272: Create Your Own Room - Finding Balance with Les Alfred

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Hello. Hello, and welcome to the Food Blogger Pro Podcast. My name is Alexa, and we are so honored and thrilled to have you here listening to the show today. So I wanted to start out this episode by just saying I have goosebumps. So the way that I typically edit the podcast episodes is that I listen to the entire episode, make any edits that are needed, and then record the intro and the outro after that. So I just got done listening to this episode, and I definitely have goosebumps. So today we're talking to Les from Balance Black Girl, and it's really cool to be talking to her because I actually knew her way back in the day when she was a food blogger over at the Balance Berry, and just so much has happened, so much has changed for her, and she's really leaned into her Balance Black Girl brand and podcasts, and it's just very awesome to see. So in this episode, Bjork and Les cover quite a bit from leaning into discomfort and kind of thriving in being bold in your decisions. How she felt called to relay her message, how to get her audience involved and how to understand when things aren't working and how to make changes from there. It's a fantastic episode. I'm so excited for you to check it out. So I'm going to stop talking and I'm going to hand it over to Bjork. So without any further ado, Bjork, take it away.

Les, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you so much for having me. It's funny because I've listened to Food Blogger Pro a lot, and I'm so familiar with your voice. Like, I feel like your voice has been in my ears so many times that to talk to you, like, oh, now he's talking to me.

It's one of the great things about having a podcast. And speaking of podcasts, I just. I get giddy whenever I talk to somebody who also has a podcast, because it's like the minute we connect, it's like, you have a great mic, you're really well spoken. It just makes it so easy. But you didn't start with a podcast. It actually started with a food blog. And kind of the ironic thing about the Food Blogger Pro podcast today is we're gonna be talking about kind of your transition away from your food blog, which I think will be a really helpful conversation to have. But take us back to that beginning point when you said, hey, you know what? I think I want to start a food blog. What was going through your mind at that point and what led you to that Decision.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a fun journey. So I started my old blog, it was called the Balance berry back in 2014, which was actually something I went back and forth about for probably a good four years. I started getting really into reading blogs, and mainly recipe blogs, healthy living blogs, when I was in college, and honestly spent so much time reading blogs that finally I was like, why don't I do this? I'm good at cooking. I'm good at being creative. I can write. Like, why am I reading everyone else's blog when I could just start one? And so I did in 2014, and at the time, I really loved it. I was working in a very corporate, kind of stiff job that I didn't love. Kind of classic blogger scenario. It was a really great creative outlet that was a break from this kind of boring financing job that I had at the time. And the platform just really grew and evolved a lot over time.

What do you mean by that?

Yeah, so it started off with me sharing healthy recipes, and especially back then, 2014, 2015, I feel like the Internet was so different than it is now. The wellness space was so different than what it is now. So back then, it was all about taking foods that were not seen as healthy and then making a healthy version of them and talking about why doing that is so balanced. And I kind of cringe now because.

Sure. As we all do, as we look back on our past.

Exactly. Yeah. And over time, I actually realized, you know, it's not really about, like, the recipes or the food you're eating or the workouts you're doing, but so much more about your mind and your mindset. And so just during my years of creating content, I found myself drawn to so many different things from what I started with.

One of the things that's interesting when I look back at a blog post that you have on the Balance Berry, when you talk about this upcoming kind of evolution of what you're doing. The blog post is called a new chapter. And I think a lot of people can relate to this first sentence. And you said, ever since I created this space, I felt like I was throwing spaghetti at the wall, just trying to see what's going to stick. And nothing felt quite right. So one of the things that I think is interesting for us as creators is trying to know how long we should throw spaghetti at the wall before saying, maybe this is the wrong wall and that's why it's not sticking. How did you know when you got to the point? Or how do you know when you get to the Point for people in general where you're like, gosh, I think I need to shift. I think I need to pivot. Was there a point that you remember that happening in a really clear way?

I did. You know, what was interesting was that I knew for a very long time, probably like a year or two before I ended it and before I did pivot, that I didn't want to do the balance berry anymore, that I didn't want to talk about recipes, I didn't want to talk about workouts. But I thought, okay, I'll stop and I'll do something different when I have a better idea. Like, I was so afraid of clean. I was so afraid of letting go of what I'd built so far that the idea of walking away from it without having, you know, a backup plan terrified me.

Yeah, it's like the difference between shutting something down and kind of turning the creative energy into something else.

Yeah, exactly. And I realized that by clinging so hard to, you know, the old blog that I created, I actually didn't have space for a new idea to come to me because I was still so busy, you know, creating content and doing all of these things. I didn't have time to ideate anything else. And so it really started with me just taking a break, taking a break from blogging, taking a social media break. I think I took, like, a month or two off in 2018 and just completely unplugged for a bit. And then that was when I realized the pivot that I wanted to make. But it was a little scary to. You know, when you create something and it's your baby, they kind of let it go for a bit.

Do you have advice for people who are maybe thinking about doing that and are nervous in the same way to let go of that thing that they're working on, whether that be a food blog or a social media account or just a creative endeavor that they've been working on.

Yeah, I think a lot of it, at least from my perspective, it came from scarcity. I was afraid to lose people, lose an audience. But I realized if I built an audience once, I can do it again around something different or something better, and it can even be bigger and to not be limited by what you've seen or done so far.

Yeah. And in that process of making that decision, taking a step back, using kind of the creative space that you did have to process through ideas or brainstorm, was that structured, or was it kind of like, I just need to give myself space to think? What did that month or two look like when you stepped back.

Yeah, it was totally unstructured. Totally gave myself space to think. I think I had a vacation planned. I like went to Mexico for a week. I just totally just did a bunch of my favorite things that I purely just enjoyed and wasn't focused on converting or monetizing. Just what do I like, how do I feel when I'm just chilling and my best self and that's where the great ideas came from.

Yeah, it's interesting. I think of the times in my life where I don't have like I'm not sitting at a computer or I'm not hanging out with friends or family or essentially when I have space. And it's amazing. Those are the times and it makes sense where your mind starts to work in a different way than when it has a task in front of it. Like you gotta take photographs, you gotta write, you gotta do recipe development. Whatever it is, it's occupied by that. And when you allow yourself to step away from that, it occupies with some other thing, whatever that is that you're tasking it with. And it sounds like this time away from you allowed you to kind of task your mind with figuring out what the next step is and where you're going. And I'm curious to know, at what point did you know, hey, this is what I want to do? So you had the balance berry and you said, this isn't what it is. I'm going to step back, I'm going to do some creative thinking around what I do want to do. At what point did that idea become solidified enough to take the step forward? And how do you become confident enough to then step into that new reality as your next endeavor?

I love that question. It's funny because that time when I was making the transition from ending the balance Berry to creating balanced Black girl, I just feel like I took a series of actions that were just so not myself. They were kind of ballsy and bold and that's not how I would normally describe myself. Usually very like timid and kind of risk averse.

Where did that come from? Like, do you think it was? Were you aware of that at the time?

I mean, I was so I was in a place where I finally felt like, okay with Balance Black Girl. The idea came to me of what I wanted to create and how I wanted to serve people. And I thought if I don't do this, if I don't create this right now, someone else is going to and I'm going to feel like crap when I see somebody doing what it is I want to do. So I'm just going to jump in and do it.

Yeah. And. And so it sounds like there's enough motivation to say, you know what? I know that this is something that I want to exist in the world, and if somebody else puts it into the world, I'm going to be sad that I didn't do it. And that in and of itself was enough to kind of encourage you to take the next step and to jump into it. How about on the. How about on the passion side of it? You know, there's a section from this blog post where you talk about, like, hey, I creating recipes. I'll just read this here. I love cooking. This is probably awkward for you for me to read something back to you that you wrote, but I'll do my best job with it. I love cooking and creating recipes, but something about a food blogger didn't sit right. Working out is my jam. But training others led to burnout time and time again. Being a fitness influencer, you say I didn't feel like a good fit, but after reflecting and thinking through, like, what is a good fit for me, Balance Black Girl felt like a really good fit. How did you know that at the time? Or was it kind of like, I need to try this on and actually see if it's going to be a good fit?

Such a good question. You know, at that time, I. It's funny. It's kind of like taking me back. I just felt this burst of confidence in it that I never really felt before about anything. Like, even when I started the Balanced Berry, I kind of mentioned, I spent years reading other people's blogs. It took me, like, two years to finally talk myself into starting that blog. And when I wanted to create Balanced Black Girl, I was like, oh, this is it. I just didn't have a doubt. I was like, this is what I'm supposed to do. This is where I can put my gifts to help others. It just. I, like, didn't even have a doubt.

Yeah, I'm not going to do justice for the general concept because, number one, I haven't read the book, and number two, I don't remember the specifics, which is the worst for relaying a concept or a story. But Lindsay talks about this. There's a book called Big Magic, and I think it's in that book that she talks about this concept of the muse. And the muse is like this creative thing that visits you. And this is where it gets a little weird. But, like, I think it's interesting to think about or Even just to explore the idea of, like, this. This thing that visits you as, like, an idea, an inspiration. And in the book, she talks about, as Lindsay told me, the muse doesn't stay with you forever. If you don't. If you don't manifest that in the world and create that thing, it'll go to the next person and it'll visit somebody else. And it sounds kind of like. I'm not saying that that was the muse, but that idea is like, oh, this is something that is aligned, and it's a good fit for you, and it feels like it needs to exist in the world and you moved forward on it. So do you still feel that same thing now, getting into it, or is it kind of like. I've talked about this before. There's a graph called. From a book. Austin Kleon wrote a book about creativity, and it's called the Life of a Project, where it starts out as, like, super passionate, interested. This is going to be the best ever. And it's this graph of going down, down, down. And then there's this point where it's, like, the dark night of the soul where you're, like, in it and working on it, and it's really hard. Where is that for you right now, being that you're a few years into Balance Black Girl?

Such a good question, actually. And I think you relayed the message from Big Magic very well.

Okay. Have you read it?

I have, yes. And that's definitely how it felt.

I should have just asked. You can do a better job. Is that the general idea of the muse and visiting and, like, if you remember that part from the book.

Yeah, I think so. I mean, that's very similar to my interpretation of it, and it very much describes how I felt during this time as well. Yeah. Yeah.

So when you look at your. Your story as it relates to the. That idea of still being passionate and well aligned versus, like, oh, now I'm getting into it. There's a little bit of a grind in a similar way to other creative endeavors, but maybe the passion and the interest and the desires there in a way that wasn't.

Yes. I mean, I definitely reached a point, and it was probably about a year ago where I felt like, okay, I'm now a year into this pivot. I'm a year into podcasting, which I was still feeling very new at at the time, and it was for sure feeling like a grind. And. But I. I was also just getting this feedback from my audience about how much the content meant to them and how it was Having such a big impact on their lives, or women who are guests on my podcast saying after they were on the show, like, they started getting more business from people who listened. And I was just realizing that it was so much bigger than me, and I did have to really reprioritize what I was doing and start outsourcing so that it could be more sustainable to me. And once I started changing how I worked a bit, that passion definitely came back.

Can you talk about that? So that was about a year ago. How did you know you were at that point? And then what did you do to remedy that?

Yeah. So I think anytime we start something new, at least this is my experience. Maybe you can relate. You're excited to jump in and learn everything there is to learn about the new thing you're doing. Right. So when I started podcasting, everything related to podcasting was so exciting, so exciting to book all my guests myself, and it was so exciting to edit every episode myself. And then a year in, I'm like, oh, I'm actually a lot better at interviewing people than I am at editing conversations. And maybe I can let someone else do this so that I can only do the parts that are still really exciting to me.

Yeah. Do you. If you were to say what those are, what would those be for the podcast side of things?

The things that I like or the things that I outsource?

Well, both.

Yeah.

First, the things that you feel like are most well aligned for you, that you enjoy the most, and then the some things along the way that you've outsourced. Editing being one.

Yeah, definitely. So I would say for the things that I really love, I would say are the kind of strategy piece behind it. Planning content, mapping out content. I do. I'm also a content marketing manager by trade, so it's kind of just how my brain works. Planning out content and kind of the creative process, ideating. I also. I love the interview process, so I love researching guests and coming up with good questions and learning about who they are. And then the conversations that I have with them, I really love. I would say everything else outside of that, editing, scheduling, social media, all other things that aren't either like brainstorming ideas or getting to talk to people. I am very comfortable letting someone else take.

Yeah, man. I think that's so important. This idea of the core competency and for you as the person visioning the content that's to come and then actually executing on that by doing the interviews, if that's what you're good at, great. Like, love the idea of building as much as you can, people around you to support you so you don't get bogged down with whatever it might be that feels like it's something that bogs you down. I'm curious to know. Now, this is me selfishly asking, what does it look like for you on the planning and content calendar side of things as it relates to your podcast? Do you try and have like mini seasons or themes or storylines, or is it topical and you're trying to have conversations on what's happening as it relates to news and media? What advice would you have for podcasters, myself included, around building a journey, a podcast journey or story that's compelling and interesting?

Yeah, I love this question because I definitely nerd out about this stuff. I've found what works best for my show and my audience. I don't publish the show in seasons, but I kind of create and produce the show as if it's in seasons. So I usually batch about four to six episodes at a time, and then we kind of release them continuously and do each cycle kind of every other month or so. And I have four main kind of content pillars that I focus on for my content. So because it's all wellness focused, there are conversations around physical wellness, there's mental and emotional wellness, social wellness, which is like relationships, financial, health, things of that nature, and then there is spiritual wellness. And as I'm mapping out content, I'm looking for guests who can provide tools, resources, and meaningful conversation to align kind of with a specific bucket. And so then we map out kind of the batches of episodes that we produce so that we can have a representation from each of those areas for each kind of batch of episodes that we create.

And is there a tool that you use for that, like a CO schedule, or is it just in a doc that you're kind of brainstorming notes? What does that look like?

A little bit, kind of all of the above. I do use. I use airtable to manage my content calendar. And then it's also kind of a like a CRM for my guests. So whenever my guests book with me through my little scheduling link, they automatically get a record created in my air table, which I then assign to a certain episode. And I have like their photo, their bio, like all their info automatically.

Yeah. Can you talk about. Can you talk about what airtable is for those who aren't familiar?

Yeah, Airtable. It's kind of like a combination between a spreadsheet like Trello and Google Docs on steroids, and all in one place. It's like this magical spreadsheet tool that you can customize to keep track of just about anything. And it's really great for storing a lot of information, but in a very visual way. So it's if you have a lot of data that you're trying to store, but the idea of a plain spreadsheet kind of makes your eyes cross, you can use Airtable to track that data in a more visually appealing way.

Yeah, I feel like it's like a well branded spreadsheet. Yeah, we haven't used it a lot, but it is one of those tools that I feel like I would be a lot better if we did figure out ways to start to integrate that in because there's so much that it can do. And I know a lot of people use it in really smart ways to help kind of build out their processes. And then you had mentioned kind of using it as a CRM. Can you explain what a CRM is for people who aren't familiar? Because for a lot of creators we're used to and understand this idea of like, you know, our blog post has the main thing, but for you it's one of the ways that you create content is by your connections to people. And it sounds like that's an important part of the process for you. So can you talk about that a little bit and how you do that?

Yeah, definitely. So a CRM is basically like a contact records management system. So a lot of businesses will use it if they have say customers that they sell products directly to. That's where they'll keep track of all their sales to a specific customer. But I use it basically to keep track of the guests that I feature on my show to make sure I have their contact information up to date so that I know what episodes to reference if I'm resharing something on social media and to kind of keep my communications with them organized in one spot. So I would say for anybody who does have either a lot of clients or contacts or people kind of outside of their organization that they work with and they need all their contact information in one place, it's a good idea to have a system where you can easily access that information.

Yeah, that's great. I've even thought about that. Personally. I like we Lindsay and I moved last year and I thought, oh, I need to create like a little database for our neighbors. Like I want to remember our neighbors and their kids names. And so as much as possible, finding places to store that information is beneficial because one thing that I am learning is like how bad My brain is at storing those things. And especially if the connections you have are one of the most valuable things you have, which I think is true in life, but especially if you're doing podcast interviews and. And that's one of the main forms of content you have even more. So I'm curious to know, in getting into podcasting, what are the things that you were unexpected in regards to that as a medium of content? Because if you before were publishing blog posts and recipes, taking photographs, and then pivot to podcasting, that's a really big change in terms of what type of content you're creating. Is there anything that's surprised you about what it's like to produce a podcast and what goes into it and anything that you really love about it?

Ooh, love that question. I would say if there's anything that's probably surprised me the most, it's how much listeners feel very connected to you in a way that's very different from people who maybe read your blog or follow you on social media. And I think because conversation and voice, like, if your voice is literally in someone's ears, people feel so much more connected to you. And it's. It's just so much more engaging than anything I had created before. And I don't think I anticipated that. Even though I loved podcasts and I felt that way about people whose podcasts I listened to, I guess I just still didn't. I don't know, saw myself differently as far as, like, actually creating a podcast and the difference between creating the content, I mean, I think podcasting is. Is it's not easier by any means. I would say it is a little bit less curated depending on the style of your show and kind of depending on how you go about it. But you can just straight up flow in a conversation and things can kind of happen off the cuff versus, you know, with blogging. It was very much, you know, I have to take a million photos until I get the right shot. I have to edit it perfectly. I have to, you know, do all of these very curated things. And podcasting, I think, leaves so much more flexibility for being a little more real.

It's interesting for Lindsay and I because I think we both are really comfortable in different categories of content. Like, I love the idea of sitting down and not really knowing what I'm going to say for an hour, like maybe having a general outline of what that is. And I think for Lindsay, she's like, oh, I would just really not like that. But she's great at kind of that structured process of testing a recipe and developing that and photographing it and then creating content around it. But so when you reflect on your content journey, how do you. How did you understand one thing wasn't a good fit and then come to podcasting and say, like, hey, you know what this is? This is a good fit. Is it just generally how it felt when you were doing it and your ability to kind of do that for a long period of time, or were there other factors that were involved with that?

Yeah, I think how it felt is a big part of it. It's, you know, do you dread it or do you enjoy it? And so do you dread the idea of getting better or putting in the work to get better? Because if you do, might not be the thing.

Yes, it's such a good point that I think not many people think about, but do you want to be good at this thing? And I remember I had a conversation with a friend who was working on a blog. It was really early 2010. He's like, I realized I just really didn't like taking photographs. He's like, oh, this is a. This is an important piece of the puzzle. It's probably not good for you to be doing that. What other things do you think go into it?

I think also, too kind of, as we were just talking about, do you also enjoy the process? Because there's a very big difference between enjoying the process and enjoying the final results. I think especially as a content creator, whether that is a blogger or a podcaster, a blog post maybe takes five minutes to read, but takes takes hours to create. A podcast can take an hour to listen to, but hours of work went into that. Do you also enjoy at least having some involvement on. On the back end, outside of kind of the final result?

Yeah, totally. And then how about on the. On the. On the actual focus of the content side? You know, one of the things that I think is so cool when I read through that a new chapter post on your site, you talk about your wellness journey, and you say, been on a wellness journey for several years and have taken countless classes, been in numerous workshops, attended tons of meetings, but each time the same discomfort remained. I was often the only woman of color in the room. And it sounds like that was. Oh, and then I feel like this line that you say here and then you say, because so often there were so few, if any, women of color in those rooms with me, I decided to create my own room. Wow. What a great visual. So inspiring. How. How did you go through that process and what advice would you have for other people who are looking to create their own room. Because that can be, I would assume, kind of a scary thing.

Yeah, it can be. I remember I had felt that way for a really long time, and I would kind of go to these different wellness events with, like, bloggers and fitness influencers and be like, oh, my goodness, like, there's another room. It's not very diverse. Somebody should do something about that. Like, not at all thinking that maybe I should do something about just didn't occur to me until I started getting feedback from my audience. And it was actually when I had taken that break, that social media break that I mentioned earlier, I was getting messages from followers saying, hey, Les, I know you're taking a break, but when you're not posting, I actually don't see women who look like me in these wellness spaces. I'm not seeing this content from people. I can relate when you're not posting. So that's when I realized, oh, okay, maybe I can create a room and maybe people would join me. Or maybe people have been waiting for me to do that this whole time and I just didn't recognize it. But I think that the biggest thing for anyone who's maybe nervous about that is to remember that if you're feeling something, if you're feeling discomfort with something, you're probably not alone. There probably is other people who feel the same way who are maybe too afraid to speak up. And so. So if you're willing to speak up, you probably have more people supporting you than you think you do.

That's great. I remember a story that Jasmine on our team, who we work with, talked about, and she kind of relayed it as one of the reasons why she started her black food bloggers group was she talked about the lack of color in hands and pans videos, like hands and pans recipes videos. And that's always stood out to me as, like, such an obvious way that that's manifested in the world. And it's like, oh, my gosh, yes. Like, you can see that in a real visual way when you scroll through Instagram. So you have this decision, you have this moment where you're like, man, this is. This isn't right. Somebody should do something about it. And then it's kind of like this beat, and then you're like, whoa, maybe that person is me. How does it look like to start a new thing? I think that's one of the challenges with anything is starting something new. But it's also really challenging when you have something that you say, I'm Going to wind this other thing down and start up something new, maybe kind of related, but it's in a different category with a different focus. Do you bring some of your audience along to that? What did that process look like for you to create this new version of Less in this new community?

Such a good question. It was so scary. I was terrified. I thought that I was just going to lose everyone. Everyone who had kind of followed or engaged with me, outside of maybe the group of people who had given me that feedback that they feel I represent them. That wasn't a majority of my audience previously. And so I thought, okay, well, I'm just going to lose everything, and I'm just going to kind of start over. And it's scary, but I feel very convicted to relay this message. And so that was just kind of what I told myself was like, you know, I did it once, I can do it again, assuming that I would have to build from the ground up. And that's actually not what happened. I think, though, it is good if you are completely re pivoting to understand that that is a possibility. Like, I feel pretty lucky that that isn't what happened to me, but it could have. And I think part of why it went over well is because I knew that and didn't necessarily let it be a deal breaker.

What do you mean by that?

I think if I would have been too concerned about whether I keep a certain audience or keep followers or whatever, I still wouldn't have been authentic in my message and it just. It wouldn't have landed. And I think that boldness of that willingness of either, like, come along or. Or don't, but this is what we're doing. I think people were really able to. To resonate with that.

Yeah. One of the things that we talked about as we were kind of chatting a little bit before we press record was this idea of imposter syndrome. I think I've felt that in real ways that I can think back to. Like, the first time I ever press record on a food blogger pro podcast or podcast and video. Like, I literally remember being short of breath. It's like, it's just me in a room, but I'm like, what am I doing? Is this something that I should be doing or that it makes sense for me to be talking about? And you kind of talked about that just briefly as a part of your story, as you were thinking of kind of going into this new medium and this new focus. What did that look like for you? And then how did you move through that?

Such a Good question. I mean, I was felt super scared to jump into podcasting. Definitely felt a lot of imposter syndrome because I had no experience in it. I didn't know that many people who were doing it. I had no idea what I was doing. But I thought, okay, nobody fully knows what they're doing. Even people who are doing it now didn't always know they had to learn. And if they learned, you can learn.

Yeah. It's interesting when I look at, I was talking to a friend who works at. For a big e commerce company, and he was telling me about some of the things that they were struggling with. And like, it was essentially these systems that were Frankenstein together. And I was like, oh, my gosh, if that's happening at that huge company, it's almost inspiring to know that, like, it's happening to somebody else. And so it's okay if it's happening to me. Do you feel like you move through that? Like, was there a point where you. Is it kind of like, hey, I'm going to press record, I'm going to show up, I'm going to do it, and then eventually kind of that imposter syndrome goes away? Or do you feel like it's always there in some sense?

I think it is there in a lot of senses still. But I think the more you kind of do the thing, still even feeling it, you realize that even having that feeling doesn't have to be so limiting. When you still can have imposter syndrome and do the thing anyway and still have movement, you learn that imposter syndrome, you'll always feel it, but it doesn't have to stop you.

Yeah. So the idea being that, almost come to embrace it in a weird way, it kind of reminds me a little bit of the idea of the resistance, which we've talked about on and off on the podcast before. But the book the War of Art, and he talks about this idea of the resistance, and you feel that as a creator and it comes up against you. Is that a book that you've read? I feel like it's in same genre as Big Magic. Are you familiar with that?

I have heard of it, but I haven't read it yet.

So I was just nervous about doing another job of poorly communicating a concept that you could have communicated better. But the resistance is this thing, and he kind of talks about it in the same way as the Muse concept, where he believes it to be this real thing in the world, but it's essentially something that you feel that keeps you from doing the thing that you're trying to do. And he talks about it from a writer's perspective, but, like, it's sitting down to write and being like, how my desk is kind of out of order. I should clean that up. Or like, I'm going to do the dishes and then I'm going to do the work. Or, you know, it's checking social media instead of sitting down in writing or photographing or doing podcasts or whatever. And he talks about it as almost this thing where it's like, you got to embrace that because that means you're doing good work. When you come up against the resistance that's pushing you in another way, that's a sign that you're actually going in the right direction. But when it comes to the podcast, do you feel like you have that. Do you feel like you have an interview coming up and you feel a little bit of anticipation or that it's something that's continually hard to show up for, but, but, but yet you do it kind of.

It depends on the interview. I would say at the beginning of every interview that I do for the show, I'm always just kind of like, ooh, I got a little bit of butterflies. We'll see how this goes. And usually, you know, two minutes into the conversation, it's fine. But yeah, I definitely sometimes still feel this like, oh, what am I doing? I've actually. I normally will have just kind of a page of notes that I have for each interview just so that I can kind of keep track of what's going on. And I've started writing at the top of every interview page of notes. Before I interview somebody, I just write, you are so good at this. Anytime I doubt, girl, what are you doing? You don't know what you're doing. I just look down at that and it's a reminder of, like, you're good at this.

That's awesome. I'm curious to know the podcast in general. So for Balance Black Girl, would you say that it's a podcast forward kind of publishing that you do? Is that kind of the hub? I know you have a site that kind of supports it, but is that as you think about building that, is it building the podcast?

Yes. So. Well, I would say the podcast is kind of the hub. It's the center. And the conversations that I have on the podcast are the center. I am at a point where I'm starting to expand because, I mean, as you know, podcasts are amazing, but also when you're helping people do new things, a conversation on a podcast can only do so much. And so I'm starting to create other things, such as wellness offerings and workshops to kind of supplement conversations of the podcast. So it's like, hey, we talked about, you know, stress management on this episode of the podcast as a concept and as some tools and resources. But now we're going to have this class where we can really go deep into ways that you can actively manage stress in your life. So that the podcast is kind of always the center for the conversation and introducing new things, but finding new ways to help our community apply the concepts to their lives.

That's. That's awesome. And it kind of ties into one of the questions that I had that I'm always curious about is podcasting is this interesting medium where, you know, if you look at what you could. Downloads you could get on, like, or views you could get on a YouTube or Facebook video, or like, you know, page views you could get on a blog post, and you look at the potential for downloads on a podcast, those numbers are. Are smaller compared to the bigger reach of. Of some things that don't go as deep. But podcasts can go so deep, which is one of the things that's so interesting about them. But a unique thing to build from a business perspective in that it's, you know, you could do ads on podcasts, and that's one of the ways that a lot of people will create income from a podcast. But you kind of talked about a little bit. I'm curious to know, for you to inform other people who are maybe thinking about doing a podcast, building a podcast, obviously you have to get the audience first balanced. Black Girl has some awesome traction. 100 episodes, which is kind of fun to be at that, Mark. It's like you don't want to publish one for a while because it's clean. Nice, Mark. Exactly. 475 ratings, five stars. It's solidly in the, let's call it top 10, maybe 5% of podcasts. If you were to look at all the podcasts in the world. So you have that audience and you have that traction, which I want to ask about. But what are your kind of broad ideas around what it looks like to build in some of those business components around it? And asking for myself as well as other people who are kind of doing the podcast thing.

Yeah, I think podcasting is a really great way to kind of determine proof of concept. You know, like, if you can get somebody, somebody, thousands of people to spend an hour with you listening to you have a conversation, chances are they're probably going be really Interested in other things that you can do and offer as well. And yeah, I mean, I wholeheartedly agree with what you were saying about the numbers that, you know, podcasts don't necessarily have the reach that maybe YouTube or blogs do yet. I definitely think that's going to change. But the people who do listen are just like, they ride so hard.

Yeah, yeah.

Like they are so down. And just that level of engagement, that level of connection, I think can be a really great foundation. I think for folks who have businesses, it can be a really great way to build engagement for other aspects of their business. I think if you are trying to podcast and just have the podcast be your business, you can do that. It probably is going to take quite a bit of time to get enough traction where that can be kind of your only thing. But I think podcasting is still so new and it's still picking up steam in a lot of ways that there's so much opportunity we haven't even tapped into yet.

Yet. Yeah. What did it look like for you to build that in the early stages? You know, I think it's people who listen think about building their blog. Building a podcast seems like a really hard thing. And our. I'm even trying to think back when we first started, it was kind of like, hey, let's start a podcast. And then we like, would occasionally email about it. And then it's just been organic. Any growth which is not. Not super strategic. But were there things that you did early stages or things that you're doing now as you think about building that audience, that has. Has been helpful.

Yeah. I think so much of it is around conversation. I mean, podcasting is a, you know, very conversational platform where you're either having a conversation with the guest or, you know, whatever it is your format is, but remembering to invite your listeners into the conversation, ask them what they thought about it. I'm constantly ask people, like, leave a comment. If you listen to the last episode, what was your biggest takeaway? Because it gets people involved. And then when people do that, then they want to tag a friend of. Here was my takeaway from this episode. So. And so you should listen to this. And it. It is still kind of organic, but it. It brings the listener in with you so that you're not just talking at them.

Yes, totally. And they become a part of that community. And in some ways they enter that room with you. Like you are creating that room and welcoming people into it. It. As opposed to just kind of standing in and shouting out from it. It's Saying like, hey, come and be a part of this. Which I think is so cool and so inspiring. So how about, what would your advice be? Somebody's in the early stages. Well, let's say this. Somebody is doing something that they're not sure if it's the right fit for them. They've been working at it for a while and they're kind of in that same spot that you work, call it two years ago, where they're wondering if they know that they still want to pursue something creative to build a thing to create things in the world and put them into the world, but they're not sure what that is. Les, what would your encouragement be to those people who are in that place right now, knowing that you have gone through that and have come out the other side here successfully?

Yeah. I think it's important to know, even if you don't know what you want to do, get really clear on why what it is you're currently doing isn't working. Right. I think it's very easy to be like, something's off, I don't know what, but it's something. And it's like, you got to get clear on what that is. What is it that you don't like? Because I know for me, what I didn't like. I was tired of creating recipes and having to take photos of them when I had natural daylight. I was living in Seattle at the time and had no light and spending all of this money trying to create these recipes where if I created something that was kind of meh and it was just me, I'd be fine still eating it and I wouldn't care. And I was tired of creating workout videos all the time because it just made me physically tired. Like, I understood why I didn't want to do that thing anymore. And when I understood what wasn't working, I was way more able to understand what would work. But sometimes we just get so vague about what we don't want to do and then it's easy to stay vague about what you do want to do.

Yeah. It's almost like you're building some parameters or borders around your decision making process and if it's too wide open, it's like you don't really have a clear understanding of what that would be. But if you say it's not going to be this, it's not going to be this. And that can lead you to a place where you have a more clear understanding of what it will be.

Exactly.

Yeah. That's awesome. So how about this? We've talked a lot about kind of your story, your journey. We've talked about some of the things that you've learned Balanced Berry and Balanced Black Girl. But who, who are the people that you are talking to in your audience? Who are the people that can follow along with Balance Black Girl and where can they do that and follow along with you as well? And we'll link to all of these places in the show notes as well.

Yeah, definitely. So I am, I would say, most active on Instagram. I'm at Balanceless and Balanced Black Girl podcast. And with Balance Black Girl, the conversations are really featuring black women experts in wellness. But I would say anybody is welcome to listen and learn something from it. I mean, I know this year in 2020, there have been a lot of shifts and a lot of effort to spotlight different voices. And, you know, I have archives and archives of episodes of black women experts you can learn from who share incredible, incredible work. So Instagram, Balance Black Girl Podcast, and then we have new episodes of the podcast on all major podcasting platforms every other Tuesday.

Awesome. Would you have a couple episodes that you would highlight as, like, you know, if it was a Spotify playlist for an artist, the top, you know, ones that top songs that people should check out, they would surface. Do you have ones that you can think of off the top of your head that we could link to or that we could point people to right off the, right off the bat? It's kind of a hard question because even for myself, I'm thinking, I'm like, oh, what would that be? But any ones that you can think, yeah, definitely.

And I kind of cringe saying this because I'm like, oh, the early episodes, they probably don't sound as good. They're probably a little rough around the edges, but they do really set the stage for why I created the platform and why the platform is important. So I would say the first couple of episodes, I have one in particular called Wellness so White, where I talk about my experiences being a woman of color in the wellness space and why I felt it was so necessary to create Balance Black Girl. That was still one of the most listened to episodes because it does really set the stage for that conversation. So I would definitely, definitely recommend starting there because it really sets up kind of the rest of the show.

Awesome. And that's one of the earlier episodes. You don't remember the episode number?

I think it's episode two. I think it's episode two. Yeah.

That's awesome. Well, yeah, either way, we'll link to it in the show notes to make sure that people can check that out. Les, really great to connect, really great to talk to you. And thank you so much for sharing your story and thank you so much for doing good work in the world and creating things even when it's not easy and continually pressing forward and moving through some big challenges to create things in the world that are making a big difference. So appreciate you doing that on your podcast and also for coming on to this podcast as well.

Oh, thank you, Bjork. Thank you for having me. This was such a fun conversation, so I really appreciate it.

All right, great. Thanks Les.

Such a good episode, right? Thank you again so much for tuning into this episode. We hope you enjoyed it and we hope that you go and check out Les's podcast and her Instagram channels again. They're linked in the show notes. You can find the show notes for this episode@foodbloggerpro.com 272. If you have any thoughts, feedback, we'd love to hear them there in the show notes for the episode. Or like Les mentioned, if you want to share a screenshot of you listening to this episode to the podcast on Instagram, on Facebook and tag us, we are at FoodbloggerPro. Unless she is at Balance Sheet, Black Girl Podcast or Balance less, it would be awesome to see people listening to this episode out in the wild. That would be so great. And I just have a feeling that I'm going to refer back to this episode quite a bit coming from somebody who has definitely had their fair share of times where, like, I understand that something isn't working in this creative endeavor. Whether I'm writing a blog post or, you know, writing other things or photographing things, I know something isn't quite right, but I'm not sure what it is. And it's just really great to see and hear that Les kind of leaned into that and came out the other side with just this fantastic brand that is so aligned to what she wants to be doing and the message she wants to convey. So, so excited for Les. Les, if you're listening to this, you are awesome. Very excited for you and to our listeners, to you, we just appreciate you so much. We are just so thankful that you are part of the Foo Blogger Pro podcast community. And you are just such a big reason why we do what we do. So thank you again for tuning in. And that's all from us this week. We will see you next time next Tuesday. And until then, make it a great week.

Sat.