185: Darkness and Light: A Photographer’s Journey from Addiction to Success with Joanie Simon

In this episode I chat about a Pinch of Yum case study and then Bjork interviews the fabulous Joni Simon about flash photography and her journey to blogging. Hey, hey lovely listener. You are listening to the Food Blogger Pro podcast. Thanks for tuning in to this episode with Joni Simon. But before we get to the interview, we'd like to pause right here and thank our sponsors. Wbc WP Tasty WP Tasty makes three of the plugins that we use we rely on to run Pinch of Yum Tasty recipes, a recipe plugin, TastyPins, a Pinterest optimization plugin, and then Tasty Links a keyword auto linking plugin. The WP Tasty team that is Raquel, Daniel and Ann are committed to elevating your food blog with rock solid, helpful plugins. And for today's tasty tip, I would like to chat to you about Pinterest. Now, we talk about Pinterest quite a bit on the Food Blogger Pro podcast and there's actually a really good reason why It's Pinch of Yum's number two source of traffic. And actually, if you look at almost any food blog, you'll see that Pinterest is one of the top sources of traffic. And that's because food and recipe searches is one of Pinterest's most popular categories. So we know that promoting content on Pinterest poses a huge opportunity for food bloggers. But how do you actually know the best ways to get that content in front of the people who want it? Well, that's why we are so excited about the Pinch of Yum Pinterest Marketing Case study. It's a collaboration between pinch of Yum, WPTasty and Simplepin Media, a Pinterest marketing company. During the study, we hope to learn the answer to one simple question. What actually works when it comes to Pinterest marketing? There are so many strategies, tips and how to's out there, but we hope to dig even deeper and uncover the current Pinterest marketing best practices, the ROI on Pinterest Marketing, how to use Pinterest to meet your goals, and more. This study will continue for anywhere from six months to one year and you'll get all of the data that we are collecting on Pinch of Yum's Pinterest account and you can check out the kickoff blog post@wptasty.com Pinterest study. And now the interview. I have to say, the entire Food Blogger Pro team is super excited about this interview. The ball started rolling whenever I was actually in a meeting with our Video expert Emily. And then she mentioned that she was taking this incredible flash photography course by someone named Joni Simon. My interest was immediately piqued. We typically talk about the benefits of shooting food photos with natural light. Namely, it's an easy way to make sure that your photos look natural. But if you take a quick peek over at Joni's Instagram profile, he bite shot, you'll see that she's getting beautiful, stunning, natural looking photos by using flash. But that's not the only reason why we love this episode. Joni's journey to food, blogging and photography wasn't an easy one. And you'll hear about her road to recovery and her story of how she got to where she is today. If you couldn't tell, I am totally fangirling over Joni and her photography skills and I really think you're going to love this episode. So without any further ado, Bjork, take it away.

Joni, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you so much, Bjork. It's my pleasure.

Yeah, so when we do these podcasts, we sometimes will reach out to people. We'll say, hey, who would you be interested in hearing from on the podcast? We have an internal list of people we want to connect with. And you hit both of those things. We heard from people that said, hey, we'd love to hear from Joan. And internally, our team recommended it as well. So you hit both of those checkboxes and excited to talk to you today about your story. And then also a really specific niche of photography, food photography, and that's using flash with food photography. But before we get there, I want to rewind the tape a little bit and go back to the point where you started to get interested in photography and actually watched a video on your YouTube channel where you're kind of talking about this transition point in your life and actually how kind of the creative avenue that you went down with photography and with food kind of came out of an exit of another stage of your life and kind of, you called it your road to recovery. So can you take us back to that point and talk through what was going on in your life at that point? And you know, how photography and food and recipes played a role in that transition, for sure.

Yeah. I mean, I think that any of us in the food blogosphere so many times, you know, you kind of look at your own personal history and go, I could have never put all of these things together, but how beautiful and wonderful it is that these things all fit together. So it was end of 2014, I actually had a podcast and it was interviewing local restaurants and it kind of went part and parcel with what I was doing in my day job selling restaurant point of sale systems. So kind of a technology thing, but working with food people, which has always been important to me. But I also just was getting into Instagram and sharing content online and really started to realize though as much as I love sharing other people's stories, I really wanted to share more of myself and more of my recipes. And right around that time too had some pretty massive things happening in my life. Just God intervening in the process of my journey and helping me realize that I was an alcoholic. And fortunately, I've been amazingly supportive. Family and husband who helped me through that process, got a great therapist and through that realized, you know, I am a very creative person and I need my day to day to be a creative thing. I quit that full time day job and I was the full time breadwinner for our family of four. And so I have two little guys at home and it was a scary thing. And I kind of look back and say there was no other way that that could have happened outside of divine inspiration. Because for me, I can be a very fearful and adverse to risk taking. But yeah, I quit that day job and said, I'm just going to start cooking. I'm going to start doing food blogging@joniesimon.com you know, went to. I even at the time was following your income reports for a pinch of yum. And you know, kind of by what I was seeing other food bloggers and I was like, I don't know if I could necessarily, you know, make that happen, but I'm sure that something good will come of all this. And I just had this intense sense that that's where I needed to go. So photography, of course, being a part of the food blogging experience and with my background in art, I've got an undergraduate degree in art history, it just captivated me and I started digging deeper into the camera. So as much as I love the food and the cooking, it was the photography that really inspired me and really started to focus more of my attention. I'm like, I don't care about writing about all this food stuff. Like, I just want to take pictures of it and delve deeper into that. And then also because my connections in the restaurant industry, other restaurateurs started to see my work and said, hey, can you come take pictures for our menu and for our social media? And so that kind of dovetailed into that. And then along with the blogging side of things had started to make connections then with various food brands, who then also needed their own digital content, social media content, and photography. And so that's now the bulk of the work that I do in terms of client work is working with food brands to create images, but still doing a good bit of restaurant work as well. But, yeah, it very quickly turned into a photography business. Much more so than a blog.

Yeah. So one of the things that I think is so inspiring about your story is, you know, this transition that you had. And for those that are listening to the podcast, I would assume that there's a. A subsection of people that would maybe have a similar story or, you know, as you call it, road to recovery. What would. It's not related to photography. It's not related to, you know, business necessarily. But I think it's an important thing to talk about when it does come up. And I know there's somebody listening to this that's going to be able to be impacted by your story. That section of your story. What were the things that you learned about yourself in that process, and what would your advice be to somebody who has a similar story, who's maybe struggling with alcohol and says, this is a change that I want to make? What would your advice be to them, you know, as you reflect on your own story?

Yeah, I mean, I think that what was so important was finally just coming clean about so much. You know, I think me in terms of my personality. I'm an A type personality, first born, like, you know, I couldn't be more a classic case. Hard worker, very driven. And so everything looked perfect on the outside and looked so shiny. You know, you look at my Facebook and all these things and, oh, Joanie's just got it all together. And so it was a lot of secrecy and a lot of things behind the scenes that nobody other than, you know, my poor, sweet, patient husband was aware of. You know, and so when I came out and shared publicly, because I don't think that everybody who is an alcoholic or struggles with addiction should necessarily be, you know, so public about it. I don't. I think that's a personal decision, but for me, I just felt really compelled that this was an important story to tell because I knew that that would also be healing to me to be able to also be very accountable very publicly. And so when I shared that, it was in a blog post on joniesimon.com and it was actually July 4, 2015. So it was like Independence Day. This is me declaring my independence. And Just shared like, this is all out on the table. Here's what I've struggled with. Here's what I'm going through. Here's where I'm at now. Here's how long I've been sober. And I mean, people were literally shocked. Like, best friends were hurt because they felt that, like, how do we not know that this was going on? But I think so many times we can do such a great job of putting up this front of perfect. In reality, everybody's got something. And so whatever that thing is, I think for me, it was finally coming clean about it. And what precisely shifted, I still continue to kind of go back to what was that magic moment. But it really was just really being surrounded by a lot of love and not feeling judged, but then also doing it specifically for myself. I didn't get sober for my kids, although certainly they're going to be in a much better place in the long term because they don't have an alcoholic mother or not actively alcoholic. And, you know, it's. I had to do it for myself. So I think that, you know, it's one of those things that you can deny for a long time, but certainly when that sort of shoe drops and you realize, you know what? I don't want to hide anymore. And I think that that's been such a key then, to the success of my business, is that I have. I have nothing to hide. And so what you see is what you get. And it's very transparent, and it. And it makes my life, honestly, so much easier. And people say, how do you get so much done in a day? And I go, oh, man, I'm not drinking. Let me tell you how many great hours and high function I have now. It's amazing.

Well, incredibly courageous and incredibly impactful in probably more than you would ever know in terms of. That's the strange thing about the Internet, is whether it's a podcast or a blog post, you know, you talk about it, you put it out there, and people absorb that and respond to it. And when it's such a positive thing, I think it's impactful even just to hear somebody else's story in their process and moving through something. So in the video, you talk about how. The leaving of one thing kind of coincided with the creation of another thing. And that sounded like that creation was kind of this part of you that was probably always there, but now is allowed to blossom in a different way around photography and creativity and food. So did you find kind of a direct correlation with that, or was that always There and kind of dormant, or what did that look like as you started to really lean into some of these things that are now such a big part of who you are and what you're about?

Yeah, I think that they were always there. You know, I've had some sort of creative outlet since I was itty bitty kid, so those things were always there. Now, was it directly a camera? Not specifically. Although I was having a conversation with my husband last night, actually, about, you know, he said, if you'd asked me 10 years ago if Joanie was gonna be a photographer, I would have said no. She's got no interest in cameras. But I said yes. But I've always been interested in creating art. But the patience aspect of me is not patient enough to wait for an entire painting or something that's gonna take more time. So photographs are so immediate in terms of that creative process. But, yeah, I think that. But what was very important, too, for me in making that break, I left my job. And that was the last day of the job was April 30, 2015. And so then I gave myself an entire month that was kind of a part of my process with my therapist. She said, okay, you need to give yourself some space to kind of heal. And you are kind of one of these highly driven people that just needs something going on all the time. So you really need to discipline yourself to do absolutely nothing. Which a lot of us would say, oh, that sounds amazing. Months of doing nothing. But it was one of the most impossible things ever and drove me up a wall because I just like, how do I sit still and not do something productive? So that may play is what we called it. And we went to San Diego. We did things that we wouldn't do otherwise financially. We just refinanced our house. So that kind of helped us financially float through that time as my husband ramped back up into his. His real estate business, which he had left to take care of the kids. So, you know, it was just. It was a lot of different things. But I think that that period of rest was so important for that creative part of you, because you can't be creative when you're, you know, just running 500 miles an hour and can't see straight. That creativity is a very nuanced thing. So it's still something that I forget. And when I'm running on, you know, more cylinders than I have, and I go, this is. Is clearly going to have a negative impact on my work, on my business, on the value I'm delivering to people, and so as much as we want to happen, like, everything to happen, all right now, it's just. It's that taking of time. And I really. That was an important part of the learning process for me and also helpful then for the recovery aspect too. So it was kind of beneficial to both sides of the equation.

Yeah, I think people are interested in that, in that period of time where it is the recreation process. So it's, you know, for you, it's also like leaving this job that you. That you had and knowing that you wanted to go into something maybe that you had a little bit more control over. Maybe it was a little bit more creative and kind of taking this in between period, where I think a lot of people and a lot of motivated people and a lot of the people that listen to this podcast are motivated people would say, hey, I'm gonna leave my job, and then I'm gonna get home at 5pm on that Friday and start working. Because that feels like what you should do. So in that, in between period, what are the things that you feel like you learned about the path ahead as you were starting this new venture?

You know, I think it was a reacquaintance with myself and just who I am and what I value and what's important. I really was very intentional about not working on anything. And you kind of have to sit with things and sit with that uncertainty. I think that we like a guarantee. So much to know, like, okay, I can start making this happen right now, and this is within my power. And I think that some of those breakthrough moments, you can't plan those to happen. You can't force those to happen. And you need to sort of have that openness for it to arrive now. You know, you're like, how do I create space for that? And you can get so anxious in that process. And that's again, why that whole month of May was so anxiety producing. But then when I gave myself that full time, then as of June 1, knowing that then I wanted to launch my blog on July 1st, it gave me like, then a month where I was probably more productive than I've been. Long, long time, because I really had saved up, I'd given myself permission to rest, and that this was. I was doing this for me. And who cares what anybody else thinks? And, you know, and that, I think, is also a big part of it, just because I have always been, and I continue to try to work on this, but very cognizant about what other people think of me, you know, and so that can also very much get in the way of that. That creative process.

Yeah. So coming out of that month, what was the first thing that you did? So you maybe had some dominoes that you, like, had lined up mentally, even though you weren't technically working. I would imagine that that period does involve some, like, stacking of dominoes that you weren't going to tip yet, but, like, your finger was ready to tap it right when you got back that. That first day to start moving forward. So, yeah. In kind of queuing those things up, what did you decide? Hey, these are the next steps that I'm going to take in order to kind of move forward on crafting this dream career.

Yeah. So I didn't totally know what it looked like, but what I did know was that it involved a blog, and I'd had other blogs as a part of the restaurant podcast and, you know, just other, like, miscellaneous WordPress sites throughout the years. And so I knew I wanted a recipe blog. So first thing you got to do when you want a recipe blog is go to foodbloggerpro.com and you get yourself a membership. Yeah.

Okay. Thank you. For sure.

So I did that, and I went through all the things and figured out, you know, unfortunately, I had a familiarity with WordPress, but, yeah, I took the time for the education part of it, just in terms of constructing the back end and building out the site. I did go, and I'd had a contact from prior years to get a logo together, which is great.

I have it pulled up here on my other screen. What is the story behind it?

The chicken one?

Yeah.

So I have a tattoo on my arm that I got. When did I get it? Okay, so let me do all the timeline. So a part of my recovery process with my therapist, she shared with me an important story because once I'd really started moving forward in my recovery and sobriety, I thought it was really important because family of origin is such an important aspect of the recovery and addiction recovery process. And so I brought my dad in with me to therapy, which was terrifying. I mean, this man who thinks he's got this wonderful, perfect daughter who could do no wrong. And there I am in a therapist's office telling him I'm an alcoholic. And I did. And. And the therapist looks at me. She's like, joni, you're clearly, like, very shaken, having told him that, like, what's going on for you right now? And I just said, you know, now I feel worried because my dad's going to be worried about me. And is Joni out doing something What's Joni doing? And that I, like, I have now created a burden for him that. That's going to be occupying his mind, because now I've burdened him with this issue in my life. And she said, joanie, I got to stop you right there. Like, that is not your control. Like, that is his thing. It's just like in life, you've got your yard and your neighbor's yard, your dad's yard, right? And in your yard, you've got everything going on, and your dad's got, like, this chicken in your. In his yard, and it's kicking up dust and crap and making a mess. And so you either acknowledge the chicken and let it be and know that that's his thing, or you, you know, or you open up your gate, and then all of a sudden that crap is in your yard and you're dealing with it, too. So it's just the idea of, you know, if you can't control other people, you can't control their thoughts and emotions, that's on them. And so if they're got a flapping chicken, then you just acknowledge it, and you can be loving and supportive, but ultimately not let it impact your yard because really, you're only responsible for yourself. And that was such, like, that was one of those aha moments through the therapy process. I said, okay, this makes sense. I do not have to control the world.

Thank you.

Goodness, it's a lot of work. And so then the chicken just became, like, a really important symbol to me. And so went to a local tattoo artist, and she put the chicken that's now on my shoulder. And then my husband, who does, like, digital renderings, things like that, he kind of took that and turned it into then the chicken that's in the logo. And then I took that to my branding gal and said, okay, I've got this chicken. Can you make the rest of it look good? And here's my vision for colors. And so, yeah. Which then eventually turned into other content. But, yeah, it's. The chicken is very important. So every so often, you know, in social media, if you see a chicken floating around in the comments, you'll know what that's all about.

It reminds me a lot, actually, of Stephen Covey wrote 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. I think it's in that book that he talks about this idea of circle of concern and circle of influence. And the idea being that you never want. I think this is what it is, but related in that you don't want the circle of concern to ever get bigger. Than the circle of influence idea, being that, like, everything that you're concerned about as much as possible, keep that within the boundary of the things that you can actually influence. And once it gets outside of that, suddenly you have these things that you're so concerned about that are outside of your circle of influence. And that's such a hard burden to carry because you can influence it. There's nothing that you can do to impact that. And that's been such a powerful concept for me is, you know, in lots of different scenarios. And it sounds like kind of a similar idea. I feel like the idea of a chicken is much more enjoyable to think about. We'll roll with that one. And so you go through this process, obviously it's this big deal where you're having this conversation and opening that up to having that conversation with your dad. What do you feel like from that, like the connection point with that? What was it from that that that then allowed you to do and move into. And move towards.

Yeah, you know, I feel like it was in part of it and, you know, I think this is different for everybody. But again, being such a high achiever kind of personality, your parents, especially if you've got great, amazing parents like I do, you know, you want. You want to make them happy and you want to make them proud. And so. But then also sometimes you kind of lose that process of growing up and becoming your own adult, if that makes sense. And so it was sort of this major shift then, even though, I mean, I was how old at the time, like 32. However old I was, you're like, why is a 32 year old woman still being parented, you know, and concerned about what her parents think? But, you know, I think that it was such an important distinction to really then qualify for us. Like, no, Joni, you are your own person. Your parents are their own people. And that this new music, mutual respect grew and that there was a closeness there that we hadn't had previously, which healed just so much of me. And again, it wasn't that anybody had done anything wrong, but it's just the pure fact of we're human beings and we're flawed. And so being able to then grow with my parents through that process and really then identify myself as, you know, this is for me and what I'm doing is for me. And I'm not going to apologize to anybody and I'm not going to feel indebted to anybody. Guilt is out the door. And I think that by removing those negative feelings and those things that had so operated 247 in my DNA, that then that creativity was just given a real opportunity to flourish in ways that I hadn't before. And so I think if you're pursuing any sort of creative endeavor, and whether that's, I mean, creative in the artistic means or creative in any sort of way, I mean, I think all humans are created, are creative people. And so if you really want to tap into that, I think you do have to spend the time and go through the painful. It's not fun, it's painful, it's awful. I wouldn't wish it on anybody. But at the same time, it's like the most powerful thing and important thing you can do as an artist and a creative person to let go of those things. And you can't generally do that without facing some pretty nasty stuff.

Yeah, that's so inspiring. And the reality of. Of work that we see as kind of like, you know, sitting at the computer or doing a photo shoot or things that seem relatively siloed are actually so personal. And the fact that you need to be right with yourself in order to be fully present to the thing that you want to be doing, creating, writing, photography, whatever it is, and how those are so intertwined and. And the introspection that that requires. It's one of the common themes that we hear on the podcast is people talking about that. Like, it's not just tips and tactics and, you know, ways that you tweak something and then you find success. So much of it has to do with finding yourself in the process as well.

Yeah.

So along the way, you're kind of doing both of these things side by side. You're going through this process of kind of centering yourself and, you know, aligning this new version of who you are, along with building out what is kind of this business that you're creating. And along the way, I would assume that part of it is kind of putting things out there and seeing what sticks, both from getting traction with the thing, but also with you personally. Like, what are the things that I like to do? Do? I like writing as much as I like photography and kind of feeling that out. So can you talk about, as you started to get into it, what you learned about yourself and kind of the small changes and pivots that you made along the way?

Yeah, you know, I think that the photography was important throughout the whole. I mean, from kind of the beginning, that's where I found the most excitement. Now sometimes it's so hard to be, like, cognizant of yourself and what you're doing and what you're enjoying. But it was definitely those moments where I was fearful to do something that something great was on the other side of it. And I think about like publishing, especially when you're first starting a food blog or any sort of digital content, like you second guess the publishing of it a lot of times, which I still continue to do, I get nervous anytime I publish a video. Like, somebody's gonna ate this, right? And so some of the early work that I had done, and I don't entirely know where I got inspired to do this, but I just thought, well, if I want to get the attention of potential food brands for the work that I'm doing, I should include those brands and pictures that I'm publishing. And so I did some of that and turned around. Like for example, there was this parfait recipe which I thought, this is not even a recipe, this is just pound cake with pudding and whipped cream and some sprinkles on top. I'm not going to be taken seriously. But it had really pretty pictures. And I was like, I want to show these pictures. So I published the recipe and then I sent it through Facebook messenger over to Sara Lee Pound Cake because it was Sarah Lee Pound Cake. And I said, hey, I've loved your product for many years and here's this recipe with these pictures on my blog and I'll kind of left it at that. Well, turned around a couple weeks later. Their PR agency also handles a portion of Tyson Foods and their corndog division, which is completely random and very relevant though to the strange experience of being a food blogger. And you're like, is this my life right now? Am I talking to somebody who specializes and corn dogs, okay? And it turned into my first brand photography contract. When I look back, I'm like, oh, how much I didn't know about photography then. I wish I could redo those shots. But a very important stepping stone to then the process of seeing, you know what. There's a lot of value in what I do specifically in this photography aspect. Like I don't know if I can figure out. I mean I'm sure I could if I sat long enough and figured out SEO and all of that stuff. But to me that just seemed like the most like the connection was just made very instantly for me if I saw that there was a way to monetize this and do what I loved and continue to pursue that. And there's a lot of second guessing along the way of, well, I'm not really a photographer and I'm not qualified to do this. And I'm just this, you know, mom who's running a food blog. Like, who am I? And so there's like so much of that, especially, I think, when you're working from home by yourself and you just, just, oh, it's impossible not to second guess everything. So fortunately, I think that what was important throughout the whole process and what I really continued to learn is anytime that I'm doing something that I think just like that Sara Lee pound cake recipe, like, this is not good enough to publish, this is not going to make any difference. That might be a great opportunity, that might be something. And so, like, let's not squash that. So anytime I second guess myself, I just remind myself, like, there could be something really great on the other end of this. There could not be. But what's the worst that could happen? Somebody says, that's not a recipe, and then, okay, go on to the next thing.

I think in so many ways we are our own worst critics. And I think when you, when we've talked to creators, you know, time and time again, that's something that we hear is that especially when you're creating something on your own and putting it out into the world, it's so easy to feel that and yet so important just to press, publish on that. So you're kind of learning like, hey, this is actually something that I'm interested in working on with brands. In this case, they say, hey, we would love for you to help us with some photography at this point. If you were to look at kind of a snapshot of your business food photography blog, you have some courses which we're going to talk about in a little bit. Percentage wise, what does that look like? Are you working with brands 60% of the time and then dedicating 40% of your time to some of the courses you have. If you were to kind of break that out in terms of what, a typical day or week or month. Month. Not that there are those, but if you had to say what that looks like, percentage wise, where would your time be spent?

So as far as today, you're saying, yeah, yeah. So currently the majority of my energy actually goes into my YouTube channel. The bite shot. It takes up. Oh, goodness. Probably at least in terms of hours, anywhere from 8 to 15 hours a week is tied up in YouTube video creation, production, creating food photography education. Because I know that so much of now who I am and all the great things that I get to enjoy was because of what I've learned and what I know about food photography and I know that there are other people who have that creative need and to be able to create some very specifically tailored content is exciting to me and to help shorten that learning curve because I'm like, oh man, you know, if it hadn't taken me so many years to learn these things and make all the mistakes first, I would love to shorten that. So YouTube takes up the majority of it. And then I would say right behind that then is photography for brands and for various clients. At this point I've got sort of a set list and very fortunate again, I think, over years and time and honing in what your business is. I've got a set list of clients who I just kind of on a quarterly basis, we're creating new content for them, new marketing materials, things like that. So I'm going to be shooting some oatmeal later this afternoon, do that on a kind of every three month basis and then also shooting for local rest. But I've got two little guys, so it's nice to be able to work out of the home most often.

Yeah. And so for those that aren't familiar, the bite shot, it's kind of an umbrella over the content that you're producing for photographers and specifically food photography. And there's also some courses underneath that. One of the things that we heard from people that had reached out was this interest in talking about flash photography. And that's something that I think for so many people, you know, we think first and foremost, I would assume people are like, well, we think about natural lighting and then, you know, the next thing that we think about is artificial lighting. But there's kind of this interesting category underneath that, which is flash photography. So can you talk about why flash photography is important and why you said, hey, this is so important that I'm going to create a course around this because I want to, I want to teach people about this. It seems like kind of this like secret category of.

The super top secret world. Yeah. Because I think that in food photography especially, you know, that natural light is treated like king. Right. And that we're all running around at very specific hours to make sure we're capturing the light just the way we want it in the right window. So I'm just too much of a control freak for that. And so I knew that I needed artificial light. But. But that distinction between continuous light sources and flash is that with flash the way that it works, you just have a greater degree of control over especially your ambient lighting. So for me, for example, I live in Arizona, the Valley of the sun is always sunny here, but the sun is almost too intense to a degree. It's very hard to kind of wrangle and make it look. Look soft and appealing in the way that I visually want to express my food photography. And so flash, you have the ability to manipulate it through the things like softboxes and various other tools like that. But it's complicated subject, so that's why there's a whole course dedicated to it. But the idea that flash behaves in a way that is outside of your ambient light. So that if I'm shooting. For example, I was at a restaurant yesterday, and restaurants are notorious for terrible orangey overhead lights, which just are not flattering to food. And so. But I need to make some images for a magazine spread. So what do we do? Well, fortunately, I've got flash, so I can shoot under these orangey lights and be able to cancel that out by utilizing a faster shutter speed. So, like, at 1-200th of a second, if you were to take a shot of anything, you may not be able to see that if you're taking that image indoors, it would just be a black image. But flash is independent from our shutter speed, which is the big secret magic trick to why flash photography is so absolutely wonderful. For control, so that I can create my own lighting. I can cancel out any sort of nasty orange lights, or if I'm out on a patio that's too bright and I need to control the sun, I can do that with the camera settings and utilizing flash. So it really simplifies the lighting scenario. Because a lot of times, especially too, when we're working with a continuous artificial light source, part of the issues that I was running into, you know, because I went out, like, everybody went out and got the Lowell Ego lights, and then I got some other LED lights, and then I got these other lights. But, like, the images to me, just still looked flat, and they kind of looked muddy, and they didn't have this vibrant pop and the sharpness that I wanted. I was like, maybe it's my lens and maybe it's my camera. You know, you go and you buy all these things. And so then eventually, a photographer friend of mine said, you know, joanie, just try flash. Like, you might be surprised. And of course, I went into it kicking and screaming because I'm like, I have to learn how to do this. This is different. This is not the way that I know how to shoot. And seems so complicated, but, you know, went out and bought all of $120 worth of flash equipment. And suddenly I'm like, oh my gosh, these are the images that I had in my mind. This is the. Because it just simplifies the lighting in the sense that we're no longer dealing with problematic ambient light or, you know, difficult lighting scenarios that we're really, we're creating very pure and simple light in that sense. And what's nice for food photography is that, you know, from an aesthetic perspective, we're trying to replicate the look of just a window, right? Like a window in a kitchen, a single window. So we're mostly only dealing with a single light source too. So it's not like when you imagine these elaborate, you know, lighting setups that you think of like on commercial sets. That's not the kind of images that we're creating. And so it's really, it's quite simple, but there's just a lot of education there. And so I really want to simplify that and deliver that in a high quality manner. And so I knew I couldn't do it in a 20 minute YouTube video and do flash photography justice. So that's why I created an in depth online course that at the same time is short enough that, you know, most people binge it in the course of a Saturday afternoon, and then by Sunday they're like, oh my gosh, why did I not know this was there? And I just get so excited right along with them because I'm like, I know, right?

So that's really interesting. So, so. And it makes a lot of sense when you think of especially shooting indoors. And we have these, you know, we're Minnesota, so kind of the opposite of Arizona. We have these gray, short days, which then forces you to think about, okay, if I, if I can't access natural light in that same way, what does that look like? A lot of times people think artificial light, not necessarily flash right away. But what you're saying is even with artificial light, a lot of times you're still, still dealing with the other light around you. Especially if you're doing a restaurant shoot, for instance. And one of the things that I thought was so interesting you said is the idea of flash kind of canceling out that other light. Can you explain that concept a little bit, how that works in that flash is able to kind of deal with that ambient light in a way that just artificial light wouldn't be able to.

Yeah, so. So when you think about a flash, I mean, when you use the flash on your camera, right, the one that's built in, that flash happens in an instant, like it's so fast. Right. And so that light, we think about the way that a camera captures light when the shutter is opening, you know, it's the two curtains kind of dropping across the sensor and it's creating that opening which is allowing for, of course, the exposure of the image, but is also allowing a certain amount of light in. So if we have a slower shutter speed, you know, like 1/30 of a second or even one second, that that's letting a lot more light in to the camera. Whereas if you're at a faster shutter speed, you know, that little opening is very small and kind of zips right past the sensor, but exposes the image. Well, even at a fast shutter speed, it's not faster than the flash. The flash is happening faster than that shutter is opening and closing, if that makes sense.

Sense.

So the shutter, which we're used to being something that controls our exposure, is no longer in charge of the entire exposure. It's only in charge of that ambient exposure. So we can dial in a faster shutter speed, kill the ambient exposure, and rely just on the flash to capture to create that lighting. Because that flash, it's not being regulated by the shutter speed. So it's really. You're dealing now with two different exposures. And I've got some. It's one of those kind of mind bending, like, whoa. And for me too, as somebody who's not necessarily like science and technology, like in terms of math and physics and things, I go, oh, it's hurting my brain. So for those people who are maybe listening to this right now, she is talking a different language. This makes no sense. The course has some very tangible visual examples of how you can just see by manipulating your shutter speed in conjunction with the flash, how that greatly impacts your image and simplifies that lighting situation. And once you get through that, then the flash world opens up to you.

That's awesome. I know that people are going to be thinking this because this is a question we often get whenever we talk about this type of stuff, but it's the gear question. I know that people are going to say, hey, that's awesome. How do I take the first few steps? Obviously, like you said, you know, especially in a podcast, it's hard to explain this.

Yes, I want to just show them. Right?

Yes. Right. But if you were to say to somebody, hey, here's what you need to just take the first few steps if you want to start, you know, experimenting with flash for your food, what are the pieces that they're going to need? And maybe you can talk about the entry level things and then what you use as well. Because I'm guessing like the camera you use isn't maybe the entry level camera that somebody would buy if they're first starting out.

Right, right. So as far as like where you need to start and I have happy to send you a link to it, it's just free website, just the link with just kind of the parts and pieces because that is definitely like the overwhelming part of it. How do I decide between all these lights? So where I generally recommend people start out because, you know, you may not fall in love with flash quite to the degree that I personally have, but it's still, I think, such a very valuable tool to have. And so just starting out, I say start inexpensive. You know, don't, you don't need to go spend an arm and a leg on this. So you can get an inexpensive speedlight. Speedlights you folks might have seen before, like a wedding photographer has that little, you know, light that's attached to the top of the camera into the hot shoe. It's just that little kind of piece that's a speed light. So you can get a speed light and then a trigger. Because, you know, as food photographers, we don't want the light coming from the camera, we want it coming from another direction, whether that's the light coming from the side or the light coming in from behind. So having some sort of trigger then to communicate with the flash to go off remotely. And so you get the flash, you get the trigger and then some sort of stand and bracket to position that flash on so that we can, you know, have our setup on the table and have our camera where we're going to shoot it and then be able to position that light wherever we want the light entering in the scene from. So yeah, so pretty much like the basics, it's just the speed light, a trigger, a bracket and a light stand. And then as you kind of experiment with it and get used to it, then you're going to want to add something like a soft box or some other kind of modifier. Modifier being sort of the general term for anything that's going to manipulate and change that light. Because if you just throw the light from the flash, it's going to be. It's going to look really hard and harsh and you're going to have those really intense lines that you think of when you usually fire a flash from your camera. You go, that is not flattering. And so going into the entire world of softboxes and modifiers. But some of that is particular to your specific taste. Right. Because some people do like that sort of of bon appetit look right where they're going for the harder, more intense shadows as opposed to people who want the super light and airy and ethereal. And so part of that is then the education as far as what's really the difference between the modifiers? How do we manipulate the light in the way that we want it? And I make sure to address all of that because my intent with education always, no matter what format it's in, is to make sure that I'm not just making people who are making images like I make. Granted, we all make our own unique images, but I want to put the tools in people's hands so that they can create then the images they have in their mind. Because I just, I love to see the variety and the creativity and the difference of, you know, the dark and moody and the light and airy. And so, yeah, those are kind of the basic tools now as far as people who really get into it, then they go, oh, okay, well, now I see that I want something maybe more powerful because, you know, I'm shooting really large setups or I, you know, shooting for eight hours a day, which I, you know, sometimes will do. And so you want something that's going to be a little more heavy duty. And so then you start looking at things like studio strobes, which also kind of sounds a little overwhelming and crazy, but like I utilize a mono light. So it's really great device that stands in the same position that you would put the speedlight. But it's got an ability to. It's got like a battery pack. And so it can last for an entire 8 to 10 hour shoot. Very powerful. Like if I'm gonna do a whole overhead of a whole table, I can light larger spaces with that. If I'm doing a kitchen shoot with a chef. Affords a lot of flexibility. And it's also got a fast recycle time. So we talk about like when that flash fires, takes a lot of power for a unit to fire that intense of a burst of light. And so with this more advanced studio strobes, you've got something that can fire the flash more quickly between. So if you're doing, you know, those like high action shots like we see people do with the splashes and crashes, like they're throwing milk across a room or they're, you know, throwing wine glasses together, that you've got something that can pop off a lot of shots simultaneously, like one right after Another whereas you're going to run into limitations, of course, with less expensive gear. But yeah, my recommendation to anybody just starting out who's like, I want to dip my toe in the pool and see how this looks. For less than $200, you can get the light and kind of all those basic starter things.

And it's interesting, even I think that that idea of taking the light that you traditionally mount on top of the dslr, taking that off and, and then putting it on a separate trigger, it's like, oh, that's actually kind of cool to think about. You separate that out, you create this essentially like you would with artificial light, but instead of just this light that's always on and shining, it's flash. And so you can redirect it, you can place it where you want. And then with the trigger, as far as I understand it, you press down, it takes a photograph. But instead of the flash being on top, it's wherever you positioned it. And so you can start to play then with side light or backlight and just to be really intentional with the angling of that and then obviously set in reflectors or things like that so you can start to see how you can be really intentional with structuring that. So is there a specific, like with that entry level light, is there a specific brand that you like or version of that brand?

Yeah, so most entry level ones are going to be fine. For the one that I typically recommend and actually the one one for the course, what I demo is all like standard basic. I'm using a crop sensor camera, I'm using a nifty 50 lens. I'm not using, you know, more sophisticated, super expensive gear. So the Yongnuo, it's a kind of wacky name. I don't even know if I'm pronouncing it right. But yeah, it's one of those where.

It'S like you see it a hundred times and then you're on a podcast and you have to say it. How do you pronounce that?

Yeah, so Yongnuo, they have the 564, which is a pretty popular model of Speedlite. And then the. I'd have to. I can look it up. But yeah, there's. There's another trigger that goes with it. It's very basic, super easy, and it's not a ton of settings, not a ton of buttons. So if you're, you know, worried and feeling like you're going to be overwhelmed, it's a great place to start and should last you for a good long time. And then if you're looking to though you can step up, then another actually inexpensive brand too is Godox. Godox. They make great products as well. And actually all of my studio strobe equipment is all Godox and I've been super duper happy with that. But then of course the different camera manufacturers also make their own proprietary flashes and equipment as well. But you will find then an additional price tag with those. But some people do prefer those. And you'll have some additional bells and whistles that come with those things like a modeling light, which is the ability for the flash because of course you can't really see where the shadows and highlights are going to fall on your scene until you take a test shot and fire the flash. But a lot of those kind of more advanced units will have the ability for modeling light, which is a continuous light that is coming then out of the same place where the flash will come so that you can sort of compose your scene, understand how the light's going to behave and then fire the flash. So that is kind of one of those bonus features.

Yeah, that's great. Last thing that I am actually just kind of curious personally to hear about is you have your kitchen studio. So you've set this studio up that's not your actual kitchen. Right. So this is like a shoot studio. And I think a lot of people are interested in that concept of setting up a place where it's a dedicated place for them to do photography or video or media of any type. What did you learn in setting that up and how does that function kind of on a day to day basis for you within the business?

Yeah, well, it's not as glamorous as it sounds. I think a lot of people go, oh, it's the kitchen studio. And then when people actually come here, they go, that's it.

It's the magic of a set, right? Exactly.

The magic of television. So we actually bought everything used, which I would highly recommend. And there's a local like reclaimed building supply store that's here in Phoenix that I utilized and got my. I took my father in law with me and he is like a hardcore negotiator. And so it was like $600 and he talked him down to 400. So we got these super cheap. We did have.

Nice to have those people in your life. I know.

I was like, oh, I felt really embarrassed because I am not a haggler at all. Like, oh, I'm not going to bet. But he. Yeah, so we got a really good deal on those. We did refinish them and repainted the hardware because they were. I mean, they were probably built in the 1950s, so they're pretty old, but I didn't need them to be super functional. And then we got to use cooktop and use oven and microwave, which they didn't promise would work. But we're like, well, it doesn't really matter if it doesn't work, but lo and behold, we got it home and they actually do work. And then countertop, we just got some laminate countertops for Home Depot, you know, so it was for less. It was about. I forget exactly. I recorded it somewhere. But for about $2,000, I was able to create a fake kitchen that. That looks great and it's really wonderful too. Then in working with. I also do video for clients. And so when we need to do, you know, like a hands and pans video or some sort of cooking video, that it looks like it's an actual kitchen and that there's a cooktop there. So it's. It's really fun. But I, you know, I think that it's. It's a great asset to have, but it's certainly not something you have to have, you know, that in order to have a productive business. But yeah, it's been fun. And I've recently been toying with doing more of my bite shot photography videos in there because before I was like, oh, that's only for cooking videos and you kind of make these weird little rules in your head. But I was like, no, it's really actually quite lovely and get in there and do it.

But I break that rule that I created for myself.

Right. I know it's weird rules, but I think that the key is having enough countertop space and a large kitchen island. Like, if you're gonna go for it, go make sure you got enough room on the kitchen island. That's great.

We're in the. We're currently in the process. We have this. It's. It's like Lindsey described it as like Dunder Mifflin office space that we're moving into. And we're trying to figure out exactly what the kitchen will look like. So it's always good to get some feedback from people who have done that. So we're coming to the end here. Joni, really great interview, both from your story and then also kind of some of the tactical stuff on the photography side. I know a lot of people are going to be curious on how they can follow along both with your YouTube and also check out your courses and the content that you've created there. So can you share a little bit about where people can find you and follow along with what you're up to?

You bet. So the home base for everything, like all roads lead back to or out from joniesimon.com so it's a good sort of landing spot. But I do post to Instagram nearly every other day and a lot of what I include there are behind the scenes shots of, you know, here's the final image and then here's the distraction and sanity and not so cute back behind the scenes which people seem to enjoy and is a good sort of motivator for a lot of folks I think on the day to day. But YouTube is YouTube.com that's where I do my weekly it's every Thursday 7am Pacific Standard Time, YouTube tutorials on any variety of something relevant to the topic of food photography. So like, coming up we've got one all about getting the ultimate cheese pull, right? Super important for food photographers. So just helpful little tips and tricks and tactics and demonstrations of that. And the courses then are all linked through joniesimon.com or you can go to thebiteshot.com so both of those destinations will work.

Awesome. And we'll be sure to link to those in the show notes as well. Joni, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. So great to connect.

Oh, it's my pleasure.

And that is that, my friend. Thank you so much for tuning in to this week's episode of the Food Blogger Pro podcast with Joni Simon. But before, before you go, it's time to share the reviewer of the week. And this reviewer comes from itunes and it's from Betsy Wallace from the podcast the Dinner Sisters. It says Bjork's simple, calm guidance and encouragement is a breath of fresh air in the business podcasting space. I appreciate the show's niche focus on the online food space while also keeping an eye more broadly on the larger world of online business. Business I produce and co host a weekly food podcast, the Dinner Sisters, with my sister. Each week we cook and review three recipes from popular food blogs. So while we aren't bloggers ourselves, we always find the interviews and content highly relevant and valuable. We're both avid listeners and both chat back and forth each week about takeaways we can use in developing our own show and business. Thank you so much for producing such a fantastic show. We look forward to it every week. Thank you Betsy, so much for listening and for your kind words about the show. Good luck with your food podcast and that does it for us this week, friends. We'll see you here next week, same time, same place. And from all of us here at FPP hq, make it a great week.

Sam.