Crafting Positive Futures for Africa - Øyvind Sandve

I got the opportunity to go to Stellenbosch, South Africa, and I did my master's there in political economy and conflict dynamics. So that was the start of a journey, and I've always been interested in Africa, and I took the opportunity. And of course, being in Africa, traveling around, backpacking around, and I also did my master's thesis about ethnic militant groups in Nigeria. Which led me to go to do fieldwork in Nigeria and also resulted in getting a job there. So I resided in Lagos and Port Harcourt for a year. So in total, I've been living in Africa for more than 2 and a half years.

Okay, very good. What was your feeling about Nigeria and the people of Nigeria? I mean, I know if you're studying the militant groups That could have been quite interesting in itself. But just generally, how do you feel about the country and her people?

Well, I love Nigeria, and it's kind of my favorite country there because it's something about the culture. It's like 250 ethnic groups, and they're very warm and friendly people. Of course, you have bad things in Nigeria as well, but with 220 million people, of course, you will have that. Yeah, but I traveled around and I met ethnic leaders of militant groups and, and I understood their grievances and their struggle. So, so it was, it was very interesting though.

All right. The journal that we've been contributing to is about crafting positive futures for Africa. Do you want to kind of give me a bit of insight for yourself about how you think about futures thinking? What does that mean to you and the work that you do?

For me, it's, it's about being able to think outside the box. We live in a capitalist system now, and, and, and, and Africa is also trying to be pushed into that shape. And I don't think that shape is suitable for, for Africa. It's, it's so diverse, it's so huge.

Mm-hmm.

It's, it's, it's like Africa is forced to be something it's not. And I think that's, it's kind of why it's not working the way it could do. So for me, it's about being able to think outside the box and seeing the opportunities and the strengths instead of trying to be something else.

Okay, good. We often talk about futures with a plural S, trying to reinforce the fact that there isn't just one future that's going to happen, that there are options. We can kind of lean into our preferred future, or if we do nothing, we might go down a road that leads us to a future we don't want. So in terms of what you've been writing and specifically with your work with the militant groups, what do you think are some of the— if we're going to judge them— the positive or negative futures that Africa could be experiencing? You know, how could the future unfold for Africa?

Well, what I fear most is that the system is just reproducing itself with nepotism and cronyism and large-scale corruption and basically a continent without hope.

Hmm.

So for me, it's kind of like, because the population of Africa, it's so young. They're not ruling Africa. It's the elderly people, the people with power.

Yeah.

So if we don't start addressing that, there should be so much hope and dreams. But right now, I don't see that as clear as it could be.

Okay. If we were to pose a positive future, what could that look like?

Well, as I wrote in my chapter though, there are so like 800 billion youth, so a million. And if you just start to get out the dreams and co-creation and start to build on each other's strengths. Africa is not a country as like we laugh about. It's 54 very different countries.

Yeah.

And it's so, it's, it's very unique. And I think it's possible to have like a really strong Africa that, that, that build on each other's strengths. I think that is possible.

Yeah. When we spoke yesterday to one of the other contributors, Yelang Prujenka, we were talking quite a bit about that, that young population that is in Africa and the demographic graph literally is like, it's a triangle, but with a really, really wide base. It's Christmas tree. Yes, it is, with a very wide base down at the bottom. Whereas for a lot of European countries, it kind of like looks like this little bubble with, you know, more people middle-aged, fewer obviously older people, and fewer children coming in to replace the population as they age out in certain countries in Europe and in Asia. But this kind of demographic potential dividend in Africa with that really wide base of young people who will grow up and start doing things to contribute to the economy and to the countries that they, that they live in. That could also backfire if, if they are not given the opportunities, if they don't have the opportunities to actually do something with their lives. So any insight that you have about that? I mean, how do we, how do we cater for this young generation? What is it we should expect from them, and how can we prepared to support them as they grow up?

Well, that's the thing though. I did some work on this when I studied in Germany though, in new political growth. And if you see to the Tiger States, the Hong Kong, the Taiwan, they started 25 years before it exploded because they focused on education. They built first, uh, they, they, they built primary schools, but it took a generation to develop. And then like all over, like, oh, the Tiger States, they were so lucky. No, they invested in education for 25 years before the results came. So it's, it's not like hocus-pocus. And imagine if, if the 800 million youth in Africa got the same type of education. primary and secondary education. It was— it would just— wow. I can just imagine how Africa would prosper.

Yeah. Yeah. And what you're saying there with the Tiger States is the absolute perfect example of foresight, is looking at an entire country and saying, we can see something happening that will affect us in 2 decades' time. Let's act now. Whereas we don't always get that level of cooperation in other parts of the continent or the world. In fact, there's lots of countries that don't get this right. What would we be addressing politically to be able to do something like that, to be able to prepare for those younger generations?

Well, as I wrote, though, there are many things that are not so good in Africa right now, and I have a list of 7 things, but For me, if you don't have political stability, everything is just very— it's very hard to plan, it's very hard to invest, it's hard to achieve anything. So for me, political stability is really, really crucial. And Nigeria, as an example, though, the ethnic militant groups, they turned violent in order to save democracy. And I believe they actually were able to do that because after 1999, the democracy was very, very fragile. And they saw that, okay, this is not going to be a democracy unless we do something. So I'm not saying violent conflict is what we need, but political stability. And how can we get that? It's not a quick fix. And you can't say that it doesn't— like, Africa is not one country, it's 54 countries and very, very different political systems.

Yeah.

But perhaps a stronger, united Africa, a Pan-Africanism, perhaps lending a bit of thoughts from Europe and the European Union could be A way forward.

Okay. Talking about Europe, obviously there's lots of countries in Africa that have got a really influential historical foundation in terms of colonialism. So there's a lot of influence of Europe in different parts of the continent that reflects. So we've got like a very French West Africa, for example. You're, you're, you're on the other part of the world, in the Northern Hemisphere there. How do you see it from there? How do you see what, what Europe's influence over Africa has been, positive or negative, and what that could mean now for us starting to really identify what needs to happen within Africa? Are we going to keep relying on European concepts, or can we break away and discover something that is uniquely African? I know it's a bit of a loaded question, I'm sorry.

Yeah, well, but it's a good question, I guess. As I write in the paper, though, it's a 70-year-old colonial hangover. It's not just— it didn't disappear the way they anticipated, I guess. It's still there. The institutions are there. The mindsets, the it's been reproducing, of course. And, and, uh, of course I, I would like Africa to have its own thing. Uh, of course you can borrow thoughts, but not trying to be Europe, not trying to be America, not trying to be the Tiger States, because Africa is unique in its own way.

Yeah.

And I think, uh, what I think the strength of, of Africa is, is, is its uniqueness in in belief and in actually the traditional religions and the culture and building on that uniqueness. And what I hope, and my dream is to work a bit more on this, is what if Africa could be more of an ecological economy, trying to step out of capitalism? And building on something that is closer to Africa and its people. Yeah, yeah.

It picks up, brings up so many ideas in my head. I mean, first of all, we assume that capitalism is the thing we're supposed to be pursuing, but capitalism is broken. It doesn't work the way it was promised. There might have been, you know, a couple of occasions in our history worldwide where it looked like capitalism solved a whole lot of problems. But It doesn't necessarily work that way for everyone. But I was also in another conversation yesterday with some people more towards the East, kind of India, Malaysia kind of area. And the conversation we were having there was how so often the cultural values that are demonstrated by people in that part of the world today, those values come from the West, the so-called West. And it's kind of overpowered the values and morals of those people originally. So now they have a very conservative outlook where that did not— that was not how they originated. And I just kind of keep seeing this influence that we look at something and we say, if we're being lazy, this thing isn't working here in Nigeria or in South Africa, and we got to fix it. We got to fix it so that it looks like something from the North Americas or something from Europe. But what if we shouldn't be fixing that at all? What if we should be finding something that is more natural? And in South Africa in particular, the word colonial is really a bad word. We really get stressed about it and react very negatively. But I'm hearing people from across Africa just talk about decolonizing the institutions, the elements of their world that are important. And one conversation was a Nigerian woman speaking about the efforts that they're doing to decolonize their own education system. And when you start thinking like that, that's a really big job. It's, you know, we built an education system based on what we've been taught. It doesn't serve the people, and it doesn't serve Africa. So how can we actually— how can we identify what education could look like that is fundamentally different from the what the rest of the world is trying to improve on when we should be doing something entirely different. These are just my thoughts, kind of inspired by your question.

No, it's a good question though, and the education system is worn out by 200 years. It was made for industrialization and it's like to fit the purpose. And in this world, as I write in my paper as well though, with with AI and new technology and cell phones and internet. Like in 10, 20 years, hopefully most of Africa will have access to internet and most people will have their own smartphone. And basically you're online, you can do whatever you like.

Yeah, absolutely.

And it's a massive opportunity to work on something new.

Yeah.

And, and, and, and, but I, I really hope, uh, that Africa can find some kind of Pan-Africanism, as I write.

Yes.

Because I think now there's a bit of competition, like South Africa and Nigeria, uh, not the best friends. We kind of, uh, want to be the, the bigger one, but what a broader cooperation, like lifting each other up, finding Common ground.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Politically, there might be some of that kind of posturing, but I know that the people that we deal with directly, there's an incredible sense of not just collaboration, but literally co-creation, saying, you know, I've got something, you've got something, what can we do and create together? And those conversations for me are really powerful. And that's the point of this work, is opening that dialogue, hearing from people, hearing something different from another part of the continent. And that is, yeah, that is the hope that I have with this journal and with these conversations.

So just like one example, African Leadership Academy, where all the 54 states get to send 10 people each, 550 people at a unique academy. And if the West wants to contribute, as they often do, with money, No, they don't have to. You can get lecturers from Oxford and Cambridge and the best universities in the world giving free education pro bono to build up a new generation of leaders. And that could be a good contribution because throwing money at things is not always the best solution.

It's not. That's right. It's right. But since you're talking about academics, I'm just going to do a free shout out. And this is not a sponsored advert at all, but the Stellenbosch Business School really ranks amongst around the world. It's one of the best institutions in its kind. And I did some of my future studies work there as well. And that program is amazing. So if anybody listening wants to hear more about that, I'll be very happy to connect you to that program. It really has been kind of mind-changing. I think that, and that probably is the point of a lot of this, is what is the mindset that we're coming with? And why, when we talk about Africa in the start of your essay, you list the typical problems that people think about in terms of Africa. And then we, you know, you work through it finding ways to kind of address that. But that's— that it's not just the mind shift change, but there is such really good information about things that are happening that are very different from what we would expect to hear from an African story. Yeah.

Yeah. I went to Stellenbosch myself, so I can also—

Big fan.

Good.

Oh, I had another thought and I can't quite remember what it was. And I think this happens when we talk about the future. There's just so, so much potential that we can unpack. I know what it is. The Safaricom and M-Pesa technology is such an incredible example. Very often when I'm doing, I'm doing a conference for HR leaders in Africa, they're coming to Cape Town and I'm addressing this conference. And I'm doing my research and I'm using AI to give me some insights and things and to make sure that I haven't missed anything big. But every time I put one of these programs together, M-Pesa comes up again. And if anybody from M-Pesa is listening, I'm still trying to get hold of someone to really talk to you directly and explore this. But the thing I love about M-Pesa is it's a financial program technology that allows people to receive money, to pay bills, to send money home to the gogos, the grannies, to pay for school fees, even to create insurance, you know, products and savings accounts and things. And what is amazing is that it's brought financial inclusion to parts of the world where there will not be bricks-and-mortar banking system buildings there because it makes no financial sense to do that. But more than that, M-Pesa actually runs off the old standard cell phones, not even a smartphone. So I can open up my smartphone app and it's all bells and whistles and animations and colors and, you know, pretty tabs and things. But M-Pesa is just, you know, text-based communication. But it answers a problem. It answers a problem that's relevant for that part of the world that meets their needs where they are without having to be the fancy smartphone technology that the rest of us might be used to. And that's the kind of thing that is It's so important to kind of point out very often from other parts of the world there is a technology, an approach, a model, a template, a tool, and it's brought to Africa. That learning is brought to Africa and tried to impose that into a system that it doesn't understand. And the more we understand the context and the real needs of people in Africa and different parts of the continent, we can generate real solutions. Rather than trying to kind of retrofit something that works somewhere else in the world and trying to squish it, like you were saying right at the beginning, you know, trying to force it into the shape that, that does not serve. So for me, M-Pesa is just that, you know, go-to example of a technology that actually meets the needs of the people and gives them that inclusion where they'd been left out before because we could not scale the banking system that we know into more rural parts of, of the continent.

Yeah, and as you were speaking, my head started like, I would love to come to a conference about Africa 2010, like the 2100s. Like, yeah, how would Africa look in 75 years? Yeah, okay, how big is it possible to dream? I think—

very good question.

I think that Africa could be the leading continent. Because the West is about to collapse and America is on the brink of mayhem.

And I'm glad somebody else is saying that.

I don't know what's going to happen over there. Thank you. But Africa, if the forces are joined and you have so many youth and they are so willing to work and they are industrious and yeah, so it's about Can we dream big enough?

Yeah, very good, very good. And that is the point of this particular journal and these conversations, is to say, you know, what are we dealing with? How can we overcome them? And how big can we dream? And I hope that we, we get to dream a lot more and a lot bigger in the future. So, Øyvind, thank you very much for, for contributing to the journal, for this conversation right now, and for ongoing conversations, which I'm sure we'll have. The journal is meant to kind of start this dialogue. I would love to hear from people what you're thinking. Have you, you know, respond to any articles in the journal, have debates. We can have some additional conversations as we go forward. And who knows where this journal could go, because I'd like to kind of now reach out to the next set of futurists in and around Africa, or who have worked or studied in Africa. to find the next edition of contributors to this conversation. Øyvind, any last thoughts as we end?

And how people can connect with you? I just would like to end with my endnote because I was writing this and I remember, I think Norway was very much influenced by poets over 100 years ago. And our most important poet, he kind of shaped Norway into this good nationalist way with the people, children with flags and dreams and opportunities. And it's like, don't forget the soft arts. It's not just the economists that are going to change the world, but the artists, the poets.

Wow.

So, so, so, so don't forget these when we do this co-creation, because put an economist and an artist together and they can make something more beautiful than 2 economists or 2 artists Oh, that has just sparked a whole bunch of thoughts in my brain.

Thank you very much. Ørben, if people want to get hold of you, where can they find you?

Well, there is a landing page and probably my info is going to be there, email and phone, and just give me a call. I'm open and I'm— I would love to come back to Africa soon because I haven't been there in many years now.

Oh, okay. All right. We'd love to welcome you back. Thank you very much again. And thank you to anybody who's listening. Do check out the website futuresforafrica.online. And if you are a futurist, if you are a poet or an artist in Africa and you want to express what you think the future of Africa should look like, then please be in touch and we'd love to hear your stories as well. Ivan, thank you very much. I appreciate your time today.

Thank you.