How to Create Something from Nothing with Charlie Epstein

Welcome to the Retire as you desire podcast and I'm your host, Bill Bloom and I'm going to take you on this financial journey with the Retire as you desire lifestyle. And here's what that means for you. It means that you're going to learn how to live a purposeful and passion filled money lifestyle and also is going to teach you how to buy back your time, which is our most valuable asset. Every Monday we're going to have a new money Monday session where we talk about real live money events that are going on in our world today. And on Thursdays I interview very high level successful entrepreneurs and business owners and really get the details about their journeys, about what made them successful. So tune in every single Monday and Thursday for new episodes and you could learn how you can retire as you desire@www.retireasyoudesire.com.

Welcome back to the retire as you desire podcast and I have another fellow strategic coach member on the show today, Charlie Epstein, who's holding this magnificent baseball bat at the Yield of Dreams. So Charlie, thank you so much for being with us today.

Thank you. Love being here. It was really fun having you on our Yield of Dreams podcast and now I'm looking forward to having you tell me how I can retire as I desire. We got so much in common.

I know. It's remarkable that we haven't been connected before through a coach because you have been in there for a very long time and I've been in there for quite a few years now as well. So I'm surprised it took us this long to connect.

Yeah, that's a pretty big group.

That's very true. Very, very true. And the one thing that I really took away from you when I was on your show, which everyone, I definitely think you should check out the Yield of Dreams podcast. I love it and you have great guests on there too, is the fact that you love performing. I could tell you're a performer. You really thrive when you're on stage. And at what age did you realize that that was going to be part of your life and you wanted to be performing because you come from a rich history of performers in your family.

My mother says that when I was born and the doctor held me up, everybody laughed in the delivery room. So that was my first big laugh.

So, you know, from there.

It was just, you know, it's interesting, right? We're all.

Born with the same.

Hands and feet and mind and brain. And isn't it interesting what impacts us when we're growing up? And I was the youngest of Three. So you know, the youngest is always fighting for attention. My parents used to say, now remember, I was born in 1957, so I'm 64 years old. So we didn't have iPhones and we didn't have digital cameras and you know, it was a Kodak camera. So you know, that cost money. And then you had to take the pictures and you had to drop them in the mail and then you had to wait for them to be developed. It was a whole experience. But by the time you get to the third child, nobody really cared, nobody wanted to take any pictures. So.

Oh boy, I bet there's a ton of pictures of you laying around somewhere. I know that whenever we go to my parents house, there's a million of them. But you're right, you had to go get them developed and it cost money, so.

Exactly. But you know, I grew up in a, you know, middle class home. My father was an entrepreneur. He had his own women's clothing store called Deb's. So he was all, you know, retail, you're working long hours. My mother was a opera singer who became a homemaker, you know, raising three kids and you know, dealing with that insanity. But she still, probably when I was 4 or 5, she was still doing some opera because I remember at 4 going to see her in a show. But she sang in the local. She actually was the sang at our temple and at a local church.

And so she was very involved in that all while I was growing up. So that kind of was an influence, those two worlds, the entertainment world and the entrepreneurial world.

So what was it like growing up in that entrepreneurial world? Cause I did not grow up in that. It was the nine to five, you know, maybe you kept your job, maybe you didn't when things got tough. So what was it like growing up in that environment?

You know, it's interesting cause my, my mother's father was a starving artist and painter. My grandfather, Henry Bertain, he was concert master Radio City Music hall in the 1920s. But they always lived hand to mouth.

And my father's father, Max Epstein, was a very successful accountant in Hartford, Connecticut. And growing up as a young boy we used to go to the country club and all his clients were entrepreneurs, very successful business people. And back then you had the Jewish country club and you had the Protestant country club in the Irish country. So. But I was always in awe of my grandfather and grandmother. They had a big house and you know, my grandmother had a, had a mink or a fox coat, you know, and grandfather always smoked this Cigar and drank the black coffee, and they were waited on like the king and queen of the country club because he was the founder, you know. So as a young boy, of course, I could get all the Shirley Temples or Roy Rogers I wanted. But I always remember there was that one room, I think it was the card room. And I always was like, you know, what's going on in there? And finally one day he brought me in. It's where all the cronies were smoking and playing cards and all that kind of stuff.

And they always had amazing parties. And then my dad's friends were all they grew up with. They all were entrepreneurs, so they all had businesses. And I remember growing up, my parents just always had great parties at the house, and everybody dressed, you know, like, I'm in this sports coat right now. So if this goes out as a podcast or a live cast. And, you know, being that all their friends were in the retail business, you know, they always dressed to the nines.

But, you know, back then in the six 50s and 60s, everybody had a cocktail and a cigarette.

You know, it was a different era, but the energy was palpable. So there was this contrast between the entrepreneurial world and the excitement around that and then the toughness of the entertainment world. And not that the entrepreneurial world wasn't tough, because my dad worked long hours. But I never got a sense, like, we were struggling because there was always just enough. Like I said, we were probably middle class, lower middle class, had a very, very small house when I was young. Then we moved to a more affluent neighborhood in Massachusetts here in Longmeadow, Mass.

So, yeah, it was a very interesting contrast. So it drove me in both ways growing up. I wanted to be an entrepreneur, but I wanted to be an entertainer.

And I think you've married both of those so incredibly well. And we'll get to that in a moment, because I want to talk a little bit more about when you started your career. You saw your father work super long hours. Retail is not an easy business. And you started working in the insurance world, as did I when I started my career.

I mean, our tales are like, you know, twin brothers of different mothers, right?

Absolutely.

But I will tell you this, you know, because, like, I had an older sister and I had an older brother who are both PhDs. You know, they're very bright people.

Are they entrepreneurs?

No, no, they're. Well, my brother is. Now he has his own consulting company in Beijing. Wow, China. And my sister ended up getting her PhD in anatomy and is a doctor's doctor. And worked in the, and worked in the pharmaceutical world. So they're brilliant, brilliant, book smart, brilliant people. They're just not street smart.

And When I was 12 or 13, I started my own landscaping business in my town that I grew up. So I had like 10 lawns that I would mow for $10. You know, this is 1962, 3 64. So I'm making like $100 a week cash.

And man, this is great. And then I started collecting comic books and movie memorabilia and going to comic conferences in New York city. I'm like 16 years old with a buddy of mine going to New York for five days with some guy who ran this comic gallery. And like, my parents were like, oh sure, go, go to New York. You know, you're 16 years old, wow. I mean, I look back on that and I'm like, I say to my mother, why did you let me go? You know, I had two other children, so if I lost one, it didn't really matter.

But think about it. I'm 16 years old with my buddy Andy. You know, we're wheeling, dealing, selling comic books by day and you know, on the streets in New York City, staying at the Hotel Commodore with some guy and his one eyed girlfriend that my parents didn't really know, but they were like, sure, you can go down there with Dick Sykes.

So it was very, very different. There was that entrepreneurial spirit that I just caught on very, very young. So you're going to talk about working long hours.

I guess for me it was never about the hours.

It was about producing a result, you know, creating something from nothing. That's the entrepreneurial mindset and figuring things out.

And you do it on the fly. Because I remember I was mowing lawns and one day some guy said, hey, have you ever built a brick patio? No, but I'll figure it out. Have you ever poured concrete and made a concrete step? No, but I'll figure it out. That's the entrepreneurial spirit.

It definitely is. And that's what's made our country the most abundant country in the world.

Hello.

Absolutely.

And are we going to go there? Are we going to go there?

Ooh, how much time do we have? We could talk about that forever.

Woof. Yeah.

Talking about creating something from nothing. You said something to me when we were talking on your show about being the cold calling king. This really stood out to me. I've been thinking about this a lot and it goes into that. Long hours, creating something from nothing. I mean, did your father's passion for his business help Transcend your passion into the financial world at that time, when you first started.

You know, it's interesting because my dad never talked about work when he came home.

I mean, I would overhear conversations with my mother. And of course, at the parties, you know, I was always kind of trying to listen in and, you know, because I was in awe of these people.

But he never really. He never really talked about it much. And my dad was a very quiet guy.

But driven in his own way. So.

I think that's kind of interesting.

When I went to college, I was an economics major who lived in the theater. Like, I can remember my freshman year, my dad saying, because I was in theater pretty much from the time I did my first comedy routine when I was in sixth grade for a talent show. And, you know, then in high school, I was in plays and played in the band and played music, you know. And when I got to college, I ended up going to Colgate University, which really didn't have a theater major.

Because.

I went to get an education. My parents wanted me to get an education, but I lived in the theater. And I remember my freshman year, my dad said, what's your major going to be? And I went, well, if I'm an English major, I can minor in the theater. And my dad said, yeah, that and a cup of coffee will get you 50 cents if you're lucky. I immediately went, you know what? I'll be an economics major and I'll just live in the theater. So that's literally how I became an economics major. And then I just was in every show.

On campus that I could be in, you know, including directing my own show and all that. So, you know, there I was trafficking in those both worlds. And when I graduated college, I had two choices. I could move to New York with all my acting friends and be a starving actor. But my junior year, I took a semester off because I studied at the school Economics in London, came home and had to take a semester off. So I'm waiting tables at night, and this is where my dad was instrumental in my life. He said, you know, why don't you make a list of very successful business people here in town and call them up and take them to lunch and ask them why they're so successful. This was the one thing that made an enormous impact in my life, and he helped me make a list. And one of them was a gentleman by the name of Hillard Aronson, who, unbeknownst to me, was going to become my mentor. And he was in the life insurance industry. And we went out to lunch and he said, well, what are you doing? I said, well, I'm waiting tables to put money together. I'm going to go back, finish my last semester and go to New York and be an actor. He said, what are you doing during the day? I said, sleeping.

He said, why don't you come to work for me during the day? I said, and do what? He said, I'll teach you the guts of the life insurance business. Like every kid's dream, right? I want to be an astronaut, I want to be a cowboy, I want to learn to sell whole life and universal life insurance. So I went in and I worked one day the first week, two days the next week. And by the third week I was working five days a week for him and waiting table six nights a week. Wow. And he taught me the guts of the insurance business. Like, who knows what a paid up addition is at 19.

Who knows what cash value is at 19? Who knows what the difference between term and whole life? Who knows how to run an illustration, by the way? There were no illustrations. You had a rate manual and you created an illustration on a pad of paper, my friend. Something you never had to go through. I had a calculator, a rate manual and a pad of paper and I created an illustration compliance nightmare. Anyways, so as I was headed back to school, he said, you know, call me when you graduate. I'm going to set up a district office and I want you to come work for me. And I was like, yeah, right, I'm going to New York.

I'm going to be a movie star.

But.

I don't know the entrepreneur in me, you know, I came back and I went to work for him, put on a suit and tie and became the cold call king. My first three years.

And during those first three years, do you ever look back and think about were you on stage because you had to perform to get those results to create that something out of nothing? I mean, was that a big part of you're thinking when you go back to look at those times?

Well, you know, we all have our baked in DNA. Just most people aren't aware of what their baked in DNA is. And you know, you, you, you're either aware or you're unaware of what you're doing. And it's great. It's a combination like as you struggled through your business and we talked on my podcast. So I come back to the booming metropolis of Springfield, Massachusetts. I'm 21, I'm right out of college, I don't know anybody I'm not married. And he's affiliated with Massmutual. And I got to take this aptitude test. And Bill, I am proud to say that in the history of Massmutual, nobody has ever gotten a score.

As low as I got.

No way.

I got a 2 out of 100.

Okay, tell me more about that.

How's that possible?

Because I'm 21.

I'm out of college, I'm not married, I'm a failure in the eyes of the insurance business. Back this was 1979. September 1979.

I get a 2 out of 100. It's pretty damn good. I'm still proud of that. It's the lowest score in the history of MassMutual since 1851. So the general agent says, well, I'm not going to give you a financing contract, which is a draw. And my.

Mentor Hillard says, don't worry about it. Just stick with me and I'll get you through.

I had no market, I had no inventory, I had nobody. So I would literally go to apartment complexes where young entrepreneurs were moving in, write down all the names on the door. Then I would call information. And back in 1980, you could get a live person on the phone and ask for three phone numbers.

So suddenly I had 190 people to call. And I cold call everybody in that apartment complex. Hi, my name is Charlie Epstein. I'm affiliated with the Mass Click. Hi, my name is Charlie Epstein and I am affiliate with Click. Hi, my name is Charlie Epstein and I'm a Click. But eventually somebody said, oh, you know what? I'm getting married, I need to talk to you. Or had my first child like you're having your second child. They need to talk to you. So I go to their apartment complex, which by the way, is historic. It was the old Milton Bradley Building in downtown Springfield. They renovated it into apartments, beautiful.

Brick walls, wood beams. And sold my first 10 or 20 clients and said, I think I'll move in here.

One of my favorite stories is I used to make phone calls Sunday night.

Sunday night?

Yep. Why? Because everybody's home Sunday night. Right. So from 6:30 to 8:30 I'd make phone calls. And one time I call this guy David up and he starts screaming at me, don't you ever call me at my home on a Sunday night. So what would you do if somebody screamed at you? What's your first.

You hang up.

Great. Hang up.

No, I'm hungry. I said, when should I call you? He says, you call me at work. I said, what? I'd love to, but I don't have your phone number at work. It's 777-9222. What's a good time to call? You call me at 8:30. Bam.

Good. Done.

8:30 the next morning I call him and he goes, oh, man, I was such a jerk. I'm so sorry I yelled at you. I'm getting married and I need to see you. And. Come on. Are you Holder?

No kidding.

Yeah.

So from there.

You know, you get a little bit of confidence. My mentor who worked with doctors said to me and another guy who was in our district, now, Ron, you guys need to call on doctors. You should call on the interns at the hospitals.

Okay? We're like, great, how do we get their names?

So I realized that one of the hospitals, you know, they had behind the desk where the night nurse is, you know, they had all these little pictures of the first year residents, the second year residents, the third year residents. And I said to my buddy Ron, I said, you know, if we could get a copy of that.

We could then call information. He's like, well, how are we going to get a copy of it? This is a true story.

12:30 at night, this car pulls up to the emergency room of Bay State Medical here in Springfield, Mass.

And I walk up to the desk of the night nurse and start talking to her because you're asking, where does the acting come in? And then I go, oh, my God. And I faked a faint and I fainted right in front of the night desk. And she comes running around and my buddy Ron is in the shadows and I'm like on the ground with like one eye going, you know.

And as she comes around attending me, he runs in behind the desk, rips the thing off the wall. And as I watch him run out the door, I sit up and I go, oh, my gosh, I don't know what happened. I must have passed out, but I'm okay, thank you so much. And I get up and I go.

Oh, my God, Charlie. Incredible.

So it took me a month to get Ron to pull the thing out of the closet. He was afraid the police were going to come to his house and arrest him, you know. So now we called on all the doctors, other residents who had no money.

Like us, but it happened to be at that time MassMutual had all their medical benefits. So we called up and said, you know, we're with Massmutual and we want to get together with you and review over all your health insurance benefits, your life, disability, like that, and let you know, about supplemental benefits that you have. And they would meet with us and then we would, you know, supplement the gaps that they had with their disability coverage and their life coverage. And those people are still clients of mine today.

Okay, I was going to ask you, how many of those people do you still keep in touch with?

Because I bet there's still. They're all still policyholders. So then I was like, you know what, this is awful.

I got to find the entrepreneurial market. And so I'm in Springfield, Mass. And north of me is a town called Northampton, where Smith College is. And then you have UMass and Amherst. And so I started sending out these mailers, you know, get your free atlas.

Because I've got a list of all the businesses in that town. And one story I'll just tell you is.

I got a response and I drive up and I got my little atlas and I walk into this business was called the Copy center.

And it was the first print shop, offset print shop in Massachusetts. And this woman, Marie Case, had started this business. So I walk in and she's a one woman shop. You know, she's running the front counter, she's running the printing machine. People are coming in and coming out and she's like, well, who are you? I said, oh, I'm Charlie Epstein. I'm filler with the MassMutual and I have your atlas. She goes, what? I said, well, you responded to my thing. She goes, okay. So I noticed that she was trying to handle everything.

So she goes over and she's running the printing machine. So I went around the counter and started waiting on her customers like I worked.

She looks over at this now, she'll tell you, years later, I was hitting on all the Smith College coeds. You know, I'm 21, 22 years old and single.

Why am I not surprised?

She's pissed because I never hit on her. Long story short, she becomes a client. She's one of my oldest, dearest friends. She's now an executive management consultant in Austin, Texas and travels all over the world. That's a different story. But she then starts referring me to all the small, all the business owners in that town. And you know, from there, you know the drill. Referral. Referral. Referral.

So the first three years was all insurance business. Then I got my securities license and we started doing financial planning and investments. And then of course it's just taken off from there. But those early years are priceless.

Oh yeah, you learn.

And our listeners don't know. But 90% of all people entering the Life Insurance business fail in the first year, 80% in the second year, and 70% in the third year.

How many people make it past five years? What percentage would you say?

I think it's like less than 10% in our industry. And today it's probably worse. The numbers are worse. But you know what? If you're an actor, 95% are unemployed at any given day. So I thought, wow, the insurance industry, it's 90% failure rate. The acting industry is 95%. I'll go with the 90% failure rate. I got a 5% differential.

Balancing your odds there.

Oh, my gosh. I mean, you've been on such a journey, starting from creating your own business, growing that business, you know, going into the small towns and being the person in that town. And what's been your favorite part of the journey?

Wow. So much of that. I would say the big shift for me came in.

The 1990s. You know, I looked around at what everybody was doing, you know.

You know, you've got it in your town, you know, like an estate planning council. And, you know, all these groups that exist. Of course, back in my day, it was Lions Club and it was Rotary. It was all these. They don't exist anymore. But, you know, there were all these groups, and I went to them once or twice, and I looked around and it was, yeah, everybody in my business was there, or the banker was there, or the. You know, and I said, I don't want to be part of a group like that. And I grew up in a family business environment. You know, my father was a. It was, you know, that kind of thing. And.

So the biggest thing that I did was I thought, boy, if I could create a family business center that would provide value to family business owners to help them figure out how to get the business from one generation to the next and how to deal with family issues.

And so I was lucky because Massmutual had sponsored the first family business center in the United States of America at Northeastern University. And I was literally at a MassMutual conference in Rome, 1990. I'll never forget it. And Joe Bloom.

He was a Massmutual agent. And he went to the CEO of MassMutual, Tom Wheeler, and said, I got this idea to start this family business center. And Tom stroked a check for $75,000 to launch it. And I heard him in Rome, of all places, talk about the center. They were doing eight seminars, dinner seminars. They'd bring in outside speakers. They had, I don't know, 50 or 100 family businesses that were paying and I was just. And I got home, I called my general agent at the time, Bob Devall, and I said, here's the deal. I'm going to start this center, and you're going to write a check.

Because Massmutual had already written a check for the center in Boston, and I'm here in Springfield. He's like, go for it. And then I cold called UMass. I wasn't a graduate of University of Massachusetts and another college, Western New England. And I called the head of the Continuing education department.

Brian Aiken, and I said, hey, I'd like to meet with you. I got this idea, and I explained it over the phone. So he meets with me, and I lay out what we're going to do. And he says, I love this idea. We're trying to do continuing education and outreach. We haven't done anything in the business community, but we have no money. I said, you be the sponsoring college and university. I'll get the money. It took me two years, Bill, to get this thing launched. I almost went out of business. So I had Massmutual. I needed a law firm. I needed an accounting firm. And.

It was my fourth sponsor anyways, so I'll never forget this. I called up the second largest law firm in town. I had a relationship with one of the attorneys, and I went and met with them, and I laid out why they should write a check for $15,000 to sponsor this center. One of the attorneys said to me, you know, Charlie, this is the 90s. It's not the 80s. If this is the 80s, we'd write the check. But family businesses are going out of business, and I'm going, yeah, exactly. They need our help. Wow. The next day, I called the largest law firm in town I had a connection with, made the same pitch, and they said, who do we make the check out to.

Within 24 hours? From there, they got me to bank of Boston, who wrote the check, and then Coopers and Lybran, and they wrote the check. So I had my $60,000. I went back to the university. I said, now we got to hire a director.

Because I've been running around for two years trying to get this started.

We put two ads in, two newspapers. We got 145 applicants.

Holy cow. That's incredible.

We narrowed it down to five finalists. And that day, God shone on me and everybody else. We found a gentleman by the name of Ira Brick. He had closed down the oldest children's clothing store in the country in Long Island. He was fourth generation family business. He happened to move up to Amherst, was getting ready to move back home, saw the ad, responded, and for the next 25 years, Ira ran our center. It was the most successful center out of 50 in the country.

And so the difference that that made was I wasn't selling to my tribe. I was providing value.

And they saw me first as the founder of the center. I mean, to this day, I'll give you an example. We just took over a 401k plan, and the reason we got it is the father and son were members of that center. Now, the center shut down during COVID and they remembered me, and the father reached out to me and said, we need your help.

Okay.

So it just made. And it differentiated me from everybody in my area because I was seen as the expert, the family business expert. I mean, I got my family business designation from the American college.

But we were providing value.

And we have had over 500 businesses in my Western Mass area be members. That's enormous impact. Probably the single best thing I've ever done in my life.

That is just a tremendous story. 500 businesses that you potentially help save, right?

Oh, I've got story after story of the alcoholic uncle who was going to destroy the business. And we helped with that and the succession. And I mean, we just brought speakers and some. Some of the greatest speakers from. It was great. Ira and I would be like, hey, I read this book. Let's. And then what I would do is, like, you know, I'd see this person that I'd want to bring in.

Oh, what's his name? I mean, we had a guy. It'll come to me. You know, he would get paid $50,000 to speak. Right?

That's a lot of money.

But Ira would call up and say, I don't have a $50,000 budget. I can pay 3,000 and buy 100 of your books.

And then I would say, I'll tell you what, I'll do a client appreciation event, and I'll pay them ten grand to speak to my clients. And we did it back to back, you know, one in the morning, one at night. And these people wanted to make a difference, so they would come and speak to the family business center at a very low cost, you know, because they wanted to make an impact. So we had some of the most amazing, amazing authors, Speakers come in and talk. And it was so much fun, you know, because Ira could call up anybody. It's like having you and I having a podcast. You can call up anybody and say, hey, be on my podcast.

I remember. Go ahead.

I was going to ask you, what kind of transformation has that had for you for your personal life to be able to help all these folks? I mean, what has that done for you on the personal side of things?

That's a good question. You know, I would say to your audience, it's, it's why are you in business? Whatever business you're in, you know, we're all trying to make a living.

But that gets kind of boring and old, right? So.

I think the great enterprises of the world, whether they're small or big.

Are about having an impact and making a difference in people's lives.

And so I can look back on that and say, wow, we made an enormous impact and it was challenging, it was interesting.

I learned a lot from the people that we brought in and spoke. So you gotta be somebody, you know, if you're not. Well, I mean, the expression I use in my one man show is my life is all about wonderment, joy, laughter and play and discovery for discovery's sake. That's my mantra. And so that's my filter. So it's really easy for me to look at every opportunity. Like if a new person comes in and they want to do business with me and you know, when you have a new prospect and they come in and you know they're looking at you through their filter on what you're going to do for them, but you and I are looking at, is this worth my time.

Right? Am I going to discover something out of this relationship? Like I'll give you an example. I got referred to a professor recently and that's not my market.

But it was referred by the attorney and the accountant and the guy's worth $10 million.

And he came to me specifically because he said, I've talked to a lot of financial advisors, but they all want 1%. That was the first thing he said to me because I said, how can I be of service to you? He said, I've talked to all these financial advisors and they all want 1%. Now he's an economist, professor of economics. I thought to myself before he came in, this is either going to be interesting, challenging or I'm not going to want to be involved.

And he said, I don't want to pay 1%. So I already knew up front and because we're a flat fee advisory firm, we also manage money for assets, but we also just do flat fee that that would be a non issue. So we could really get to the heart of the matter. But what I said to him is I said I was really looking forward to meeting with you today. He was like, why is that? I said, well, we have something in common. I studied economics. You're an economics professor. So quite frankly, in any relationship, I want to know what I'm going to get out of it.

I know I can add value, and I know I can make a difference. And I know our process.

Is better than anybody else, But I'm into wonderment, joy, laughter, and play. Is this going to be discovery for what can I learn? And then when I found out he was an economist in his specialty is labor, and look what's happening right now with the supply chain, I said to him, oh, my God, you know, what can I learn.

As I'm getting paid? And, you know, Bill.

I always thought when I was starting this business and was just cold calling, I was getting paid to learn every day.

Like, every day I was learning something and getting paid.

Because when you're first in the business, you know nothing.

So you read a lot, you go to conferences, you listen to people, and you learn on the fly, and they pay you for that. Now, you don't want your dentist, your doctor, your brain surgeon learning on the fly, but you and I, we get paid.

And I was out with one of my best friends last night.

And we were reminiscing because we met at that apartment complex, the old Milton Bradley factory. That's how we met in the elevator 41 years ago. We didn't have a pot to piss in. And he has been a super successful entrepreneur. We were out to dinner last night because.

He had bought a rundown building in the heart of Holyoke, Mass. For $150,000 35 years ago, and yesterday he closed for $4 million. Wow.

Incredible.

That was just the building. So we're out with his wife celebrating, but we were reminiscing where we came from, you know.

And the thing that Mark said, and I got to get back to the learning on the fly. Oh, my God. I just lost the thought, you know? Well, we were just talking about how most people aren't willing to put the work in and figure things out and stumble and bumble.

But look at the result.

And, you know, I have an expression when I was making all those cold calls.

That no never means never. It just means not now.

Like, when someone says no.

Most people say, okay. And when people say no to me, I say, oh, okay. And then I look at my watch.

I say, how about now?

They go, no. I go, okay.

How about now?

And so, you know.

Yeah.

You know why we're so lucky, Bill?

Why is that?

Is because we know no never means never. It just means not now. And 95% of the population thinks it means no.

And that's what it takes to be an entrepreneur, is to deal with those nos and keep pushing.

You know, as Google says, fail fast, fail often, fail forward. And the more nos you get, the closer you are to the magic square.

And that right fit.

Yeah, that's a beautiful way to end this show. Charlie Epstein, unbelievable story. I am so grateful that we had a chance to have you on the show. The technology worked today. We were supposed to do this two weeks ago. Our wonderful Internet, both of us, we were having issues. So, Charlie, you've been a tremendous guest. I love the storytelling and you're a huge inspiration, not only to me, but I know you will be to the listeners too. So thank you so much for being on the show. And.

Where can our audience find you and listen to your podcast.

So they.

Can go to yieldofdreams live like Field of Dreams, which is right behind me. And on there you can download my app, the Yield of dreams app. And on my app, you can get access to my podcast, yield of Dreams, or it's on Spotify and everything. You can also get access to my myths of money course and learn what myths you have about money and hold you back. There's other goodies there. And then on the website, you can learn about my one man show, yield of Dreams that we launched this past August, and I'm planning to do a 30 city tour over the next two to three years.

Amazing.

Will you.

Will you be coming to Chicago?

That's one of the cities we want to come to.

All right, we'll have to talk about that soon. So thank you so much for being a guest on the retire you desire podcast and thank you so much for tuning in and can't wait to have you back for another episode. Thank you, Charlie.

Peace, brother.