251: Empathy - The Power of Understanding and Serving Your Audience with Laurie Buckle

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Hello. Hello, and welcome to this episode of the Food Blogger Pro Podcast. I'm Alexa from Team fbp, and we are so excited that you are here tuning into the podcast today. Today's episode is all about understanding your audience. We are in a weird time right now, and I don't think anybody can really argue with that. So how do you know that? And your blog will come out on the other side, having created real value for your audience. As content creators, we publish recipes, blog posts, resources, but are they actually serving our audience? And who is our audience anyways? Well, these are all interesting questions, and it's easy to kind of go through the motions of developing, shooting, and publishing a recipe without really thinking about who we're writing to or why they need this content. Luckily, Lori from Cook It Media and Influencer Influencer Marketing Agency is here today to talk through these questions and to help you deeply and personally understand the audience that you're serving. It's especially important to understand where your content fits and what your audience needs now. But the advice that Lori gives during this interview will make a lasting impression on you and your blog. Plus, you'll have a chance to win access to Cook It Media's beyond the Blog course, where you'll learn how to strengthen your brand and you'll learn how to enter that giveaway at the end of this interview. Without any further ado. Bjork, take it away.

Laurie. Welcome to the podcast.

Hi, Bjork. So happy to be here.

Yeah, I should say welcome back. This is your second time on the podcast. We want to make sure that people go back, listen to the previous episode, but we are going to hit on some new things today because we are in a new season, a very unique season of life. And actually, I'm going to pull a quick quote here from an exchange that we had. You're talking about some of the work that you're doing, and you talk about shifting focus away from helping brands or shifting our focus towards ways we can help, which is, I think, is an important word. Brands and influencers we work with navigate all the challenges the pandemic is throwing at us, which we can all relate to. And this. This part is awesome, you said, and come out the other side, providing real value for their audiences. So let's focus on that first part right now. What, as content creators, what are we supposed to do in this weird world that we're living in?

That's the question of the day, isn't it? Of the season that you talk about? It is confusing. I'm Fortunate in that I've been in this career long enough working in food, that I've been across a couple of hurdles before, including 9 11. Sometime I'll have to tell you the Bon Appetit story about 9 11, how that worked out. But it is this. It is a moment in time that I feel like we're all. I keep hearing this, you know, we're going to get through this together. And it. That truly is what's happening. I think we're all trying to navigate it hour by hour at this point. And it's such a. It's a confusing world when you can't make a plan and you can't stick to it and you can't say to yourself, this is what my day is going to look like. But I think once you get to that point where you're. You kind of give into it and you realize, okay, this is a very equal playing field. We are all here trying to figure this out, but that we know certain things about our business, about what we do that are really important to people. And this is the great thing about working in food, right, Is that food is the topic of conversation. Food is what we're all thinking about. Food. Maybe this is just me, but food is getting me through the days and thinking about that and how that is a creative thing that we're doing. And at the same time, we're learning, we're becoming cooks, I think, in ways that maybe we haven't before. Food is togetherness. Food is creating these sorts of family opportunities that I'm not sure happen in busy days where there's soccer practice and homework and all the other things that have to go on. I realized, oh, my gosh, the homeschooling thing has got to be a challenge. But at the same time, that moment, to sit at the table together as food, people, getting people to cook is the thing that really can change everything, I think.

Yeah. And you see that whether it be in the real obvious examples of, like, the rush to the grocery store. Right. Or obviously thinking about food and sustenance and how to get through this. Or depending on your site, maybe you see an uptick in traffic, because suddenly people are at home making recipes. And for a lot of people, these probably aren't necessarily the new recipes that they're creating, but old recipes that people are going back to, and they're making these recipes. So the hard thing is there's this balance between wanting to address the problem, to speak about the problem, but also not wanting to focus on it. Like, you can't just release article after article, post after post that just talks about coronavirus. So there has to be this balance while also not being insensitive and pretending like you don't know that it's happening or acknowledging that. That. Do you have any advice for people who are looking to strike that balance and figure out what feels right in terms of acknowledging this being an incredibly difficult season and not being insensitive while also in some way continuing to create content that is normalish?

Yes. And I think that balance is key. At Cook it, we've really been speaking, spending a good chunk of time working with influencers, helping them try to understand what that opportunity is, giving what advice we can. But same thing on the brand side, the brands are also pressing pause. They're stuck. They don't want to do the wrong thing. They don't feel that they necessarily understand what the conversation is or how to join it in a way that they feel confident about. I think the secret there is. It's so fundamental, and it really does come back to understanding your reader, understanding your consumer. If you're on the brand side, understanding your value to that person, because it runs deep. And when you look at your value and you look at your expertise and you say, wow, okay, so everyone is trying to get through this. We don't need to necessarily. We can let the New York Times do the reporting for us, but we need to get into their kitchens. We need to get into their homes. We need to help them. Them with this coming from the magazine industry, this concept of service content, service content, really balanced with aspirational content, is the secret to exactly what your readers are looking for. Yes. They need help trying to figure out what to do with those dried beans in their pantry, because there's a really good chance they have never soaked a bean before, but they picked it up. It was at the store. It was something that was available, or maybe someone said, wow, have you tried cannellini? Cannellini beans? They're really amazing. And you can do this and you can do that. So I think it's kind of that understanding that, yes, they need help. They also need strategy. Strategy about cooking for leftovers or learning how to store things. I think the question about can I freeze it? Is one of the biggest search terms out there right now. It's like kind of realizing that your pantry is also your freezer, your refrigerator, you're covered. Like, it's all these things. And how do you create that, you know, that sort of opportunity to talk to them about that and to help them through It. But I also think it's that aspirational piece. It's like people want to have great days. Right. They still want to learn things. They want to be connected to other people. How does your content also help them? Help them do that? And watching the bread baking trend and enjoying it so much, I can hardly stand it, because it is a togetherness project. And at the same time, it's something we can share with all of our neighbors happening over here, a couple of loaves a day kind of thing, and it's aspirational. Right. But all of a sudden, everyone's. Everyone's a bread baker.

Yes. Yeah. There's that balance between feeling heard so not being inconsiderate and saying like, hey, this just isn't happening. I'm not seeing it. I'm just going to plow forward. So making people feel like I'm there with you. But also, like you said, I think there's an element of what is. What is that? You know, you're calling it aspirational, but, like the silver lining almost. How can we find good in difficult times? And not to say this is good. I've had conversations with friends or people I know, and for them, it's kind of this unique season where it's a good season for them. They're scaling back on work. They have more time to hang out. They don't have as many responsibilities. But you don't want to say that too loud because for an endless list of people, it's a really, really difficult season. From the most extreme examples of people who are dealing with illness or family members or, God forbid, have lost family members. But also on the. On the work and career perspective, difficult for people. So there is. There is really that. That balance, and it's kind of a sweet science. How do you recommend people develop that voice and the ability to speak to that? It's a really difficult thing and takes practice. Is that something that is, like, a skill you can work on to get better at speaking to your audience?

I think so. When we're having conversations about your audience and trying to understand their pain points, their problems, and also understanding your obligation to them, that you need to help them with these things, we really look to the idea of empathy. I don't think I can overstate the power and the importance of an empathetic view of what your audience is going through and understanding that, like you just said, there are so many different circumstances out there, but everybody's going through something, and everybody needs your content for reasons that are specific to them. So it kind of comes back to that idea of understanding who your audience is and your value to them and ensuring that you are providing that content with a very empathetic understanding of all the things that they might be going through. But bottom line, I mean this, again, coming back to the idea of food, that's it's just this sort of language that we all speak that I think it can make things better.

Yeah. So when talking about your audience, how much of understanding your audience is saying, okay, freeze frame. This is where my website, my followers, you know, social media, where things are at right now. I'm going to try and understand them, who they are, who's following me versus this is who I want to be, my audience. And I'm going to go out and try and attract those people because that's who I want to speak with.

We talk about that a lot. That's a very sort of business focused perspective on the whole idea of audience. And it's really important to understand what we call your existing audience, which is exactly who you're talking about and your value to them, and to always spend time in that space of talking to them in such a way that you're understanding the value of your content, for lack of a better way to put it, but then simultaneously saying to yourself, all right, I think my growth opportunity, there's a certain amount of growth that I can do with this audience. But maybe I'm feeling like, all right, I've got all of these folks and they are great, but I really want to help this individual who's in this particular situation. And if you do it right, what we would call your target audience is out there in such a way that you understand her, you understand her problems, but she might be at a different place in her life. For instance, if you write a sort of a wellness focused blog and your current audience is really well versed in the wellness category and smart about things like self care and understands nutrition and these sorts of things. Like you are, you guys are all effectively experts in the topic, but you want to choose a growth path toward an individual who basically needs more of the basics, who needs to better understand what wellness is and how to interpret that for her family and her situation. You're going to set your sights on a target audience that needs some of that content. So you're going to figure out ways to keep your current audience happy coming along and at the same time build in more content that's really acknowledging that individual out there who needs some, you know, some of the more like straightforward information about Sleep care or anything like that, where you realize I have expertise here. So I want to share it with this other audience.

Yeah, it's interesting. I just for the first time in a while pulled up the app Headspace, which is a meditation app. And it's like, I feel like this is an app I should start using a little bit more now. And when I opened it up, I saw that they had started to include exercise, which is so to me it seemed counterintuitive.

That's interesting.

Meditation is. But it was an example of a brand shifting and expanding and introducing a new kind of audience focus without giving up what previously was there, which was daily meditations. And at first it was a little bit like of a shock or it was surprising, I guess. But then as I spent more time with it, it was like, oh, I guess this makes sense. Like there, there, there's a way that you can have meditative. I suppose yoga would be a version of that. People who really know yoga would know more about that than me. But, but, but it can introduce a new area and a new focus that isn't complete. You know, it's not diverging completely from the brand before, but it's, it's just expanding on that or maybe refocusing a little bit. So a question as it relates to understanding your audience, how much of that is your gut intuition about who the people are from conversations you've had and comments and emails versus more of a data driven approach like surveys and polls and things like that.

So I highly recommend all of that coming from traditional print, traditional magazines. It was much harder to get a lot of that information that you can get now that's right in front of you. It's in all your social channels and it is the conversation that you're having with, with your readers, effectively with your current audience. I used to stand at newsstands in airports and watch people take my magazine, pull it off the shelf and I'd go up to them and I'd say, so why did you do that? What was interesting to you? Did you like that cover line? Was it that photo? So I would do my, you know, whatever that kind of focus group was called. But we would also do very expansive data and research and analysis. But none of it matters. It's unless you bring a deeper understanding of your feelings, your understanding about your audience to the thinking about sort of what you're learning there. So you're asking questions. That's a good. I didn't explain that very well. So basically what you know about your audience is very Specific at a moment in time. It's like what's working? It's like what was the level of engagement with this particular post or something like that. But you need to ask questions of them that are more prodding, more sort of trying to get into what do they like about you? And I feel like a survey is a really great way to do this. The thing about a survey is it's often the people who are most devoted to you and they tell you wonderful things and they're sweet and kind and you know, they, they only want you to do more of what you're doing. But sometimes you get little snippets of information in there that are really helpful. But I do think in your social, on your site, in your comments, that kind of thing, that you can be having some of these conversations. I think stories is actually a great place to do this, where they really are kind of open ended questions like tell us more about what you think about this content or tell us what you'd like us to be doing that we're not doing. And that kind of information combined with your gut, to be honest with you, is really what's going to move you forward. Trust your gut. I think that's a really important thing to experiment with. I think we all have a gut. But honing it, learning from it, letting it make mistakes, and then learning from those mistakes I think is really important in the, in the process of growth.

Yeah, it's interesting, I think about athletes who study film and there's a component of kind of data collection that is happening with that which then informs their kind of gut intuition once they go into a game. And I think as a creator there can be that same combination of having data coming in, feedback, studying, and then letting that inform your, the gut intuition that you have as a creator. When you said I want to go back, you had said stories are really important and then you gave a couple example questions. Are you saying to let people tell you a story with the question that you ask or. Because at first I thought like literally in Instagram stories asking that question, but that might be a good place to do it.

Actually that's a really good point. I was actually talking about Instagram stories because it's interesting. In Instagram stories you are the face of your brand. You are living the brand experience that you are using to create content with. But in your social feed, where it's much more, you know, it's curated, it's beautiful, it's inspirational, that's a different place than over on your website, on Your blog, same thing. That's a content strategy that's different than just being content about you. But I love Instagram stories for that sort of almost like letter from the editor opportunity that it gives the influencer who can really explain, ask questions, do things in a way that are both informative to her and sort of inclusive for her readers. And I think there's so much that we can go, we can ask there, we can talk there, we can do polls there, we can do things there that we almost can't do on any other platform.

Yeah, I think of this was weeks ago now feels like years ago, but it was before Minnesota had a shelter at home. And right as things started to turn towards like, as Minnesota started to go in, head towards kind of a not lockdown, but more of like a mandate around not going into work and businesses shutting down. And Lindsay had posted, I think this was actually on her personal Instagram had posted a question about it and just asked how people are doing and what it's like for people. And I remember we were going for a drive and I said, lindsey, I'm super hungry. We need to go through Raising Cane's. Do you guys have Raising Cane's? It's like a chicken place. And she's like, you can go through. I'm not gonna. But I'm not gonna get anything. So it was like a totally selfish drive through moment of getting some fried chicken. And as we were going through the drive through, Lindsey was reading me some of the responses of what people wrote back. And it was like I had read about it in the news and I am a consumer of news, but because of how personal it was, it made it so real. And it's like, wow, these are people that are connected with us in some way. Followers for Lindsay and like, worked in travel and are losing their job and, you know, are stressed because of some family situation. It's like, like it made it very real. And it was one of those gut moments, I think, for both of us, where it informed how we then respond, even the people that we're talking to and maybe the content that we're producing. Because when we kind of polled on a national and global level, it looked different than it did in Minnesota. Like there was places where that had moved along quicker and obviously that was more on a micro level for this season. But it was an example of doing that poll on Instagram stories, asking that question and then letting that come back and kind of inform how we are viewing the people that we are connected with. And it was a great Example. So it's interesting that you say that because I feel like it was a. It was a use case of. Of that happening. Do you have other examples of the questions that you could ask? It wouldn't have to be related to this specific season, but like just in general, how can people start to collect that feedback and let that inform the content that they're producing or the brand that they're developing?

I love that example that you just put out there. I think when you have experiences like that and they can be one on one, they can happen at an event or something, they can happen obviously in social. But things that to you, like things that became very real to you are the pieces that you take away and you hang on to. Because really what you're trying to do is build a Persona, build someone that you understand in a very sort of intimate way. She or he that you know, this person, this Persona may be based on someone you know, and you kind of expand from there to better understand what are these small, even these small things that are so important, what are those things? And how do I understand this individual, both her, like current challenges and her hopes and dreams for the future in a way that is very knowing. And I think it comes back to that gut idea where you hear those things and they really have a profound impact on you. And you file that into sort of this, you know, this ever increasing file of information about this individual that you're always creating for yourself. Because when you're creating content for that individual, but that individual is sort of an example of all of the things you know are important to your readers, then you have, you know, you have a path that you follow.

Yeah, it's interesting, I think about the examples of sites that would that have done that. Well, I think of my friends Russ and Natalie, who have super healthy kids. I feel like they have a really good understanding of who they're creating content for because of the focus, which I'm sure was a really intentional thing. And I think that. That I would assume in some way that provides a level of clarity for the type of content that they produce. What if you are in a situation where you're just kind of a generalist and you're producing content, you don't really know who it is. How do you move towards a specific focus and evolve that so you really know who you're serving and why is that beneficial?

Exactly. I get that question all the time, or I get that comment where someone says, I'm just not really sure who I'm talking to anymore. I Used to know them and now I don't. I don't even know sort of how old they are. I don't know whether or not they have kids. And that's the point at which, as an influencer, you should be raising a red flag effectively, because without that knowledge, without that sort of rudder that you need to drive your content to inspire you to create ever better content, you're lost. You're really lost at sea. And it's a horrible feeling. It's like having a job with no boss or something. Do you know what I mean? It's like no one's telling me what to do here. I think I'm doing the right thing, but I'm not feeling real good about this. And it's really. The solution is to far better understand who that individual is. Really work to get a handle on your existing audience. And like we were saying way back at the beginning, understanding your value to them, but then also finding within your own brand story, really building a brand story for yourself that keeps you directed on the opportunity. It's always serving your current reader, but always focused on your target reader, too, so that you always. It's like a shark, right? You got to keep moving, you got to keep growing forward, and you've got to keep figuring out sort of who that audience is and all the ways that you can do that. Everything from building a Persona and letting that Persona grow with you to being out there in the conversations and understanding, understanding, you know, sort of where you fit in. What's unique about you? What is it about your story that's giving you kind of the. It's really rooting you in what your opportunity is.

Yeah. Can you talk about that as it relates to. I think in any niche or any industry, we get inspiration from other people and we see what other people are doing and appreciate that. And whether it be, you know, music or restaurant or a website, we can look at it and say, wow, this is really good. I want to create. I also want to create good things in the world. And finding inspiration from that. How do you balance that with being your own unique, creative voice in the world? And what does that look like? It's a challenging thing, but it's also. There's a risk on either side. There's a risk in being too similar to other people, but there's also a risk in going out and doing your own thing. That's maybe unproven.

Yes. You can definitely go too far one way or the other. And the balance is, I think, really the key to success and it really is. It really begins with understanding the marketplace itself. Like you said, we're all out there kind of exploring all the time, interested in this or this piece, and what of those sort of inform our thinking about the opportunity. Understanding that marketplace. And, you know, for food influencers, that marketplace is huge. It's everything from food TV to food podcasts to cookbook authors to really interesting chefs who are kind of changing the way we think about a cuisine or something. It's a huge marketplace, but the more expert you become about sort of what's happening out there, and. And then the opportunity to say to yourself, well, where do I fit in? Sort of what's unique about me in all of this that I know to be true about what's interesting in food right now? Where do I actually fit in? And you're right. It is that balance of understanding. Okay, here's where I fit in terms of my audience. Here's what my audience needs from me, and here's what my growth audience might need from me. And then over here on this side is things about me that make me think a particular way about the subject that I work in, the category that I work in. And finding that, like, finding that sort of root of what's unique and special about you. We actually, in the consulting process@cook it, we call it gap analysis, which sounds scientific and kind of silly, but it is really understanding all of those pieces and then trying to figure out what is that gap? What is the gap in the marketplace that isn't being filled right now that you could actually step into the conversation in a unique way, be incredibly relevant, but it would be really true to who you are and what you believe. And I think finding that requires. Oh, my gosh, it requires so much creativity in many ways. It requires sort of this mindset that has you focused on opportunities like cultivating that sort of what is the opportunity? That's not something that you settle in on one day, and it stays that way for the rest of your career. It's an ongoing way of looking at your future.

Can you talk a little bit about. So for those who have followed along with the podcast for a while or familiar with our previous episode, but with the work that you do at Cook it, can you explain a little bit about that just for context, so people understand what that is and the kind of two different sides of. Of both the agency and also the consulting.

Oh, my gosh, Yes. I forgot all of that at the beginning. I should have introduced.

Yeah, usually I would ask about it. So that's not Your fault. That's my fault. But I think specifically as we are talking about this, I think it'd be helpful to have some context around that at the beginning of this interview. We'll do a longer intro setting that up, but for you just to speak a little bit about that. What is, what does cookit do?

Yes, thanks for asking, Bjork. So don't laugh, but we like to talk about ourselves as outliers in the world of influencer marketing. It's partly me, it's partly my fault. Basically, I started Cook it more than five years ago because I wanted to help influencers better understand the opportunity, the business opportunity. I wanted to help them become better businesses because, you know, coming out of traditional magazines and watching how content was created and understanding that that probably wasn't going to be our future in terms of, you know, really costly, huge teams of people involved in content creation, very specific expertises, prop styling, for example, is something now that an influencer just does regularly. It's just part of how she sees her photography and everything. But there were all, you know, all these pie that made me realize that bloggers are effectively the content creators of the future. But I need to help them figure out how content creation is a business. So spent a number of years working with some really amazing people to better understand the blogging industry so that I could figure out where my experiences and my expertise fit in. And in that process really began to realize that this as an industry, it's so new, but that it's potentially potential is in its creativity and it is in the content piece of it. So Cook it was initially kind of crafted as a support system for influencers in content creation and helping them sort of better realize what that looked like in terms of all of the sort of where their content went, whether it was on their blog, whether it was in their social channels, whether it was cookbook opportunity, that it was all a way of thinking about their content. And that has, because that's always been a part of Cook it and it always will be. It's kind of the core of what we call our brand boot camp, which is really taking that whole process down to the mat and rethinking it and coming out the other side with a much better sense of what that opportunity looks like. The cool part of that was that people were having success. People were coming back to us and saying, wow, this has been really great. And my business opportunities are picking up. I'm not really sure what to do with it. I don't really want to talk to Brands. And again, from my experiences, I've always worked with advertising departments, that it really wasn't much of a shift for cookit to turn around and say, oh, we can talk to them. We love them kind of thing. We really want to help them almost in the same way understand what is this business and what is their opportunity in it. So that's the point at which the agency side of Cook it really sort of began to take shape.

It's a testament to the success that people who have worked with you have had in, I would assume a lot of it is clarifying what they're about and their focus and therefore aligning with potential partnerships a little bit easier because there is this really clear understanding of who they are and what they're about. And much like a magazine, which is interesting to think about, that you coming from the magazine industry, where magazines usually will have a really strong, clear understanding of their brand, who they are, who those people are that are gonna pick up the magazine and purchase it, and then we'll back content into it. But for a lot of bloggers or content creators, they're creating content, but they really don't have that well defined brand. So it's. It's almost like, you know, for the magazine, it was coming at it from starting with a really strong brand. For content creators, a lot of times they're starting with really strong content, but don't have the really strong brand. And what I hear you saying is when you start to solidify what that brand is, when it gets, you know, to the point where you understand who you are, what you're about, and the audience that you're serving, some of those partnerships, the branding relationships become a little bit clearer and therefore make more sense for a brand to reach out and say, hey, I know that you focus on, you know. Well, you give me an example. This is a question that I wanted, that I wanted to ask. Do you have an example of. Of somebody who's gone through the process, redefined what their brand is, and from that started to have more clear partnership opportunities or even just growth in general?

Yes, I. Yes to all of that. One thing just right off the top is that the only way to define a truly successful partnership between a brand and an influencer is for both entities to come to that conversation and knowing who they are and what they want out of the opportunity. So on the brand side, there's nothing worse than a brand that sort of comes to the conversation not really having any sense of what are their KPIs, what do they want to do what is their brand story? Tell us about this product in a way that, you know that we really understand that when they just want to spend their marketing budget and they just think that, you know, okay, well, we'll work with this person. It's already a setup to fail effectively. It won't work and same thing on the influencer side unless the influencer comes to that conversation really clear on the value of that product for her and for her readers. So that she's very organically connecting with the brand in a way that doesn't really exist in traditional advertising. If you think about it, she loves that product and she knows why. And she knows why her readers would be thrilled to know more about this product. And she understands that the brand has these goals and that kind of thing. She therefore gets all the information that she needs to create the kind of content that's really going to be impactful. It's going to be helpful to her readers. It's going to help her as a business. It's going to help the brand achieve their goals. That's where it works. And that's as an agency. That's really where we live, is in that space of making sure that all of those pieces are there as we send everyone out to partner and to kind of create this amazing dance of opportunity that actually results in great content. I'm trying to think of a really good example of sort of how that over time, that becomes basically the secret to the business success for the influencers. So once they do have all of these pieces in play, and it's been our good fortune to help some of these amazing people do this, like Megan of Culinary Hill. One of the first things she ever said to me me was, I don't actually know who I'm talking to. I'm just kind of following the trends. And if it's, you know, if the trend is unicorn cake, I'm all over it. So you can imagine my response that once she started to figure out what are these things that make her unique, you know, she's from Wisconsin, and Wisconsin has completely sort of different traditions in terms of real Americana food and the kinds of parties and events that would take place in parking lots and things, I was. I was just so listening to her talk about this, it was like, oh, wow, Megan. But look at this thing about you that you have this childhood, you know, sort of informed by all of these amazing experiences that people see as, yes, even if I'm not from the Midwest, I want to know how to cook that way. I want to have that kind of party sort of thing. That for her was effectively her opportunity, that gap in the marketplace that we were talking about. And she has gone on to really great things, to a couple of new iterations of herself, all new strategies. She's really digging into video now. She has a team working around her. She's just a. She's a really, I guess she's an amazing example of a success story.

Yep. And we actually did an interview, this is a few years ago now, where she talks specifically about what that process was like. That's episode number 93. So for those who haven't listened to it, you can go to foodbloggerpro.com 93 for the deep dive into that story. So thanks for sharing that.

Sure.

So I'm curious to know you have, you know, we've talked about this idea of going through this process, understanding your audience to become well rooted in this idea of who you are, what you're about. Once that happens, then what, like, what does it look like after you go through this process of understanding who you are and what you're about and, and the type of content that you're going to produce? What does that look like moving forward? Do you go through a rebrand? Do you change your name? Do you have a, you know, like a little headline for your. How do you implement it?

Great question. Yes, I think it's safe to say that you will come out the other side of that experience with a new view, a new vision for where your brand can go. People are probably tired of me repeating this over and over, but I am not a big fan of the blog format. I find it to be so limiting and so antithetical to what the reader is actually coming to do. If you think about it, she's coming for a lot of reasons. And it may be that she has chicken breasts and she's coming through search and she ends up in your recipe index, and that's just fine. But let's also assume that she may not know what it is that she wants to make for dinner. She may be sitting in her car in the parking lot of the grocery store, scrolling, trying to get home in time to get dinner on the table before everyone gets really hangry. So that's a different experience. And if you're able to create an opportunity for her, sort of a user experience, that isn't the blog format. The blog format is really, it's kind of like a roll of paper towels, right? Like, it just, here's a piece of content. It basically rolls down and under and you never see it again. But if you're able to think beyond the blog, if you're able to think sort of really expansively about what a website can look like, how it can be more like a magazine, and how you have content categories, content verticals, where certain kinds of content live there with their own landing pages and everything whereby the reader is able to explore across the site. It's almost like a vertical versus a horizontal. If vertical was the blog and horizontal was the website strategy, it's just a much more expansive way of thinking about your content and how it's there to serve her in different ways and how you connect the dots, that's actually going to be freeing for you because it means that in one blog post, you don't have to have have every single component of every possible thing you want to say about that recipe, that you can spread it out in such a way that she can begin to see that, oh, okay, over here I can go learn how to do this technique that's going to make me smarter about making this recipe. Or here I can go find out about this ingredient, which I've never bought before. And I'd like to know more about.

How to prep really is one of the benefits of the niche, the industry of food and recipe in that for the most part part, the content that we're producing will have some level of being evergreen. If you have a really great recipe today, chances are it's still going to be a great recipe in a year. And it's something that we've started to think about even more. For Pinch of Yum, how do we start to treat our not just individual piece of content as valuable, but how do we treat the entire forest of content as valuable? Valuable and starting to look at creative ways to organize that and to display it and to resurface content. And the great thing about that is every single piece of valuable content that you put into it can be a multiplier. Like you can have one piece of content that also improves other pieces of content. Like if we put out a explainer on how to cook tofu, we can refer back to that in multiple different instances and we can create a roundup of recipes that include tofu. And in a certain season, we could maybe surface that on the homepage of the website if we wanted to. Or a better example might be instant pot recipes for pinch of Yam. I think it's a, it's a shift that requires some change in how we think because most of us are in this content engine, just moving forward Producing individual pieces of content. Content. But we can shift that and look at organizing our content and that being valuable. What are some ways you had mentioned some kind of organizing into certain categories, but on a ground level, what does that actually look like to treat your blog not as a blog but as a website? How should we treat our content and organize it and display it in order for that to happen?

Well, I think I could go on forever bjork about that. That really is kind of the core, I think, of what we are trying to do. I think where you are in sort of that learning and that understanding is exactly the right place. It's really making sense to you in a way that puts, I guess the best way to think about it is how your content has real value. I think content in some ways is so easy for influencers to create that they, they almost forget that it has enormous value. Not just on the day it posts or the 20 minutes it goes live on your Instagram feed, that it has lifelong value. Effectively just the way you were saying. But it's in the creative ways that you think about using that content that get all of that value out of it. This is something coming back to magazines again. This is something that really smart publishing houses do. So, so from content that's repurposed into what are called special issues, which are sort of individual magazines that you see on the newsstand that have a special theme, you know, whether it's like 15 minute dinners or something like that, there's, you know, I think sometimes influencers worry that. But wait, all of my people have already seen that content. That's the opposite of true. Almost, you know, the smallest percentage possible has seen that content. And even if they've seen it on one platform, if you're able to aggregate that content in such a way in another place, in another way that's really valuable to them, they're happy to have it there because they can't do the organization for themselves. They are relying on you to really help them understand where is the content when they need it. If that's in a cookbook, if it's in an app. I think apps are a really interesting growth strategy for influencers. That hasn't been considered a lot lately.

Can you talk about that right now? Because I know that people will be curious when you say that.

Yes. So when apps first came out, I think I'm going back to like, I don't know, 2009, 2010 kind of time. They were so interesting because they were like products that you could purchase. They might have been a collection of recipes from a chef. And you loved that restaurant. You wanted to learn, you know, how to cook that way and everything. But they were only. They were basically recipes and then tips and techniques and that kind of thing. That's really just one example of an app that I was obsessed with at the time and I was willing to pay for because I wanted all that in one space that I could take myself through the learning process there. And if you think about an app now and how it can really aggregate information, ideas, just the way you were saying, it's that you can have this one recipe, but then you can link to it here and here. That can happen on your website, but it can happen sort of really fluidly in an app where you own all four walls of that experience and are directing, you know, the reader through that process.

And have you seen people who have done that or just observed bloggers who are starting to or have a focus of using an app? Or maybe not bloggers, but publishers.

Oh, gosh, Meredith Publications is brilliant at everything that they do in terms we call it repurposing content effectively. And I think they are more than any other publisher, which is probably the reason they're doing so well now when so many other publishers are kind of falling back and not able to find their place. They have really realized that they sit on a gold mine of content and that all the ways they can use that content, they're in it, whether it's a television show, whatever it might be, they see that opportunity to. All right, that would work here and that would work here. So I think that's.

It's really syndicated content. You can watch the Office on Netflix or Hulu, or maybe you can on Hulu. But just this idea, like when we think of a movie coming out, it's not like you can only see it in theaters. There's all these different places that you can see it. And the same is true for the content that we're creating. It can exist in multiple different places. So interesting for you to talk about apps as being one of those. Obviously, social media, we think about that, we think about our websites, but there's lots of other places where those can look.

Exactly. And as, you know, as influencers become ever more sort of celebrities in the process of creating big brands around themselves. Celebrities isn't my favorite word, because I don't mean that kind of celebrity. I basically mean a brand that's recognized by the individual who's providing you with the content. So whether that's Ina Garten or Giada De Laurentiis, that they're getting smarter and smarter about realizing that. That their opportunity in that marketplace has very much to do with sort of who they are combined with their content. So it's kind of coming full circle back to when we talk about your blog and the fact that you're creating content for your reader. And we're saying to folks, it's not about you. You always thought it was about you, but it's not. You're actually working for that reader over there. By the time you're really succeeding, you have a cookbook, you have multiple cookbooks, you have television shows, you have events, you have all these things that. That you probably have your own food product and things like that that are all really kind of built around sort of your brand.

Yes, it's interesting. It actually comes back to that second part that we had talked about to kick things off, where we had talked about shifting focus to helping brands and influencers navigate the challenges that the pandemic is throwing at us. But the end part of that was saying coming out the other side, providing real value for their audiences. And I think that is a clear takeaway and maybe a good note to wrap up on is this idea of the purpose, the reason that we're doing all of this, the reason that we talk about branding and understanding your audience and developing an understanding of who you are and doing the gap analysis, it all like the ultimate why is providing value for your audience and in a way that makes the world a better place, whether it's in a really specific season where the world being a better place is needed, the season that we're in right now, or if it's during a normal time in life where there's still a need for. For people to have what it is that you can offer to them, the value that you can create for them. So I think that's a good note to end on, but I want to. I want to hear you talk about that a little bit. What does that look like for a influencer, for a creator, for a publisher to offer value? And how do you know if you are creating value for an audience?

So right now, I think there is this opportunity to understand value in such an important way, because you really are. Because we are in this together. We're all trying to figure out what the answers are and how to be helpful to each other. I think it's this moment where, go ahead, jump into the conversation, take a chance, provide value, and then listen. Listen to what you hear. Let people talk to you. Let people thank you for that. And I think that will stoke something in you, whether you're a brand or an influencer, that helps you realize that it's not complicated. It's as simple as really providing help. And I think everyone has so much to learn from this process right now. Like you may think it's not all that interesting that you're going to show somebody how to soak beans. Coming back to what we were talking about way back at the beginning, but that person, that may be a life changing experience for them, and that's kind of an exaggeration, but you're teaching them something. You're helping them in this crazy situation. You are providing them with a great idea, some something for their family. It's an inexpensive product that probably lives in their pantry and all those things. So when you begin to realize that there is this moment right now at which you are really important and to jump in, to take a chance to be creative with what you're offering and the way it expands your knowledge and what you want people to know about you, I think that's going to give everybody, those who are really kind of willing to take this leap of faith, a view of their future, kind of a vision for where they can go and how they can get there. Again, learning by your gut, right? Like what's working. I'm going to keep trying this and now I'm going to try this. I'm learning, I'm hearing and I'm realizing that, wow, engagement is up. All of these things that we're seeing that are actually showing success on the part of the influencers content. Be inspired by that and be informed by that.

Yeah, that's great. Laurie, I feel like you could talk for another hour here, but at some point we'll have to wrap up. Yeah, if, if I want to mention one thing here real quick. Before we pressed record on this, you said we're just really in a season of figuring out how we can serve. And I feel like it comes back to that idea of value. And I think that's so awesome and a testament to what you guys do and how you do it. But I do want to mention that for a long time you've done the consulting, you've also done the agency. But for those who are interested in going through this kind of at your own pace and are interested in exploring this, you do have a course that you have called beyond the Blog. We'll link to that beyondtheblogcourse.com and would love for people to check that out. Cause I think it's an important conversation for you to have, and it's an important investment as a business owner. And I want to make sure that I take time to point that out so that in this season of service and giving that I can promote that for you.

Thank you.

Yeah. The other thing that I want to mention is you had said that it'd be great to have a conversation around this and to hear what people are doing in this season, some of the things that they're hoping to do. I'll say this, it could be either one. Uh, so go to the the episode for this podcast episode. You can link to it. We'll make it super easy. We'll do it. Foodbloggerpro.com CookIt Leave a comment and the comment can be one thing that you're hoping to do with your business or potentially one struggle that you're hitting as it relates to some of this stuff. One of the things that you're really trying to figure out. And we'll have a conversation around that in the comments area. Laurie, would you be up for jumping in on some of those comments? And I'm asking you in real time here. I didn't ask if you'd be okay with this, but let's say for a certain period of time, maybe for a week after the podcast goes live to jump in on those comments, to have a conversation with people that are leaving those comments on the podcast. Show notes.

Oh my gosh, I would be honored to do that. One of the things that actually comes with the beyond the Blog course is a Facebook group. The course hasn't launched yet. It's launching in. Oh my gosh. I think it's about a week now. Super exciting for us. But I am so excited about this Facebook group and this chance to really talk to folks as they go through this process, as they learn, as they have questions. It's really in the talking about it that I think it starts to make the most sense. So yes, I'm over there on the Facebook group and also I would love to hang out in your comments and as well.

Great. So we'll do that for one week after the episode goes live. Laurie will jumping in the comments. It's foodblockerpro.com cook it. And then something else that you've said, which is really generous, is for one of those comments, we'll give the course away for free for somebody who leaves a comment there, which is always nice to have a motivation for people to take that step and to kick off the conversation. So, Laurie, thanks so much for Coming on the podcast again, really great to connect and appreciate the work that you're doing and your willingness to share it with our efforts. Audience.

Thank you so much, Bjork. I really had a great time. Thank you.

And that's a wrap on this episode of the Food Blogger Pro Podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in today, my friend. And as a reminder, you can enter the beyond the Blog course giveaway by heading to the Show Notes for this episode@foodbloggerpro.com and adding a comment saying one thing that you want to do with your business after hearing this interview or one thing that you're struggling with. We will pick a winner after this week and notify you via email. And if you don't win that giveaway, no worries. Lori was nice enough to give the Food Blogger Pro podcast listeners 40% off of the beyond the Blog course. So if you want to take advantage of that deal, you can go to BeyondtheBlogCourse.com and enter Food Blog 40. That's all one word at checkout and we have the details for that at the Show Notes for this episode. Again, that's@foodbloggerpro.com CookIt One last thing I wanted to mention before we wrap up today is that two new reviews for the Food Blogger Pro podcast came in this weekend. So to Jonas and to Lori, thank you so, so much. Totally made my weekend and I just passed the reviews onto our team. I'll share one of the reviews that we got this week and then one next week. So this week's review, it actually comes from Apple Podcasts and it comes from Jonas and it says, I'm a German food blogger who recently stumbled upon your podcast and I have become addicted to it so quickly. I just listened to the last 100 episodes and can't wait for the next one. Really good content. Keep up the good work and thank you so much for everybody. Everything. Danka Jonas, we appreciate you listening to the podcast so much and the fact that you've motored through 100 episodes already is incredible. Thank you so much for your review. So that does it for us this week, my friend. We'll see you next time. And from all of us here at FPP hq, make it a great week.

Sam.