145: Present Over Perfect with Shauna Niequist

In this episode, I talk about the UN to do list and we talk with Shannon iquist about being present over Perfect. Hey there everybody. This is Bjork Ostrom and you are listening to the Food Blogger Pro podcast brought to you by WP Tasty, which is the ultimate go to resource for bloggers like yourself that are looking to build and grow their website. Right now, WP Tasty has two plugins that we offer. One is called Tasty Recipes for people that are building food blogs. And the other is called Tasty Pins. And this is actually for anybody. You don't need to be a food blogger. And Tasty Recipes allows you to mark up your recipes in a way that Google and other search engines understands them. And it also allows you to create really beautiful recipe card templates that people can print those recipes off from your blog. And TastyPins allows you to create an optimized SEO description as well as an optimized Pinterest description. And you can check out wptasty.com to learn more about those two plugins. And every week we do a Tasty Tip, which is brought to you by WP Tasty. And today's Tasty Tip has to do with some of the things that Shauna is going to be talking about on the podcast today. This is a concept that I've applied a couple times throughout my work career and it has been really helpful for me. And that is creating the UN to do list or the things I don't do list would be another way to describe it. And along with that, creating a list of things that you do, like to do and want to do. And it's a really simple exercise. There doesn't have to be any super specific rules that you follow. But the basic idea is when I've done this in the past and Lindsay has done this as well, what you do is you take a big sticky note. My favorite is those sticky notes that you can put up on a wall. And it wouldn't have to be that, but there's something really fun about not doing it on your computer or a piece of paper, but doing it while standing up, taking one big sticky note that you put on the wall and then another big sticky note. And on one you write things I do, and on the other you write things I don't do. And you go through and write down all of the things on one side that you really enjoy doing. These would be things that you put on the things I do list. And examples for me would be, we work on our businesses. I spend time With Lindsay, spend time with friends. I go for walks with a sage. These would be all of the things that you want to prioritize and make sure that you have time for. And then this is the really interesting part of it. You go to the things I don't do list. And on this list you would maybe include some things that people would think that you should do or maybe you are currently doing but would like to do less of. And this allows you to really clarify those things and to put those down on a list. And the goal is to not do those things, but the goal is to actually not do those things. So figuring out ways to drop those things, either by replacing who does those, maybe you hire somebody to do house cleaning or lawn work, or dropping them completely. Maybe within your business and the website building that you do, you decide to drop a certain social media channel because it's just too much. And what I found every time that I do this is that there are things I'm currently doing that I don't need to be doing. And the undo list or the things I don't do list allows me to clarify what that is. But I also want to have that positive the things that I do want to do and make sure that I have time for it. Which is why you have that Things I do list. So that's the tasty tip for today. Take a minute and find some time this week to schedule a half an hour or an hour to do a things I do and things I don't do list. So you can have that un to do list the things that you want to get rid of. And that will allow you to free up that time for the things that are really important, even if it means just doing nothing, taking time to unplug and relax and recharge. And that's actually some of the things that Shana is going to talk about today. Shana wrote a book called Present Over Perfect about leaving behind the frantic life. And we are really excited to talk to her because I know a lot of people that listen to this have that to deal with. There's this frantic life that we have. And what does it look like to balance that a little bit? It's going to offer some great perspective. And for those of you that have not read Shauna's books, she has multiple books, some that I mentioned throughout the podcast. I wanted to make sure that you are aware of those, but also offer those to some of the Food Blogger Pro podcast listeners. So if you are interested in getting entered into a drawing for one of Those books. We'll give away three copies of Present over. Perfect. You can either leave a review for the podcast or you can go to foodbloggerpro.com blog and that will bring you to the page where we are publishing this. And you can leave a comment and say one thing that you took away from this episode with Shana. So either one of those will work. You can leave a review, which you can do easily from within the app that you're listening to this podcast from. Or if you'd like, you can leave a comment on the blog post for this episode and say one thing that you were able to get from this episode that you're going to apply to your life. It's going to be a great interview, and I'm really excited to share some of the concepts that Shauna's talking about here in this podcast and also in her book. So let's go ahead and jump in. Shauna, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you for having me.

Yeah. And I'm going to say this. Thank you for coming on again. This is a repeat interview, so we'll have some, like, deep cut footage from our previous interview that will never be released. But maybe someday down the line, we can release it as, like, a follow up unreleased album from when the Internet went out last time. What a bummer, right?

You know, I think of myself, or I like to think of myself as like a professional. Right. Who. Apparently not. Apparently I cannot even get through a Skype interview without having to reschedule because of an Internet problem. But thank you.

That's the hard thing.

We.

We do these on Skyp, uh, and then we record it. But I feel like the success rate for a Skype call at this point is about 25%. So it is not uncommon for that to happen. But thanks for jumping on again and for being a part of this. Uh, whenever I do these podcast interviews, I always do a decent amount of research just to get prepared for them, and it helps me kind of feel prepared for this. But there was a little bit of a counter prepared moment where I felt less prepared as I was preparing. And that's when I watched your interview with Oprah and I was like, oh, she interviewed with Oprah. That's a little bit of a different scale than our podcast. But what was that like? I'm so curious to know what the experience was like being with Oprah and spending time with her and being interviewed by her.

It was totally like a dream. She is as extraordinary as she seems, as intelligent and articulate and warm. Her team I've never felt more well prepared going into an experience. They think of everything. They talk to you about everything. I actually keep in touch with a couple of them still because we really connected during this experience. So it was like from the moment the opportunity came up all the way through, like a total dream experience.

And what was that like for you, going into it knowing that it's a really big deal? You know, the easy question is, were you nervous? But maybe layers underneath that, what did it mean to you? And then in terms of just that experience from you as another person that is transparent and inspires, how did that inform you and the work that you do?

Well, that's a great question. I was absolutely nervous. And so I'm a Chicago girl, and so I grew up on Oprah. Like when she had her daytime show in Chicago, all of our moms went to be on the Oprah show, and everybody wanted to go on the Christmas Favorite Things day. Like, Oprah was very much a part of my, like, our world and our city growing up. And so. And then as she transitioned into more of kind of the Super Soul Sunday stuff, I really appreciate the work she's doing kind of in that space, for better and for worse. I tend not to be a super, like, goal oriented person in some ways. There are a couple things that I've said, though, like, you know what, that would mean something to me. And I don't think I even was willing to say it out loud, but I always felt like the people that she has interviewed for Super Soul Sunday are people I really admire and respect, and it would be tremendously meaningful for me to be included in that. And I wouldn't say there are a lot of other things that I could take or leave. That was one that really felt meaningful to me. And so I think I was a little extra nervous. It was a great experience. And one of the interesting things that she does, and I guess she does this all the time, but they told me ahead of time, you won't meet her until the cameras are rolling. And when you see someone meet her on tv, on the show, they're meeting for the first time because she wants that fresh energy. She doesn't want to be like, okay, now let's pretend to meet. So there's something very energizing and sort of like, you sort of get like, shocked into a new space. You know, you're like, oh, my gosh, the cameras are rolling, the mic is on, There's a camera on a crane in a tree, and Oprah's coming up on A golf cart like this is happening. It's really, really cool.

Yeah. And I would imagine that with that you have this elevated experience where you're operating on all cylinders. Right. So for the interview itself, it probably goes as best as it can because it's like, okay, this is it. There's no redos, there's no practice. This is it. We're jumping into it totally.

And in some situations, a lot of times there's a person off camera who's basically running everything. The interviewer is kind of following that producer's lead. That's definitely not the case here. She is leading every part of it. When there's a plane going overhead and she wants them to stop for a minute, she tells you when it's quiet enough to start again, she's the center of that space in every way. Really interesting.

Really cool. Well, congratulations on that. That's such a cool thing. And we'll link to that in our show notes so people can watch that. One of the things that you said is, you know, I'm not really a goal oriented person. And in reading through Present Over Perfect, it sounds like at least maybe at one point in your life, you were that person. So maybe a follow up on that little point that, that you made. Is that something that's changed about you or were you never really goal oriented, but in a different phase of your life? Were you an extreme hustler and worker, but maybe not tied to concrete goals?

I would say a couple different things. I would say I hustled and performed and overworked in ways I really regret. I went way past what a normal pace and normal set of responsibilities would be. But I think I did that with a desire to prove kind of in an external way, not out of like a deep, deeply held, this is what I want my life to be. So there were a couple goals that were, like, I would say, meaningfully mine. But most of them, when I look back on it, were about pleasing someone else or someone else feeling something about me. The other thing I would say is I didn't need to win or be the best, but I used hard work and busyness to kind of keep running and keep frantic. I wasn't tremendously strategic all the time. I said yes way too indiscriminately. And a lot of it was I felt safe and good about myself if I was just running fast, if I just kept things moving.

Yeah. And for some context, for those that aren't familiar, I'll share more in the intro. But your book Present Over Perfect is About that transition from that point in your life to a point where you are. What, how would you describe it? What was that transition to that you're coming from in that. During that frantic point in your life?

Well, I would say I realized with sort of sinking clarity that if you, if we had met at an event and had coffee or our families had dinner together, if you asked me about my most deeply held values, I would have said, you know, I care about my family. I care about meaning and deep connection and good work. You know, I'm a faith based person. I care about the connection between. Between people more than I care about, you know, whatever. I would have said all these lovely things. I love to play, I love rest, and I like life to be full of variety. But if you looked at my life, what I did was work. So my values did not match my calendar or my to do list or the things that I had said yes to. And so I realized I'm not actually the person that I believe I am on the inside. And so my job the next couple years was to start from the inside out and remake my whole life.

Yeah, I have a friend that says calendars and checkbooks are moral documents. And it sounds like this realization for you that the calendar that I am keeping doesn't reflect the things that I hold to be most true and most important.

That's absolutely true. And I love that quote. I think that is really accurate.

Yeah. And that might come from somewhere else. It's just my friend that said it, so don't want to credit him as Abraham Lincoln.

Right. That's what we all said. Who it is, I don't know. It's always a safe bet.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, we'll just say that. So what was the breaking point for you? Was it a concrete moment where you had this realization or was it a slow realization?

Well, you know, on one hand, I would say there were warning signs for quite a long time. But the nature of the way I was living was that I wasn't listening to subtle suggestions. So when I look back, you know, there's so much you can see in hindsight. I could see the cracks starting to show in a lot of different areas of my life. But I had a key moment. I was speaking at an event in a hotel in Dallas. For whatever reason at that season in my life, I went to Dallas like three times a month. And so it became to me this symbol of like, this is when you leave your kids and your family and your friends and you go stay in a hotel for a Weekend and do this thing that, you know, isn't really working for you anymore. It always happened in Dallas. Dallas, yeah.

Unfortunately for Dallas.

Right. And I love. Since then, I have repaired my relationship with Dallas. And there's a lot of things I like about it. But there was a month where I'd been there three weekends, maybe three out of four. And I went up to my hotel room in between sessions of speaking, and I laid down on my bed, fully clothed, shoes on, and I looked up at the ceiling, and I said to myself, if anybody else would like to try to live this life I've created for myself, they are more than welcome to try. And a stronger person might be able to do it well, but I don't want it anymore. The benefits do not outweigh the costs for me. My relationships were suffering. My body was suffering, My spiritual life was suffering. What I was was productive. What I was not was healthy, spiritually, physically, or emotionally.

Yeah, you know, I think a lot of people can relate to that, and they have this feeling of being stretched so thin across multiple areas. And in each one of those individual areas, maybe stretch thin. Work, career, family, relationships. But then cumulatively as well, being stretched then. But then there's this piece of. Whether it's culture, our own internal dialogue that says either two things. Number one, just suck it up and do would be categorized as hustle. It would be categorized as hustle, hard work, maybe as sacrifice. So that would be one or the other internal dialogue that we might hear is only for a little bit of time, and then I'll be able to change. So for people that are feeling this and thinking either one of those things, either, hey, this is just what you do. Suck it up, or I'm only going to do this for a little bit, and then it will get better. What would you say to those people that are in that moment right now and thinking those things?

Well, you know, I do think I understand this. The line of thinking of it'll only be for a little while. And I would say that is an acceptable answer. As long as you can show me the calendar where it's gonna end. Right. Like, as long as the next little while isn't like the next decade, you know, and for a lot of us, we play that game that this season is just a busy one, but the next one won't be. Well, the next one won't be only if you make radical changes so that it won't. I think there's an aspect of sort of agency about it. I didn't really take responsibility for how busy and frantic my life had become. I sort of thought, like, I don't know how this happened to me. And there was sort of this. This moment where I said, oh, well, I guess the bad news is that I did this to myself, but maybe the good news is if I did it to myself, I can undo it. And so I think certainly there are seasons. You know, a medical residency, nobody talks about, like a balanced life. When you're, you know, when you have a newbor right at the end of a huge project, you know, there certainly are those seasons, But I think we have to be very honest with ourselves that we really are able to create new seasons once that particular one is done.

Yeah.

And then going back to your first point, talking about sort of that like we reward people for always being tired, for never stopping, that's the harder one for me. I grew up in an environment, you know, I think the Midwest is a place that values hard work. I grew up in a family of my grandpas were Michigan. You know, one of them owned farms and produce companies. One was a sheet metal worker. I grew up around people who very much valued hard work. And you didn't have to be. There were a lot of things that weren't particularly valued. Being fragile or emotional or. But if you could show up and get the work done, that was incredibly. You were well rewarded for that. And it took a long time. It took me really hurting my own body and soul and relationships until I said out loud, a lot of the people around me are able to run at a faster pace for longer than I am. And me trying to keep up with them is killing me.

Yeah. And so at that point, when you have that realization, what does the undoing of what you had done look like in a concrete way?

Well, you know, for me, it started with conversations with my husband, with my dad, who I'm really close to, with a mentor, with my small group at the time. But then also, you know, I'm a writer. So with my agent, with my publisher, with the people that I speak at events for. So, you know, I finished out the events that were on my calendar. And so some of why this felt like maybe a really long change is because the nature of some of the speaking stuff is it takes about two years to get those things off your calendar. But I started articulating. My values are shifting in this season and the things I've always done, I'm not going to do anymore. I promise my work still matters. I promise I'm not going to blow off deadlines, but I'm determined to find a new way to do it. And having those conversations on the front end, I think really helped different decisions get made at the actual decision points. So then, you know, for example, when I got together with a marketing team about that book that was coming out, nobody said, so we're just gonna do, like, last year, like, 100 events, you know, they said, well, we've heard you say that you're determined to live this new way according to your new values. What would be a way to publicize this book? And I think that only worked because we'd been having, you know, months of conversation at that point. So I would say one of the things that really helps is talking about it early and often with the people who are going to experience the repercussions of it.

Yeah, that's great. And that was actually one of the questions that I had, because I know from others. So in our world, there's a lot of people that are doing cookbooks. And I know that for you, you have a book that is not strictly a cookbook, but Bread and Wine talks about some concepts around food and people and relationships and has recipes within that. And is. Has been really influential for us. And for my wife, Lindsay, who you were able to connect with last time, formed a dinner club out of some of the conversations from that. That's been hugely influential. So from her and from me, thank you for that.

Oh, I love that. Thank you. That means a lot to me.

Yeah. And one of the. So one of the questions that I had was, you know, knowing the book writing process for so many people in our niche, cookbooks, but books in general, is intense. What was it like for you to be in what usually is an intense activity, writing a book about life, not being as intense? Was that something that impacted the writing process?

Oh, absolutely. And, you know, one of the things that we said all the way through is, listen, I'm gonna write a book about leaving behind frantic. We can't do this book in a frantic way. It's not right. And so that was actually a really helpful sort of governor on the process. It gave us helpful parameters. And I kept saying to my team all the through. I know launching a book is a lot of work. I know the editing process is a lot of work. I know all the PR stuff. I choose to believe that there is a more soulful and more grounded way to do this, and we're going to find it. But then I also said, and that never means I'm not going to work hard. It never means I don't care about this. I'm just going to do it differently. So for us, it was a lot about longer timelines for everything. One of the advantages was this was my fifth book and so I knew where some of the stress points in the process would be. I knew, okay, well, this is going to be a hard couple weeks or we're going to really have to keep our eye on this part. But I could build in. I bet I built in almost double time for each of those stress points to make them as manageable as possible. And then even some stuff like I put workable boundaries on my time and my family's time and ask the team to work within those. For example, I think with other events or with other releases, it was sort of like, man, if you want me to do an interview, I'll do it. Doesn't matter time of day, doesn't matter where, doesn't matter if I have to drive to the city, doesn't matter if they're coming to my house. I said, here's the deal. I can do X amount of interviews in between this time and this time, these three weeks, and I'll do as many as you want in there. So you prioritize them. And that worked really well for us. So I did tons and tons, but scheduled in a really strategic way with parameters that worked for my schedule and my family.

Yeah. And that maybe speaks a little bit to what we were talking about before with, like an intentional season. So not saying that there will never be a time in my life that I'm busy, but saying I'm going to put parameters on this and say, this will be the season. I'm going to draw hard lines and really understand within this what that means and requires of me without leaving that completely open ended.

Absolutely. And I think one of the things that helped me with my team is, you know, obviously, you know, I had a colleague who said, like, you're committing career suicide. You can't write a book about how you're not going to be quite so productive and you're not going to show up at so many events. You can't do that. I had people refer to it as the time I pulled the ripcord on my career.

It's always encouraging.

Right.

Pieces of feedback. Yeah.

Should that be the subject title? What I kept saying is, and I really believe this, and I believe it, I think maybe even more so for people whose lives have a higher Internet focus than mine, making beautiful, durable, meaningful things takes more time than making fast, flashy, disposable things. And Beautiful things bear out over time. It matters more. It will last longer. And so I kept coming back to that. I kept saying, yeah, I can have a book done in six months. It will be garbage. You want to, want to sell a garbage book or do you want. And again, please, if someone else can do it in six months and it'd be great, then more power to them. I just can't. And so I had to keep saying, I promise I'm going to show up with something that's meaningful over the long haul. I promise if you give me time, we'll build something kind of sturdier for the long term. But I'm done with kind of the disposable, frantic way of producing content. It doesn't work for me.

Yeah. And I think I would be interested to hear you dive into that a little bit more. A lot of the people that listen to this podcast would be creators with a digital focus for what they're doing. And one of the things I remember having a conversation with somebody, it was years and years ago, but they talked about having a little bit of a identity crisis because they were a web designer and everything that they created didn't exist two years later. Like it just was updated and it was a new version, kind of a little bit of a different version of what you're saying. But for those that are creating on a quick timeline, so maybe blog posts, social media, things like that, what would your advice be to them in order to complement what is required as a, as a quick turnaround industry to complement that with maybe more pillar pieces of content, whether that be maybe, maybe it's non digital pieces of content or maybe it is something digital.

Well, and you know, I would say I don't think there's anything like less than or less valuable when your content is digital. I think people are making really beautiful, important things on the Internet. I think what I'm talking about is it does. The Internet is so hungry. Right. It will eat up every single piece of yourself that you give it.

Yes. It's never full.

Right. It's just ravenous. And I. And so I think you have to start with completely different questions. I think you way before you get to what will I give this starving monster? You say, how much energy do I have in this season? How much can I work in a given week? What are, you know, first, what are my commitments to the people in my life? What are their commitments to my own physical, spiritual and emotional health? Where are the places that are meaningful for me to either volunteer or connect or learn? You know, how do I build a beautiful whole life? And when I know that those things are happening, then what do I have? That's what's going to make good work, whether it's digitally or in other spaces. And then I think, I'm not at all saying that the quick turnaround is a problem, but I would say whenever possible, do five posts a week instead of seven and make the five better. Do three instead of five and make them better. When we skim through our work, our brains get shallower, our creativity suffers when we're just kind of pounding things out for deadlines. I don't think the best work comes out of us. So I think if all of us who are making things start to say, you can have it immediately or you can have it great, let's all be people who make it great. And I'm not saying it all has to be books that, like, you're going to read in 100 years. I'm saying, again, yeah, 500 words instead of 750 or three projects a month instead of four. What are ways to add a little margin so that you can add depth?

Yeah, and I think that the interesting thing with that is I think there is a soul piece to that. I think it feels better to create that type of work. And I also think, not that this was the intent with it, like, because that is better content that's coming from a deeper place. I think the impact of it is greater, which means, therefore that thing that you are creating is better. Like, it's a better piece of content, whatever that might be, whether it's a book or a blog post or a really well crafted intentional post on social media, which is a lead in to the next area that I wanted to talk to you about. Being that you are somebody that is a creator and being that you understand this world of not only publishing content, but also promoting that content. I'm curious to know how you disc as you had this journey from, you know, from perfect to present, or as the book title is present over perfect, being more present, how did you start to or attempt to disconnect yourself from the metrics that are presented to you from a career standpoint, whether that be followers or book sales or, you know, downloads, whatever they might be, how did you start to disconnect yourself or did you from those things in order to be more present and less of a servant to the continued growth and building of things?

Well, that's a great question. And I think we all struggle with it in all different ways. And we all have a Lot of different solutions for it. For me, one of the things that makes it, I think, a touch easier for me is that I'm really clear from a work and vocation standpoint that my overwhelming. The center of the target for me is books. So the books that I write are the most valuable thing that I make, and the metrics that go along with those are the ones that matter the most to me. So some of what that means is I'm not as caught up in, like, the blog numbers or the social media numbers. I am. If I have to worry about something, I do spend more time worrying about the book sales numbers. So social media and blog metrics have. Because they've never been my biggest thing, it doesn't make me better or worse. It just means if I'm going to get obsessive, frankly, it's checking my Amazon rank during release week. So I'm better with social media. But, man, I can get a little wound up with the Amazon ranking right.

Then and with that specifically to dig deeper on that. What was that like for you, having the mindset of some of the things you talk about in this book of being present, knowing that you could do a hundred events that would impact sales, like, how did. How did you balance that relatively direct correlation to working harder and therefore increasing that metric? And then saying, like, no, I'm just not going to do that, knowing that this metric that's important to me will be potentially negative, impacted, or maybe not.

Yeah. You know, I think some of what really helped me was I remembered with great clarity the pain of some of those other release seasons when I had gone way overboard in terms of events. So, you know, it's like when you're scared to run on your ankle after the cast comes off, you're like, I'm not breaking into a run right now. I know how much it hurt to break that bone. So we had very open conversations with my team, and I basically said to them, like, show me what would irresponsible look like, what would knock it out of the park look like, and what would good, solid effort, we're not mad at you, but you're not a machine look like, you know, and we aimed for that last one and we said this would represent you did everything you could without being totally over the line. And that's what we did. And I didn't know if it was gonna work. And what's funny about that is everybody has different. A different take on if it worked or not. And what worked, you know, after the fact, anytime you release anything People are like, you know, what did it was this. You were like, I don't know. But what I knew was, again, I can't stand on stages and sell the message of present over perfect and compromise my health and my marriage and my parenting in doing it. It just doesn't work.

Yeah. And in doing that, I would assume that you have to craft or strengthen this skill that is difficult for many people, which is the skill of saying no. And that's something that I think universally isn't an easy thing to do. But I think, especially if you in your previous life were somebody that was a yes person. So what was that like for you to transition to being able to say no a little bit more? And what would your advice be to people that want to do that but are maybe a little bit scared too?

That's such a good question. And I would say it's still something that I'm growing in and it's not. It's. I'm getting better at it, but I'm not all the way there. Well, this is, I think one of the ways that I used social media and my blog very intentionally was to talk pretty openly every so often about how, you know, I love being at home. It's so valuable for me to gather my friends around the table. I'm not traveling that much in this season. And that, you know, on one hand that's just an update on my life. On the other hand, it's a little bit of a signal to people who are thinking of maybe inviting me to a conference. I'm sort of saying like, I'm letting you know ahead of time, I'm probably gonna say no to this.

Yes.

And I think that really helped. And I still do that. You know, you won't. So maybe your friend's quote about the Abraham Lincoln's quote about the moral documents, the calendar and the checkbook, maybe our social media is another one. For years, all you would see is the wing shot and the green room and the hotel coffee. You could look at my life and you could tell this person's not home very much. And I very intentionally now am representing the reality that I am in my kitchen, I'm reading long form books, I'm going for walks with my kids. And I want to represent the reality of that so that what I'm not communicating to people is, hey, could you please invite me to 10 or 12 events this fall? You know, and that really helped me.

Yeah. So it's almost. There's maybe a better word than this, but you are creating kind of your personal brand as one that isn't like, like hustle, say yes to everything. I'm out there always doing conferences. You're saying these are the things that are valuable to me. So if somebody knows who you are and understands you, maybe through social media or even in the content that you're writing about, they understand that better. If you reply and say, hey, I'm spending this week with my family, I wish, you know, best of luck in your project, but I just can't make it totally.

So they're not like, well, I saw you, you were on six planes this week. Why don't you get on one for me?

Yes.

The two things that really helped me and this might sound so silly, but I actually, I've never worked. I've worked with a very, very part time assistant occasionally, but I've never had like a whole team. And that's okay to me. I like it being a little bit more nimble. But I currently employ someone and most of her job is replying no to emails because it's still pretty hard for me.

Yeah.

And it's easier for me for her to do it. And she does, you know, a couple a week. By no means her, she has a total different full time job. And we've written all these sort of standardized responses that are, you know, change from question to question. But I've sort of needed the training wheels of that. That's been hard for me. And then the last thing I would say is when you experience anxiety about saying no to something, it's worth taking a minute to figure out exactly why in that particular case. So one of the things I learned is that I got reasonably good at saying no to people I didn't know.

Sure.

But if it was like someone I went to college with or someone I had spoken at one of their events before, I learned that I have sort of an overdeveloped sense of loyalty. Like, well, I did meet that person one time. So obviously, yes, they need me. We're going through life together in a deep and meaningful way and I have to show up. And so even now, I know those are the hardest ones for me to say. But because we have relationship, I trust that I can explain to them what this is about in my life. And so I don't say no. I say, you know, what I'm learning about myself is that I do the best work and I live kind of the best life when I'm home. Most of the time I go through the whole thing. So it's not just a flat no I want you to understand where this comes from.

Mm. Yeah. It's context around the. No, explaining what. What it is it reminds me of. I had an invite to speak at our high school. It was some. I forget specifically what it was, but National Honor Society or something like that. And this is such an example of a learning experience for me. And saying no, is he. The person that was asking said, yeah, it's on April. It was like, is the weekend of Lindsay's birthday? So I think it was April 26, not Lindsay's birthday, but that weekend. And I said, you know what? I just want to wish I could. It's Lindsay's birthday that weekend and would just love to be around for her. It was like a little bit of a stretch because it's. It's 100% true and that was the reason for it. But it wasn't like on her birthday. Uh, but it was like, okay, this makes sense. And I want to. I don't want to be preparing for this thing on the weekend that Lindsay's birthday is. And then he replied back and he was like, actually, I got the dates wrong. It's. It's later on. It's like the next weekend. I was like, oh, shoot. And I had an email typed up, like, accepting it, and then I deleted it and I just rewrote it and I said, you know what? What I've learned about myself is that when I'm preparing a speech that I'm giving with. With me talking for a half an hour or 45 minutes, I get in my head and get totally consumed with it for a week or two weeks. And I said, I've realized this about myself and it's just not a good thing for me to do. And it was hard to type that out and to put my thoughts into an email and to say that. But it felt so good to just give context around the no and then have it be a flat no as opposed to like, this date doesn't work.

Totally. I love that. And I think you're actually touching on a really important thing. I think one of the reasons that I value my friendships with other, like, speakers and writers so much is they understand some of the maybe non obvious challenges of your work. Like, for example, public speaking is hard. And I think a lot of people, if they don't do it, when they ask you, they're like, why can you not just show up and do this?

For me, it's like a half an hour.

Totally. You're like, it's two weeks, it's crying twice. It's, you know, and, you know, some are easier and some are harder, but you do have to factor in, if you're honest, kind of the emotional weight of the entire thing.

Yep. And I think that's a big takeaway for people because as creators, you will get asked to, whether it, be partner on a project, advise on a project, especially in the space that we are in, a lot of people will have a good understanding of certain areas of the Web, and people are always wanting to learn more about that. So a really important takeaway. One of the questions that I had maybe ties into this idea of the broken ankle that you talked about and. And getting to this point where you break your ankle and you're like, I can't do this anymore. And remembering that feeling of what it was like to run on a broken ankle. But what about the people that their ankle's a little bit sore, but they're like, I can still go out and run today. Uh, but every once in a while it comes up, they feel that. So they're kind of on the. On the way to a broken ankle, but they haven't reached that pain point yet. And you talk about how a lot of times we need to hit that pain point in order to fully realize the need to correct. But what about the people that aren't fully there yet? How can they check in with themselves to get a good understanding of where they're at and course correct before they have a broken ankle?

Well, one of the things that I'm. I'm learning is, unfortunately, in a lot of these things, I'm the last to know. But I do have some very helpful kind of intel if I want it. My husband sure knows, my kids know, my best friends know, my parents know. And so I'm learning to ask them very directly to reflect back what they're seeing in me, because the stress cracks become apparent to them when I still think we're doing great.

What do those questions look like? How do you have that conversation?

Well, you know, like, with, you know, my best friends. So my kind of circle of best girlfriends are this cooking club that I talked about a little bit in Bread and wine. So we've been meeting together at least once a month for nine years. And a couple of them are like, my cousins and my college roommate, my high school friend. So we have a lot of history together. And so. But when we'll sit around the table and I'll say, you know, when I look at this next season, these are the couple things on my plate I'm trying To decide. Yes to two out of three. Yes to three. You know, how do you guys gauge, you know, kind of like my general connection level, my sense of, like, restedness or soul health? When you see me with the kids, like, when you hear what I complain about, how do you kind of gauge how close I am to that bad edge? And we really do have conversations like that because I've learned I'm always the optimist. I'm like, the ankles, fine.

Limping along.

Totally. And, you know, I have an 11 year old, and we went out to dinner the other night, and one of the questions I always ask him whenever it's just he and I say, you know, if you had to describe what it's like to live in a house with me in like, the last three months, what would you say? How do I seem? What would be some words that describe me? And if I wanted to make some changes to be a better parent to you, what would be two or three things I could do? Well, I mean, they'll tell you, and that's really valuable.

Yeah, that's great. I'm jotting that down. I love the idea of offering people that you are closest with the opportunity to speak to. I don't know if you'd call them your blind spots, but essentially the things that you don't fully see because you are fully you and aren't able to look at you. Yes, that's great.

And you have, you know, like, you have a belief of yourself that's a little bit aspirational. Right. You think you might be doing better than you are. And then your spouse or your best friend is like, I have some hard news, but it's. It's for your healing, it's for your growth.

That's great. So, Shauna, we're coming to the end here, but want to have a chance for you to just speak openly to the people that are at that point in their life where they're feeling frantic, they're feeling overwhelmed, uh, they kind of feel this crushing weight, or maybe they are like, you know what? I think maybe something is wrong with my ankle. Uh, what would you say to those people and what would your advice be in order for them to start the process of. Of making the transition and kind of leaving frantic behind and starting to live a little bit more of a simpler, soulful way of living as you talk about in your book?

I would say two things. One of them tying a little bit back into what we were just talking about in terms of feedback, but then also some of, like, the Metrics of social media. One of the things I feel like I learned the hard way is, okay, if you think about like adjusting the volume on a bunch of different inputs, it's very easy to let the social media or blog numbers volume get really high. It's the loudest thing you listen to. Their comments can send you back into bed because they're terrible or to the moon because you're so amazing. So it's easy to let strangers with social media accounts tell you who you are. And if your work is good, that is so dangerous. And so what I really work on is I work on twisting that knob and the social media and blog metric and Amazon review and rating numbers. I can barely hear them because I turn up that circle of people and their feedback really, really loud. They're the ones that I listen to.

And when you say that circle, these are your closest friends, your family.

Yeah, like you know, my agent, maybe two of my writer peers, my husband, my best girlfriends, my parents. A small circle of people. I listen to them. If they think I'm off 1%, I make a change 1%. I listen very closely. If they think I'm on the right track, I keep going. But I, I cannot get caught in if the Internet likes me or not. It's a losing battle and it will make me insane. And so I work really hard to turn down that volume level and then turn up the volume of the voices that I really trust and that are connected to my life in real ways long term.

Yeah, I think that's great. Hard to do. Really hard to do. But I think that's good. What a follow up question with that. What does that look like to turn those down? Is that a mental thing of saying these aren't these don't hold as much weight or are there like tactical tangible things that you're doing in order to not have those be as present?

Well, I would say they're. This sounds crazy but you know, like 12 years in, I can tell, I can, I get this like little itch like I'm going to go read my Amazon reviews and no one ever decides to do that when they're having a good day.

For sure. For sure.

Right, right. You're not like laying out at a beautiful resort drinking an umbrella drink like I'm gonna check my Amazon reviews. It's when like 10 other things have already gone wrong. It's freezing cold and it gets dark at 4:30. Cause it's the Midwest.

Let's just pour gasoline on this fire and let it burn.

Yes. And so I'm proud to say, and I will say out loud sometimes, or I will, like, text my friends as though I'm like an addict. I will say, like, ask me if I checked my Amazon reviews today, because today would not be the day to do that. There have even been times when I've written. About a year ago, probably, I got the single worst email I've ever received. It was like, paragraphs and paragraphs of why this person was angry with what I had done. And it ended with capital letters, stop writing. Oh, okay. What do you think I should do?

The only reason I laugh is because, like, as a fellow creator, very different niche, different industry, but like. And I think everybody that's listening to this can relate to that. But it's one of the hard things is you're. You're on your own when you receive that. And it's so individually directed. It's not like, you know, Shauna ink. It's like, this is me individually. It feels different if it's at, you know, Coca Cola or something like that. But it's. What a burden to have to bear. Those things. It's. It's a reality for so many people.

But one of the ways that I take some of the pain out of them is by talking about it, either telling some friends or telling a writer friend. I'd say that's another reason that I love having writer friends that I'm very close to, because we can text each other and be like, I just got the worst one star review ever. And invariably one of them will text back and be like, oh, my gosh, no, let me show you one of mine. It's so bad. It helps me to realize it happens to all of us. We all every. If you're going to create things, you're going to get criticized. And so it starts to get a little easier over time. But I would also say I'm pretty careful at this point. I try not to spend too much time on the Internet. I find that it does not bring out the best in my thought life or my just sort of overall demeanor. There are things I love about it, but I love it. Maybe the way I love, let's say, pizza, in that I very much love it very deeply, but if I had it three meals a day, we'd probably have some problems. So a very limited diet of it is the only healthy way for me.

Yeah. And I feel the same way. Social media for me, and this isn't true for everybody. Um, but it's like I have to sip on it. Like, I Block the Facebook feed when I log in. Don't have an Instagram account. Uh, we have one for a dog that I post to about twice a year. Um, but it's the same thing where I've realized for me, like, the, the way that I feel after engaging in a deep way is usually not better. Uh, and that's not true for everybody. Again, that's just for me individually. So any other takeaways for people as they're making this transition or things that you'd want to speak into people's lives here?

One thing that really, really helped me, and it sounds sort of, maybe I don't, crazy, it was crazy for me, was to intentionally carve out silence and solitude, to sort of listen to your life and your emotions and your desires. My life was so outrageously over scheduled. And you know, I love to read, I love being online. I love listening to music. The volume level of my life. And I had little kids. The volume level of my life was so high that I couldn't hear kind of the deep, like rumblings of like, something's wrong on the inside. When I started spending even five minutes a day in total silence, not reading or writing, but just sitting and kind of listening, I became aware of how off track I had been. And I started to recover some of the desires that I had held, what I would call like my true essential self, my identity. And so I would say, if you suspect that maybe you're running too fast and maybe in the wrong direction, or if you suspect that maybe you are living according to someone else's voice or narrative for what your life should look like or what should be meaningful to you, the practice of silence will become sort of like your anchor. It will hold you in the storm. It will keep you from floating away. It will ground you deeply. And that practice is one that, especially if you're off course, it's very difficult. When I first started doing it, I would find I would get angry or anxious or I would cry. It's like all the bad stuff came when I was silent and I was like, guess what? This is a bad idea. Look how sad I am.

I'm not having fun doing this.

This is not working for me. But I found, and this is true now, after practicing that for several years now I recognize silence as the kind of safe, restorative practice that returns me to that essential self.

And this might sound like the answer would be obvious, but I think it'd be helpful for people to hear. How do you do that? I mean, it's like you Sit in silence for five minutes. But are there or tricks or advice that you'd give for people? Cause it's kind of a scary thing if you're not. If you're used to the volume being at 11, to have five minutes of silence. So what would your advice be for people that want to give that a try?

Well, I would say I totally understand that it's scary. If I can do it, anyone can do it. Like, people tease me. I will literally be like listening to a podcast and also an album and watching a show and writing. I mean, I have how many different juggling files in my brain are open? Right. And I've got something on the stove, so I understand. And I literally. I started off with a five minute timer on my phone and I always found that I did better if I sat outside, even if it was a little cold. Five minutes. And not while you're driving, not while you're in the shower, not while you're chopping. Totally inactive. When I got my body, when my body was no longer active, my mind could start to unravel a little bit. And I literally did it five minutes at a time. And I started first thing in the morning and last thing before bed. And over time, I worked up to longer periods of time or more often in the day. And you know, now sometimes I can do like eight minutes. I don't even have to look at myself. You know, it's not a paragon. I'm not like a contemplative or anything, but it regulates something inside of me that felt out of control for a long time.

Cool. I think that will be, if nothing else, just that simple practice could be hugely impactful for people. And I think it's a great note to wrap up on. But before we do, Shana, where can people find your books and learn a little bit more about you, knowing that we'll link to all of these places as well?

Sure. My books are all on Amazon. My website is just shawnaniequist.com and on social media on Instagram it's Snequist. Same with Twitter. And then Facebook is just Shawna an Equist. But I definitely like Instagram the best.

Awesome. And we'll link to that and make sure that people follow along with you there. Shauna, truly a pleasure to speak with you. Thanks so much for being on the podcast.

Totally my pleasure. Thank you.

Hello. Hello, Hello. And thank you so much for tuning in to the Food Blogger Pro podcast this week. If you're interested in in winning one of the copies of Shauna's book present over Perfect. Here are the deets you can either leave a comment on the blog post for this episode by visiting foodbloggerpro.com 145 or you can leave us a review on itunes by either visiting foodbloggerpro.com iTunes or by visiting the podcast app on your phone. This way also gives you a chance chance to be featured on an upcoming episode of the podcast. So after you've left a review or a comment, please email us@podcastoodbloggerpro.com with a screenshot of the review or comment. Easy as that. This giveaway will run for one week and will close on April 17, 2018.

Good luck.

And now it's time for our Reviewer of the Week. And this one comes from Jodi from the blog Growing Book by Book and it says, I look forward to each episode. There's always a great takeaway from each interview. Bjork does a great job at interviewing the guests, making sure the listeners are always getting the information they need. I'm not even a food blogger and I still listen every week. Thank you so much, Jodi. We're so thrilled that you still find something valuable from the podcast even though your focus isn't on food. We really appreciate all of you for listening this week. Thank you so much. And from all of us here at fbphq, make it a great week.