267: FBP Rewind - An Architect’s Journey to Becoming a Freelance Food Photographer with Ashley McLaughlin

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Hello. Hello and welcome to this episode of the Food Blogger Pro podcast. My name is Alexa and I would like to personally welcome you to the show today. Thank you so much for tuning in. Today is another FBP rewind episode and that's where we rewind back to one of our old episodes, one that's very popular with our listeners and one that's just full of timely advice. And in this episode, we are going to be revisiting our interview with Ashley McLaughlin from Edible Perspective. But her blog is actually not the focus of this episode, which is actually pretty unique for this podcast. Typically we focus on blogging, either the business of blogging or the actual act of blogging. But this is actually, this episode is actually focused on freelancing. And in this episode you'll learn all about Ashley's freelance photography business. So she will talk about how she switched to shooting in manual mode, what kind of gear she recommends for food photography, how she got into freelance photography for photographing cookbooks for other bloggers, and so much more. She's just a force to be reckoned with when it comes to food photography. And we know you'll love revisiting this episode with us. So without any further ado, let's rewind.

Ashley, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you so much for having me.

I'm really excited, yeah, excited to be talking to you today. So one of the things that I do with these interviews is I always take some time to obviously go through and gather some facts and some questions that I can ask. And I have a long list here for you. So I'm excited to jump into these. But one of the places that I love to start is at the beginning, or at least the beginning of this part of your story. And you have an interesting story in that your venture into food and eventually photography started out with buildings, or maybe it's not as simple as buildings, but architecture. So can you take us back there and talk a little bit about kind of the origin story of you starting out in architecture? Why did you start out in architecture? What was it that fascinated you about that and how did it eventually lead to this interest in food?

Yeah, I guess. Yeah, it's a crazy story. So I would say it probably started in sixth or seventh grade. For some reason I was really interested in architecture and kind of said that I wanted to do that. And I also for some reason was fascinated with baking and said I wanted to be a part time baker. So it's kind of funny how that, not that I'm a baker, but it's kind of evolved into food things. But yeah, I remember being interested in. My grandma would send me or get me subscriptions to Architectural Digest when most other people my age were reading, you know, teen magazines and stuff. Not to say I wasn't also doing.

That, but as well as reading architecture.

Magazines, which is pretty rare magazines. Yeah. So I actually went to into undergrad undecided just to kind of see what kind of, you know, different options and see what I really wanted to do. And it ended up that I did want to go into architecture and I went to Ohio State for my undergrad, so just kind of went through a rigorous four years of tons of studio and models and designing buildings.

And I remember I lived on the same floor with some people that were architecture majors. And it's so intense. I don't know if that's just a universal architecture schooling. You know, like the fact that they would have to stay up until like 5am before this project was due. And I remember just thinking, this is a super intense major. So is that. Apparently it's kind of a universal thing. Is that true?

Yeah, it really is. It's. It's. It can be a really taxing major. It. Yeah. When you say up till 5am that is no joke. It's like. And before your most important reviews, they're called reviews, and where you pin up your work and you're up there alone presenting with your model and your ideas behind you to students and your professors, and you're running on zero sleep for days. Like multiple days. And then you get torn to shreds. They rip your model apart.

That is what you've spent the last 72 hours straight working on. Um, I'm curious with that. So you're. And this is a little bit of a tangent, but it's just. I'd be. I'd be curious to know, when you're in the middle of that, do you find yourself at that point where you're thinking, okay, this is more intense than I thought it was. Maybe I'm not as interested as I thought I was. Or was it still like, this is what I'm super passionate about? Or did that little sliver view that was interested in baking start to grow a little bit? At this point you're like, maybe this food thing actually sounds better than staying up 72 hours in a row working on a model.

I never really thought I'd have a career in food. I mean, that was always just kind of funny, like a, you know, fun thing that I liked. And I feel like when I was in it. I never really wavered on, is there another major for me? I don't know. It was kind of. I was in it once I was in it, if that makes sense.

Yep, absolutely.

And, you know, I mean, obviously there were times where I absolutely hated it, but I don't think I ever really considered switching majors. Yeah.

So you stick it out and you get four years through and you graduate and you have a degree in architecture. But towards the end of that, you did something that kind of tied into that dual passion that you had as a middle school junior high student, the baking and the architecture. Right. So you have this fascination baking, you have this fascination architecture that still lived on. And your thesis for your architectural undergrad had to do with both of those subjects, is that right?

Well, so it was actually grad school, so, yeah. So after Ohio State, I worked for a year in Columbus, and then my now husband, we were still dating. We'd been together for a couple years. At that point, we moved to Charlotte, North Carolina, because I got really great opportunity for grad school down there at the University of North Carolina, Charlotte. So I got an assistantship. And so we were kind of deciding between Charlotte or Denver at the time. And the decision was easily made because I got this position that basically was free grad school, or we would go to Colorado and, you know, go into debt having to pay for grad school.

We'll take the free option.

Yes, exactly. And it ended up being so awesome, and we're glad we spent a couple years down there. And it was really a great experience. So it was kind of when I was there that the food interest started to peak more in my final year. So it was two years of school.

And what was it with that experience? What was it that started to pique the interest? Just happenstance. Started to become more interested in restaurants or certain person that you were following online or was it watching Food Network, like, what was it specifically that kind of piqued your interest?

Well, I started to get really. So, okay. I had two professors in particular that were extremely kind of like, think outside the box. It was a very artistic kind of architectural school. Not as much on, you know, kind of like the more technical engineering side, I would say. So they were always looking for people to kind of go in a different direction than just architecture. So once we kind of started talking about food, they were all about kind of making the connect, bringing in the connections. But I really started to get into kind of the slow food movement and, you know, reading Michael Pollan's books and kind Of I feel like that's kind of when all of that started to, you know, get more noticed. Which was probably, what was that, like 10 years ago now or something? Gosh, I can't believe that.

For those that aren't familiar. Familiar. I'm guessing most people are being that it's a food blogger pro podcast. But the slow food movement, can you explain a little bit about what that is?

Yeah, I mean, so it's basically kind of farm to table, just. Well, that's one aspect of it. And just kind of enjoying your food more. The process of cooking, like slowing down life, you know, taking really taking things in for what they are and kind of trying to get away from all the hustle and bustle.

The opposite of eating Chicken McNuggets in your car on your way to a meeting that you're late for.

Yes. It's like the dinner that lasts three hours, you know, and came from your backyard. Yes.

Got it.

Yeah.

So at this point, you're in grad school, you're still doing. Pursuing career in architecture, but then you kind of have this new passion that's rising up alongside of it.

Yeah.

And so you combine those two into writing a thesis about food and architecture. What is. I don't. Yeah, I'm so curious to know what that is. Like, how does that come together and.

What does that look like? Okay, so everyone is. And I love that people, you know, generally are like, how could you make those two correlate? But there are more correlations than you would think. And so, I mean, one big one is kind of creating a building is like creating recipe, obviously to a different extent or, you know, different way of going about it. But it's kind of, you know, you need things to work in special way in specific ways and for an outcome that is successful. And so that's kind of one aspect, but the one I really focus on, which is kind of, you know, when I was getting into the slow food and kind of Michael Pollan's readings and being more conscious about where food comes from and stuff, so I started to tie in the industrialization aspects of both food and architecture. So with architecture, building materials were starting to kind of go the cheaper route. It was all about quantity and less about quality. Well, the same things were happening with food and in the food world and, you know, everything was about convenience and all of those fresh, you know, farm grown foods were kind of going away and it was just more of the packaged process stuff that was kind of new and exciting and everything was cheaper and you know, it Tasted really good. And kind of the same thing with architecture. It was like, wow, this is really easy. It just snaps together, basically. And.

Yeah. And when. Normally, I think when people would think of the Industrial revolution, they would think of manufacturing of, like, hard goods. But it's also interesting to think about it, obviously, with architecture and then also food. It's that something that I've never thought of. So in this thesis, you're drawing these two passions together, food and architecture, and saying, hey, look at this time period. There's actually a lot of similarities in these two very different industries. Is that the kind of general idea?

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Interesting.

So, yeah. So kind of. And I kind of mentioned how my professors were really lenient with kind of there with the thesis approach. And you didn't even have to design an actual building, which I decided I didn't want a building. I designed an experience.

What was the. You designed?

Yeah, so. Well, it. Actually, I picked my site location as the High Line in New York City. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that. The High Line, meaning the railroad that was constructed and it's been renovated. It was vacated, I think, in. Or I forget when the last trains, like, ran on it. But it's one level up from the city.

Oh, sure.

And now they've totally renovated it as like a whole garden path experience. It's just crazy.

Yeah.

I'm pulling pictures.

It's super.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you should look at it, like, when it wasn't in use and it just had overgrown grasses and trees and all this stuff that had kind of started to overtake it. It's really beautiful. So I don't know. I can't remember how that site got chosen, but it was kind of when it was under construction. And so I made a couple trips to New York and just to kind of check it out and take a ton of photos so I could start modeling it and working on my presentation and everything. But so the experience was basically to create a path that kind of led you through this experience to teach you about food. And so it. But through architecture, through design. So while you're kind of going through this path, there would be kind of different food elements along the way and things that you could kind of like build a, you know, salad or smoothie, like, as you're moving through and kind of find your way. Yeah, through this path. And.

Yeah, so it's almost. It's a educational experience as well as a food experience. So it's teaching people about this idea of slow food and It's a little bit of. It's a little meta, because the process of doing that is also a slow, intentional process of going through it, taking your time.

Yeah.

Cool. So is it at this point that you're like, actually, this food thing is really interesting to me, or did that still take a while for you to develop that and kind of start to understand, like, your deep interest in that?

Yeah, it really did, because, I mean, I still never thought, oh, I'm gonna have a career in food, or, I mean, anything related. And it was just kind of. I loved that topic, and I, you know, kind of just expected it to sort of vanish when, you know, my architecture career started. But. Yeah. So after. So I graduated and worked in Charlotte for a year at an architecture firm, and that's kind of when the economy took a nosedive.

So this is 2008 ish time period.

Yes, exactly. Yep. So my husband, he's in civil engineering, and he was laid off in Charlotte, and there were layoffs at our company as well. And I luckily still had a job, but just was not super excited about what I was doing, which, I mean, I was grateful to have a job, but, you know, we still felt pretty young at the time, and we had wanted to live in Colorado, so we just kind of decided, let's move out there. And so that was the next step.

So you pack up your bags and say, hey, we're gonna. We're gonna go to Colorado, and you leave your job. And did you know what you were going to, other than a state that you love, which I love as well, Love Colorado. And I can see where the draw would be. Did you have something that, in terms of jobs or career that you knew you were gonna go to, or did you say, hey, we're gonna make this move, and we know that we're going to love this place. It's really important for us. And then we're going to kind of build around that.

Exactly. Yeah. We really didn't have anything lined up. We knew that we could live with Chris's brother and wife for a while, and so that kind of helped get us out there. And then we just kind of searched for jobs and there. I remember, gosh, I don't even know how many applications I sent out or, you know, my resume to different architecture firms. And I believe I had zero interviews in a year. And.

Yeah, and so this is obviously a hard time to get a job as well. 2008, 2009. And is. This is, you know, you go through the job application process, and for those of us that have been through it, you know that it can be kind of this long, drawn out thing, not always super exciting. Did you say, hey, I need something to be doing on the side here in order to keep me entertained and creative and to keep my kind of the working side of me going while I'm continuing to apply for these jobs?

Yep, that's exactly what happened.

Got it. And is that when you launched Edible Perspective?

It is, yes.

2008 ish time period, yeah. Okay, great. And when you launched that, what was your thinking behind it?

So, well, I forgot one thing that I did in Charlotte, which I should probably back up and talk about because it has to kind of. It intertwines with the whole food aspect. So I started a granola bar business when I lived in Charlotte.

Ask about that.

Grad school. Yeah. And so I started a granola bar business because I, you know, there were just no good granola bars on the market at the time. Now there are like a zillion. And so I just worked really hard on creating these granola bars. And at first I was just making them for, you know, family and friends, and then people were telling me I should start selling them. And so I actually got a business license and did everything I needed to do. And I had to actually cook out of our friend's condo because we had dogs. And in Charlotte, you could cook from home or you could make food in a home kitchen, but you couldn't have pets and it had to be inspected and everything. And so we had a friend who worked out of town a lot, and he was so generous and let me work make granola bars in his condo when he wasn't there.

That's awesome.

And I would store like 40 pound bags of oats in his closet. It was pretty crazy. And. Yeah, totally. And I. So I sold them once a week at farmers markets in Charlotte, and I'd be up, you know, packaging them and labeling them until 3am the night before the market. And it was pretty wild.

Can you talk about what you learned selling a physical food product? Because I think that there's probably a decent number of people that are either doing that right now or interested in doing it. And. And I would assume, much like many professions, that it's very different than what you would think it would be when you get into it.

Yeah. Um, I mean, I did everything. I would say I did everything backwards. Um, I didn't. It's not like I had a business plan and, you know, set it all up. It was kind of like, oh, I'LL start selling these. And then I kind of, you know. Yeah, like I said, I kind of did process. Yeah, right.

As you get into it, you look back and say, okay, how. How am I going to make this as a business?

Right. And, yeah, it was not. It's hard, I mean, to make money. You're by yourself. Even just granola bars is a lot of labor. And getting ready for one day at the farmer's market, which is like four or five hours, was so hard. You know, I had to. I remember, you know, ordering all the plastic bags and I had a heat sealer so I could seal them, and I had to design labels. And I mean, I did everything by myself. And it's tough, for sure.

Was that.

Yeah.

As you were doing it, did you get into it and say, actually, this is something that I think is too difficult to do, or did you get into it and realize, actually, this is something that I don't actually enjoy the process of? And what did. So the beginning stage makes sense. What did it look like kind of in the winding it down stage? And why did you decide to do that?

Right. So it kind of wound down because of our move to Colorado, but I. I probably would have kept it going and I was pretty gung ho about it. I mean, I think. I don't know what the longevity of it would have been if I, you know, staying in Charlotte or if I, you know, maybe would have gotten a small space or who knows, if I stayed in Charlotte, maybe I would have opened some little bakery or something like that. But when we moved to Colorado, you had to actually rent commercial kitchen space. And that was just not gonna happen at the time with, you know, not having jobs and whatnot. So I kind of just let that go and it felt right and it was fun while it lasted. I kind of did it for. I mean, I had the actual business probably for six or eight months and ended up breaking even at the end. So I call that a success.

Yeah, absolutely. And a huge learning opportunity. Like, you'll now have an awareness and insight into a business area that not many people do.

Yeah.

So you have these experiences both in architecture and food, and those kind of lead up to this moment where you make the move. And it's in 2008 ish time period. Not a great time to jump back into the job market. Architecture especially. Was that hit hard in kind of that. The dip. It seems like that's. I don't know a ton about the industry, but it seems like that reflects what with friends and just in general Kind of the industry trend that architecture would have been an area where there would have been a lot of cuts. And so I think that it would be hard to get a job. So you're there, you're looking for a job and there's this time period where you're like, I gotta stay creative and do things, create whether it's, you know, food or writing, and happen to start a blog. So what did that look like in terms of making that decision? And did you know from the start that it was something that you wanted to really invest in and kind of build a business around? Or was it more of the hobby side of things where you said, I just want to do something fun and creative as I'm looking for another job?

Yeah, it was definitely more the hobby aspect. And I even at the time, kind of the name Edible Perspective, I was still trying to kind of merge architecture and food with, you know, perspective of more in the architecture realm and edible, obviously food. So that's kind of where that name came from. And it was, you know, it's not like I started it. I wasn't talking about architecture or you know, I was talking about my day back then. It was like a journal. I was, you know, blogging what I ate in a day and all that.

Fun fact, which was, it's interesting to look back at that. It was a relatively common thing to do.

Yeah.

Where you would say and you get engagement and people following along saying, here's what I'm making and uh, here's what I had today. And. And it was, yeah, it makes a lot of sense. So starting it out kind of as a hobby, a way to stay creative. Uh, was there a point where you said, you know what? I think I'm actually kind of interested in investing more into this, whether that be time, energy. Um, and was there a point where you said, I think it makes more sense for me to go this route versus trying to find another job?

Yeah. So like I said, yeah, I applied for a ton of architecture jobs and really I was getting no bites. And my husband, he also couldn't find work too much in civil engineering. Same sort of thing kind of development just had halted at that time. So I was working some part time jobs and definitely hadn't given up on architecture at all. I was still hoping that that was going to turned into a career for me. But I was definitely kind of blogging full time even though I wasn't at the time. Definitely not making anything right away. And probably two or three years before we moved, my husband bought, I Call it like the fancy camera. So he bought a dslr, like a basic Canon dslr. And when he bought it, I was just like, how much did that cost? And you bought how many lenses? And, you know, okay.

You know, at the time, interested in photography, like, just like the idea of having a nice camera.

Yeah, exactly. He was really trying to get into photography, and I was like, okay, whatever. And like, I am not using that thing. There are too many buttons on it. I is not. Not happening. You know, and he's trying to show me some things. I'm like, okay, whatever. So we get to Colorado and like, where's that camera? Let me see what that's about. Because I was actually starting to get really interested in food photography just from looking at some different blogs at the time. And I remember Heidi 101 cookbooks. I really enjoyed her blog and photos at the time. And, like, maybe I can start taking photos of food that look better than, you know, flash photography with a pocket, whatever.

The point shoot.

Little digital camera. Yeah, point and shoot.

It's so funny to think about that, how common those were. Like, when people didn't have a camera on their phone, then you'd have a point and shoot. Like, you just carried that around you. So you get this camera and you start to get a little bit interested in it, and that kind of ties into your blog a little bit, and you start to invest more of your time and energy into the photography side. Can you talk a little bit about what that was like and how you went about the process of improving your photography when you're kind of in those beginning stages?

Yeah. So I definitely had some guidance from friends, and Chris knew a little bit about the camera, so he kind of gave me some basic tutorials, and he taught me a little bit about lightroom. And so I kind of got the basics down, you know, a little bit. And then just I was taking photos all the time because, like I said, I was kind of taking photos of meals that I was eating throughout the day. And so I was just starting to play with natural light and, yeah, just kind of learning how to use the camera. So I would say some things that helped early on was putting the camera in manual mode. Even though it was extremely confusing and hard at first, it really taught me how to use the camera and kind of how the functions work together to give you a photo that's properly exposed and, you know, with the right amount of bokeh in the background and all of that.

So. And let's pause on that real quick because I think there's probably some people that are listening that are familiar with manual, but they're maybe a little bit intimidated by it. So can you give some encouragement to those people and maybe some high level advice as to how somebody that wants to get a little bit more control of their photos can move into manual mode and why that's important?

Yeah, I mean, so it just gives you the most flexibility and it does seem scary, but I swear that it'll be, it's, it's easier. It ends up being easier. And just if you flip it in manual and you start playing around and you know your photo is too dark, you kind of start to figure out what you need to do to make it brighter. And so I kind of focus on the exposure meter on the camera and you know, you kind of aim.

Explain what that is.

Sure, yeah, it's just this little meter on the camera and you know, kind of reads on your display screen and there's a notch, well, there are a bunch of notches on the meter, but kind of there's a zero point basically that should be properly exposed. So if the notch is below the center line, you'll have an underexposed photo to some extent. You know, there may be a reason that you want it a little underexposed or looking darker, but for the majority you kind of want it in the center. And so if it's above the center, it might be overexposed, which means it's kind of harsh. Or the lighting could be really bright in one area and you know, you, you want it to kind of be that perfect in between.

Yeah, and that was, you know, I am remotely interested in photography. I don't do like, I take maybe 2% of the photos that Lindsey would in a typical day or week or year. But that was one of the things. Even for having been interested in photography for a while, it took me a while to realize, oh, there's this little meter thing that I can see in general, am I close to having the photo be correctly exposed? And so for those that aren't familiar, if you have the dslr like you said, it's those, a bunch of those little lines and then there's one that kind of tracks alongside of it. The idea is you kind of, it's like a, you know, a teeter totter, but it doesn't move like a teeter totter. But the idea being that you wanted to get it like perfectly in balance. You want to get it to the middle. So you were saying if you haven't switched to manual, switch to Manual and use that kind of as a starting point as a way to get your photo correctly exposed. Obviously, there's a lot of things that go into it with, you know, the shutter speed and ISO and aperture and all that stuff.

Do you know more than you think?

Well, I can say the terms. That's right. The important thing is just saying the buzz word and then like, okay, yeah, so other, other advice that you have for people that are in the beginning stages, maybe they just got a dslr, they haven't switched into manual mode yet. What are some other things that people could do to start to gain a little bit of confidence as they move forward with taking photos, especially in the beginning stages?

So I would say if you're, if you're kind of too nervous to throw it into manual mode, aperture is the best place. Aperture mode is the best place to start and use natural light. Don't use the flash on your camera. Find a window in your house or kind of a well lit room and just start playing around. Set up a little table. That's like at window height. It tends, like, if you shoot below window height, it could throw a pretty big shadow. It might not have the best lighting. So try and kind of at least.

Don'T put it too low below a window or a.

Right.

Okay. Got it.

Yeah. Or like, if you have sliding glass doors, that's a great option.

Okay. And for those that aren't familiar with aperture mode or aperture priority mode, can you explain the high level idea of what that is?

Yeah. So that is just you basically are changing the aperture on your camera, which is the amount of the photo that's in focus. And so that is what you can play with on the camera. And then the camera is adjusting the shutter speed to properly expose the photo. Oh, it gets confusing so fast.

It's hard to do on a podcast. Like, this is the ultimate podcast challenge is like explaining super technical things on a podcast interview. But idea being like you said. So there's all of these different things you can change with your. When you shoot. You know, there's ISO, like we said, there's shutter speed, there's. There's the aperture. But there's also settings on cameras where you can like just pick, hey, I don't want to change everything, which is what manual mode would be. But you can say, I just want to change one of these things. And what you're saying is aperture priority mode is a good place to start with that, where you change the. How much of it is in focus. And that's what you're the term that you used before was bokeh, which is one of my favorite words. But the idea of like how much of it is blurry in the background, essentially. Is that right?

Exactly.

Yep, got it. So if you're a little bit intimidated by manual mode, start out with aperture priority mode. It'll probably be that A on your camera, the dial, or you switch on your dslr. But from what I hear you saying, as quickly as possible, try and move into that manual mode because that's really where you have a lot of that flexibility and control over the look and feel of your photos.

Yeah, got it.

So one of the things I'm curious about is the type of camera that you use. I think people always like to talk about gear because it's kind of a fun thing to talk about. So what type of camera do you shoot with?

Right now I shoot with a Canon and it's the 5D Mark III.

Okay. And yeah, is that or what was the kind of the camera your camera story? Have you always shot with Canon and what were the ones that used before that?

Yeah, that's a great question because I did start out with a very basic DSLR entry level. And then you kind of, as soon as you start to really dive in, you start to realize, okay, I need a little more capability with my ISO, which kind of allows you to shoot in lower lit conditions. When you get a higher quality camera, it really helps smooth out the image quality. So it was. But I still, I used that entry level for years and then I moved up to the Canon 7D. And then the Mark III was exactly two years ago, right before I shot Angela Lyddon's second cookbook from Oshi Clothes.

Yeah. And I'm super excited to talk to you about some of those cookbooks. That'll be a good kind of next chunk to talk about because I know that I was looking through some of them and the photography is just so awesome with those and it's a huge accomplishment. So one of the questions that I have with camera bodies, I always hear people talk about this idea of like, hey, it's the more of the lens that matters than the camera body. But you made a really interesting point and said, actually there are some things that are important with the camera body. Can you kind of explain the idea of being able to like a more expensive camera body probably will allow you to take photos in lower light and why that's better? And then also you talked about this idea of kind of smoothing out the photo, like just general better photo quality. So is that something that, that you noticed as you bumped up the quality of your camera bodies?

Oh, for sure. So really, I mean, to me it is kind of the ISO is kind of the major noticeable thing. Like you can do really great video with the camera. I have, I don't do video. So, you know, that's not something I noticed. But it has a better image quality just in general, you know, as you bump up in the camera levels. But the capability of the ISO is just tenfold from kind of the camera I started out with. So for instance, on that camera, you know, you might have like the one I started out with, the basic Canon DSLR, I maybe had six options, six ISO options, maybe eight. And. But if you go over ISO 800, you start to really get a lot of noise in the background which just looks like little granular bits. It's just kind of not soft looking.

Like it just gives a little break a little bit. Not maybe pixelizes, maybe a little bit too strong, but yeah, noisy.

Yeah. Which I mean, sometimes is cool, but a lot of times it's not. So, yeah, bumped up to the 70 and there were quite a few more ISO options. And then. So. Okay, I just remembered the big difference between the 70 and the 5D and why I kind of made that jump is because the 5.5D is a full frame camera. And this is kind of getting into the nerdy kind of technical.

I think it's good for people to understand kind of the reasoning behind it. So can you explain what that means?

Yeah, so there's this thing called crop factor and I really don't know why it exists or why it isn't full frame on cheap, don't want to say cheaper, less expensive cameras. So basically you have a lens and it has a certain capability as far as like how much you can get in the frame.

Right. Yep.

Yeah. So but on the beginning, on the more beginner level cameras, there's a crop factor. It might be 1.6 or 1.4. I can't remember exactly. They can vary. And so you put the lens on, say you have like a 50 millimeter and you put it on a camera that's not a full frame. So it might take it down to like. Or yeah, it might kind of make it more like an 85 millimeter. So less. There's less frame there, if that makes sense.

Yeah, for sure. And I know exactly what you mean. Where it's like the technical side of why does this happen? It's like, you know, get into the weeds of the technicalities.

Of it.

But the basic idea being, I think how it works is like let's say you had a lower end Canon, like a maybe a Canon Rebel.

Exactly.

Then the sensor, like literally the thing that picks up on the photos is smaller. I think that's how it works. And then so, so it's, it what, whatever technique, technical reason behind that, what happens is that like if you put a, a lens like 100 millimeter or 50 millimeter lens on, there is some type of magnification that happens because of that sensor. And what you're saying is like with these full frame sensors, it's like the actual distance of the lens that you're putting it on which, which the distances they take that from like actual film camera, DSLRs, I think. So you're saying like if you put a 50 millimeter on now for your Canon 5D Mark III, it's actually going to be 50 millimeters as opposed to 85 or whatever it would be to be zoomed in, which I would assume with food photography is kind of nice because a lot of times you're going to be working with like 35 or 50 or a hundred millimeter cameras and if, or lenses and if you, if those are then zoomed up a lot more then that quickly becomes difficult to work with because it's not like you're standing back doing, you know, shooting a model. Like your model is macaroni and cheese. And so it's like you're going to be relatively close to it. So is that the reason why you were excited to go to a full frame was because you didn't have to deal with a crop sensor as well as the general quality?

Yeah. And yeah, so definitely the crop factor being a full frame camera just kind of giving you that true lens because the lenses do cost a lot and so it's like letting you use it for what its purpose is and then yeah, also the ISO capabilities. So with the Mark 3, I don't even know how many choices for ISO there are. A lot. And you can. So when you do get the higher quality camera, the ISO improves. So say, you know, on that Rebel XTI or whatever I had starting out, I could only go to ISO 800, you know, before you start to notice noise. On this Mark III, I can go to, you know, ISO 3200 before you start to see noise. So and when you're, when you raise your ISO a lot higher, it brightens your photo and so that allows you to shoot in lower lit conditions. So that's kind of the benefit of being able to really crank up your ISO if you need it. Yeah. And.

Yeah. And do you say, do you say ISO or ISO?

I say ISO, I guess. I don't know. You said ISO. And I'm like, no, roll with it.

And I want to call myself out on that because it's ISO. And then, and then I was like, but that's not right. But it's just this old habit that I have, which is the un. Buzzword of what I was saying before is like me discrediting myself by saying ISO. So that was really kind of you to not do the subtle correct of like, if you say somebody's name wrong and then they like repeat it back to you the right way. So you could have done that and you did.

So ISO.

Yeah, exactly. So I appreciate that. That's very kind of you. ISO, not ISO. Lindsay, I would say at least once every few months has to remind me about that. She's like, it's ISO. I was like, ah, shoot, you're right. It's a bj.

It's a lot easier to say too, than ISO.

Yeah, for sure, for sure.

I was kind of. I was having fun with it. So I, you know, I just glad.

That we could do that. Uh, so that makes sense. Great. So currently shooting with a 5D and then what are. What are your favorite lenses that you use?

I would say that the 35 millimeter prime lens rarely comes off my camera. And that is partially due to I shoot overhead a lot. And it allows you. That lens lets you kind of not have to be really far above the food to get everything you want in the photo. Whereas, like the 50mm, you have to be quite a bit higher to get the same amount in the frame. So the 35 is great. You have to be a little bit careful with it though, because when you're on the full frame and it is shooting the 35, the full 35 millimeters, it's starting to teeter on the edge of being a wide angle lens. And so if you're not perfectly like overhead or straight shooting straight on, you can get some skewing or like distortion. Yeah, yeah.

Where it will look like. Not like a fisheye lens, which is kind of the really extreme example of when you put a lens on and it looks like, you know, I guess that you're looking through a fish's eye, which I don't know if anybody knows what that looks like, but really distorted. But it has that potential, essentially.

Yeah. I mean, I can even see it when I'm shooting overhead. Sometimes. And it's not perfectly level. And so I have this little bubble level that I actually fit into the top spot of the camera where, like, if you have an external flash that you would clip that in. I have this little bubble level that I can't live with without.

Oh. So that's a little accessory that you attach, like $8. Okay. Normally where the flash would go where you hook it in the flash, but it's just a level. So you can make sure that your camera's level when you're shooting.

Yep.

Oh, that's cool. We'll have to link to that in the show notes after. We won't get the link from you now, but we'll grab that. So. Because I know a lot of people will be curious about that. So 35 usually. And then is that a 1.4 for the.

That's 1.4. Yeah. Yep. That's a 1.4 L. So I really. Once I started getting really big projects, I kind of stepped it up with the gear. I mean, you really kind of have to.

Yep. And the L's, essentially, I always. I don't know what it actually stands for, but with Canon, I always think of it as a luxury. Like, it's the really line of the. Of their lenses. So 35 millimeter 1.4 L and then use the 50 millimeter. I'm guessing that's the 1.4 as well.

That's a 1.2 L. Got it.

So. And then can you explain just really quickly, this will be the last in the weeds question, but when we say 1.4 or 1.2 for those that aren't familiar with what that number means, can you explain what that is?

Sure. So that's kind of that aperture number that we talked about before. And so that is what it allows you to. It's like the F stop and kind of. There are a couple of names for it and I don't know why. So that is the number that it lets you. This is so hard to explain without, like a diagram. I have such a visual problem.

Yeah. This is an exercise in communication.

Yes. So that number is what creates the bokeh in the background and how much is in focus in your photo. So as that number lowers, less is in focus.

So that bokeh or the blur you see, you have more of that.

Yeah. And so when you have a lens that goes that low, it just is giving you so many more options to take your photo into whatever direction you want. If you really just want this tiny part of the photo in focus. And everything else blurred. But so it allows that. But it also, as you lower the aperture, it also allows more light into your photo or your photo to be more lit. So that's kind of another way to play with, you know, if you have lower light and you can really crank that aperture down or. Yeah, it's.

Yeah, down, up, whatever it would be. The idea is you're opening it, you're opening it up, More light is allowed in. And in general.

But what you see gets smaller.

Yes. Yeah. And with lenses, usually what happens is that the more expensive a lens will be, the lower that number is, let's say 1.2 or 1.4, the more difficult it is to make that type of lens in terms of the quality of product and the glass that they have to put into it. And so what will happen is those will be more expensive lenses, resulting in better photos almost always, even if you're not using that super low aperture number. But it's just one of those considerations is that, okay, like, this stuff adds up very quickly in terms of costs and expenses. So that makes sense. We talk a little bit about the specifics of cameras, of photography. We got into the weeds a little bit, but I think people will get a lot out of that. And even if it's just revisiting some of that information for people that are already familiar with it, I think it's beneficial. So you're starting to pick up on photography, getting a better idea of it. And I'm going back to your story now, and at some point there comes a time when you're like, maybe it makes sense for me to actually go in this direction, that being the blog and photography and food photography versus continuing to try and find a job. So when did in architecture find a job in architecture? So when did that, that kind of fork in the path present itself to you and how did you go about making that decision and what did that look like?

Yeah, so it definitely took a while. We were in Denver for about a year and I was blogging and kind of, like I said, working. I worked at Whole Foods for a while, just working some odd jobs. And then my husband finally got a job in Fort Collins, which is about an hour north of Denver. So we ended up moving up there and still continuing the blog. I think at this time. Now I have ads running with food buzz, if people remember food buzz back in the day. So I'm starting to make a little bit of money, like I'm paying for groceries, basically. And so my husband has a job. And so we moved To Fort Collins, which is a much smaller town than Denver and still in the height of the economic downturn. And I think there are probably four firms for architecture in Fort Collins. So that was kind of like, this is probably not going to happen. So again, I just kind of continued to do work here and there. I did samples for one of my friends, food samples at Whole Foods for one of my friends. Food businesses love grown foods and, you know, just did random things to try and get a little extra income. And so the. But the blog started to pick up a little bit, so I was getting a little bit more money. And you know, just from gosh, I think I was at the time blogging every day practically. And yeah, so I guess now it was probably about three years in total after the blog started that I got an email about, you know, do you want to write a cookbook about gluten free donuts? And I had had to enter into the gluten free world when I realized that was better for my digestion and health. So I kind of get this email and it's kind of one of those, like, what, are you kidding me? And seemed pretty exciting at the time and to do my own photography and all of that. And so I kind of, I pursued that and wrote this donut cookbook with a million different baked gluten free donuts, which probably sounds awful, but I promise they're really delicious.

Yeah, for sure. And so this was published that came to you and said, hey, we have this idea for this specific niche. Wondering if you would be interested in developing the recipes as well as doing the photography for it.

Right. Yeah. And it was kind of like the best timing, like right when donuts were. It kind of was published right when donuts were starting to gain a ton of traction.

And what was that process like for you? Was it something that you would do again or do you. Do you chalk it up as kind of a learning experience that maybe you wouldn't be interested in doing again?

Yes, to both. It was a huge learning experience. I had three months to write it and photograph it and create all the recipes. And there were over 100, which it kind of is the same basic donut, but still to like have to churn out that many and, you know, test them and eat them and photograph them. So it was quite the process, for sure. And I did want to write another cookbook. I have a crazy passion for breakfast and I kind of tried to, or I did write a proposal and kind of talked to a couple agents, but just nothing ever came of that. So I kind of pushed that to the side. That was a couple years ago. And, yeah, kind of I'm just focusing more on photography now.

Yeah. And at that point, I'm guessing when the cookbook comes through, then you kind of make a decision and say, I'm not going to pursue the architecture stuff anymore. I'm going to focus in on this. Was that a hard decision to make, knowing that you had dedicated all this time to pursuing this degree and going through undergraduate and graduate school?

That's a really great question. And, you know, I kind of felt mixed emotions about it because, you know, I had this amazing education and was I just throwing it away, like, and where was this going to go? I mean, I had no idea. And I was still so new into the photography aspect. You know, am I going to be able to actually make money from this? And all of those things were running through my head, but I still really didn't have other options in architecture. Like, that just wasn't happening. So, you know, I just kind of decided to throw everything I had into trying to make a career out of this. And at that point, it was already, you know, four plus years into kind of being immersed in the food world and blogging. And I figured that if this didn't. If photography and, you know, blogging at the time didn't work out, that I could at least maybe get in with, you know, kind of doing social or marketing or something like that.

Yeah, you're still developing skills and abilities that could be used in other capacities. Yeah.

Yeah. And I realized too, that my degrees really both kind of led me to where I was. And if. Especially my grad degree, if I didn't have that, I mean, I don't know, I can just think about so many things that helped shape what I'm doing right now. And kind of my eye for photography and how I worked as, you know, architecture student, my design and stuff, I can definitely see parallels.

Yeah. It's one of the things that I love talking about and when it comes up on the podcast is how seemingly unrelated things in our past can actually have a really big role and impact on where we want to go or where we are. And I think that's a great example. Where people normally wouldn't tie together architecture and photography, especially food photography, but in reality, you learned things about, you know, structure and design and spatially arranging things and all of that stuff that impacts the photography side of things. So you go through this super intense process of publishing this cookbook and do 100 different recipes and photographs. In three months. At that point, are you completely burnt out on the photography side of things or do you say, actually this was something that I was interested in doing and I want to pursue more?

Yeah, I really started to get into the photography at that point, you know, and I have to make a joke about like that kind of in that time period was when I started stopped tilting my camera to take like angled. These like weird angle shots. I don't know if you guys remember.

Those, but like not, not centered, like the.

So like holding your camera and literally tilting it to the side to take this like angled, angled and camera angled shot of. Yeah. Really, really great stuff. Yeah. So I was definitely into photography at that point and really wanted to keep pursuing it and see if I could kind of make some sort of career out of it.

Sure. And so what did that look like? How did you go about making that decision? Obviously you had made that decision, but how did you move forward with that?

Very slowly. And you know, I say it now, it sounds like I was, you know, super confident and probably had a plan, but I didn't. Again, kind of like going back to my granola bar business. I do everything backwards and I am not the business type person. So kind of after the book happened, a company, food company, reached out to me and they were like, hey, we really like your photos. We were wondering if you could take product photos and some kind of lifestyle product shots of our bars. It's funny, it happened to be a bar company. And yeah, so it kind of started with that and I started to get little jobs from food companies.

Yeah. And so it starts out and you kind of, like you said, kind of back into it intentionally, knowing that you want to do it, but also not necessarily moving into it saying, this is for sure. I know the exact plan that I'm going to go about and implement with this. So how do you. What does that look like in terms of building that out as you go? Obviously you run into things like how much do I charge and what do I send a contract out and how did you go about figuring that stuff out? And any advice for people that are also interested in doing that?

Oh my gosh. It just makes me laugh because I had no idea what I was doing. And yeah, I mean, I have, you know, as of about a year and a half ago, I finally have a legit contract that I sent to lions. I mean, it's so hard. And you, you know, I'm at first barely making money and not making a lot. And so the thought of hiring a lawyer to make contract, and it's all so overwhelming, and I tend to kind of get paralyzed by those big things like that, and, you know, just want to focus on the work. But eventually you do have to get to them. So when I started, you really don't know how much to charge. And I didn't really even know where to start, but I just tried to ask some friends who were photographers, even people who did people photography, which I also ended up getting into at the time to help bring in more income because food at the time wasn't enough. So I was definitely spreading myself thin, which I don't recommend doing, and, you know, trying to come up with reasonable rates, but something that would make me look like a professional. And. Yeah, so it's definitely tricky. And I still. Every time a project comes in, I'm still talking to friends, trying to say, ask opinions and see, like, well, I charge this much for this job, and it's. It's hard.

Yeah. And maybe, if nothing else, it's a good reminder. Is that the. There's never the point where you're like, okay, I have it all figured out. Like, nobody has all that stuff figured out. And in same thing for us. It's like we're always trying to revise and think about, like, if sponsor content is an example, are we charging the right amount? Should we charge more? Should we charge less? What. What does that look like? So, but I think the point that you made about finding that circle of friends where you can ask those questions, or maybe it's some type of group online where you can, you know, feel comfortable asking, I think is a really great idea because it's people that get it, and then people that you'll be able to bounce ideas off of and get a better understanding of kind of where you're ending. So one of the things I want to get to, that we're coming to the end, but I want to hear about you're getting into some of these freelance projects you're shooting for companies, and then eventually there's this opportunity to shoot a cookbook for somebody else. And I want to hear what that was like and just talk about that experience a little bit, because that's such an awesome accomplishment and such a big deal.

Yeah, it was, I mean, a dream, to say the least of mine. It was always something that was like, wow, I wish I, you know, when I was starting out, it was like, I would love to photograph cookbooks. I seriously never thought it would become a reality. So I actually helped a friend photograph her cookbooks. Peas and thank you. My friend Sarah had a blog back in the day and she came out with two cookbooks. And so that kind of started it actually years back. And then, you know, I did do work for food companies and the freelance was picking up. And then just a couple years ago, which I can't believe it was even probably two and a half years ago now, Angela Lidden from oh she Glows, a very popular vegan blog. She emailed me. We had been good friends. We kind of started blogging at the same time. She had a granola bar business when I did. So we had a lot of fun connections and had always stayed in touch. And she emailed me and said that she was looking for a photographer for her next cookbook and that she didn't want to take that on. She wanted to on focus on the recipes. And I'm pretty sure I fell out of my chair and you know, like, couldn't talk for a day.

Yeah. That's awesome. And what was that experience like? I'm just curious to know. Shooting that. Yeah, curious to know what that was.

Like awesome and bonkers. And it was like so crazy because I shoot. So I don't know if you ever followed on Instagram or someone who's doing a cookbook shoot. A lot of times it's kind of like this onset. They're like in location and it's like a 10 day thing and they just bust it out and there's a ton of people helping. And so I've been shooting all the cookbooks at my house basically by myself. And so I am making all of the recipes and shooting them. And Angela had. There were well over 100 photos, I want to say around 120 or 30. And so it was chaos. And so amazing though. I loved it.

Yeah. And I think that's one of the things that we learn as we talk to more people that have done cookbooks. We've never done one, but just how common it is for that to be such a chaotic, stressful, intense time. And it seems like whether it's the photography or the recipes or the writing, it's. It's a pretty extreme in terms of work and the amount of work and deadline and pressure and all that stuff. But also fun, like you said, which is great.

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, it's kind of. It was a different level of pressure because you're not just taking these photos for your blog or even for another company. It was different. It was like you're taking them for this person who has. It's like Their cookbook, their baby, and you're taking the photos.

Yeah.

So it was a lot of pressure.

Well, that's so, so awesome. And I think that's a good note to end on. Obviously a really career high and something really cool. So we'll be sure to link to that in the show notes as well. There's even fun just on Amazon, you can kind of see the preview. So looking through that and checking out some of those photos was great. Uh, so last question, actually, I love to end with a question like this. So if you were to give advice to somebody that is just getting started out and wants to improve their photography, you talked about switching into manual mode, but what would. What would be one other piece of advice that you'd give to somebody who's kind of in that beginning stages or that beginning stage of starting to learn about photography?

Yeah. So I would just say to practice as much as you can, which sounds kind of lame, but it's so true. I mean, even if you're just using, you don't have to cook an elaborate meal. You can just use produce from the grocery store. You know, if you're into natural light, that's the kind of. I mean, easy and not easy because it is temperamental. But you don't have to worry about setting up a bunch of lighting. So, you know, find a window. If the light's too harsh, throw up a white sheet to kind of make it a little bit softer. You know, get a little table you can work with. You don't have to spend a lot, especially at first, you know, and just start playing and take a couple photos, bring them up on your computer, see what you like, you didn't like, and then, you know, take more photos and do the same thing. And if you have any friends who are photographers or, you know, food photographers, send the photos to your friends and ask for their thoughts and, you know, just kind of go from there, I guess.

Yeah, that's awesome. And it's time and intentional effort and experimentation, and I think that's such a good reminder of, like, it's. There's. Sometimes there's not a lot of tricks to the trade. It's just like setting up shop and doing it and spending time with it and not trying to rush through it. So I think that's a really good, really good reminder. Ashley, super fun to have you on the podcast today. Thanks so much for coming on and shared a lot of stuff in here. One of the things we didn't talk about, you have this great page on your blog all about food photography tips and advice, so we'll be sure to link to that as well. But thanks so much for coming on. Really appreciate it.

Yeah, thank you so much. This was a blast.

And that's a wrap on this FPP rewind episode of the Food bloggerpo podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in today. If you enjoyed this episode, we would love to hear about it. You can email us@podcastoodbloggerpro.com or you can check out the show notes for this episode@foodbloggerpro.com 267 and you can just leave us a comment. We would love to hear from you. Speaking of hearing from you, we actually have a new review of the podcast on Apple Podcasts. We are so excited and it says it's more than just food blogging tips. I've been listening to this podcast for a while. I love everything about it. Not just for my food blogging, but it also has such good business tips. It's thorough, in depth and very next level. Thank you so much for that review. We just love hearing from you. Regardless of how you reach out to us, whether it's an email or a comment or a review on Apple Podcasts, it just means the world to us. So thank you so, so much. And that does it for us this week. We will see you guys next week, next Tuesday and until then, make it a great week.