229: Email Marketing - Strategies for Bloggers with Allea Grummert

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And welcome all to the 229th episode of the Food Blogger Pro Podcast. I'm Alexa and we are thrilled that you decided to make the podcast a part of your day today. I have a question for you. What comes to mind when you hear the words email marketing? For me, some words and phrases are ever so slightly neglected. A black hole in my marketing strategy and not really sure what I'm doing. Do you happen to feel the same way? I like writing, so the writing aspect isn't super scary for me, but it's the content. What in the world do I write about? What do my email subscribers want to read about and what resources will be most helpful for them? Well, friends, Ali is here to talk all about email marketing strategies for bloggers. You'll learn so much from this episode as she takes you through her six step process for implementing a successful email marketing strategy. We are so excited for you to check out this episode and if you listen all the way through, you'll find out how you can schedule a free 30 minute strategy call with Allie. Intrigued. Let's get into the episode.

Ali, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, we're going to be talking all about email, which is in the quick chat we had before pressing record. I was saying this is something that is so important in general, but I think especially for people who are kind of blog content focused, I know that's true for us and I know that's true for a lot of people who listen. We think about search engine optimization, we think about ranking high, we think about traffic, but one of the things that we try and do on the podcast is shine a light in the other areas that are just as important but but a little bit more neglected. And I think email for this audience is one of those things. So we're gonna be jumping in, we're gonna be talking about email, we're gonna be talking about strategies, but before we do that, I wanna hear a little bit about your why so why email? What was the path that led you to really focus in on email as what your career is, the work that you do?

Yeah, I mean I might be just as surprised as anyone else who knew I actually started out as a blogger. So I'm from the personal finance space. So thanks for welcoming me into the food space.

Yes.

And I my background is in marketing and advertising and so for me, the blog, I would tell people it's kind of like my quote unquote digital playground. It's where I wanted to play around with formatting blog posts. And writing content and doing keyword research and all of that. I just, I mean, my friends had cooler hobbies was my joke. I'm like, here I was on a Wednesday night writing blog posts by myself about personal finance. And so that was my background in it. And then it just became one of those things where it was really easy for me to do, but not necessarily easy for other people. So they would often ask me questions. And so that's where it snowballed.

One of the things that I love about you telling your story is I think it's important for us to remember as people who are pursuing creative endeavors and also in some ways pursuing some type of freedom that those creative endeavors give us, that we don't. That we don't become too set on just one path to get there. And what I often see with the people we talk with or the people we work with, or just people we, you know, rub shoulders with, a lot of times blogging or anything, podcasting, YouTube, it can be kind of a gateway into another thing that then becomes the thing. But you probably learn stuff along the way with doing blogging where you're like, oh, this is actually an area that I'm really interested in. I have an area of kind of expertise because of my interest. Because of your ability to not go out with friends on a Wednesday night and instead learn about an email service provider, now you have this unique skill set because of your initial interest in blogging. So did you find that to be true in your case, that blogging was kind of this gateway into this new area of interest?

Oh, it absolutely was. I just had no idea. And the next thing you know, I'm watching webinars and I'm reading books and I bought, you know, a big course to go through. And so it was, it was definitely a gateway. And I didn't even know when I started my blog. I thought I was just starting like a budget, coaching business or service, not even a business. And then I learned about blogging, then I learned about search engine optimization and content marketing and all of that. Whereas when I graduated from the university in 2012, content marketing and blogging was still for hobbyists. It wasn't this full time thing. And then what I learned, just from my perspective in advertising, what seemed the most sustainable way to remain in contact with people was email. So to this day, I have the same email sequence I wrote two years ago. People are replying back to me with their money stories.

Yes. Yep.

And so that's where it hit home with me, that it was so Valuable.

Great. And what I love about your story is you. You are not only doing this as a business consulting and helping bloggers, but you also have implemented it and have it within your own. So you have practical on the ground experience and then you're also able to connect with a lot of other people, see inside what they're doing, and help them implement strategies around that. So what we're going to do today, we're actually going to talk through. You have kind of this process that you take people through and I thought that it would be great to actually just talk through what that is at a high level. Obviously there are many details that we won't be able to get to, but I just thought these six steps were really interesting. And so the super high level take on it is auditing and then knowing your people, charting a course, writing copy, implementing, and then measure and improve. So we're going to talk through each one of those steps at a high level. And then this is also a service that you offer if people wanted to work with you. Before we get into it, explain to me the name, why you picked the name that you have for your consulting business.

Yeah, so my business is called Duet, which is spelled with two T's. And it's a nod to the power of collaboration and playing to everyone's strengths.

That's awesome.

And yeah, I also like puns. So I say things like, let's do it.

Yeah, for sure. It works. It works for either one of those. So let's start with at the top. This is one of the things that I actually conceptually love with multiple different areas of businesses, whether it be finance, whether it be search engine optimization, whether it be, you know, revenue optimization. But this idea of taking an audit, it's taking a step back and looking and analyzing where things are currently at. So when you're working with somebody, what does that look like for. For somebody to take an audit to. To actually lay it all out there and, and figure out what their current email strategy is, assuming that they even have one to start.

Right. So a lot of times when I start an audit, and this goes for anything in business, when you're too close to it, you can't necessarily see all the details or you don't have the questions to ask yourself, you're just like, it's not working. And I don't know why.

I feel like it's comparable to the, the house analogy and shining the light. It's like when you've been in your house for so long, you can have a box in the corner and kind of forget that it's there. And like, I'll go over to family or friend's house and I'll be like, wait a minute, like, you guys have a box in the corner, like, what is that? And they're like, oh, yeah, we just haven't unpacked that. And I think you can be that close to your business as well. So, yeah, totally get that and can relate.

Absolutely. So with an audit, this is where you want to take an overview of what you're doing. And if you can kind of go through and look at the technical setup of things, is one phase of it. Another would be the messaging and brand voice. Another might even be visual branding. And this is when I go through and I kind of take a comb through your business and see, okay, this is what you told me your business goals are. Is your email marketing reflecting that? Is your welcome sequence reflecting how you want people to feel introduced to your brand? So in a lot of cases, folks will come to me when they're doing a rebrand or. Or a pivot of some sort, and they're like, I just know that what I wrote five years ago doesn't work. And instead of just scratching it, because there's a lot that we can learn from that. We can learn about the audience engagement, which topics they're responding to the most. And so this tends to be the baseline, because before you really go, start starting to segment your audience. Instead of just picking a segment by random, how can you take the information that you already have through your email to be able to determine what those segments are?

Yep. And one of the things that you said is there's kind of this technical audit. I'm guessing part of that is taking a look and saying, like, is your email service provider ESPs? How we can refer to that? Is your ESP the right match for your blog? I'm guessing that's part of it. Do you have a way for people to understand if they're using the right email service? Or is it kind of like, hey, the one you have is probably going to be working. Okay, let's just use that moving forward. Talk us through how people can understand how to optimize which email service provider to use.

So when I chat with people about what they want their email marketing to do, a big question of that is, you know, how are you going to be emailing your list? So there are different types of providers and the way that they set up your subscriber information can either be in a list or it can be organized by the subscribers information themselves. So things like mailchimp make it really hard for your lists. They don't communicate to one another. So it makes it really hard to really piece out who it is you're emailing. And you want that kind of control to be able to say, I want to email these people and not these people. Whereas I will just say mailchimp doesn't allow you to do that. But if you're only sending a broadcast out once a week to everyone and you don't plan on segmenting, then mailchimp is fine.

Got it. And so just foundationally to define those, can you, can you say, okay, high level, what is broadcast email?

Sure. So a broadcast email is one where it's not automated. You're sending it out live, if you will, or you're scheduling it for like a week in advance. So it's what they also call a blast email.

Got it. And so this would be like, hey, I just published this recipe, you should check it out. Press send. Everybody is able to see that. But it's not something that would be part of like a series or a funnel or an automation. All of those can kind of be clumped together. So broadcast is kind of one off. And then there's this idea of an automation which in some ways maybe kind of live forever. And then the other thing that you talked about was segmenting. Can you talk about what segmenting is and why that's important? And kind of in the audit process, what you're looking for in regards to segmentation.

So segmentation in general is making sure that you're sending relevant content to the right people and that you're not quote, unquote, spamming people who are not relevant by sending them irrelevant content. So an example might be, say you have a blog where you're teaching people guitar and you want to be able to segment out. These people are beginner guitarists and these people are totally shredding it. You want to make sure you're not sending irrelevant content to either one because that's kind of a like, not just offensive, but it's just noisy.

Yes.

And you want to be responsible with your email marketing so that we don't get that, you know, bad reputation of sending spam. And so, yeah, so in the audit process it's looking at from a high level, now that you've kind of been collecting these subscribers, trying to figure out and learning what do they have in common? Maybe what are some nuances that separate them that might mean that they need to receive different content.

Yep, got it. And another example of how we've dealt with this on a really specific level and how we've seen segmentation really help our business. So Food Blogger Pro, there are members and we want to talk to members differently than we want to talk to non members. And there's been times where something, there'll be a little hiccup in our system and it won't properly record somebody who's actually become a member. So then we'll send them an email and it's like, hey, you should join. And they'll respond back and be like, I'm already a member. And it's like, like you said, where it's like, it's this feeling of like, wait a minute, like, this is borderline offensive. Like, why are you marketing to me? I've already joined. And there's all different versions of that. If you have a recipe blog, you might talk about two very different types of things. Like Lindsay on Pinch of Yum might have, you know, a series. We don't have this, but it could exist. A series on our favorite desserts. But then she also does a series on Sugar Free January. And we want to make sure that those things aren't getting crossed over. So you want to make sure that we're segmenting those people. So I think it's a really important concept, but you're kind of getting to this. One of the things that's important is that you actually know who your people are, which is the second step in the process. So you kind of step back, you take an audit, you look at things, get an understanding, kind of the lay of the land. But then you actually need to know who those people are and how you're going to talk to them. How do people do that? How do you get to know who's on your email list?

Oh, man, there are a handful of ways, but my favorite ways are to do either a survey or do one on one interviews with people, whether they're clients or customers. And that sounds so bizarre because we're like, we work online, we don't talk to people. Yes, but you are, you're always talking to people. So. But the way that I do it, typically with my blogging clients, is to send out a survey because we usually get a pretty good return on people responding. And through there, I follow the methodology for interviewing called jobs to be done. So it's asking them, like, what caused you to look for something? What other alternatives were you looking at? And you know, what were you feeling before you found my blog or my resource or my book? And how are you feeling now? And then, what's the number one thing you're able to do now that you have my website?

So I'm familiar with the Jobs to be Done just as a concept. Can you explain do you know kind of where that came from and what the purpose of Jobs to be Done is like? Who would use that concept in terms of building out an understanding of your audience?

Great question. I learned it from a mentor of mine. But the idea is that I don't know if you've ever heard, like, people don't necessarily need a drill. They need a hole in the wall. Sure, right. So if they're looking for. I'm looking for a way to impress my coworkers, it could be I'm going to make a homemade recipe, or I could just go buy them all Amazon gift cards, you know. So what's the motivation behind what they're.

Looking for versus another example being like, they're not looking for a healthy recipe. They're looking to get healthier so they can. Somebody can spend quality time with their grandkids and not feel like they're, you know, wiped out by the end of the day. So they want to be healthy. So, like, what is the core thing of what you're trying to do? And. And then being able to speak is the idea. Then you are able to speak to people in a way that addresses the whole. As opposed to talking about the drill.

Yep, yep. You're talking about the core issue. So, for instance, I just did. I just produced all this research for a client where it's like a deals blog, right? And you're like, well, people just like, saving money. Well, half of the respondents were like, I have no time for my family, for meal planning, for whatever. So when you can say, if I can help make this part of your life easier so you can spend more time with your family, you're going to respond differently to that because it's like, oh, it's like, you know, it's like, you know, what I'm going through at home and the kind of help that I need to make life easier.

Totally. Yes. And it's kind of like it's a reminder of the importance of copywriting. It's the difference between find the best deals on the Internet and get the last part of your day back with your kids. Like, gain back evenings with your kids. And it's like, oh, that's much more appealing to people especially who have that strong need than find good deals.

Right. And like, there will always be, always be those people who just want to be thrifty. Right. There will always be those people who are just looking for, you know, browsing for a recipe. But what's the core issue?

So what are some of the. When, when you are taking, when you are surveying your readers, what are some of the most helpful questions that you've seen to include within a survey to help inform some of the ways that you can start to talk to your audience?

Absolutely. One of the first ones is like, what was going on in your world when you went looking for a resource like my blog? And what's interesting about that is, if you think about it, it's actually what is the external motivation? You know, what happened outside of. Because you, like, maybe you've been feeling like you need to lose weight for five years, but what happened that finally made you think, sure, okay, now I need this. So asking for what that external motivation was like, was it because you have to take family photos soon or something like that? Yeah. And then asking them, what are the things that you found as a result of my blog that have made life easier? And then it allows you to kind of piece those things together for a new subscriber saying, if this is what you're looking to solve, this is how I've solved it for other people.

And is the idea with this information then that you have a general idea of the, broadly speaking, the norm for people who are signing up for your email list or who your audience is? So then you can surface to the top the things that those people most often respond to. So, like, what is, what are we trying to get at with this survey in terms of a thing that we actually fold into as concrete written material as a part of an email.

Right. So part of it is looking for those common threads or those, the most common answers you're getting. So what are you, what are you seeing as common motivations? Is it, I want to lose weight? Is it, you know, I just want a more active, healthy lifestyle? Those things. But then also, you're asking them, you know, what are other alternatives that you've sought out and why didn't they work? And so using some of that language, saying the reason why it hasn't worked for you, creating your own meal plans is because of this, this and this. But that's okay because I have this resource that has been proven to work. So it's calling out, calling out, like, here's why you haven't seen change, or here's why that change is taking so long.

Got it. So you, we've, we've done A little bit of nada. We start to get to know our people through. If you're extremely introverted in a emailed survey, if you're a little bit more ambitious and bold, actual conversations with people that you could line up and just do, whether at a coffee shop at their local. Or zoom.

Yeah, just do a Zoom call, 20 minute Zoom call. Yep.

To get to know people a little bit better. Uh, so then now you have a little bit of a sense of who these people are. My guess is at that point then you kind of plan out like, okay, in this new version of how I'm going to communicate with people through email, here's what, what it will look like. And you call this charting the course. Can you talk about what, what that step is like and, and how people can take this information that they've learned and then kind of build a new plan?

Yes. So this, is this the part of the phase where you're developing out your content strategy but not on a blog. It's part of an email. So what does the sequence look like? When are you addressing objections, when are you saying, you know, or boosting them up with some encouragement for change or. Yeah, so it's looking at what does each of these emails include, what order are we putting them in, where are we leading them, what are we asking them to do? So this is really that high level still before you start writing anything of like, where is it though I, that I want to take people, what's their next step and what do they need to believe is possible before they can actually confidently take that next step?

I think those are really important concepts. Can you talk about the idea of addressing objections, how you do that and why you want to do that?

Yeah. So the objections could be things that they're thinking about themselves or objections that actually other people maybe have told them. But maybe the objection is but I just can never lose weight. So maybe the email is like three reasons why this mindset is holding you back and you just kind of call it for what it is. Or three myths about losing weight. And maybe that's where you teach them too. Part of it is genetics. Part of it's not just because you're not trying hard enough.

Yeah. And the idea here is, you know that there are common threads that, and you, and you've gathered this through the survey. You know, there's common threads that people have in terms of hurdles they might face or, or kind of self limiting beliefs or actual realistic struggles that, that, that exist like in the case of genetics. But idea being, you're calling that out. So you're not pretending like that doesn't exist. You're acknowledging that and saying, like, hey, either this is a mindset, maybe there's something you need to change, or this is a reality. Like, this is just something that exists. And, and here's some strategies that we can use to move through that. And that could exist, whether it's, you know, the example of eating healthy, or it could exist if it's starting a business. Or it could exist if it's like, in your case, you know, it's a series on having success with email marketing or personal finance. Like it. All of those categories will have these areas where people have these kind of issues that exist in their mind that, that you can address, but you don't know how to address those unless you survey the audience. So, yes, it's a great callback.

Yeah. Unless you know what, what's holding them up. So, for instance, with email marketing people, I will hear from clients even saying, well, what do I have to tell someone? Like, why would they listen to me? And I'm like, excuse me, you have 10 years of blogging experience. You have taught many people, you know, and so it's kind of me coming in as a bit of a cheerleader. And you're like, hold up, you do have things to share. Or another example, for a personal finance example, the alternatives that these folks were looking at instead of buying, like a spending or budgeting plan, were diying it for this one popular blog or book author. And then the other option was free apps and tools. Well, none of those worked because one was too complex or one was, you know, my own formulas never worked. But maybe they have this mindset that it should be more complex than it is. Whereas the spending plan could be like, it's actually really easy, or they have this idea this complex about I shouldn't have to pay for money advice when I'm short on money. So there's all sorts of ways that you can kind of work through that, but that's kind of what that research reveals.

Sure. So one of the questions that I have personally as it relates to Pinch of Yum is one of the things we're trying to sort through and figure out is we have this kind of generic catch all, like, hey, subscribe and get an ebook with recipes. It's like a pretty terrible offer and something that's been really neglected. And then we're starting to get into thinking through specific series that we can do that address a really specific vertical. And an example actually is outside of the recipe space. But it was the easiest one for us to kind of test this on. And it was. Lindsey had wrote a couple articles on like capsule wardrobe. So it's more in the lifestyle category and less on recipes. But then we created an email series specifically around how to go about implementing that. It was like a really easy, clear cut way for us to say, like, oh, this is, this would be a great place for a series to exist for somebody who has an. Ideally we would use recipe blogs as an example because that's what we do and that's what we're about. But how specific do you get with the different email funnels that you're building? Knowing that for people who are publishing content, there's probably general categories that we hit as opposed to, you know, like an email service or like a, like a web app, like a SaaS app, where it's like, hey, we do this and we're going to teach you how to do that. Right. Um, or even something is a little bit different than like personal finance, which is like people who are trying to either get out of debt or grow their wealth, which there's probably broader categories to that as well. But point being, question being, how specific do you get and how do you know where to start in terms of what type of content to build around with email?

Sure. So when it comes to building out a lot of different sequences, I mean, I lean towards keeping it really simple. So if those sequences are proving to be something that a lot of people have questions about, like, how do I live a sugar free life? You know, maybe that's where you take your January content and turn that into a series and use that more as an opt in as that they get to join some sort of challenge or course. But in general, if it's content that you can use that needs to go to everyone, it would benefit all new subscribers with the exception of any segments that it wouldn't work. But building that into what I'd call a long term nurture sequence.

Okay.

So your long term nurture sequence can go on for two years if you really want, you can make sure that that content is always going out.

Yep.

So it really varies. So Instead of creating 10 different smaller sequences, if it means that you could do, you know, a handful of shorter sequences that meet their needs and answer their questions efficiently through a course or challenge, and then they go into your main email list where they get all the rest of your really great content and then they start getting your live broadcasts. That's a really, really great way to usher them in. So using it more as like an opt in than necessarily nurturing them on a one off basis.

Yep. So it seems kind of like both and where there's the potential to create smaller series for really specific segments of your site. But then also you probably want to have this kind of catch all sort of that intentionally communicates the best things about your blog and your site. Because a lot of times we have this really clear understanding of our site and each specific post and the best posts. But a lot of times people don't have any idea of the content that exists on the site and they're missing the best things. And so email is probably a good way to do that. Is that how you'd use something like a long term nurture sequence where you'd include some of that most popular content within that sequence?

Absolutely. So, and that's one of the questions I ask even before the audit. I have a new project questionnaire and I ask them, what is the transformation you want to see a reader go through when they've come to your site? They've never met you before. Where is it? Where's point A to point B? And what is the content or beliefs that they need to instill to get to that point? And so, and I ask, what are the top three blog posts do you think every new reader should know about? So it's kind of, it's sharing your mixtape of best. You know, your best of. And yeah, and I was telling you this before the call, but you know, I have bloggers who say, well, why would anyone want to listen to me? And I'm like, well, you wrote this stuff even though you wrote it two years ago. People find that really valuable. So we need to bring that back into the fold. So part of it is repurposing this content?

Yes. Point being that people are nervous or hesitant to reshare content that they've already published, as if it's kind of an inconvenience to people. Like, hey, you're pushing this content. I already know about it, stop bugging me. But it's like there's a very high probability that those people have never seen it. So you need to be really intentional with putting that in front of people.

Right. And even if somebody has seen it, they're like, oh, that's right, I really like that blog post. Or they're like, oh yeah, I've already read that one. I'm glad I'm up to speed. No one's gonna be mad about you sharing awesome content.

Right, Got it. So this idea of charting the course. We're planning it out, we're kind of building an outline, and then we actually go into the process of writing copy. And that's step number four, writing copy that connects. And then this part is interesting. Moves readers to act. What do you mean by that last part?

So whether you're asking people to go to your blog or to follow you on Instagram or to reply back to your email, and that. That is a nod to the call to action. What is it that you want them to do, think, or feel as a result of this? So maybe they're not necessarily acting, but you're helping change how they feel about cooking or change how they feel about paleo or whatnot. But how are you kind of moving them along that journey?

Got it. We've talked about copywriting a little bit, but what are the most common changes that you see or. Or kind of the lines that you continually need to repeat to people as you work with them as it relates to copywriting? Kind of some of the foundational things that oftentimes people forget or maybe get wrong.

Yeah, there's a couple. The first ones that come to mind is personalization. So. And that part of that is dropping their name in the email. But back to segmentation, that's part of personalization, too. So making sure you're only sending content to people that that's relevant to. The other one is that you don't want to hit people with too much in one email especially. And this can go back to some of your nurture emails when you're first welcoming someone and you're like, here's everything. I personally love that I'm like, yes, I'm going to get in on this. I'm going to get in on the ground floor. I'm going to know everything about this site. Thanks for sending all these resources over, but one big thing that I tell people is to know what your one big idea is. You don't need to change their mind about four different things in one email. You don't need to send them to four different. Like join a giveaway and check out my blog post. And I got a new video over here that's completely unrelated. Just allowing it to be really simple.

Yep.

And letting those simple touches be simple. I used to work in video production, and when we would work with a company and they're like, we want to highlight all 16 of our programs, we're like, you realize they're going to walk away remembering none of that.

Yes.

So. So it's just a balance between if you really want them to know, think or feel something, you have to keep that really focused.

It's one of the things that, a really simple, specific tagline that I remember as it relates to copywriting that I've thought about a lot. The more that you write, the less people read. And I don't think that's universal. I think there's exceptions to that. But I think especially on the Internet, that there's this correlation between more and more words potentially means less words actually consumed. And so there's this, this kind of balance between just the right amount of information and, and also as in as few words as possible. So do you have a goal that you shoot for in terms of email length or you, you know, never want it to be shorter than this or longer than this.

That is something that is totally testable based on your audience. So definitely start with whatever feels comfortable for you as a writer. If it's, if it's easier to say, like, here's a two paragraph summary about this latest blog post and send it out and see how people respond. Your audience may just absolutely love that and that becomes part of your brand, that it's short and sweet. I write, I work with a lot of clients who in the finance space, there's just a lot more storytelling that needs to come into play because there's a lot of beliefs that we have about money that we need to work through. And so definitely, if you feel like you're rambling, your audience is going to know that you're rambling. But if you can tell it in a concise story and the story has a direct tie to the call to action in some way or it really makes sense for why you're spending your time telling this story, then it makes sense. But. Yep, yeah, but storytelling is another huge element. I know that we hear that a lot, especially in the last few years. We heard that all the time in video production. And to this day it's still really important. But yeah, bringing yourself into it also helps humanize the content. So it's not just like, oh, I'm just somebody who's over here cranking out blog posts. It's like, hey, here's where I was able to use this recipe recently. This is what people said about it and here's how I hope it can help you.

Yeah, one of the, that last part that you said, here's how I hope it can help you, reminds me of one of the things that Lindsay talks about as she reflects on her writing is the difference between here I am and There you are. And what she talks about is one of the things she hopes to do is, in a positive way, hold a mirror up a little bit through her stories. So it's not storytelling just for the sake of, like, hey, I want to tell this story about me. It's storytelling for the sake of transformation and impact. And I think that's one of the greatest ways to make an impact, is through story. Because for whatever reason, we really connect with stories and can understand conceptually if told. Right. How that then applies to us. So I think that's another really great takeaway as it relates to copywriting and being sure to include stories as much as possible.

And especially because when you share stories, the goal is that people will see themselves in that. Like, oh, I've had an experience like that. Yeah, okay. Someone said that to me before.

Yeah. An example that I think of that we could even, you know, as one of the things that happens on these podcast interviews, I listen. I'm like, oh, we could. How could we apply this to what we're doing? And just the other day, Jenna on our team sent over this screenshot of a message that came through on Instagram. And it was three friends who made every single freezer meal that Lindsey had ever published. And it was like this table of these freezer meal bags, and they got together and they hung out and. And they made these freezer meals, and then they had all these meals prepared for weeks and weeks. And I think it's. That is a way to share a story that highlights content, but then also encourages people to take action, which would be, hey, a great way to use these would be to get together with your friends and make freezer meals. And it's fun and you're doing it together, and it's efficient. And it's also then would make for a great email. Like, you can package that all together and tell a story through that. So inspiring even for me to hear that. So we've gone through this process starting way back with auditing. We've surveyed. We're starting to get know the people that we're interacting with. We have a basic outline where step three, we're charting the course in four, we're actually going in and writing that compelling copy. Where there's story, there's, you know, it's concise, it's to the point, but there's also a call to action involved. That's step four. And then number five, we're actually implementing it. So we're going into an email service provider, and we're building out all of this stuff. So at this point we haven't even really potentially spent much time doing email. We've done a lot of planning and preparing and thinking and maybe in the audit process we did, but now we're actually implementing it. So before we start, I'm curious to know, do you have a favorite? Like if you were to start from zero, what would the email service be that you use? Do you have a favorite or.

I would probably go with ConvertKit because it is such a subscriber centric way of managing your list. There's all sorts of cool things like conditional tagging. I know you can do that in activecampaign as well. I have clients who use that. But I've been in ConvertKit for so long for the last few years where it's just so easy to toggle back and forth between emails in a sequence. It's so easy and it's very much more text based. So it's not going to be like kind of over the top design wise. Like what you can see with Mailchimp or even ActiveCampaign has a lot of design aspects too that you can implement. So convertkit would be the one. I usually tell people though, if you're getting started, at least for the first six months or so, use a free service and just get in the habit of using it, play around with it, make sure the email is something that you're ready to invest your time into before.

And free service being like the basic.

Version of mailchimp, mailchimp or mailerlite is another one.

Okay, great. And before I forget, we interviewed Nathan who's the founder of ConvertKit back in episode 140. So for those who want to learn a little bit more specifically about ConvertKit, you can go to foodbloggerpro.com140 we actually use ConvertKit for WP tasty. We use ActiveCampaign for pinch of Yum. Both are incredible services and really like both email service providers and would agree. I think ConvertKit is a great place especially for bloggers. It's kind of where they started. They've pivoted their language a little bit now to kind of the broader creators, but really started as a place for bloggers to create email lists around selling products and promoting their content. So, so let's, let's use that as kind of the example moving forward. You go in, where do you start, how long, how long does this process take and what are some of the first things that you should set up once you do have your email service?

Provider, sure. One of the first things you'll want to set up is your email template. So ConvertKit is a little tricky, but once you set up your template in ConvertKit, you can toggle between templates when you're creating your broadcast or a sequence. And so having that, it's built into the HTML. So like your fonts will change, your colors will change, your header, all of that just at the flip of a drop down tab. And so you'll want to make sure that it reflects your branding. So a simple header is usually what I recommend. And then making sure that your brand colors are reflected in the links and any of your text.

How do if somebody's not techie, like if they're not somebody who's like, hey, I can go in and you know, put a basic HTML header together, are they still going to be able to do that or would there be somebody that they need to hire that would help with that process?

Well, if you're like me, you can just learn it on the Internet, which is what I did. I did a lot of Googling. So they have a lot of tech stuff, things on the ConvertKit knowledge base to help you out. So it just gets a little tricky. But if you think about it, this is what my mom said. She's like, you help people create things that they can't mess up later. And I was like, that's because the system will make sure they can't mess it up. It's just complex enough learning how to drop a header in. Because ConvertKit is different than Mailchimp, where it doesn't store your files or your images. So there's just some, there's a handful of workarounds. But it is really simple once you just hop onto Knowledge Base and follow the steps there.

Got it. Cool. So you go through this process of building it out. I think in some ways, conceptually this is probably the easiest for people to understand as it relates to going in. They know we've published blog posts before. It's probably pretty similar in conceptually as opposed to, you know, it won't be like you're in WordPress, but the idea is the same. Where you're composing, there's, you're dropping in images, maybe you're including links and then you're also building out these automations. So can you explain in this stage when you're building out an automation, are there recommendations that you'd give in terms of the time between emails that you're sending when you do have this nurture sequence, you know, are you Emailing people every day for a week and then once a week after that. Any guidance on how often you should have these touch points as you're starting to implement this?

Yes. So for the welcome sequence, best practice is you can email people maybe three days in a row and then space it out after that point. So once immediately when they first join your list, and then once the next day and once another day. And in those emails, definitely set up the expectations, saying, hey, I'm gonna make sure that you are totally up to speed on all things pinch of Y. And so I'm going to make sure I'm going to be sending you these emails over the next six weeks. You'll hear from me every Monday and Thursday.

Got it.

So if you're helping to set expectations that way, otherwise you can kind of test and see. Once a week is usually fine. But I don't necessarily. It depends, you know, based on your frequency of blog content and creation. So I have a blogger, a gal who sends out deals. She sends out three emails a week and all the content is different. So if you're cranking out that much content, than it is helpful to email your list more than that.

Got it. Great. So we've implemented it. It's up and running now, but there is a last step, and I love this last step, this idea of measuring and then improving. We have this concept that we talk about on the podcast a lot, 1% infinity getting a little bit better every day over a long period of time. And email is a great way to play out that concept. And because you can continually tweak, change and improve, but it's kind of hard to do because it can get neglected. So how do you keep that top of mind and continue to improve your email? What does that look like on a practical level?

So a lot of this can be very nuanced, but from the beginning. So at the beginning, at the audit, we're tracking your data where it currently is, and we're also determining what your KPIs are, your key performance indicators. Is it sales? Is it number of visits to a particular page? Is it number of opens or clicks at this and this stage, at this point, you already have it built. It's important to go back and continue to monitor those numbers and see what the click or open rate is. At this point, you can go back and do some of the nuanced things, like maybe we swap out the subject line or maybe we test it with something else and see if we get a higher open rate, or maybe we need to adjust the calls to action internally and see. Maybe if we use a different phrase inside of the email, people will click through a lot easier. Or maybe we need to drop in a couple more calls to action throughout the email. Maybe one isn't enough. So that's where you get to play around with that information.

When you're making those changes, what you're looking for is previous performance based on performance after the change. And you had mentioned this idea of KPIs, those could be different. It might be depending on what your goal is. But it might be how many people purchase a product or it might be how many people click on a link and go to the blog post. Or it could be some weird thing like how many people reply to the email or forward it to a friend.

Yes.

So is there a way within ConvertKit? I haven't spent enough time within it to a B test in an automation in email. Or are you having to compare before and after? Does that make sense?

Yep. There is no way to do AB testing right now within a sequence that is in high demand from other ConvertKit users. And let's see. And there's no way to AB test the subject lines either within the automation.

And that's usually why historical, you'd have to look back and say, okay, we made this change. What happened? You make a note kind of either on your calendar or maybe in Google Analytics or something, you create an annotation and then you look back and say, historically, here's what it is. We made the change. If it's better, keep it. If it, if it's worse, then change it back.

Yep. So at that point you're just, you're kind of playing with history and, and seeing if you can beat it. It's like racing yourself on Mario Kart.

Totally. And there's that little ghost, ghost cart that you're trying to be. Yep.

So give it, make a change and then give it, you know, 30 days and see what if there's a lift or not.

Got it.

And that could also be. So say you're incorporating a, what's it called? A webinar. So say you're incorporating webinar. Maybe it's tweaking the name of the webinar to get more people attend or adding in another email to get people to attend live.

Yeah. And things like that, like a simple change of the name can have such a big impact. We've noticed that that's a lot of times how people will make a decision is what is the name? They don't know what the content Is right. So they have to make this decision based on the name. It's one of the most important things. Subject line being another example of that. Is this applicable to me? Do I open this or does it not apply? And then I archive it and don't even look at it? So a lot of things to consider. If you were to say, hey, one thing that somebody can do starting today, Ali, you know, somebody hasn't spent a lot of time with email. They want to get better at it. What is that? We're all about this idea of the first step. What is the first step somebody can take as it relates to understanding or even improving their email? It doesn't have to be a big project. It could be something super simple. Do you have any ideas of what that might be?

I would say ask yourself, what are those two or three resources that I wish every new subscriber could have? Like, if I could gift it to them when they first walk in the door, what is it that I would want to make sure that they have?

That's great. I love that. And the thing that last part that you said there, I think is also really valuable to imagine people actually walking through the door. And I think as much as possible, if we can personalize the online interactions we have, we are going to be better for that. Not only for the ability to serve the people that are working with us, but also the success of the business. Because I think the more that you can serve people, the more successful your business will be. And one of the best ways to think about that is this idea of hospitality. And when people come in, what are the ways, you know, in your house that you make them feel welcome? You're like, hey, can I get you something to drink? Are you hungry? Have a seat. Like, how are you doing? It's all of these relational questions that sometimes get dropped in an online relationship. But as much as possible, if we can start to fold those in, and like you said, imagine somebody coming in the door, what are the things that you could gift to somebody that are truly helpful? Let's try and figure out ways to get those to people as quickly as possible. So I love that, and I think it's a great note to wrap up on. But, Ali, I know a lot of people are going to be interested in connecting with you and potentially working together. Do you have any way for people to reach out and connect with you? And I know that you actually even have a specific page that people can go to. And speaking of those resources, you have those that people can download specific for The Food Blogger Pro audience.

Yes. So I have a landing page created for all of you listeners. So it's Duett D U E t co FoodbloggerPro. And on there I have my freebie there of five ways to get the most out of your email list. So that's helpful whether you're getting started or you've been doing it for a while and you wanna see some, some tweaks you can make to your existing list to make it more personable and more effective. And then I am also offering free 5 free strategy calls to any listeners just to hop on a call with me and talk through any frustrations you might have or any opportunities that you're debating whether to move forward with.

That's awesome. And if people want to, is it submitting their name for a potential strategy call or is it kind of first come, first serve or what's the best way to go about doing that?

So on that landing page there's a link directly to my calendar and it's first come, first serve. And I would say even if you're listening to this a couple days after it airs, definitely check it out and see if there's some that are still available. And so, and at that point, yeah, we can always look at other alternatives if we book those out.

Cool. Hey, that's great, Ali. Thanks so much for talking through this stuff. I know that I have some action items on my end and I know people who listen will as well, so really great to talk to you.

Awesome. Thank you, Bjork.

And that's a wrap, my friend. Thank you so much for tuning into this episode of the Food Blogger Pro podcast. Did any of Ali's advice resonate with you? I really love the idea of creating more personalized email sequences with stories. We're slowly starting to implement these types of sequences on Food Blogger Pro, so. So it was really exciting and really motivating just to hear some of Ali's tips and tactics. If you like the episode, we would love and so appreciate it if you left us a review on Apple Podcasts. All you need to do is search for the show, the Food Blogger Pro podcast, leave us a rating and tell us what you think. It puts such a smile on our faces to know that the episodes are resonating with you guys. So we absolutely love reading your reviews and, and that does it for us this week. We'll see you next time. And until then, make it a great week.