167: The Importance of Investing in Yourself with Jessica Gavin

In this episode, I talk about a fun and helpful way to diversify your income, and Bjork chats with Jessica Gavin about her new cookbook and finding unique opportunities in food blogging. Hey hey, wonderful listeners. You are listening to the Food Blogger Pro Podcast. I'm Alexa, the General Manager of Food Blogger Pro and the editor producer person behind the Food Blogger Pro Podcast. If you're a bit confused by hearing my voice right now rather than Bjork's, I get it. You typically hear from me at the end of each podcast episode. We call that the outro, and that's when I feature our listener reviewer of the week. But you'll be hearing my voice at the beginning for the next couple of weeks because Bjork will be taking some time off to spend with his and Lindsay's new baby girl. We are all just so incredibly excited for Bjork and Lindsay, and we are just completely thrilled that they're taking some time off to snuggle with their new little bub. That being said, things on the podcast will continue to run exactly like they have in the past. Bjork recorded a bunch of really exciting and helpful podcast episodes before he left, so it'll be smooth sailing until he comes back. With all of that being said, I'd like to take a second to thank our sponsors for for this episode of the podcast, WP Tasty. WP Tasty is our plugins for Food bloggers business and each plugin there are three of them now. They're focused on structured data, SEO and affiliate income, and you can learn more by going to wptasty.com but I want to focus a bit on that last topic that I mentioned, Affiliate income. If you've been in the blogging space for a bit, chances are you've heard of affiliate income. And it's just a way to get paid for promoting products and services that you love. Which is pretty cool, right? There are tons of considerations to think about when starting affiliate marketing, and the fine folks over at wptasty wrote just an awesome comprehensive guide about it for you. You can go to wptasty.com affiliate-marketing to learn more about common affiliate marketing programs, how to disclose your affiliate links, and so much more. And now the episode. I had the complete pleasure and honor to meet Jessica Gavin in person at a conference earlier this year, and she was just so much fun to hang out with. She's sweet and friendly, but she's also a total boss. First of all, she's a food scientist. How cool is that? She also released a Cookbook earlier this year, runs a successful food blog, and is constantly learning new skills and techniques to help her readers. I am so excited for you to learn more about her story and how she got to where she is today in this episode. Let's dive in.

Jessica, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks for having me, Bjork.

Yeah, I'm really excited to chat, and this is a fun podcast interview because we've met in person, and I actually think the last time that we connected, it was this brief interaction at a conference, and we were both sitting at the back table, and I looked over and I was like, oh, Jessica, I don't even remember if we were able to connect, but we saw each other and did a little wave, so it's good to connect again.

Yes, absolutely. And thank you for inviting me to your show.

Yeah, for sure. So we're going to talk a little bit about your story and talk a little bit about your blog and knowing that we've been connected for a while here online and have interfaced with your husband as well on the Food Blogger Pro forums and have interacted with kind of back and forth before. So excited to connect with you and hear your story a little bit. We do origin stories a lot on the podcast, and you have a really unique story in that your blog and your online business wasn't a shift into food. You went to school for this, so your background, your expertise, and kind of your story has always been around food. So can you talk about how you decided to go into the field that you're in, which is, you know, being a food scientist and even what that means?

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm from the East Bay area, which is part of Northern California, from a small town called Alameda. And it's a huge melting pot of just different cultures and cuisines. And I've just immediately always known that I've had a passion for food from a very young age. And actually, my grandfathers, when they immigrated from China in the 50s, were actually rival chefs in the same Chinese kitchen.

Oh, my gosh.

Yeah. So I almost feel like it's kind of ingrained in my DNA a little bit. And my mom and dad ended up meeting and they became high school sweethearts, so they essentially had to, you know, break bread and put the guards down and kind of make it work for the family. So it just is really, for me, food has always been, you know, not something for nourishment, but also just an essential way to connect with others and cultivate bonds. So that's something that I learned. And you Know, we carry on throughout my, my family, we're all really passionate about food. I actually really wanted to go to culinary school. Like, that was kind of my straight path. And I worked at this incredible European bakery for four years in high school. Like, every day, the pastry chefs would produce fresh, you know, brioche breads and focaccia and opera cake and croissants. And I was just so, you know, inspired every day. But, you know, they'd always tell me, like, jess, do not get into this industry. You're going to break your back. Like, you work so hard. It's so hard running a small business, especially a retail store. Just keep this your hobby or your passion. But being as stubborn as I am, you know, I took their advice a little bit, and I was thinking, you know what, maybe culinary school is not a no, but maybe just not right now, not right out of high school. And so one of my family friends, you know, as I was talking to my parents about, you know, what I wanted to do for college, they said, you know, have you heard of food science? And I hadn't, you know, I heard of home economics and things like that, but no one had introduced me to food science before. And I did really feel like I was so curious about how does flavors interact? How do ingredients interact together in a recipe and how can I troubleshoot it and make it better? And just kind of going beyond just following the steps of an already designed recipe. And as, you know, like, sometimes if those aren't designed very well, there's failures. And in your own kitchen, you have different. Your own setup, so you just kind of never know. It's kind of a gamble or time in the kitchen. And so I was really excited when I heard about food science, and I actually, you know, learned so much more about food in a really different way. So for food science, you know, that's different from culinary arts is, you know, you're really focused on delivering food products to the masses, and you're using food science and technology and kind of the study of the physical side biological and chemical compositions of food and. And its commercial application. So I don't know, what is your favorite product that you buy in the store? Bjork.

Oh, food related. I would say it's. I'll say this because it's sitting right in front of me. It is Lacroix.

Okay. So, and Lacroix, I think now they probably have over 10 SKUs of different flavors, but the base is the same. Right. It's bubbly, sparkly water with no calories. But it has different flavors for, you know, what mood are you in, or, you know, are you coconut person or mango? And essentially a food scientist would design the formula, you know, select different flavors for that product and help to commercial commercialize it. So that's something in a different aspect versus culinary arts. When you're in the kitchen and you're making, you know, food for people who are immediately dining in your facility, it's a little bit different. So I've been able to see the food industry from a lot of different perspectives, and especially from the farm to fork perspective and supply chain. So it's definitely helped me get like a bigger insight about how what consumers want and then using that also in my blog and. But actually being able to interact with the consumers, which I don't get to do that all the time.

Yeah. And that was actually going to be the next question that I was going to ask. Because so often what happens for people who start a blog or an online business that has to do with food, they'll make this shift because they just are so passionate about either cooking or baking or a certain subset of that. Like maybe it's a diet that's had a big impact on their life. You have an interesting story in that you were already doing the thing that you set out to do, and it was in the food space. It was food science. And so in some ways it felt like you had kind of checked this box, like, hey, I'm doing it, but. But yet there is still this part of you that wanted to do more with that, or maybe it was something beyond that. And so you started your site. So can you talk about for you what that the moment when you said, hey, I want to go a little bit deeper or explore this area of creating my own thing and launching your site, what was the reasoning behind that when you started it?

Absolutely, I was really fortunate that was working full time. My company supported me to actually go to culinary school. So I actually realized my dream and actually that was part of my negotiation for the job. I literally said, do you support me eventually going to culinary school? Because I really think if I can get a global perspective of how to food for people, it would help in our product development. And they said, absolutely. So about a year after I started my career, I started going to culinary school at night. And when I finished culinary school about three years later, which happened to be about a year into being married to my amazing husband, Jason, we were on our anniversary trip in Napa and we had just gone to the French Laundry, like bucket list Item. Thomas Keller is one of the most influential chefs that I studied in culinary school. And we were just having a conversation about, okay, what's next? You're working full time as a food science professional, you have this culinary degree. Do you want to shift paths? And said, you know what? When I was 14, 15, yes, I wanted to be this master chef and work in the kitchens and on the line. But at this point I don't feel like that's where my heart is right now. And also I just realized after stodging, which is like working for free in the kitchens after culinary school, that I wasn't very fast at prepping. So I was like, you know what, they're probably, I'm going to slow the business down. But I was really good at recipe development which I learned so many skills from my current job. So he suggested, you know, do you want to start a food blog? And I honestly looked at him with like crazy eyes, like, babe, you know, I'm not a technical person in terms of the computers and back end coding because you know, Jason had already two online businesses going and stuff that he had started as a tech entrepreneur in college that I was like, I know that's like your wheelhouse, but it's really not mine. And he's like, alright, let's just make a deal. You focus on content creation and what you love to do and you know, I'll make sure that the site's running smoothly and I'll, you know, teach you what you need to know to get the post up. And at that point too, he was doing photography for his business. So he said, I'll do the business or I'll do the photography. And you know, you can pick up whenever you're ready. So that's how that started in July of 2012, about six years ago.

Got it. And so one of the questions that I love to ask people that have a similar story to what would be the story for Lindsey and I, which is kind of similar where like I have this interest in kind of the entrepreneurial tech side of things and, and you're able to jump in and do the content. You know, Jason was super supportive, I was super excited about Lindsey during a blog, but also knowing that there are people who either have somebody that's like a spouse or significant other that isn't technical or sometimes even people that aren't supportive. So I always love to do a little breakdown to in real time kind of brainstorm and think about what those things are for those people who maybe aren't in the Same situation. So when you were first starting, what were the things that, that you were not doing that were essential to the business? And I feel like it's helpful to name those so people can have an idea of, hey, these are the things that would be kind of on the technical end that either I can find somebody to help out with, and there are people that can do that. We have one of our Food Blogger Pro experts is Andrew from Blog Tutor, and that's kind of what his business is as he handles the technical stuff. But what were some of those things that most helpful that Jason did so people can have an understanding of kind of what that looks like from a technical perspective?

Yeah, absolutely. I think just, you know, when we first got like a very basic WordPress site, it was just understanding how to use WordPress, how to use Yoast. I think we were still figuring out how to do the alt text, like everything that you need to add in so that, you know, your, for your pictures are picked up and understood in Google and categorized and.

Yeah. And for those that aren't familiar, can you explain what Yoast is?

Yeah, it's a search engine optimization tool built in to WordPress. So as you're writing your, your blog post, it'll tell you, is the ease of reading good, you know, on your site, have you hit, you know, your major keywords that you had, you know, assigned in your post without it being, you know, overly keyword stuffing, you know, so. And then, you know, just kind of. Yeah, so the user readability and just a way for you to have hit the basics on what would essentially make up like a decent post and make it easy for the reader to understand and for Google to pick up and to scan.

Got it. Cool. And for those that are newer to the podcast, if you scroll back in the archives, last year we did an interview with actually the founder of that company. It's episode number 91, which you can get to by going to foodbloggerpro.com 91 and he talks about some of those things that you talk about optimization and specifically for SEO for food blocks. So you can be sure to check that out. Really important plugin, but basic idea being like, okay, getting that stuff set up, getting things implemented. And for those that feel like they're at the point where it's overwhelming and they don't know who they can turn to for that, I would encourage you to, if you're a Food Blogger Pro member, check out some of the courses that we have, go through those. If you're not, make sure to Check out any of the communities that exist or if you have the budget, you can and you're serious about doing it. It's worth finding people who have a business built around supporting people who don't want to do the technical stuff. And like I mentioned before, Andrew from Blog Tutor, who is a food blogger pro expert, would be a good resource for that. So anyways, a little bit of a rabbit trail, but as much as possible want to address that when that comes up. So you guys had kind of worked together and you say, hey, this is something that we're going to do. We're going to start off, we're going to be building a site together and. And you were handling the content. Eventually, I would guess that you took over the photography. Or is that something that is still something that Jason is doing?

No, absolutely. I took over the photography about two years ago. And actually it was one of those things where I would be making the recipe, you know, get it to where I want. But perhaps unless it was the weekend, you know, Jason wasn't there, so I'd have to wait. And the food was starting to look stodgy and just not fresh. And it just felt so disjointed. But, like, I have to give him so much credit for him not being a food photographer and literally, like opening up books and just going online and, you know, doing the research to kind of essentially help initially train me to take it over. And we essentially would do all of our posting mostly or photography at night. So we started with artificial light. So we became very proficient in that. And then one day, I don't know, I think I was like, oh, I think I want to learn photography. But just kind of half kidding. And he's like, all right, take this apple and make it look good.

Yeah.

Talking about, no, like, give me some more instructions. Like, you have to just like hold the camera, touch and feel it and start playing around and taking the photos and seeing how to use utilize the light and manipulate the light. So I started there. And so he, as kind of time progressed, he would partner with me on the photos and kind of give me some direction. And then I was like, all right, great, done. He's like, you need to do post production.

You are only halfway there.

Like, I wait, no, I don't want to do Lightroom or Photoshop. Like, that's crazy talk. And there's like so much, okay, you could be behind the camera and take the photo, but understanding your photo and the quality and what your perspective is is really that editing piece. So then he started to train me on that. And that was about up Until May of 2016, right before we went to the first, the very first everything food conference. And Ewan and Lindsay were there.

Yeah.

And I was very excited because I had just signed up for her Tasty food photography workshop in June. So at that time I was still very intimidated and not sure and I had finally published a few posts, you know, with my own photography. But I was just really looking forward to that specific set focus time, you know, over in your guys studio in Minneapolis. So that actually was a huge turning point going to that photography workshop. And I'm not just saying it because I love you guys.

I'll let Lindsay know as well.

Yeah, I think on day two, I literally I was taking photos and I was using the artificial light and playing with, you know, the different surfaces and props and food and I just had that like, you know, that butterfly moment and that glowing of like I love food photography. Like I'm not good at it yet, but I want to be and I want to learn more. So I think just being able to have a set time for a couple days with people who are passionate about what you're passionate about and learning, you know, as well, and having someone like Lindsey, who's such a great teacher be there one on one to guide you and to show you her process and then you, you know, try to do, you know, recreate it on your end and you guys have the most amazing light in your studio. So also getting kind of the confidence to build up doing natural light photography as well just really was a huge, huge game changer for me.

That's awesome. When you would there be things, whether from that workshop or from in after experimenting and iterating, would there be things that you could distill it down to that really made a difference? And it could either be really tangible things like a certain setting, or it could be maybe concepts that you developed as you became more confident with your photography. Like for those that are in that place of being a little bit still feeling like the ultimate beginner with photography, what. What advice would you give them, having recently gone through that transition?

Yeah, absolutely. I think really keeping it simple, I think because when I first started doing, I was started blogging, but I wasn't doing the photography, I would just kind of load up the set. Like I would put everything on and like this looks great. Okay, take the photo. And you know, Jason would start pulling things away. I'm like, are you crazy? Like I just spent time putting it all in there. Yeah. And he's like, no. Like, it just doesn't look right. So really just, you know, starting with a few basic things, like, the focus is the food, for me, at least. So I try to make food look as good as possible. So I think about styling the food first. So I choose a couple props, like if it's a bowl or plate, and I don't even think about, you know, silverware yet, but a bowl or plate and maybe like, a textile. And I try to get the food in there, and I try to make it look as, you know, fresh as possible. Have, you know, if you're like, I just did a beef stew, you know, like, make sure I had a little bit of gravy so that there's shine. And what Lindsey likes to say is kiss the light, you know, so that there's dimension and vibrancy and kind of that glow in your shot. So just first focusing on the food, to me, that's the most important thing, because that's what we're trying to sell, you know, and to click on and make the recipe. And then you start using your props and looking at the directions of the light. And if you're wanting to reflect on front or if you like shadows, you know, kind of how to do that. And it's just a lot of experimentation and playing around. Like, some people, like, I put my surface on a kitchen table, whereas a lot of people put their surfaces on the ground, you know, so you kind of have to learn the lighting in your house. So what I like to do is, you know, when I first start, do a couple of test shots, you know, and I actually tether now so I can see on the bigger screen, you know, how the lights looking and how everything's positioned.

Can you share how you do that? For those that aren't familiar with the process, like, even just at a high level, the things you need and what that looks like.

Yeah, I have, like, a large tethering cable, like, it's a USB cord that I hook up to my laptop, and then it connects to the camera, it connects to Lightroom. So I don't use Lightroom to edit. I know a lot of people do. Lindsay does. But I use Lightroom to at least pop up the photos. And it kind of artificially it gives you a preview, but it doesn't actually save the photos anywhere until you actually export it. So it's really like a viewing tool for me. And then I. You know, there's just a couple buttons you click to, like, start tethering. And basically, you'll take A photo, and then it'll transfer that photo to the desktop and you'll be able to see, you know, oh, okay. How is the bowl in the right place? Is the food in the place? Is my exposure? Right. How's the depth of field? Things like that. And then you can actually star and select which ones you like. And then for me, I can export that directly in the cloud that we have in our computer to start editing upstairs into lightroom. So that helps kind of refine the price process. I used to take probably like 200 photos every session looking through the small viewfinder, you know, so you can't really tell granularity, like, oh, you know, am I in focus? So tethering definitely has helped me for sure improve the quality of my photos.

Got it. Yeah. That's one of those things we did that was a big change for us with the video. I'm not super involved with video anymore, but for the videos that I did help with early on with Printer vm, we would do the same thing where it's like I would climb up on a ladder and then look at the viewfinder. And then when we started to do video more professionally, had a team that people working on it at that time was Alana. Now we have Emily, who's our incredible video specialist. But Alana said, well, we should probably have a viewfinder so we can. So you don't have to climb up on a ladder. I was like, oh my gosh, mind blowing. Like, this is the greatest thing ever. And same thing for photography where you can hook that up and be able to see kind of in real time and also on a bigger screen what you're shooting. So you do a lot. So you have a lot on your plate. You have two kids, you are working as a food scientist, you have your blog and you've also. There's an app that you've done for your blog. Would love to talk about that and have also done a cookbook. So before we get into talking about those specific things, we're recording this early mid August, August 10th, and you have a post from the 8th, the 6th, the 3rd, the 1st. So you're also publishing content consistently. And I know one of the biggest struggles that people have is time and making time in order to continually produce high quality content and continually grow. And that's something that you guys have been able to do. And actually you and Jason reported on that. You did the monthly income report, which is fun to follow along with not doing those anymore. But for people that want to look back, they can Kind of track your progress as you grew your blog. And so you can see, like, okay, this is something you guys are doing. You're building, you're growing, and yet there's so much that you're doing. So I would love to hear you talk a little bit about your strategy as it relates to the time that you're investing in the site and how you do that while still, number one, staying sane, and then number two, still having time for those other things, like whatever it might be, family, friends, and consistently publishing content on your blog. So how do you do it?

Yeah, absolutely. It definitely is a challenge. But I feel like blogging is like a muscle. So when we first started year one, I think I blogged probably once a month. And obviously that doesn't give you a lot of opportunity to share content and get exposure, but I think I still. I didn't know what my purpose was, and my focus was for my blog. So as I started to get more of a followership and readers, I kind of started to understand, okay, what did they want? You know, and also, as my life changed from being, you know, married and newlyweds and with a ton of time, you know, to spend just kind of my content changed a lot. So I think we decided, like, we did a kind of proof of concept. Like, we started with a very basic template, WordPress, and then finally after maybe a year and a half, we decided to update the site with JBox. And she did a whole beautiful web design is what I have now. But because of that, I thought, you know, I need to create content. Like, I can't launch a new site and have only one post a month. Like 12 posts. That's crazy, you know. So then just decided to turn it up to two posts for that whole year. Let's do two posts until we launch the site in. In January of the next year. So it kind of. There was these little points of, like, a push, like, okay, you got to do this. There's a motivation, you know, like, I want to be able to share something. I want to have some valuable content and something to share with the world. And then the next year, you know, we decided we wanted to start, you know, having family. And I think for a lot of bloggers or a lot of friends that I have too, when they're in this position of like, oh, my gosh, I'm so incredibly busy with probably working full time and working my blog. Can we have a baby? Which is really strange because, you know, usually that's not. You don't think of it as like, is that a priority or not? But they want to know, can you do it? And we just decided from that point was we really need to create a strategy, an editorial calendar about what we're going to be posting. And so, you know, Jason acts like, as also, like, a managing editor for me. So we collaborate all the time on, like, what is our strategy for the website and what kind of content do I want to produce. So, you know, we started to create a physical board that I have up in our office. That's the calendar, and it's a dry erase board. And every month I change it and write in what I would like the days I want to publish something and what that would be, and then that's my target for that week. And then I can see it out through each month, and then I use Google Calendar to do any future planning. And when I was on maternity leave with my daughter Olivia last year, we did it out for a year. And it doesn't mean that that's something that I'm going to always stick to. It's very dynamic, but at least I'm not wasting time thinking about it or sitting on my computer or, like, researching. It's. You spend like two, three solid days just thinking about editorial. And that has really helped. So from, like, now, I publish at least three times a week. That's my goal. And of course, you know, I give myself a little leeway, like if. If it's a big weekend. Like, last weekend was my. My son's fourth birthday. Now it's like, okay, maybe we'll publish two, you know, but when I was on maternity leave, actually for six months with my daughter Olivia last year, I decided that I was gonna go five. I was gonna go five times a week publishing content.

Crazy.

I just wanted to see. And, you know, something that you had said on a previous podcast episode was like, treat these things like. Except experiments, not like you. You always want to have the best intention and commit. Like, oh, it's, you know, January 1st. I want to be healthy, and then what happens, you know, like a few days later. But if you treat it like you said, as an experiment, you feel like, okay, this is research and development. We're gonna see if we can handle it. Let's see what we can do. And because it does take a lot of mind space to do, you know, go from three to five. But I just wanted. I wanted the business to grow, and I wanted to see if that was an avenue to do so. And so, like I said, it's kind of like that muscle of like, okay, I did one, now I can do two a week, now I'm doing three and five. And for me, candidly, in terms of the balance, once I started going back to work in April, I did six months of five times a week with a lot of diverse content. You know, it wasn't just recipes, it was recipes, science, tips, how to's such step by steps, things about tools, things about, you know, ingredients and pantry items. So I was really looking at my blog like a singular destination website that is like, hey, can I be the answer girl, you know, for anything culinary science and cooking. And so I just took a different perspective last year of how I was going to approach my editorial and how I was going to market my brand. And that that helped me lay things out and being able to execute essentially themed weeks, which I want to eventually turn into themed months, like a magazine. And so that's how I've approached it. And something that really helped me with that actually while I was doing the app and cookbook last year is we heard your podcast with Megan from Culinary Hill and we got together with Cook it Media and I worked with Lori Buckle for about three months doing like an overhaul on my brand strategy. So that, that helped me a lot too.

I'm so glad to hear that. I would love to dig into a few of those things. So what do you feel like in the. Let's start with this. So in the kind of experimental stage of publishing five times a week, what did you learn during that time? And that's wide open question. It could be about content, it could be about yourself. Like, what were the things that were the biggest takeaw that you are now implementing kind of in your day to day after doing a long stretch of producing a lot of content.

Yeah, you know, I started to think about my content differently in terms of cornerstone content. So instead of just publishing a recipe that I think is gonna be super yummy and people are gonna think is great, it's more, let's build on content that I can interlink and help create a story about food. So for example, 300,000, you know, instant pots were sold, you know, during prime day a couple weeks ago.

Is that what it was?

Oh my God, yeah, it was crazy. So, gosh, get some stock in that. But yeah, you know, understanding trends and how dynamic the food industry is and how people are so open to trying new things, new tools, new ingredients. Just say, if I had that awareness and what I've already done is I created a Electric Pressure Cooker 101. That's my cornerstone content. And that way for anything else I publish about pressure cooking, I could link to that. But I'm creating this great base of knowledge and education for my readers so that if they did want to take their understanding and knowledge about cooking to the next level, they could just read that basics and be like, okay, let me level set. Okay, now I know how to the basics of how to use it. Okay, now I have a little bit more confidence and curiosity to try a recipe. And then, you know, you can start getting into, oh, tools for, you know, the instant pot or like, oh, I want to steam eggs. Okay, what are you gonna need? And that turns into another story about eggs and all the things you can do with it. So just kind of interlinking and weaving things so that people do kind of get lost and they're in your side and they want to stay because you have more reasons for them to not just let me print this recipe and.

Go, yeah, I think that that's really a valuable concept for people to think about and apply this idea of your content not being singular, siloed pieces of content that you hope a lot of people go to, but being this kind of spiderweb of content where everything is connected. And then like you said, these pieces of pillar content, which would be kind of the shining stars, the things that you would focus the most on and revisit and refine and treating them almost as live pieces of content versus a one time publish and be done. Something I've been thinking a lot about just across the board with all of the different content that we have in different places and how valuable it is to be aware of that content and to not just think about the next new thing. So I feel like that's a huge takeaway. How about with cooked media? What were the big takeaways when you did the. Went through the process of kind of brand identity and exploring who you are and what your brand is. What were the big takeaways?

Absolutely. Like, I think what I had, you know, learned or, you know, of the trials and tribulations of like figuring out what the focus is, was I with the website. You know, I found a home to put my creativity. But when I started talking to Lori about, you know, who am I serving or what am I doing, who am I helping, that really helped me to realize, like, and she says it like, this is not, this is still your home, but it's not just your home now, it's your readers home. So you have to really understand who your readers are. So each time we met we kind of looked at a different piece of the brand strategy. So of course, it started with, okay, you know, what is your purpose and what are you delivering? And for me, it's like, okay, my goal is to teach home cooks how to excel in the kitchen and grow their confidence through science. And then figuring out, okay, well, how are you going to do that? And how do we match it up to what they need? And what they need is tastier, easier, faster meals so that everyone, you know, can eat at the dinner table and not sacrifice on taste. So how could I, you know, use my knowledge and my skills to help those people? So I think that's something that I love about you and Lindsay, is it's always like, how can we help people? And I think that's kind of that key connection point is I felt not, I guess, maybe perhaps selfish with my blog at first in terms of, hey, I'm just gonna publish something that I like, or here's a childh favorite, but it's very complicated to do, or, you know, it's just more of a passion project, but really, you know, answering needs. And for me, becoming a mom and not having time but still wanting to deliver delicious, healthy meals to my family really changed the type of content that I was also producing. So I felt like it finally was matching up my lifestyle with the blog and what my readers were looking for.

And it's kind of this, like, Venn diagram, where, as much as possible, you want to get those all overlapping. Where what? The blog, your readers in your life. How can you get those things to overlap? And that being the sweet spot. And the hard thing is that there's always going to be those parts that don't overlap, and you kind of wish they could. Like, there's going to be parts of your life that you wish could be a part of the blog, and they're not. Even though your readers might be interested in it, it doesn't fit within the blog. Or you might know there are things that people in general or your readers would be interested in, but maybe you're not passionate about it. So it would feel like a stretch or it wouldn't completely align with who you are. So I think that process of discovering that is so valuable because then you kind of have some of those. You have understanding of the. This is getting into details with it, but like the perimeter or the radius of the. The circle kind of the. Or the circle. What would it be? What would the mathematical term be? The circumference. Yeah, the circumference of the circle. Once you. Once you have some clarity around what that is, it gives you more confidence as to what lands where and what is okay to publish.

Yeah, absolutely.

And what a valuable thing that is. So. And we did a interview with. On the Food Blogger Pro podcast with Cooked Media, and I'm pulling up that it's episode number 132. So if you go to FoodBloggerPro.com 132, then you can check out that interview that we did with Laurie. And so glad to hear that you had a good experience with that. So continuing down the line here to hear more about some of the things that you've been working on, tell us about the app. I think that's something that a lot of people are interested in, and I really like the idea of repurposing the content that you're creating in other places. What is the app and how does that work and what was the process like in doing that?

Yeah, absolutely. So I was approached by a company called Side Chef in, I think, July of 2017, and they have a website and an app themselves. And the website has probably over 4,000 recipes. And they have, like, hundreds of chefs and bloggers who submit the recipes to this site. And they really focus on step by step cooking and kind of teaching. Teaching the readers, you know, how to cook. So that really aligned with kind of what I'm doing with my business. And they were interested as, like, a beta test to reach out to some of the publishers and say, see if we're interested to create our own, you know, app in their publishing network. And for Jason and I, we were really excited because, well, maybe more him because he's such like the tech, tech junkie. But we were just really interested in how that would work because, you know, apps are exploding, you know, like, look at Angry Birds. I mean, man, that company's making millions, you know, off of kids and adults, I'm sure. But it was more of seeing, like, okay, what's new with technology? How can we stay up on what's happening in the kitchens? I mean, we have an Alexa and a Google home, and just kitchens are becoming smart and connected and different. And, you know, people do go online to website, but mostly people are on mobile now. And it was just kind of an opportunity to get into tech space in a different way with us not having to lead the charge as much because they were offering to actually create the app so we wouldn't have to pay anything to do that, create the technology infrastructure and do all of the maintenance for the features and all we had to do was kind of, you know, give them initial designs. You know, what we wanted in our different filters in terms of do you want, like, a filter for cuisine, diet recipe type, popular ingredients, calories, or time, and then provide the recipes. So we started our launch with 100 recipes. And my caveat was I had to do voice recordings. So what I would have to do is every day, or not every day, but as often as I could try to get those 100, you know, recordings done. But for me, I like that because, you know, as you're building your brand, you know, people want to hear from you. They actually want to perhaps even hear you in their kitchen and kind of be cooking along with you and have this more connected, interactive experience while they're cooking. So I just thought that that was really neat to be able to actually connect personally with my readers in the kitchen while they're cooking. So that was a really cool feature that I really liked.

Cool, that's great. And the Side Chef is a company that, like you said, they have their own app, but I know they've also worked with a couple different bloggers. Actually some bloggers we've had on the podcast Cookie and Kate and Budget Bites as well. And it's fun to see those apps doing so well. So, you know, top is like 1 number 112 in food and Drink for Jessica Gavin app, which is awesome. And you think of, you know, however many. I forget what they say, but there's millions and millions of apps, and to know that we are connected with and know some of those people is really fun to see that in terms of do you feel like for the business and you don't have to share numbers, but I think people would be curious. Is that something for you where it's like, hey, this is awareness for our brand. Is it like a percentage of the revenue you're able to make from the blog? If so, is it like a 1%, 5%, 10%? I think people would be curious to know from a business strategy, what does it look like implementing an app and what are the not even necessarily monetary things that you get from it, but like, what do you view as the payback? Or for you guys, was it kind of this experiment to say, hey, we want to see what it's like to be in this space and to get a little feel for what it's like to take things not just online, but to use an app as well as a kind of a different medium to deliver content?

Yeah, absolutely. I think what you just said, for us, it was more Experimentation with what is, you know, up and coming in our industry. And things are changing so much. You know, if we have the opportunity to do something that's, you know, obviously you want to make sure you identify if something is a distraction or not, you know, because that could be a huge distraction. And I still can't believe we took it on at the time we did with all that was going on last year. But I thought it was just such a unique opportunity. And since they were kind of in the driver's seat, we were willing to put in, you know, the extra time if we had any allotted to do so. But it was just more being in the forefront of, you know, kitchen technology, and they have more of a partnership model for revenue. So you have your splits, but, you know, obviously, because they're doing all the development and maintenance, you have to get that kind of paid off first before you're going to see any, you know, significant revenue. And we're okay with that, you know, because everything that we made for the blog right now goes to R and D purposes and we're trying to grow, so we don't worry too much about, oh, am I. I didn't do that for the money. I did it for the experiment experience and, you know, the potential to see, you know, what could happen in the future with food. And I'm always, you know, on board with that.

And you said something good. That's actually really interesting. You talked about being really intentional to take what you are earning from the blog and putting that back into it for growth. And that's something that I've noticed with you as I've seen you at whether it's a conference or you talked about attending the Tasty Food Photography Workshop. And it's. It's a theme that I've noticed with a decent number of people that we've interviewed on the podcast, is that they're really intentional to at least take a portion of what they are earning or in the early stages, invest into what they're doing. And I'd be interested to hear you talk a little bit about that and your strategy and reasoning for that. Because I think some people would think, hey, I want to. I'm working hard and taking the time and energy. It's a ton of work to do this. I'm going to take whatever I can and spend it on something fun. But instead. And maybe this, maybe some of this stuff is fun, but instead you're saying, hey, we're gonna invest back into growth, and what does that look like for you? And can you Talk about some of the reasoning behind that.

Yeah, absolutely. I think right now I have a very fortunate setup and it is a challenge. But to be able to work full time and run, you know, a side hustle, which feels like a full time hustle for sure, is fortunate, you know, because, you know, I'm not, you know, thinking, okay, I'm living pay to check to paycheck, trying to run the blog and do this as well. It's kind of like I have what I need for stability for my family and then I have the blog that's providing resources so that we can grow it and try new things and be more risky. And over time, I am not a risky person, but being with my husband Jason, who is extremely risky. And like, no, don't worry, we're gonna buy you this camera or this lens because, you know, I really feel like if you can invest in yourself and the skills that you need to make your business better and to make, you know, hone your craft, it pays off so much in the long run. I think it's easy to say, like, okay, for example, Lindsey's course, okay, that's a couple hundred dollars. I don't know if I can afford it right now, you know, but if you think about, you know, what you've made from your blog and maybe it's stretched a little bit, think about what skills you're going to be learning and practicing and how that is going to help explode your growth with your blog versus just waiting. Like I always tell my friends who aren't sure if they want to go to a conference or go to a workshop or you know, buy something, you know, that's going to help them with their blogging, that what are you waiting for? I mean, unless it's like, I'm not saying go for broke or anything, but if it's a little bit investment, you know, I try to do a couple of those a year. I always try to go to conferences if I need to update, you know, some computer program or, you know, new lighting for my studio or a new lens, like, I'm open to investing in it because I know it's gonna make my quality better. It'll kind of, you know, refresh, you know, my passion for the business and kind of get me going. Because seriously, like, if you invest in yourself, no one can take away your skills that you're developing and you're practicing and that's really is gonna, what is gonna make your blog grow and your business grow.

Yeah, I think that's such a great takeaway and I think it's one of the things that because it's not tangible and it's kind of hard to track, the things that are easiest to track are all of the numbers which are sometimes the most distractions. Things like what is my traffic or how many social media followers do I have, or how many likes do I have. But the thing that you can't track as much is how are you as an individual developing your skills and abilities. And I think this stuff that we're talking about, the things that we're doing and the things that you're doing, it's one of the greatest ways to develop those skills and abilities. And like you said, those are things that can't be taken away. And social media can change, traffic can change. But for instance, your ability to understand a camera and take really good photos, that's going to be core to who you are. Your understanding of maybe if you like some of the more technical stuff, how to work that and interact with that, maybe you start to understand WordPress and you find that you really like that those are skills and abilities that you can't take away and to invest in that and to stay kind of on the edge of your comfort level. You talked about that with photography kind of being uncomfortable, but you're at the edge. And then your comfort level, it kind of expands out so then you're comfortable with more things. Such an important takeaway. And I feel like it's a good note to kind of end on because I want to leave people with that thought. And so that'll be the. Well, I have one more question. Keep that taste in your mouth for people, but also want to know, you've been doing this for six years now and you've learned a lot along the way. You've implemented, you've iterated, you've improved. What would your advice be to people who are maybe where you were three, four years ago and what have been the things that have been most helpful for you on your journey that you'd recommend other people implement?

Absolutely. I think the first thing that I didn't do right away was just kind of knowing your beat. You know, it's like a news reporter. You know, I knew that for me, you know, culinary science was what made me unique, but I didn't take advantage of it and I didn't create a business strategy or growth strategy around that. You know, I just decided to just continue to post recipes, but not without intention. It was just more like just to get content up. And I think that's totally okay to experiment in the beginning. But if you want to treat this like a business and really build your brand, you need to know what you know you're passionate about, what separates you from others. And if you match it and exceed it with effort, then that's the right, like you're on the right track, you know, to start off. So just kind of maybe really thinking of a business plan. The cookbook for me actually. And I felt like kind of better late than never. But the cookbook allowed me to sit down every day, pretty much feeling like going back to my master's and creating, you know, my thesis again. But, you know, you know, what is my strategy? What is my game plan? And I realized it needs to be about cooking techniques and then building off from there, you know, and being that educator and that, you know, trusted source and answer girl essentially for, you know, home cooks. And so that refined my beat and that refined my purpose and it just has made me feel so much more connected to what I want to do in the future.

Yeah, that, that's. You were going to say. I'll let you finish that thought.

I ended that thought. I was going to tell you other stuff, but go ahead if you want.

Okay. Well, I just think the idea of when you've said that a couple times, what, what's your beat? And the. I follow a lot of tech podcasts and they always say, you know, they'll maybe talk about things in general, but they say what's your beat? And it's usually things like a really specific subset of text like AI or you know, self driving cars or like it's a very specific subset. And I think the true is same for our niche where there's food, there's recipes, but it's like, what's your beat? What is the thing? And it's such an important takeaway and so just want to call that out. It's a really good point.

Absolutely. Another thing that we had just touched upon was not being afraid to invest in yourself. Like you are your most valuable asset and you have to be willing to spend money to make money and you know, even building a strong team like we had talked about. How do I balance it all? Well, realize I can't do everything. So I've definitely hired a va, you know, to handle Facebook scheduling and I've hired out amazing food videographers who are also bloggers and I'm supporting, you know, their business, but they're also helping grow mine. Being able to have video available, you know, on my site to further help help others, but also going to those conferences. And actually, networking and meeting people has been so huge for my growth, just because when we first started, you know, social media wasn't huge. It was truly about connecting with your friends. And then it started being used as a tool for businesses. And I realized, actually when I went to Lindsey's workshop and seeing the other girls interact and talk and like, oh, we're in these groups together, I was like, oh, my gosh, I don't know anybody. I have no one to share with, or, you don't know me. And one huge thing I've realized just in life, it's like, it's not about who you know, it's about who knows you. Right? So that's what social media is for. That's what's networking and creating, like, real lasting friendships. But, you know, I remember getting a book from Jason when I was first starting about, we'll write From Food from Diane Jacobs and Plate to Pexel from Helen de Hardin. And I got to meet them at EFC this year, and I ended up inviting Diane to my cookbook lunch party. And it was, oh, my gosh, like, they are like, such, like, these goddesses in our industry. And, you know, just being there and seeing them face to face and talking to them, it was. It's kind of, you know, like, totally fangirling. But if I wasn't there, you know, I just would have never been able to network. And if I was thinking about my next cookbook, I would love to talk to Diane and work with her on a cookbook proposal. You know, things like that. So just little investments like networking and getting out there and going to the conference and meeting the people that you see online and talking to them really makes a difference. And then going to the workshops or, you know, getting on Food Blogger Pro and being up on the forums and having a community to support you, you know, even though it's like, okay, a monthly investment, it's like, so much more, you know, than just what that dollar is worth is, you know, having to build your business and having people support you.

Yeah, that's awesome. And it's been so fun to see you do that through the years and to be connected as you guys are on that journey. So fun to have this. Be this podcast interview, be a step along that journey as well. So thanks so much for coming on, Jessica. It was so good to talk to you. For those that want to follow along with you, connect with you, where can they find you online?

Absolutely. My culinary science website is just my name, www.jessicagavin.com and all of my, you know, social is the same so it'll be easy to find.

Awesome. And we'll link to it in the show notes as well. Jessica, so great to connect and thanks for being on the podcast.

Thank you so much Bjork.

And that is that my friends, Jessica has such a cool background and story and we hope you enjoyed this interview. But before we wrap up today, it's time for our Food Blogger Pro Podcast Reviewer of the Week. And this one comes from Kadams and I hope I'm pronouncing that right. This review says this is a must for any blogger, foodie or not. I'm a DIY blogger and get so much helpful information from these podcasts. I always walk away feeling inspired and with a to do list up your blogging game and Bjork can help. Episode 38 is Amazing by the way, so if you go to foodbloggerpro.com 38 you'll actually find the episode that Cadams was talking about. This is actually a Bjork solo sode and it's about seven trappings Traffic Tips for Bloggers, which is always a good topic to learn more about in my opinion. So thanks for tuning in this week friends. We are incredibly grateful that you have decided to tune in and make the Food Blogger Pro podcast a part of your day today. So from all of us here at fbphq, make it a great week.

Sam.