266: FBP Rewind - Write More, Write Better, and Write Smarter with Gabriela Pereira

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Hello, hello, Hello. You are listening to the Food Blogger Pro podcast. I'm Alexa, and I would like to personally welcome you to the show this week. This week is another FBP rewind episode, where we rewind back to one of our popular episodes, one that's relatively timely and one that we'd love for you to revisit. And today's is one of my favorite episodes of all time, and it's actually one of our most popular episodes ever. And it's with Gabriela Pereira from DIY mfa. And those are two acronyms. I think that's what they're called, that you may recognize, you may not recognize. But this episode is all about writing, which is my favorite thing about blogging. And if you are in the same boat where you really love the writing aspect of blogging, you will love nerding out about writing in this episode. And if writing is not your thing, hopefully you'll learn some tips, some strategies in this episode from Gabriela that you can apply to make the writing process a little easier and a little bit more fun for you. So we love this episode, and we hope you enjoy rewinding back to it as well. So without any further ado, let's rewind.

Gabriela, welcome to the podcast.

Hi. It's great to be here.

Yeah, I'm excited to talk about all things writing with you. So we were chatting a little bit before we started this podcast, and we have a mutual connection. Danielle, who, for those that listen to the podcast, know that we interviewed Danielle, all About Things Legal, All Things Legal, as well as sponsored content, is a great podcast. And she said, hey, this would be another great interview for you. So I wanted to line that up and make it happen. So excited to have you here.

I'm very excited to be here.

Great. So, and this is also nice because you have your own podcast. And I always am reassured when people have their own podcast and do speaking and stuff. It's like, okay, this person is going to be a great podcast guest. So it's.

Oh, no, now you've raised the bar.

Yeah, right, Exactly. You don't have a podcast and you've never spoke to before. Maybe that that would be a better way.

We can lower the bar under a rock.

Yeah. So we're gonna talk about all things writing, and we're gonna talk about how people can apply that, whether to a food blog or to a creative process or maybe writing a book. But before we do that, I'd be curious to talk or I'd like to talk a little bit about the brand that you've developed, and the brand is diy, which we know. And then there's mfa. So for those that aren't familiar, what is MFA and how does DIY MFA all fit together?

So it's funny that you say that DIY is the part that most people know, because when I founded DIY mfa, I always assumed that the one that people would know was the MFA piece, and the DIY was the piece that, like, I don't know.

You'd have to explain.

Yeah, but. So diy, do it yourself. And MFA stands for Master of Fine Arts, which is the degree, the graduate degree you would get in any of the fine arts, including creative writing. Got it. And it's a degree that I earned back in 2010, and it was of the. The degree was the impetus for creating this do it yourself alternative to that.

Got it. And diy. It's interesting. Even with diy, I feel like there's been a rise of the DIY movement. So maybe that's why even in the past, probably 10 years, where people are becoming more familiar, I think there's, like, a DIY channel. Isn't there a diy, like, construction channel or. And I use the phrase all the time because I'm a terrible DIY guy. So, like, anything around the house, I'm like, oh, sorry, Lindsay, I'm not a DIY guy. So it gets used often. But I.

Well, you know, when I started DIY MFA back in, what, 2010, like, I thought about DIY before it was cool because it wasn't as big back then.

For sure. For sure. Yeah, for sure. So the idea behind it is, for those that are interested in getting their MFA or are interested in this idea of the fine arts, it's kind of this statement that, you know what? You don't need to necessarily go and have this formal education process because you can do it yourself. Right? The DIY mfa. So would you say that that applies to everybody, or is there this subset of people where you say, hey, if you want to do this, maybe it's write a book or start a blog or, you know, be a published author in some way. You don't need to get your MFA in order to do that? Or would you say, hey, this applies to everybody? Everybody can kind of have a DIY mfa.

Well, I. I guess I would say that the people who I think need an MFA are probably the very small minority. But I'm always very careful not to bash on the MFA system for a few reasons. First, because I have one now. I'M the first to admit that I went back to school and got an MFA for all the wrong reasons. But those were the reasons that Most people get MFAs, right? Like, the reason most people go back and get a degree in the arts. It's not because you need the piece of paper in order to do your job. It's not like a medical degree where someone's not going to let you cut a person open and do a heart transplant if you don't have, you know, an md. But it's one of those degrees where people will get it because they don't feel like they're really an artist or really a writer or really a musician. You know, it's that whole aspiring syndrome. People call themselves aspiring, but they're not the thing. And they get a degree because it's a way to sort of. It gives you something to point to. Right?

It's validation.

Yeah, exactly. And it was really when I graduated from the program that I realized, first of all, hey, this was great. It was a good experience. But I kind of could have learned a lot of this stuff on my own, number one. And number two, I kind of don't need that external validation. I just needed to own it myself. And so the whole idea of DIY MFA is to kind of give people permission to own it. And if, you know, obviously there are few people, a small minority, who do need MFAs. If you, for instance, absolutely will never write a single word unless you have a professor breathing down your neck and giving you a deadline, then you should probably go back to school. However, I would challenge those writers to think about what they will do with themselves if they, you know, once they graduate and they don't have a professor breathing down their necks. So that's kind of the other side of the problem. Right.

So one of the things you said was owning it, and I'd love to hear you talk about that. Before we get too far away from it, what does it mean to own it when it comes to writing or producing content?

Hmm. I think it's not in my mind. I mean, I think it means a little bit something different to each person, but for me, it means just doing the work and not being so hung up on the label that goes on the work or on the person who does the work. So it's funny, I actually, if you look on DIY mfa, the website, I don't call myself a writer or a, you know, entrepreneur. I mean, I'll say it, but, like, my title, my official business title is Instigator.

I saw that. Why is that?

Because I think titles are ridiculous. Like, I don't think I need a label to say what I do. I'm just doing my thing. And, you know, if this was some big corporate hierarchy and, like, we needed some, you know, we needed labels so that people outside the organization would know who's in charge, then fine, I get it. But, like, when I'm with my team, everyone knows that I'm the, you know, I'm the ringleader, and everyone knows what they're supposed to do, and we kind of don't need those labels. So it's sort of become a joke at DIY MFA that people. I'm like, you know, when someone needs a title, I'm like, just make something up.

Yeah, for sure.

It doesn't matter. So I just got instigator. Like, that's mine.

Yeah, for sure. So I. And that's interesting you say that. So on my LinkedIn, which I am terrible at updating, it actually says that I still work for the nonprofit that I stopped working for, like, four years ago. And I need to update that. But one of the things I've thought about is for my title, it was kind of the same thing. And I put something like Internet Marketing Ninja in training and which is. It's one of those things where, like, anytime you use Ninja, it's a little bit embarrassing. So that in and of itself is. Is like, okay, I roll at myself. But one of the things I wonder sometimes is, like, when I try and connect with people, it wouldn't be you, because you get the, like, title thing. But sometimes I wonder if I lose credibility in the eyes of other people because of my lack of assigning, like, CEO of, you know, whatever site that we. That we have or brand or. Do you feel that. Do you feel that as a potential issue at all? Like, when you're reaching out to other people that aren't from. That aren't inside your like, that know you as the ringleader.

Absolutely. And that is why I have different business cards with different titles on them.

So what does your business card say?

So I will tell you, like, my whole title strategy because I have thought long and hard about this. So I have my instigator title, and that's sort of the one that I use within my, you know, within my people and the people who know me and like DIY MFA and people in the book world who know what I do, yada, yada. But I also have business cards that say creative Director. Notice that they don't say founder. They don't say CEO. They don't say, you know, whatever, president. That's deliberate. Because I want to look like I'm just high enough on the totem pole that I can make decisions on behalf of the company, but that there could potentially be someone higher up on said totem pole. And this is super important because sometimes I need to buy time when I'm trying to like make negotiate something or talk to someone about something. And so if I can say, and now, of course I'm saying this on a podcast, everyone's going to know what I do, but whatever, at this point, no one really cares, right? But it's very useful to be able to hand someone a business card or whatever. And I'm like, you know what, I just need to check with my people and then I'll get back to you. And that buys me enough time to sit with whatever the decision is and decide if that's what I really want to do or figure out how I'm going to say no to that thing. Usually it's the figuring out how to say no to the thing that I.

Need to do that is really interesting. And it's one of the things I've thought about adopting for my own decision making process is like the ability to build in specifically if I were to ask you, pitch you on an idea. Sometimes that will happen in a conversation or phone call or something like that. I feel like I need something in my back pocket that I'm able to say, I'll get back to you. And it sounds like that's essentially what it is for you is like saying buying that gap where you can download, you can process. A lot of times you can actually bring it back to your people and run it by them and then come back and say, here's the decision we made. I totally get how that works. Where you want to process through something as opposed to making a decision on the spot. So what you're saying is if you had CEO on your card, it would make it look like you could make that decision on the spot. Technically you could, but you need to buy some of that time in order to process.

And it's also about like, you know, a lot of times I don't even need to ask my team about it. Sometimes it's legitimate. Like right now I have someone on the, you know, in the, on the team who is the web editor and she handles everything that goes up on the website. The only posts that I control at this point are the podcast show notes, because I'm the one sort sort of Producing that. But everything else, she's got the calendar, she knows who's going, whose post is going up, when. And I literally would mess things up if I went in there and changed things around. So in some cases, like now, I actually do need to check with someone before giving someone else a, you know, definitive answer. But nine out of ten times, I'd say it's like, it's just to give myself the distance so that I can make a smart decision. And a lot of the times I'm still going to say yes. But there's a difference between saying yes in the moment and on the spot and saying yes after you've thought about it.

Sure. Yeah. Really interesting. You were talking a little bit about the business side. I'm excited to actually talk to you about two things today. One of it, one thing that I want to talk about is of course, the writing. And for people, you know, I would. I have no idea. We've never actually surveyed to see how many people. But this is so me. Based on, like, interactions with people via email, I would assume 75, 50 to 75% of people that listen to this are actually in the food recipe niche. And then I would say 25 to 50% of people that listen to it aren't at all. But just follow along because they're interested in hearing the conversations and hearing about different businesses. So point being, I'm excited to talk to you about writing and we'll focus in, you know, just to have an area to focus writing within the food niche. But just writing in general, I think is so important. It's such a huge part of the communication process. And then second, I want to talk to you about your business because obviously those are two things that you are knowledgeable on. You have the writing piece that you're knowledgeable on, and then you also have the business that you've built around the topic of writing. So let's jump into the writing topic first. And you have your blog, the website, which is also business. And then you also have a DIY MFA book. And with each one of those, I've noticed that there's kind of this focus on three main areas. Write with focus, read with purpose, and then build your community. Would that work for you if we kind of do a deep dive into each one of those areas?

Absolutely. And I would say actually, like, given the sort of more outside of writing breadth of your audience, I would even say, like, those categories can be broadened. So I've started playing with the idea that write with focus, read with purpose, build Your community, really what they are are right? With focus is the like creative output. It's like ideas going out into the world. Read with purpose is the writerly equivalent of ideas coming in. But in the food niche, that might be tasting foods or sampling other people's recipes or whatever, Whatever way that you are taking in inspiration and then build your community is the exchange of ideas between multiple people. So if we kind of think of it as those two, three trajectories, ideas out, ideas in, and then idea exchange, I think like we can even broaden the discussion further.

Yeah, absolutely. And I do think that I'd be interested to hear from people and I should start asking people this when we sit down and have conversations with them. How as a food creator, food recipe, food blog creator, how big do you feel like writing is as a part of the, the, the job? I know for Lindsey, my wife Lindsay, she has a blog called Pinch of Yum. Writing is a huge part of it because she's super passionate about connecting with people through writing. I also know there are some people who are like, eh, I hate the writing part, love photography, love the recipes. So I think even within the niche itself, it really depends. But let's, so let's jump in on this first area. Write with focus or kind of this idea of creative output. So the part that I'm interested in specifically with that is this word focus. And what does that look like and why, when you were kind of branding these, why was focus such an important piece of it? And what does that mean?

So there's a difference between writing in the dabbler sense and writing or creating with a focus. So it's sort of the difference between someone who goes into the kitchen kind of like the way I do, and they sort of throw things in a pot and hey, maybe it works or maybe we're ordering takeout tonight. And that's just what it is. And I mean in high, in college I was known for, in grad school, my husband at the time we were dating. And it was like a running joke that like whenever it was my turn to cook, it could be phenomenal or it could be the most grotesque disaster ever. So there's a difference when you're doing, when you're creating with focus, there are kind of three pieces to it. There's the ability to be motivated but also meticulous in the continuous practice of the thing, the art. So this has to do with the whole idea of iteration that I go into in the book and that I talk about at length on the diy MFA blog and everywhere else. But I'm kind of obsessed with this idea of creating as like little micro experiments where you create something small and then you test it out and you let people sample it or see it and experience it, and then you tweak it and then you put it out there again and then you tweak it again. You keep kind of iterating on the same concept. This is different from practice, where in practice, like if you think of a yoga practice or a meditation practice, it's all about being very present in the moment and being present in the experience. Iteration means you have to be able to step back from that experience and that practice and assess whether or not it's working. Like, if you're doing yoga and you're really into it, I mean, I'm not very good at yoga. I'm usually trying to analyze my yoga as I'm doing it. This is why I suck at it. But the way to do it is to be present, right? The minute you step out of the experience and you start assessing whether or not it works, that's when you're not really in the practice. So the first piece is the practice element, the ability to have some sort of contained way to do the work and then step back and evaluate whether or not you want to keep doing it that way or whether you need to change things up.

Two questions with that. Just before we get too far away, when you say contained space, what does that mean again?

I have a whole method with the writing piece of how writers can assess their own process. So I talk about writing and collecting data. Like I literally, when I wrote the DIY Mafa book, I collected data on myself. I would track exactly how many words I'd write every time I sat down to write. I'd also track how long I wrote and then I'd calculate my words per hour because I'm just that nerdy. And I'd also make a note, note to myself every time I sat down to write as to whether it felt like I had been effective or not. Because it doesn't matter how fast I wrote or how productive I'd actually been if it felt like pulling teeth, that's something I needed to be aware of.

And then what do you do with that data then once you collect it? So I imagine somebody that is right. So we're in the middle of. We're going to come up. Food Blogger Pro is a membership site. We have a lot of content that we share in a short amount of time, including emails. And we're Doing a, like a one day boot camp and all this different stuff. I'm writing a lot for it. It's not like I'm not writing a novel, but I'm writing more than I usually am because I'm communicating more. And I've noticed, like, oh, I'm not very good at this. Like I don't have a system set up for it. So are you trying to revise your system when you are doing that and using the data to inform that? So do you have an example of like how that data influenced you and then a change you made?

In fact, I do. When I was writing the DIY MFA book, I at first, because I have two small children at the time, my daughter was what? She wasn't even one when I started writing it because I signed the contract. She was maybe 8 months old and my son was like 3 and he's like a very energetic child. So at first I thought, oh, I know what I'm going to do. I've got all these hotel points. Because at the time my husband was working at a law firm, he traveled a lot, so he had all these hotel points. I was like, like, I'm gonna hole up in a hotel like every, you know, two, three weekends and I'm gonna write like a crazy person and then I'll come home and be with my family the rest of the time and it's gonna be perfect. And I did one weekend like that and it was awesome. And then I started doing a few more and they did not work out as well. And I realized that very quickly this was going to become a ridiculously expensive book to write. So I started thinking to myself, like, okay. And I was tracking this. It was by tracking my data during those sprints that I was able to figure out, okay, it seems like I'm being productive, but if I really calculate how many hours I'm spending here, it's not going to be sustainable for the long haul. So then I experimented again. I tried writing in my office, my home office. Apparently my home office is really great for working and for recording podcasts. It is not great for writing because when I'm in my work computer space, I feel like it's just too tempting to do non writing work. So that's when I came up with the idea. All right, now let me try this again. I'm going to go walk my son to school. He was in preschool. In the mornings I drop him off at preschool. I'd go to the Starbucks around the corner. I'd sit down with my little Teeny tiny laptop. I would not log into the Starbucks WI fi. And then I would sit down and write for three hours until I had to go pick him up from school. There were some days where I was, like, flying down the street, like, you know, running, I'm here. I'm here. Please don't leave my child on the street. Like, yes, I'm. I'm that delinquent mother. But I did it. And I realized that this was the system that worked for me. And so I think the thing with the practice element and the finding that system component of writing with focus, it has to do with two things. One, it's about what works for you. Because there are way too many people out there, especially in the writing space, who like to spout advice on, this is how I do my writing. And. And that's great. It works for them. But it's not a blanket statement that will apply to every single writer. And you have to test things out. By all means, if someone gives you a piece of advice and you think it might work, use that as your starting point. But then from there, you need to experiment and figure things out.

Yeah, I just wrote a blog post and it was 20 things that we had learned over the past five years. And one of the points that, or one of the things that I've learned is this concept of no other. This is like, I need to come up with a better catchphrase for it. But the idea is, know other people's paths, but walk your own. And the idea being, like, inform yourself on how other people are doing things. So as a writer, like, observe how do other people write and talk to other writers and learn about their process. But then don't say like, okay, and now I'm going to walk this exact same path as you because your path is going to be very different. So it's like observing how people get somewhere and what their path is, but then knowing that you need to then create your own path because that's what's going to work best for you. Not just carbon copy of what somebody else has.

Exactly. So the other components, just to sort of wrap up the creative output piece, one of them is find the second piece of it is the creativity piece. And there are a lot of different ways that you can come up with new ideas. I have a whole bunch of ways that I teach writers how to generate ideas. But the key thing is that you want to have, like, a go to stash of tools or techniques or things that can help inspire you. I actually have this, like, treasure box Next to my desk, I call it the Oracle. Because, you know, like, back. Yeah, like, you know, because back when the ancient Greeks needed inspiration, they'd go to the Oracle at Delphi. I go to my little Oracle box, and in it are a ton of different, like, random things I've collected that help inspire ideas. So I have, like, a stack of really weird postcards and, like, photos, like, really cryptic photography that help inspire stories.

Or.

I use dice a lot when I work because I find that when I get stuck, if I leave things to chance and I assign different options to the different numbers, it'll, like, force me to deal with whatever option comes up. And that's, you know, that forces me to think.

So, like, you roll the dice, and then one option is, like, record a podcast. Or. Or if one option is, like, write a short story on an Uber driver that gets caught in a scandalous affair.

Exactly. Or, I mean, a perfect example.

Or record a podcast about a scandalous Uber driver that gets caught in affairs.

And for listeners, if you wanted to try your hand at something random, like using a random idea, we actually created an app on diymfa.com called the Writer Igniter.

I have it pulled up right now.

Yeah, so it's like the slot machine thing. And that actually used to be a physical flip book I actually made, because in a past life, I was a graphic designer and a toy designer. So I made this little booklet, and I'd have the four different elements, and then I would just. Just flip the book open and let it land. And whatever those things were that popped up, that's what I would have to write. Or I'd do that also in classes when I had students. But the key here really is to have some place like a safe space that you can go to when you hit that moment of drought. Because while it's great to give yourself time to replenish the well and all of that, sometimes you're on a deadline, and sometimes you just have to produce something, and you can't. Like, I don't know about you, but I don't have time to stare at a blank screen. Like, I. If I need to produce something, I need to have a stash of ideas hidden away somewhere so I can produce on the spot.

That's great. And we won't jump into this, but you also had a great post called Setting the Mood for an Optimal Writing Session that I really thought was good. Even just reminders, like, one of the things is tap into the five senses. And there was a time, and I have gotten away from this, but where I'd like have a little candle on my desk and a cup of coffee and then it's such a small thing, but it influences then how you create. And I think it was a really good reminder. So we'll link to that in the show notes as well.

Absolutely. I actually had a playlist and like some writers get really nerdy and they have like playlists that are on the theme of their book. Mine was just like motivating music. But when I got so used to writing to that same playlist when I was writing the book, it started with the Lego song Everything is awesome. And so like the minute that song like turned on, it's like my brain snapped into writing mode. This stuff totally works.

I feel like it's one of those Pavlov is that oblivion response now. Like if you go to the movie now and you actually and you see it, then it'll like trigger you to just take out your computer and start working in the middle of the theater. You won't have a choice.

Yeah, seriously.

And we'll link to that. The writer igniter you call it, which is fun just to look at. And I just really like that idea of having this creative space that you can go to to be inspired. So one of the things kind of as a wrap up item that I really like about this idea of writing with focus or the creative eye output idea is, and this is a concept I've been thinking about too, but the idea of not viewing your work just as like sitting down and putting your head down and working, but also being observant of how you work, like and then changing and iterating on that in order to get to a more optimal place. So the work that you're producing is more efficient or like of higher value. And to not just assume that the old routine is the best routine. And I think that's a really good takeaway whether it's writing or just in general, like you said, creative output. I think that's great.

I would also add that whatever your medium is, whether it's food or writing, there are going to be certain elements that are kind of the core elements of the medium. So like in storytelling and writing, it's going to be knowing how to handle words and like playing with words and language. It's also going to mean character development and plot and story structure. It's going to be understanding sort of how to put a scene together with, you know, world building and setting and dialogue and description. Whatever those elements of craft are for your medium, you need to learn how to practice them again in a contained space. And I call this the petri dish technique, where, like, when writers get stuck on something, like, let's say I'm working with a writer and the dialogue is a mess in their story, if you try to fix the dialogue within the story, you could end up breaking it. Like, you could end up doing something to the dialogue that could end up messing up and the story kind of caves in on itself. So what I always suggest writers do is take the thing out that you need to work on, whether it's dialogue or description or a particular character, and put it in a petri dish, a contained space, and kind of practice that thing. Like, write a whole bunch of different, different scenes using dialogue or use different characters and like, put that same character and make them interact with like 10 different characters and practice sort of flexing that craft muscle. Then go back and put it back into the story and try to, like, apply it there. So I can almost think of this, like, on the food level, like, if there's an aspect of food blogging, whether it's photography or crafting your recipes or any other element of the food blogging. Food blogging process, how can. If you're struggling with it, how can you pull it out of that context and practice it in isolation so you can really make it sing?

It reminds me a little bit of when I was learning guitar. I had an instructor and he said if you mess up on something, don't practice the whole song. Go back and just practice that one specific part and then put it back into the song.

Yeah. I'm Suzuki trained violinist. I played violin for like 30 years. So that's where that came from.

Sure. Yeah. Same idea, same concept, a different creative endeavor.

Yeah, exactly.

Cool. All right, so this second area, read with purpose or this, this idea of ideas coming in. So what does it mean for to read? Let's focus on reading specifically, but we can expand that out. Like you said, what does it mean to read with purpose?

So a lot of people, you know, people are always saying, well, writers, you need to read, read, read, read. But they never tell writers how to do it. Or if they tell writers how to read, they do it by handing us a syllabus at the beginning of a semester and say, here, read these books and then write a big smart paper on it and sound intelligent. But they don't actually explain, A, the mechanics of how those books were selected and B, like, how to actually look at the text and pull. Now, I was blessed to go to a high school where literally the idea of picking apart language word by word was drilled into our brains. It was phenomenal. Like at age 14, we were reading Chaucer. We were, I remember my sophomore year, junior year in high school, we did a unit on Shakespeare sonnets where every single week we were assigned a 14 line poem and we were expected to write a 10 page paper on it. And we were expected to look up every single word in that poem except for and. And the. In the Oxford English Dictionary because we needed to know how the language operated in the time that Shakespeare wrote the poem. So I had this foundation before I went to college, before I went to grad school. And for me it was second nature. Like, I just would sit down and look at things and I, like, I remember in college we had to read this book that was like a thousand pages long and I did not have the patience to read it because it was so boring. And so the day that we had to discuss it in class, the teacher would say, crack open the book to page 725 and he'd start talking. And then literally in the time it took for me to read the page and then the two pages before and after it, I could then answer any question he asked. Because you learn what to look for in the text to be able to say, like, to be able to figure out what it means in that contained space. So reading with purpose takes basically three pieces to it. There's the ability to select the work to begin with to read the books that are going to help you. Because I mean, for writers, like, we love to read. I mean, I don't know about you, but like, as a writer, I love to read. I could read all day and like, still find things to read. But if you're going to read, in order to build your expertise and your knowledge and sort of grow your understanding of the literature you want to write, you have to be smart and selective about the books you choose because life's just not long enough. So having a system for choosing the right material to read and then also having a system for being able to dive into it and really pull out the important nuggets from each of the books. And that just takes practice. It's the same as like the writing with focus. Like, you kind of have to practice and then step back and see, like, okay, am I actually getting anything out of this reading experience? How can I adjust the way I read so I can get more out of it? So that you can be as efficient as possible and get the most out of every book you Read.

And it's interesting because usually we think of reading books to gather information about the subject of the book. But it sounds like what you're saying is reading books as a writer in order to get. In order to inform the writing that we're doing. Is that right?

Right, Exactly. I mean, the question that writers should always have at the forefront of their mind is how does the what the subject matter or the thing inform or support the why? So how does the way the author says whatever they're saying support the actual message or the sort of subtext that they're trying to convey?

Do you. Would that apply to. Would that be specifically with longer form content, like a novel or a short story?

It can be anything.

So do you have an example, let's say when you are writing a blog post for DIY mfa, maybe it's more on the informational end as opposed to the story end. Do you have an example of how you use that question to improve or use it as a filter, maybe for what you're writing or talking about?

Well, on the informational side, it's very easy because it's how does the what inform the why that you think about? What is it like, why are you writing this post? What's the game plan, the big purpose behind this post? Right. And then you sort of reverse engineer from that and you think, okay, how am I going to structure the information or how am I going to frame the context of this post so that it makes sense for people, so that they engage with it, so that they take from it what I want them to take from it?

Got it. And so in some ways, it's starting with the why or start with the end in mind and then say, what. What do I want people to get out of this? So how about if you. Not informational, what if it's more of like a post where you're telling a story and your. Your why is entertainment? How does that. How does that look different?

Well, I can share something. It's a bit. It's not quite as entertaining as it is personal, but back in the fall, I decided I was going to share something very, very personal with my website. And I' to share it here, if you like. So I have bipolar disorder. And it was something that I've toyed with sharing publicly for a long time, but I didn't know how I was going to do it. And I knew that if I was going to share it with my readers and with my word nerds, my audience, that it needed to be in a way that really meant Something. It couldn't be flippant. It couldn't just be, hey, guys, this is a thing. And it also. I didn't want it to be something where I was flogging myself or where it was going to turn into some big pity party. And I literally agonized about this for, like, a year, years even. And I even toyed with the idea of having a bipolar coming out of the bipolar closet party. Like, I'm not kidding, right?

Yeah, like, literally have people over and exactly, like, invitations and e card, e invites and.

Yeah, exactly, like. But I decided against it. And then back in November, the election happened. And in the writing sphere in particular, it was heavy. Like, people freaked out because a lot of the writing space tends to be in New York City. They tend to be very liberal. And even the ones who are more conservative were getting a lot of backlash from their liberal friends who were then maybe angry at them for not voting the way they wanted, wanted to, you know, like, all of that stuff. So there was a whole lot of melodrama going on. And I started writing these newsletters, and I didn't really know I was doing it at the time, but I started writing these newsletters just trying to, like, temper the climate that I knew a lot of my word nerds were facing. And at one point, I realized that, like, you know, and it was always in the back of my mind, okay, I need to share this thing. At some point. It's really weighing on me, me. And then I somehow I think I was watching the movie Frozen with my kids, and I realized all of a sudden that the story of Elsa in Frozen is kind of analogous to the experience of having a mental illness. This whole idea of trying to clamp down on your emotions, to try to, like, conceal, don't feel, and that whole thing, it all of a sudden just popped out at me. And then the fact that, like, at the end of the movie, spoiler alert. She, like, manages to control her ice powers by, you know, love. Love melts the frozen heart, that whole thing. And I realized that, like, this is so parallel, like, what I had always struggled with in sort of having the, like, the emotion. And then the fact that, like, it's not about clamping down, it's about embracing and loving the very thing that I'm fighting against, that suddenly everyone else in my space who was dealing with the result of this election was experiencing the same thing, because they were. Were trying to clamp down on their emotions. They were freaking out, they were angry. And yet the way to really be Able to handle it and accept it and deal with it was to extend compassion and love. So I wrote this long newsletter on that, and all of a sudden, it just, like, broke wide open and I shared my. My. The whole story. And. But that was an example of, like, I knew that I had this thing I needed to share, but I wasn't quite sure how I was going to make it resonate in a way that people would get. And then it was sort of a perfect storm of something timely happening that also coincided and sort of reflected what I had been wanting to share anyway. So I don't know if that makes.

Sense, but for sure, it's. And it's even just on the. It's interesting. It's. As a side tangent, just this idea of, like, leaning into kind of some of the personal stuff, and not necessarily where we started, but I think it's interesting as a creator and as somebody who publicly publishes content, just the decision to do that. And that's one of the things for Lindsey and I that we've talked about. She has her blog and she does more of the content. I have the podcast that I do as well. But just the idea of leaning into some of those personal things and being willing to. To share those. And I think the nuance that's interesting, or maybe it's not the nuance, but this idea of you knowing that you wanted to share this and you wanted to share it publicly. So that was kind of the. The why. And then it was. You knew what the why was, or maybe had kind of a general idea of it, but figuring out then the what, like, how does. How is that delivered? And what does that look like as you distribute that content or inform your audience or loop people in on it? And it sounds like for what. For you, it was this combination of the newsletter, the movie Frozen, and then the election all kind of coming in. That. What helping to support or inform the why is that?

Exactly. And I would also add, like, with the idea of leaning into the difficult stuff, that this is something that took me a very long time to be okay with. And so I just wanted to, like, say that and put that out there for listeners because. Because someone who maybe doesn't know me might think, oh, my God, she's like, you know, totally, like, sharing all this stuff. Like, I could never do that. Like, this is too hard. And I get it because, like, if you look back in the archives, and I always encourage people to go back and look at the archives at diy, mfa, look at those early posts, I'm really good at getting into professor mode and relying on being in my headspace because I don't want to deal with, like, the gushy emotions. And it's really only been in, like, the last year that I. I've been more open to allowing that vulnerability. So sort of be okay with where you are and kind of know that you can grow in whatever direction you need to for anyone who might be feeling that.

Yeah. So, again, this is a little bit of a tangent, but it's one that I'm interested in. So. DIY mfa. Obviously, it's a brand and it's a business, but it's also. There's a personal element to it. And I feel like in general, what's happening is that. That even big brands are needing to become more personal because of how we communicate online. Do you think, what are your thoughts on just vulnerability in general, whether it be writing or creative expression, especially as related to things online? And the question that I ask is because. The reason that I ask it is because I feel like it's becoming not necessarily more important, but it's becoming more commonplace. And I think people connect with people. And my favorite conversations aren't the ones about the weather, but are conversations about, like, how somebody's doing or the things that maybe it's the great successes or the great tragedies that they've experienced in their lives, but it's the really personal stuff. And then it's weird to transition that online, but I noticed. I notice a lot of creators or writers doing that. One of the writers that I follow, I don't know if you're familiar with James Altuchin, but he's kind of like the extreme of, you know, he just shares these, like, super extreme life stories that he. That he goes through. But I'm curious to know what your thoughts are with that in terms of personal elements being connected to the writing of maybe a brand or a blog or a business.

So I have so much to say on this because it's something that I've, you know, I've struggled with this. Again, you look back at the archives, and I was professor mode for a very long time at DIY mfa. It took me a long time to loosen up my language to be like, hey, hey, word nerds. Omg. Even just the sort of. And yes, I have been called out for sounding like a ditzy teenager sometime. And you know what? I love acting like a ditzy teenager. That's who I am. So I'm okay with it.

But.

But as far as the vulnerability Goes. I mean, it's a double edged sword. On one hand, it was hard for me to be able to take those initial steps and to be more vulnerable. But the more I did it and I received feedback from writers and especially in the podcast, like, I, I really started sharing things that were more personal in some of the podcast episodes because I felt like these were people I, I was speaking to. And it wasn't just, you know, there, there just feels like there's something more personal when you're listening to someone talk versus reading their words on a page. And for me as a writer, like, I know when I'm listening, when I'm writing, like I'm doctoring that up. Like that is crafted writing. So, and, and so I also come to other people's writing with that same lens. So I feel like it's more personal when I'm listening to someone speak. But on the flip side, I feel like there's an element. There are a lot of people who are using vulnerability and authenticity in quotes, like it's some sort of marketing plan. And that is not okay with me. Like, that was exactly what I did not want to do when I shared my story with my word nerds. I did not want it to be a shtick. I wanted it to be who I was and then just sort of put it out there and let it be what it was. Like, I didn't want it to become a thing or become like part of the brand or whatever. So it's, it's that fine line, right? Like you're constantly dancing because if you talk about something too much, then it does become part of the brand. And then you're starting to wonder like, well, will it be off brand if I don't talk about Yeti? And. And then you just make yourself go crazy.

Yeah. And the hard part with it is the overlap of, of personal and brand. Right. So like as those two things are, they're both separate, but they're both together. And so if you are being authentic, naturally that impacts the brand and it's hard to separate those things.

It's also interesting because I have screenshots of the DIY MFA website over the years. And it was, it was very recent, like 2014, 2015, when I started having my photo on the front page, like the homepage of the site. And if you look at the photo that's on the homepage of the site, it is no mistake that that photo is a picture of me holding a book in front of my face. Like, that is who my. That is the Brand. Like I don't want it to be all about me. And there are other people, you see other people in the marketing space and the online digital, you know, info product world who very much are cool with standing in the spotlight and like being on their homepage. I don't want DIY MFA to be all about me. Part. I think part of it is because I'm afraid that if it's all about me, then if I.

Everything relies on you.

Yeah. And there's something about it, like the longevity of it. Right. Like, I kind of feel like, you know, 100 years from now the brand could live on without me if I'm. If it's not all about me.

Yep, yep, that makes sense for sure. Interesting. Well, it was, it was something that I wanted to talk to you about because you got into it. And it's something that I think about quite a bit as it, as it pertains to building a business and a brand. And, and a lot of the people that listen to this are solopreneurs. So it's not like necessarily like they're trying to build, you know, target.com or Amazon.com they're building a blog where they talk about their lifestyle and their story. So appreciate you sharing that and yeah. Appreciate the vulnerability with that and the openness and I think that it's encouraging and good for other people to hear that as well. So appreciate that.

Well, thank you.

Yeah. Um, we. I have all this stuff that I want to talk to you about and I, and I want to try and fit it into a reasonable amount of time. So I'm going to keep pressing forward.

Okay.

The. Then I want to make sure to hit this next section here because I think it's important the idea of building your community and you kind of framed it as exchanging ideas between people or multiple people. Can you talk about why that's an important thing to do to build a community, whether online or in person?

Well, I mean, as a solopreneur or as a blogger or as a writer, you spend a lot of time alone staring at a computer screen. Like not a lot of human interaction and so can be really hard to like. Like it's very easy to get tunnel vision. Right. Because you're in the sort of echo chamber of your own mind. And so I think having outside, like being able to exchange ideas with like minded people is really important. But it's also important to find the right like minded people because getting input from people that are not helpful is not, is like, could be more detrimental than not getting Input at all.

Sure.

So finding, like, I think of input as coming in one of four categories, and I think of it in terms of the acronym casa because my family's from Brazil, so we, you know, casa. CASA is house in Brazil. And so C is the critique. So, like, people giving you the feedback or the input. Like, literally the people telling you this blog post needs to be like this format or like, your SEO is just not working here or whatever. Like, people giving you the nuts and bolts feedback. A is the accountability. Like, sometimes you just need people who are going to keep you on task. Ask. These days, my accountability, most of it comes from my readers and my listeners. Like, they're going to be annoyed if a podcast doesn't go live when it's supposed to go live, or they're going to be unhappy if I haven't sent a newsletter out in like, four weeks. So I have to, like, get this done. But in the beginning, the accountability might just be like having one or two blogger buddies who you work side by side with. I actually have a friend. We used to open up Skype and she's a writer. She lives in Philly. I live in New York. We'd open up Skype and then we'd both be sitting literally across Skype desk from each other in separate states and writing our, you know, doing our work and like it. But having that other person there sort of in the room, as it were, means that you're a lot less likely to check Facebook. You're a lot less likely to, like.

Goof around or get out or do the dishes. Exactly.

So and, you know, and I have a group of writers that occasionally will get together at like, a coffee shop and just sit side by side. When I was writing the book, I had a friend and we'd meet at that Starbucks every day. So having people who are there, sort of all their only job is to keep you accountable, not to, like, tell you if you're doing it right or wrong. They're just there to, like, make sure you do the work. The S is for the support. Those are the people who hold you up when you feel like you've been knocked down. And that is incredibly important. Like, someone. Sometimes you just need cheerleaders and it's okay to have something. Like, my mom is purely a cheerleader. Like, she will not offer me feedback and nor do I want feedback necessarily from her, but she is there if I'm feeling miserable about something, to pat me on the back and say, yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, I read your newsletter. It was Great. And then the last A is for having someone who's an advisor. Like, it's so important, I think, to have mentors and advisors and people who you can. Like, they could be someone that you literally can call up and ask for advice. And I have a few people like that in my life. But they can also be people that you don't necessarily know personally, but you can observe from afar. And that same analysis you do with the reading, you can kind of do that analysis by seeing how these people behave online and how they build their brands and how they craft their blog posts. And then you can try to kind of adapt some of those concepts. Like, I would never encourage writers to copy and paste. You do not want to be a copycat. But you can look at the process that these people are using and then see what elements of that you can adapt to your own process. And then you're owning it, you're making it your own, as opposed to, like, plagiarizing or something, for sure.

So it's interesting, when you, When I, when I would first look at Build you'd community, I would think, oh, you know, as an online content creator, you think of building your community kind of like your tribe, the people that follow you. But important, maybe even more so. But just as is this idea of building a community of people that are supporting you. And you kind of use this analogy of CASA and the people that are around you and supporting you in your content creation. Not necessarily the tribe of people that are following you online, but it's kind of that core group of people that are supporting you and what you're doing well.

And if you're in the blogging space too, like, I remember when I first started blogging, my friends were all like, all of my writer friends were fellow bloggers, and we're all sort of like friends and, like, followed each other's blogs and we kind of like rose up through the ranks together. In fact, one of the people who's on my team, she and I became friends because we followed each other's blogs, and then we realized we both lived in New York City and we started hanging out together. Like it. So having people who are kind of in the same boat as you, in some ways, you're kind of each other's audience, but you're also each other's support. And then. Because in the beginning, if you're just starting out, it's not like you're going to have, you know, hundreds of thousands of, you know, fans eventually, we hope, but in the beginning, maybe not.

Yeah, for sure. Cool. Well, thanks for jumping into those. That was really great to dive into kind of each one of those areas. Areas Writing with focus or this idea of creative output, reading with purpose, or the concept of ideas coming in and then building your community, that kind of group around you that's supporting you with what you do. I think all really important things, and like you said at the beginning, for any creative endeavor, it really applies. One of the things that I wanted to talk about kind of the. The ending topic, the big overarching idea of business and online business, and we won't be able to go super deep into it, but I wanted to know a couple things. One of the things that I wanted to ask you and make sure that we had time to talk about was what it's like for you as a creator. Right. So somebody who likes to write, who writes books, but also somebody who's building a business. And how do you both build the business while also continuing to do your craft? And I think that could be applied to people in the food space, whether. Whether it's cooking and developing recipes while they're starting to build a blog. Right. Because those are two very different things. So I'm curious for you as a writer, as a creator, how have you balanced that as you've gotten further along in your career?

It's funny that you say that they're different things, because to me, the two things are exactly the same. It's weird. When you were saying you're a creator, I was thinking, okay, what am I creating right now? Well, right now I'm working on creating or actually rebuilding a course, because after the DIY MFA book came out, I realized that our flagship course now needs to be updated to reflect the book. So that's still creation. It's just a different type of creation. It's not writing a book kind of writing, but it's writing content for the. You know, the course. And for me, I find all of those pieces equally exciting. I think the only piece of the business that really just kind of makes me want to cry is like, the balancing the books piece.

Yeah, for sure.

Like the, you know, filing my taxes.

Yes.

Like, even launching courses. I mean, launching is stressful, but it's also fun, and I end up meeting really great new students. So, like, even if during the process of the launch, I'm always kind of a basket case, like, it's still at the end. It's always really great. So in a way, it's like, I think if the two things are too far apart, then I. My Suggestion would be try to find ways to make them, them come together.

Yeah, for sure. And the other thing, when you, when you say balancing the books and stuff, is that something that you still do or do you have somebody that helps with that or what, what is your solution for that?

So I mean things like the day to day of paying the bills, that's what I do. But my husband helps me with the taxes and he's also a lawyer. So every time I'm worried about something that might have to do with legal stuff, I'm lucky enough to be able to say, hey honey, will this get me killed or sued or something?

You know, if it's killed or sued, that's kind of the two important factors, right?

Exactly. I'm like, you know, everything else I'm, I'm good. But no, but it's, it's very useful, I think, to have someone who can do that. But I would say that like I've learned a lot. Like the other day I was super excited. I wrote my own contract and I wrote it in non legal, easy language. I was proud of myself. And I showed it to hubby and he's like, this is actually a real contract. I was like, yes, I know. So I would say to people like, I know it kind of feels like this type of stuff can suck, but you actually, the more you do it, the better at it you'll get. And then the ability to look at a contract and be able to say, hey, wait, this is not going to work for me, and then be able to make those negotiations without having to call a lawyer every single time not only saves you money, but it also makes you, you feel like you're more in ownership with the business.

Yeah, it's interesting when you say kind of merging those things. I was reading an article about somebody that was doing, going through hiring and he talked about how he hated the hiring process, but he kind of tried to create a game out of it and realized like he really likes marketing. So what he did then is viewed the hiring process as marketing and kind of tried to merge those things as much as possible and it made it so much more enjoyable and it think that can be true for a lot of things that we do. There might be some things that like you just come to the fact and realization that you just really don't like them. Same for me with books and accounting and stuff like that. I'm really interested in numbers and how that applies to business, but I'm not super interested in like jumping into QuickBooks and balancing the books. So we hired somebody to do that that's able to come in and help. So I think there's kind of that merging and, or, or just totally passing off, there's kind of those two options for those different areas.

And I would say, I mean, there's definitely a lot that I delegate at this point, but you always want to know how to do the thing that you're delegating. At least know how to do it well enough so that you can make informed commentary on it being done. I mean, I'm in a lucky spot because I study graphic design. I was a toy designer back in the day. So, like, I can look at, like, I can manipulate my own illustrator files, etc. But even for people who don't have that background, like, you want to be able to look at what your web designer is doing or what your graphic designer is doing and be able to verbalize why it's not working for you. So even if it means just reading up a little bit, like go to Barnes Noble and get a book on basic graphic design, just so you know, kind of what the ideas are that can make you so much more informed and able to make make smart decisions, especially if you're hiring someone to do.

It for you, for sure. So, last question, specific to the business side of things, I'm just curious to know. You've been doing it for a while, you've been able to refine your craft as an online business owner. What are the things that you feel like are working especially well for you? And maybe people in the food space, or maybe not if they're not a food blogger recipe blog that could maybe apply or learn from, from the things that you've learned over the years as you've built your brand and your blog.

So what do you mean exactly?

Oh, I'm just curious to know, like, if you were to, let's say that you were to contrast where you started things and where you are now, and you were to say these are the things that we do now because we've realized that they work well, maybe it's content production or you've realized that courses are a successful thing for you. I guess the basic idea being like, if you were to start from scratch, if we were to kind of disassemble everything and you were to reassemble it, maybe in another niche, it wouldn't be in the writing niche, what would be the pieces that you'd be sure to assemble for that business?

That's so interesting. That's such an interesting question because in many ways the whole process of building this business. And like, I'm not saying this to sound like I knew what I was doing out of the gate. Cause I didn't. But I'm happy for all the mistakes I made, even the ones that were. That felt like failures at the time. Because for me, it's always been about the iterative process. So, like, my very first, the very first product that I launched was a tremendous failure. But it taught me so much about how to develop products and it also allowed me to connect with some massive influencers in the writing space that I would not. Not throw that away in a heartbeat. Like, I would totally do it the same way again. Maybe not the same exact way, but I'd still do that thing. And so I'd say, like, for me, my advice would be for writers, like, find what you. Or for bloggers, find the medium that. Or the media that you really feel at home in and master those and refine those first. And so what I mean is, for me, the two things that I think are sort of the superpowers at DIY mfa, one of them is the graphic element. The fact that because I know a lot about graphic design, I put together worksheets and I make charts and I do things for. Especially when I'm speaking and I'm giving, you know, talks at conferences. There's a very visual graphic element to everything that we create. And that is something that I really love to do. I just love being nerdy and mucking around in Illustrator. The other piece is I knew right away from the get go that I hate being on video and I love being on audio. So I know that I like to talk to my audience. So I wouldn't want to be writing all the time, but I know that I would want to shoot myself if I had to be on video on a regular basis. I'm just not one of those people. So kind of, I guess what I would. My advice would be, it's not so much what would I do, but more like, like advising people to find the things that they really feel like that's where their heart is and where their material shines the most. And then if there are things that your material, like, even if your material would be well suited, like, let's say you're a food blogger, but you're not really into photography, but you love graphic design. How can you reapply your content and adapt it to the media medium that really lets you shine as a creator?

Yeah, I think that's such good advice. And I think the issue sometimes can see. We see people having success in one way, shape or form. We think that's what we need to do. But in actuality, that person is experiencing that success because they have really leaned into whatever it is that they're good at, and that's what allows them to be successful in that medium. It's not the fact that it's the medium itself. It's that it's that skill that that person has. Yeah. Oh, that's great.

You know, last year I did this whole series on the storytelling superpower and a whole video series. But it kind of applies here. Like, you need to figure out what your superpower is as a blogger or as a creator. And then it's not about being limited and only playing safe, but it's about knowing what your strengths are and doing your darndest to operate as much as possible in that space. I mean, like, you know, you're not gonna. If you're Superman, you're not gonna go out and, like, hang Mountain of Kryptonite, you know, like, find the things that the places where you can really be awesome. And yes, if you need to do occasionally, like, occasionally I have to be on video, so then I've learned to sort of compensate for what I'm not as good at. And I've practiced being on video so I can be better at it. But having that safe zone where you can really shine will make you so much more confident in the areas where you maybe aren't as strong.

Mm, that's great. Uh, and I think it's really good advice to kind of wrap up this podcast episode on. But before we do, Gabriella, I want to know, where can people follow along with what you're doing? Obviously, we mentioned the site, but I know you have a podcast as well. You also have a starter kit course that people can go through to kind of learn a little bit more. But can you do a quick plug for the different areas where people can follow along with you?

Absolutely. Well, you'll find everything@diymfa.com, um, if you want to, the podcast is called DIY MFA Radio. You can find it on, on itunes, Google Play, Stitcher Radio, or if you go to diymfa.com podcast, it'll give you, like, the list of all of our podcast episodes up until now. And the starter kit, you can hop on over to diymfa.com join J O I N and that'll send you to a page where you can just sign on up and you'll get, like, a little mini course delivered via email.

Awesome. Gabriela, thanks so much for coming on the podcast today. Really, really fun to talk to you.

Thank you. This was such a blast. Thank you so much for having me.

And that's a wrap on this episode of the Food Blogger Pro Podcast. Thanks again for tuning in this week. We appreciate it so much and we hope that if writing isn't really your thing, that you got some helpful tips and tricks and strategies from this episode. I loved revisiting this episode. Like writing is just one of those things I just love to talk about, love to hear people talk about. And this is still just one of my favorite favorite episodes. We haven't asked in a while, but we would love to ask you to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts if you have a couple of extra minutes. It really helps the show get in front of more people, more listeners, more creatives, more bloggers. And it helps us out so much. Doing this podcast cast and sharing episodes with you each week is just one of our very favorite things about what we get to do at Food Blogger Pro. So we would really appreciate the support and the help that does it for us this week. And we hope to see you next week. We'll have a new episode for you on Tuesday, and until then, make it a great week.

Sam.