so happy that they were paying me to perform at a very high level. What happened was, when I came back into my business, most people do the urgent. They don't do the important. They're reacting rather than commanding how their time's going to be used. So I got very, very focused. You know how you look at deals and you have a filter. You even. We didn't talk about this, but I'm so sorry we didn't talk about mindset, structure and filter because it was in your last email to me. But it's so brilliant. You've got a mindset and a structure and then a filter. And that's what happened for me. I became a filter for. Not that, not that, not that, that. So whereas most people in my business would meet with anybody and everybody, I was like, not you, not you. Not. That's the best opportunity. And here's why. During that year, that summer, the only day I had to work was Monday. Theater's dark on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. I'm doing Shakespeare in repertory theater for three months. I have one day, Monday, to accomplish my mission. Mindset, filter, structure. You've said it perfectly well.

Thank you. And I love your application of it. It's so great. When I think about you and the lifestyle that you've built, Charlie, it's incredible. You don't have to work, you've built a successful business. This business runs with or without you, which is really a testament to the way that you've built it and to the vision that you had. But what I think is the most important is that you didn't stop working. You're still doing the aspects of it that you really love to do, working with the people that you're closest with that you enjoy the most. But at the same time, you're freeing up your time so that you can spend it inside your passions like comedy and keeping the arts and theater still relevant in your world. I mean, you don't have to do that. You have the pleasure of getting to do that. And I just think it's cool that your life by design has yielded to steal from your yield of dreams has yielded the results that you have.

Yeah. And I think that's what both you and I are trying to teach people. What's your passion? And how can you, the expression I use, live a life with an infectious spirit bound, freedom for wonderment, joy, laughter and play and discovery for discovery's sake. So I think, like you, I wake up every day and I say, what am I going to discover today? Could be good, could be bad. And then having that filter where you're able to say, not that, not that that's interesting. Not that, not that that's interesting. And staying in your lane, right? Staying in your lane. Like, I don't do deals for my clients like you do. I do deals for myself. And I stay in my lane when it comes to how I articulate people's goals and objectives and then help them financially create that paycheck for life, which is the title of my first book, Paychecks for Life, so they can have a paycheck for life in my lane. What I love so much is being able to introduce you to the people I'm doing business with, because you provide something that would be of value as well. And I think that's the whole richness of when you're living your values and you're living your dreams at the same time. Pinch me.

That's right.

Wait a minute.

And you. And I know it takes a lot to get there. It's a lot of.

Thank you.

Next. And the acting. I tell people the reason I went back into acting is I wasn't getting enough rejection selling life insurance. Thank you. Next. You know the hardest thing people don't understand? When you audition for a show, you have two minutes. You walk out onto a stage. These people have never met you. They may not even be watching you during your two minutes. And you got two minutes to grab somebody and get them to go, oh, that was interesting. We might want to see that. It's a bitch.

Yeah, no kidding. I mean, you have to have some sort of sizzle or some sort of appeal. You've got one moment to do it in. You know, it's kind of the whole thing of, like, as an applicant, where you're interviewing against, you know, a thousand other people. What can you do inside of 30 seconds to stand out? And maybe it's more like inside of 10 seconds.

Well, no. Is a constant in every world, but in the theatrical world, 95% all actors are unemployed. I mean, now it's even worse because of COVID Right? But it's like, I had a commercial agent, and for years, I audition for TV commercials. It took me 60 no's to book my first commercial. 60 no. And people are like, why don't you stop? I said, I really wasn't doing it for the money. I was trying to crack the code, you know? Crack the code.

You did Persistence, right?

Yeah. Stupidity, I guess.

Well, you know, you and I started our podcasts around the same time, which is so fun. And it's been great watching your evolution as a podcaster, as an interviewer, and it's been really fun watching your passion and enjoyment for your show. Really Kind of seep out and come out. And I see it. I see you light up as you're doing your show. I see you light up when you do your standup comedy bits. I just think it's fantastic to see you living in alignment with this life by design, not a life by default. Not just walking through life, reacting to what happens, but intentionally saying, this is what I want my life to look like. And in order to get there, I need to do these things. And I recognize how I'm wired, so I'm going to do it in this way. And now you're living a true lifestyle that is in harmony with what it was that you desired all these years. I just think it's incredible. And I applaud you for being able to crack the code of that, too.

Thanks. You know, the most fun and I'm so grateful and blessed is that, first of all, we have clients that have been clients for 40 years. So, you know, that's lifetime client relationships and seeing those evolutions. But now, by design, I was going to tell you, we have this deck of cards that we give people. It's called deal yourself into the life you desire. I call them our desirement cards. But we tried to gamify the whole financial planning process. So instead of you getting a questionnaire and having to answer all these questions you're never going to answer, we send you a deck of playing cards for you and your spouse. There's three sets in the deck. The first set is 20 cards that are your priority goals now. Get out of debt, pay off mortgage, buy a second home, take a whatever. So we got 20 cards with 20 priority goals, 20 cards that are your desirement dreams. What do you really. What are your big dreams? And then 14 cards that are your myths about money. And we've identified these myths that people have about their money that I think you've run into when you're doing deals with people that prevent people from being free to access.

And leverage the assets that they have. For example, this notion that my home needs to be paid off when I retire for me to be happy.

My mother's 93, Justin, and she still has a mortgage.

That's fantastic. We're in such agreement on that.

It's all about the vig and the spread. We didn't get into it on your podcast, but I try and teach people the vig and the spread. I've been the founder of two community banks. It's all about the spread. You know that. And people are, like, hardwired. And there's my mother, 93, she lives now in an assisted living. She has her own apartment. We took a mortgage out on that. She sits with her friends pre Covid and they're all like, yeah, our homes are paid off. And my mother says, oh, I still have a mortgage. And they say, you have a mortgage? Who the hell is your financial advisor? And my mother goes, my son, would you like to meet him? And they're like, hell no.

That's awesome.

Meanwhile, that debt asset, that debt equity we've put to work for these 40, 50 years.

That's incredible.

Yeah.

And you've been. So I want our listeners to hear this. You've been in the financial services industry for I think 41 years. Right. And so you've got 40 plus year old clients.

I'm sorry, what did you say? How many years? I can't hear you.

Well, I tell you, you've done some great work. Here's what I want to know for our audience. I know what the spread is. I want to know.

How you would.

Define the vig and the spread. And in a way that might make sense to listeners that maybe this isn't their specialty.

So keep it simple. I like to tell people. First of all, I'll ask people, do you know how the banking industry works? Because they go, no.

Isn't it amazing? You go to the bank, what happens?

I deposit money in my checking and savings account. And what do they give you in return? Nothing. Oh, so you're going to a parking lot. So first thing is a bank is nothing more than like, you pull up with your car to a parking lot, they give you a ticket. What do you hope for when you come back? That my car will be there. And then they make you pay for having stored your car. That's what you do when you put money in a bank. But how does the banking industry work? So I try and teach people about being the banker in their life and understanding the flow of money like you do. So I just tell them story. I said, look, in 2008, August of 2008, a bunch of entrepreneurs, myself got together and we decided we were going to start the first community bank in Massachusetts in 16 years. I'll make this quick. It's August of 2008. What happened in September of 2008?

We had some trouble.

The financial meltdown. There we are. We just started our bank a month ago. Now, what was the good news? I could go to the Federal Reserve and borrow money at zero interest rate, which, oh, by the way, is exactly what I could do today as a Bank. And people are like, what do you mean? I said, well, the Fed Reserve prints money. They loan it to banks to loan it to you. That's how money gets in the system. That's the Federal Reserve System. And a bank makes money on the spread. What's that? They borrow money at zero, they turn around and loan it to you at 4, 15 and 23%. They pay their overhead, and whatever's left over is the spread, or what the mob calls the vig.

Now, where could you be a banker and be in the spread business? Dave Ramsey says I need to pay all my debt off. Susie Orman says I need to pay all my debt off. Well, stop listening to them. I'm the Antichrist to the two of them. Now, you want to pay off your bad debt. Bad debt is interest at 18, 23% that nobody else will pay for you. So the other thing we try and teach people is opm, which, you know, other people's money. We have them watch the movie. There you go. So we want to use opm, usm, and the vigor, the spread. Wait a minute, Charlie. What's usm? That's Uncle Sam's money. Now, I wrote a book called Paychecks for Life. How to Turn youn 401k into a Paycheck Manufacturing Company. We run hundreds of retirement plans around the country. We educate participants on why they should maximize that. It's all about Uncle Sam and opm. You put a dollar in the plan, your employer matches you dollar for dollar. You just got other people's money. And if they match you dollar for dollar, that's 100% return. If you put the money in pre tax, Uncle Sam just underwrote 20 or 30 or 40%, depending upon your tax bracket. Now you're up 130%. There it is.

Now you got an assets called your home. You're working to pay it off because you don't want to pay interest because you think interest and debt is bad. Good debt, bad debt.

I can get the bank to give me money. I can get Uncle Sam to let me write off the interest. Why would I leave? And then, of course, you and I know, you ask somebody, what is the equity in your home earn every second of every day. And when you watch people do the math, they'll go 7%, 5%. How about nothing? It's a dead asset. So what if we pull that money out.

Got it to be deductible by Uncle Sam, and you put it someplace else and you made even more money? That's the vig. And the spread and leverage.

I love your explanation of it. You make it so much fun. And that's it. I mean, this is the deal. You're going to get the appraise. Let's just talk about appreciation, all right? You're going to get appreciation whether you owe your home in full or you partially own your home. You have just a little bit of equity in your home. It's all the same. So your point makes tons of sense. And I'm with you in total alignment because I think people should put as little down for their home as they can because, well, there's a few reasons for it. Number one, you've got more cash to be able to earn a better return. And we're at all time lows for mortgages, mortgage interest rates. But at the same time, the less equity you own in your home, the less of a threat you are to foreclosure. Banks are gonna take the homes that have most of the equity paid first because that's the better return. So if someone has 80% equity in their home and they have defaulted on their mortgage, the bank's coming after them before the person that only has 5% equity in their home. And I think that's an important point.

It is. But you know what people say? They say, well, I don't wanna have a payment because if I don't have a payment, then I have less expenses. I said, well, you're looking at it as a payment, not an investment. Yeah, we just refinanced a piece of real estate we have out in Park City, a townhouse that we own. Took advantage of lower rates, took advantage of the appreciation. You know, this pulled the equity out. It's still. Now it's interest only for 15 years. It's fricking. I'm deducting all the interest in a 40% tax bracket. And now I have 500,000 in my hand to figure out where can I get a better vig, a better return. The condos townhouse is still going to appreciate whether there's equity in it or not. That's what people don't understand. Right. So those are some of the myths. My home is an investment, not I need to have my mortgage paid off when I retire, not I'll be in a lower tax bracket when I retire. Yeah, how's that going to work out over the next 10, 20, 30 years? Not right. So we've identified these myths and it's important, Justin, because I say to people, look, my job isn't to change your myth. All I want to do is hold it up in the light and see if it still makes sense for the lifestyle that you want to design.

Yeah.

And who came up with the myth? Is this your myth, or is it someone else's that you bought into their belief? There's a very good likelihood that somehow you adopted this as your own, subconsciously, unconsciously. But it was someone else who was uneducated in that space that you learned it from.

Your parents. Parents. Parents. Parents. Parents. Parents. Neighbor's dog.

That's right.

Go ahead.

Go ahead.

No, I was going to say the other part of this is reprogramming people's idea of retirement. First of all, Webster's definition of retirement is to put something out of use. So my industry, the financial services industry, spends billions and billions of dollars a year advertising to put people out of use. The retirement red zone, the retirement green zone. I mean, it's crazy. So we've trademarked and registered something we call the desirement planning process and desirement years. So what I like to say is I don't know anybody who's working their tail off to one day someday be put out of use. I think we're all working so that we can create a paycheck for life to pay for all the things we desire to do, which is what you've done as the lifestyle investor. So I tell people when they first meet me that they shouldn't work with me. Bad idea. And they go, wait a minute. You've been highly recommended. I said, well, what do you think my biggest job is as a financial advisor? And what do people say to help them retire? Help me save and invest my money so I have enough money at retirement? I go, nope, that's the guy you're working with right now. See, my biggest job after 41 years of doing this is to get you to spend your money right now.

Because you don't know how to enjoy your money. I don't care if you're 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, or 93 like my mother, this is also the healthiest you're ever going to be. And if you don't build a habit of learning how to enjoy it along the way, you will never suddenly have this habit in your desirement years. And that is a total mind shift. So I start working with people about, what do you desire to do right now that you're not doing? And it could be as small as, we haven't had a vacation in five years. I'm like, what? True. By the way, this was two doctor clients of mine making over a Million dollars. They hadn't taken a vacation in five years.

Wow.

I said, well, I ain't working with you unless you take a vacation in the next two months.

That's awesome.

And they're like, we want to work with you.

Well, that's cool. Your approach is unique and it's different and I love it. I just love the desirement instead of retirement. And I talk to people all the time about why wait until this one day where you might be able to retire and you might have your health and you might have good relationships. But what likely is going to happen is you've worked so hard and haven't spent time with the people that matter most in the quantity that you should. You've probably not worked out in a way that is beneficial to you from a physical, mental, emotional or intellectual standpoint. And so you're not even in a place to enjoy it. Why not just enjoy it now? And that's exactly what you're talking about. And to double up on what we were talking about prior to this when we were talking about debt and using that to your advantage, a lot of people, like, let's say that you had sold your property, Charlie, you would owe 40% as you said, in taxes on that. But because you took out debt, you owe zero dollars in taxes. And then you can still make the spread and that's pure profit. And you can get this money at such a low rate right now there are so many vehicles where you can make a great return. You don't have to kill it. All you have to do is make some of the spread. And if you have a three point spread. So one of the things I talk to people about in the real estate world is if you're buying at a think about the cap rate and the interest rate. And this is a spread as well. Just a different example, you're talking about the spread and different interest rates, which is very real. In real estate, you've got to spread between the cap rate and the interest rate for the note or mortgage that you're going to hold. And as long as you have a three point spread, that's a 20% cash on cash return. I mean, that is really significant. And if you can just keep finding a way to achieve that spread, that is unbelievable. But let's even take it a few steps back. Let's say that it's just 3% return on two different interest rates. You've got a mortgage at 2.5% or let's even just call it 3%. Maybe someone can't get the newest lows, you're at 3%, but you've got this return over here at 6%. That's a 3% profit or a 3% arbitrage, or a 3% spread on that investment. And that's real money.

It's even higher because I got USM working for me. That 3% interest rate, I get to write 90% of it off.

That's right.

My mortgage Debt is under 750,000 total. I get to write out, it's all interest. So now I got Uncle Sam coming in and saying, hey, hey, hey, we'll cover 40% of that 3%. So now my cost of money isn't 3, you know, it's now 2.8.

That's right.

Well, my dad retired at 68. He moved to Florida to build a house of his dreams on the golf course of his dreams. And he was going to pay cash. I tell this story in a video and in my Myths of Money series. But I went to him, I said, pop, you're going to put $100,000 down. I want you to go to the bank and take out a mortgage. My dad said, how long? I said, 30 years. He said, what are you crazy? I'll be dead before it's paid off. I said, pop, what do you care? You'll be dead. He said, what's your mother gonna do? I said, well, she doesn't play golf and she doesn't play Marjan. So the day you die, I'm going to sell this place and move her back north, you know. So I said, he came back. He said, I can get a 30 year mortgage at 5%. You're in a 40% tax bracket. Your net cost to borrow is 3. Pop, if I can't make you more than 3 in that 400,000, fire me as your financial advisor. We averaged 7 to 8% modestly. Okay? Nothing high risk. The day he died, I called my mother up. She said, I'm packed. You need to sell this place. Now here's the moral. We were only able to sell that $500,000 home for 400,000. Whoa. Because the real estate market was oversaturated where he was and nobody wanted to be on a golf course. So if they had paid cash, we would have been out $100,000. Wow. I moved my mom back north. She's 79 years old. We built her a house in over 50 community. And my mother looks at me and she says, do I get to take out a mortgage at 79? I went, Atta girl, Mom.

That's Great.

Yeah.

It's so smart using other people's money here. I love using bank money. I think it's brilliant. And I'm so glad that you agree with that because a lot of people, you know, we talked about this earlier, but there's two different camps. You've got the camp of how do I get out of debt? That's Dave Ramsey. That's Suze Orman. That's. And I think Dave Ramsey is fantastic at what he does. I put this in my book. I think he's really good at getting people out of debt. But he's not teaching people how to build wealth. He's teaching people how to get out of debt. His strategies are great for getting out of debt, but you can't use his strategies to build wealth. You really need to use and model people that have built wealth from the thing that they're preaching to model after brilliant.

And it goes back to that structure that you have. Mindset, structure and fulfillment. Hey, you got to have a. You have to be. I go back to what I say. You have to be willing to discover for discovery's sake in life. You know, so many people are closed, and this is just the way it is. Okay, next, you know, they're not. They're not going to change their attitude. But for somebody that's willing to open up and say, oh, oh, I can see this possibility, how we're going to get there, and then you put baby bumpers. So in my industry, whether it's collars or protection or guarantees.

I'm dealing with a different clientele 90% of the time, because they're not going to go out and do deals like you do or I do on my own. They just want to know incrementally they're going to get to where they need to be on time and safely, just what our role is for the most part.

Yeah, that makes sense. So something we talked about before are some of the mentors in your life. I've shared some of my mentors. I'd love for you to share some of your mentors because you've had several people that have been very influential to you. And I just believe that your success is in a large part tied to your peer group and those you choose to surround yourself with, whether you recognize it or not, but especially when you are proactive enough to bring mentors into your life.

I think you talking about mentorship when I interview is so critical. I mean, I was lucky that my father made me go out and find a mentor. And I mean, Hillary was You know, those first 15 years in business were tough. And he was there for me. And the way he was there for me is he kept reminding me how good I was. Every time I forgot how good and capable I was, he kept reminding me that's what a really good mentor just keeps returning yourself to yourself and showing you the light and the success. So I owe an immense amount of my success to Hillard. I go back to my, you know, my grandparents. My grandfather was a successful accountant. I used to watch him with his cup of black coffee and his cigar and a big smile like, you know, he knew the secret of life. And then my father wasn't a risk taker yet he was an entrepreneur. So there was that interesting dichotomy. And I watched him struggle with that. And my mother, you know, being the performer in the house, you know, everything was vibrant, everything. And Even now at 93, everything's a show. We just, my mom and I put on shows all the time. Once I got into business like you, I had a huge appetite for reading. I remember I used to go across to the Massmutual agency and there'd be a file cabinet in the back and I would just go through this file cabinet and there's all this information. They had direct marketing, all that. I tried everything. I mean, if there was a marketing idea. Mail out at Atlas come to your doorstep. One of my oldest friends and clients, I mailed her out this reply thing for an Atlas. She's one of my longest, dearest friends and clients for life. All that kind of silly stuff, just trying and experimenting. I watched the top advisors in my industry and then getting involved in the industry. So member of Top of the Table and Million Dollar Roundtable and my still affiliated with MassMutual and their groups. I got involved in the 401k world. Anytime you can go and listen to other people speak, it's priceless. They're going to give you a shortcut today. Podcasts, reading books on audiobooks, whatever it is. Like you, I'm constantly. And then lately one of the biggest mentors for me was my coach, Dan Sullivan. I've been working with Dan for 25 years. I'm one of his favorite clients because I'm what he calls a slow learner with deep pockets. I just keep writing checks. Okay, maybe next year I'll figure it out. You know, people are like, 25 years, haven't you figured it out? Yeah. Watch how exponentially my life has expanded. Last year I took 180 day free days. You know, while I'm Writing this show while I'm running this business couldn't be better.

That's incredible.

Dan Sullivan is my entrepreneurial coach. Kim White is my energy coach. And an energy coach is somebody who gets you unblocked from bad energy in the world. Kim has been a genius. Swami Kalashar, who I talk about in Yield of Dreams, is, for lack of better word, guru, who I met many, many years ago, who had an amazing impact on my life. He's not of human form anymore, so it's a spiritual connection. This is a podcast for another time. But I tell people there's so much that we are not aware of in life as humans. And whatever you call God, you know, whatever God is for you and everybody, it's different. I've always been. You know, I believe in one God, but I also believe in spirituality. And I believe that the angels and God will talk to you if you have ears to listen. And that's why I do yoga every morning. I meditate every morning. It's that thing you talked about, taking time for yourselves. And that's when I have conversations that are spiritually and enlightening. Those are those moments when I have ears. And you got to be open and you got to have ears for the angels to talk to you, because they are talking every day.

Well, I couldn't agree more. And I just love that as kind of an end note to our interview, because it's so eloquent and poetic and so true. You know, I do believe God's listening, and I believe that, you know, we should be talking to him. And I just think that there's so much value in not only the conversation, but in the space to listen. And I just think that is so profound. So thank you for sharing.

Yeah, I appreciate that. And the one thing, you know this, too, because the work you are doing coaching others, it is. Is your purpose bigger than who you are, beyond your money and your success and your ego and everything like that. I mean, for me, my mission, I tell people my ministry in life, is to ease their pain and suffering about their money. That's what yielded Dreams is all about. That's what the show is all about. That's what the work we do here at Epstein Financial. It's. If I can ease people's pain and suffering about their money so they can access wonderment, joy, laughter, and play and fascination and their desirements.

Bam. We got our job done.

That's fantastic, Charlie. Where can our listeners and those watching the show find you to learn more?

Thanks. I appreciate that. So you can go to Yield of Dreams at the Apple Store or itunes. Please download our app and listen to our podcast. You can go to Epstein Financial E P S T e I n financial.com that's our financial planning website. And you can actually download and get a free set of the desirement cards. And then CharlieEpstein.com is our media site. So if you want anything you want to see from a media point of view, tv, radio, podcasting, it's on that site as well. Appreciate it.

Well, that's fantastic. Well, I'm so excited about this episode and everything that we've discussed and just thrilled about all that you have going on.

Remember what they say, if you build it, he will come. Keep building it, baby. Keep building it.

That's awesome. We will end on that. Thanks so much Charlie.

Thank you. Appreciate it.

Thanks for listening. Listening to the Lifestyle Investor Podcast if you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe so future episodes are automatically downloaded directly to your device. You can also leave an honest rating and review over on itunes. Not only do I read every single one, but it also helps me understand what content matters the most to our audience. And if you can think of one or two people who could benefit from this episode, would you share it with them right now? Who knows? Maybe they'll buy you something nice when they make their first million. If you would like access to today's show notes, including links to all the resources mentioned, visit www.justindonald.com podcast. Thanks again for listening and I'll catch you next week for another episode of the Lifestyle Investor.