295: Writing and Developing Recipes - From Culinary School to Working in a Restaurant to Blogging with Leslie Jeon

Hello, hello, hello. York Ostrom here. I haven't done these intros for a while. I was having a conversation with Alexa and I was like, I feel like you have a lot on your plate. Is there something that I can do to help out? She's like, how about the intros and the outros for the podcast? I said, count me in. So I'm back. I'm officially introing my own podcast. It's good to be back in the intro slot. And now I can pass it off to myself, right? I can say, bjork, take it away. And then I take it away from myself. Excited about today's podcast? We're going to be talking to somebody on our team. Leslie is new to our team, and she has come on to support the incredible community of bloggers that we have over on Food Blogger Pro. We occasionally talk about the membership there, but not a lot. Not as much as we probably should. Uh, if you haven't checked it out, foodbloggerpro.com, it really is kind of the meat and potatoes, or the vegan meat and potatoes, if you are a vegan or vegetarian of Food Blogger Pro. It's where we have conversations with the community forum. It's where we produce video content. It's where we do live Q&As. And Leslie actually just created a course for Food Blogger Pro around the thing that we're going to be talking about today, which is writing recipes, how to write recipes really well, and also some recipe development. And as you'll see in this interview, she has a background in this. She's extremely credible. And not only is she able to give good advice, but she's able to say, I'm doing it myself. She's somebody who's in the mix day in and day out, not only from a retail perspective, where she talked about working in a bakery and what that process was like, but also from an online publishing perspective with her own site. Really excited to share the interview, Excited to be doing these intros again, and excited to pass it off to myself to do a little bit more of a deep dive with Leslie talking about her process for writing recipes. So here we go. Leslie, welcome to the podcast.

Hi. So happy to be here.

Wow, we're here. It seems like it was just yesterday we were using Zoom to do an interview, and now we're using Zoom to do a podcast. So super excited to have you as a part of the Food Blogger Pro team. You come with many different skills and abilities, and it's been great to have you in the forums and interacting with members. But you also have a background in recipe development, food culinary school. Like, it seems like the work that you're doing is a perfect fit. And you actually just released a course on Food Blogger Pro specifically about recipe development, writing recipes. More specifically, take us back to culinary school. What was that like? Where did you go and what was that experience like?

Yeah, first off, I'm just going to say it's very surreal to be here on the podcast because I told you in my interview that I've been listening to it for years. So to be on this side of it is just amazing. So thank you. But, yes, I recently joined the Food Blogger Pro team a few months ago. And then just to back up even more about my culinary school experience, so I actually attended the International Culinary center, which is here in New York City. There's a couple different big schools here, and that's one of the bigger ones. And I actually went at night, so, like the night course. And it was nine months. I was working my nine to five job. And then Monday, Wednesday, Friday, I would go in and bake everything from like 5 to 10pm it was a crazy year, year of my life. But it was really fun. We learned. I did pastry school in particular, so we learned the basics of French patisserie, so everything from cakes to macarons. And we even made our own wedding cakes and got graded on them. So that was fun.

When I say macaron, I say macaroon. Is that right? Is that how most people say it? How do most people say it?

So I think a lot of Americans say macaroon, but the French pronunciation is macaron. And macaroons with two O's are actually a different type of cookie, so it can cause some confusion.

Interesting. Okay. Uh, so this is why I'm not giving any advice in a course or on a podcast on writing recipes. Um, because I wouldn't have known that. So you, you went through this process every night you're going in five to 10 o' clock or Monday, Wednesday, Friday. Um, what was that? When you think back to that? Like, when I think of. In high school, I was a part of the pit band, so, like, played bass guitar. And I. And I remember, I. We would have these kind of similar practice sessions. You know, it would like from 5 to 8 or, you know, from. I don't remember the exact time, but it was like a really warm, cozy feeling. When I think back to that. When you think back to your nine months of doing culinary school, was it like, man, this is A grind. This is really hard. Or was it kind of this thought of like, oh, this is like this great experience and. And you know, you get to go and bake for five hours. But what is it like when you look back on it?

Yeah, it's kind of a mixture of both. Like, I really loved it and I've loved baking since I was younger, and that's when I really decided to kind of go full on into it. And so being there and getting to do it, like, day in and out was so fun. But I always describe it as. I kind of felt like I was actually on the Great British Bake Off. Have you ever watched that show?

I haven't, but all of our team always talks about it. I was like, we need to. We need to cue that up.

Oh, yeah, I love that show so much. Definitely recommend. But yeah, so we would learn how to make all different types of cakes and then at the end of it we would have a practical exam. So we'd have like three hours and they'd say, I need you to make like an entreme. I need you to make this type of cake and this and go. And I remember just like setting a timer on my phone, like running around grabbing ingredients, and it was just pushing.

People out of the way.

Yeah, it was insane. And like, I had so many things I had to remake and remake because I kept messing up. And so I don't miss that part of it. But all in all, it was a great experience.

That's awesome. Uh, I have a friend who grew up in the same hometown and he's gone on to do these really incredible restaurants. And Lindsay and I went one day and we were just sitting down. He came and talked to us and he was like, one of the things I didn't realize about owning a restaurant is like, it's actually. There's actually a lot of, like, paperwork. Like, I'm just kind of behind the scenes doing paperwork. Do you feel like there's anything kind of similar to that with culinary school, where you thought, like, gosh, I'm just going to be baking all the time. But actually there's a lot of additional, like, considerations that aren't just like, being in the kitchen and if so, what were those things?

For? Sure. Yeah. There was actually a big aspect to it was like, we had a big textbook and each week we had readings we had to do and learning. And a big part of it that I didn't realize for our exam is you actually for when you're doing like a large scale project, like for the wedding cake, for instance, I wrote out three pages straight of breaking down each item I had to make, what supplies I needed to make it. Which, when you have a restaurant, obviously you're writing down, we need to buy X pounds of flour, X pounds of sugar. Like, you have to plan out how much you're going to need to make it. And that involves a lot of deliberating, brainstorming, and getting it set in place before you even start baking.

Yeah. So when you think of where you were when you started and then where you were at the end, what was the. Do you feel like there was a transformation there? And what are the things that you didn't have when you started that you did have at the end? That would be worth pointing out as, like, hey, these are valuable skills. Uh, and for people listening, here's how you could either just, like, really quickly understand this as a valuable skill. Like, well, you always got to test a certain amount of times or something that if it's not something people could learn really quick, like, what are the things that people should be focusing on to get better at? You know, in your case, it was baking, but even, like, writing recipes and kind of leveling up as a pro as it relates to being somebody who is a creator of food product.

Yeah, for sure. I'd say for me, the biggest takeaway that I had was so before going into culinary school, I was just a, like, home baker. I was doing it for fun, but there were a lot of different things I'd never tried making. Like, so for baking, for instance, you can make pot, a choux, or, like, eclairs or macarons, like, things like that that I'd never tried, just because the technique involved in it is so complicated. And so a lot of it actually, for baking in particular, is like, baking science. And a lot of people don't know that. So I guess my recommendation would be, if you're going to start to try and, like, master baking at home, it's to, like, look into the science of it, really start to learn how things work. And it applies for cooking as well. There's lots of different reactions that are happening in the oven and the stove. And so I think that was one of my biggest takeaways, was learning all of that and just gaining confidence. Like, the more you bake something, the better you're going to get at it or cook something, and you're just going to, like, develop those skills over time.

Yeah. And part of it is kind of like the pressure cooker of, hey, you have to make this here's the time you have, and it's maybe not something you'd usually make. And the more times that you're in those uncomfortable situations, the more those are then just kind of comfortable later on. It's like exposure therapy to new ideas and concepts and kind of pushing you into new areas. But one of the things that is interesting, you talk about this in the course that you did on Food Blogger Pro is just like, the science of things. And you hear that a lot. Like, baking is a science, cooking is an art. I feel like it's maybe comparable to music, where there are some people who just, like, play by ear and they can hear music and they can know what song it is, and they don't maybe know music theory very well. But I feel like the ultimate unlock is if somebody knows both music theory and can play by ear. And so then they have this, like, really deep understanding of how chords play together and what chords would fit in a family for, you know, if you're writing a song, um, but then can also just naturally kind of understand it by playing for a long time. It feels like the same could. Could apply for recipe development or, you know, for people who are trying to get better at baking or even cooking. Um, do you feel like, do you have to be one or the other? Can. Can you be a little bit of both of those things? And I'm curious for you where you'd put yourself. You know, are you kind of leaning towards science, or do you feel like it's a little bit of a mix of both?

Yeah, I think it's a mix of both. And something I mentioned in the course is that when I first started developing my own recipes, I honestly had no idea what to do. And I remember, like, actually going on Google and typing, like, how to write recipes. And I was like, what are you supposed to do? Like, how are you supposed to know what flavors pair well? Or if you don't know the science, how are you supposed to know, like, what percentage of flour you should have in cookies or things like that? And so for me, I think as I've developed that skill and done it over time, I've gotten better. But for me, a lot of it still is the science side, like, understanding why things work, what culinary ratios are, and things like that. And so it's kind of developing a balance between the two.

Yeah. Can you talk about, you know, one of the things that you had mentioned was the. The ratios and different places where you can find information about that, like, resources for people who are like, hey, you Know, in the US we're always writing in volume, so it's like a cup of. But it's like a cup of flour if you smash it in, is like a different than a cup of flour if you, like, are sprinkling it in. And so, like many things in the US System of, like, ways of doing things, it's like, not the great way, whether it's like measuring distance or measuring food, but there's a resource that you shared that that actually allows you to kind of convert those over. So. Interested to hear that. And then what would your recommendation be for writing recipes? Do you pick one or the other? Like, you know, volume or weight or how do you go about doing that?

Yeah, it's such a cool topic. And I actually posted a new blog post on the Food Blogger Pro blog about this topic, so we can link that in the show notes describing it. But in general, I recommend including both weight and volume measurements because like you said, here in the US Most people use volume, but across the world and elsewhere, they only use weight. So that's things like grams or ounces. And so I think if you include both on your blog with your recipes, you're accounting for all those different people. And anyone can make your recipes. And so there's different ways you could do it. You could buy yourself a kitchen scale, which I always recommend, and actually weigh out all of the ingredients and then record that. But then there's also online resources like King Arthur Flour, they have an online ingredient weight chart where you could type in, like, honey, and it would tell you, one tablespoon of honey equals 15 grams or something like that. I don't. I don't think that's right.

But you haven't downloaded the conversions into your brain yet. That's stage two. Yeah, that's stage two.

There's some that I know, but not all.

That's great. And I love the idea of including both of those. So, you know, when you, when you are writing it out, it's like, hey, great, allow people to pick which one that they want to. Which one do they want to focus on? Another thing that you mentioned that was kind of cool. And I actually, as I was going through the course, this is a course on FoodBlocker Pro that I need to get educated on. So I was going through it. You mentioned a book that talks about is kind of a reference bible, so to speak, of different flavors, literally called the Flavor Bible. I was like, oh, my gosh, that's awesome. And just bought it, you know, 15 minutes ago. And. Oh, nice Lindsay. Lindsay probably won't listen to this podcast. It'll be a surprise for her when. When I give it to her. But can you talk about that? What. What that book is and how people would use that and why it's helpful for people who are writing and developing recipes?

For sure, yeah. So that book. So little more backtracking. After I graduated from culinary school, I worked in a restaurant for a year, and that book was one of the books that our pastry chef had, and she referenced it every time she was developing recipes for the restaurant. And so when we would have slow nights, like Sunday night, you'd have, like, 40 covers. That's, like, the number of people that come through whenever it was slow and you're waiting on tickets, I would literally comb through that book and read through it just to get ideas. But, yeah, like you mentioned, that one is called the Flavor Bible, and it's essentially the encyclopedia for all ingredients. And so it's broken down A to Z. So, like, it'll tell you apples, and then it'll tell you every other ingredient that apple pairs well with in dishes. So, like caramel or cinnamon, and it kind of takes the guesswork out for you. So if you're developing an apple recipe for your blog, you can know, like, offhand exactly what ingredients to pair it. Well, if you're not just guessing and trying a thousand times to find something.

That works, that's really cool. So do you have an example of how you would use that? Like, if you're thinking about a recipe, you're writing it out, you maybe have, or in the development stage of it, are you being like, hey, I know fall's coming up. I know that I want to do muffins and want those muffins to have apple, like, and then do you reference then the Flavor Bible and see, like, hey, what are the things that I could potentially put in here that would be complementary to apple muffin or apples? I suppose.

Yeah, that's exactly the process. I was actually doing it for my own blog. I was looking for upcoming spring recipes. So I was looking at which fruits are in season in spring. And then, like, rhubarb, for instance, I'm like, oh, I want to do a rhubarb dessert, but I don't really know what to pair with it. So that's when I pull the book out and look at ideas. And then that's when you start getting in the kitchen and experimenting and just what you like.

What was it for rhubarb? What did they say?

Oh, for rhubarb I know rhubarb pairs well with strawberry. You could do like a strawberry dessert with that. Other ones, I honestly haven't baked with rhubarb as much, so that's something I need to learn more.

I feel like is rhubarb is one of those things where I feel like every grandparent I knew, like our grandparents or any of my friends grandparents, always had rhubarb in the backyard. It was like this weird. Maybe it's a Minnesota thing, but it's like the ultimate kind of random thing in your. And like, nothing else usually. Like, it was like people would have, like, three rhubarb plants growing. Um, so we'd always have different rhubarb, like jams and things like that. So that'll be the first place I go to when I get the flavor Bible. Um, one of the things that you talked about was standardizing recipes and just how important that is, or standardized recipes. You know, obviously it makes a lot of sense in the. In the restaurant world, which is kind of interesting to me. But what does that look like for somebody who's a creator, who's a blogger, who wants to make sure that the recipes that they're writing out and communicating are standardized and are structured in a way where, like, people know how to navigate them and it's not, you know, kind of their own unique way of communicating a recipe, which isn't bad. But, like, for the most part, you want to communicate things in a way that people understand it and can navigate it. So what does that look like to standardize recipes?

Yeah. So if you go into a kitchen, for instance, or like a restaurant, they have to write the recipes as standardized recipes, like you said, because it's not just one person making it. Like, the chef writes the recipe, but then all the cooks are making it every single day. And if you aren't writing it in a specific way, people aren't going to end up with the same lasagna that the chef made. And so when you're writing a standardized recipe, there's lots of components to it. And so a couple of them include, like, you need to write the ingredients in the order that they're used. So, like, if you're going to make a bread recipe and you're adding the eggs in, the eggs should be actually, like, in the instructions in the order. Otherwise you're searching around for where to add them. You always need to specify the exact amount. You can't just have eggs as an ingredient and not, say, two eggs. You have to specify that you should Always tell exactly what kind of equipment to use. If you should be using a medium saucepan or a large one, that's always helpful. And just really being as specific as possible with the instructions and the steps. You don't want there to be any guessing on the part of the person making the recipe. They should know exactly what to do.

Do you feel like the chefs that you worked with or, you know, when you were working at the restaurant, were they really good at writing out recipes, or are there some people who are, like, not very good at it, and then they have people they work with who are good at it? I'm curious to know your experience with that and what that looked like in the restaurant world.

Yeah, it's such a thing that varies. I think some people are really good at it, and I'll just describe the process. So when I was there, we had a couple different pastry chefs. And in general, their process would be, like, they'd be testing a recipe for several weeks, and at that point, they'd just be, like, scribbling everything down in their notebook, and they would have different iterations of that. And then when they finalize the recipe, they take all the notes and they go and type it up on the computer, and that's when they print it out. And then we put it into, like, a binder where all the cooks could make it. But there were definitely times when they would forget to write a step or an ingredient, and we'd have to go back and be like, hey, what did you mean for this? And add it in. Like, literally scribble it back in.

Yeah.

So I think the more you do it, the better you get at it. But the same thing will happen with your blog. If you forget to write, like, where to add the salt in the instructions, you're going to have readers commenting, asking, hey, where does the salt go? And you'll learn to be careful, more careful for that over time, I think.

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. On Pinch of Yam, every once in a while we have a. There's a channel, and questions will come up with, like, hey, this just came out. Like, I'm trying to think of an example. Like, you. You said, like, add the butter here, but, like, there wasn't butter in the ingredients or something like, that was like, oh, shoot, we got to go back and make sure that we add that in. It's interesting to me because one of the. I'm going to pitch you. I'm going to Shark Tank, pitch you an idea right now, and you're an investor, and you have to tell me if you're going to invest in it. This actually isn't an original idea. It just kind of, it kind of iterates off of, you know, Mr. Beast. Do you ever watch, have you ever seen Mr. Beast videos?

No.

Okay. It's. That's your. It's like Mr. Beast and dude Perfect. Which are like target market audience of like 10 to 13 year olds and Bjork in Minnesota. But Mr. B, he's the. So he's the number one YouTube YouTuber I think, like has the most views and he does these like super over the top videos. Like and they always start out super quick. Like we bought an island in the Bahamas and we're gonna give it away to one of these 10 people. The longest one who stays on gets the million dollar island. And then it's like. But one of the things he did was like, hey, we took over a restaurant and we started our own burger chain and we're giving away burgers to anybody who comes by and iPads and wads of money. But at the end like that video, that like 15 to 20 minute video was kind of a promo for what he had as MrBeast Burgers. And there's like 60 locations around the US and like the day the video is released then you could do like MrBeast burgers. And this is me entering into my pitch now. I'm interested in like for a recipe blog. There's these things called ghost kitchens or cloud kitchens and they're essentially like we work for, for kitchens. So you can have like a really tiny little kitchen area and then it's only delivery. So like doordash, uh, and it hooks into all of those and you can just do delivery services through those. I think they're doing a version of that for mrbeast Burgers. I feel like there's an opportunity for bloggers to have like cloud kitchen locations where you could just order the recipe that is produced and published on the blog and on social. And then it could say like, hey, these cookies are here. You can order them tonight and have them delivered to your door. And then that would be done via a cloud kitchen. The. I'm asking for a 10% investment at a $10 million valuation. $1 million. Are you in, Leslie? No, but. But what's interesting to me within that is like the standardization of recipes and making sure that those are. You'd have to be really good at it in order to distribute something that somebody could look at, read through and then be able to make in your experience, like when you were working, doing at the restaurant, would you have to go through the process of testing the recipe that is standardized and written out yourself to make sure that it's that it. That it then works? Or was it like, you'd get this and you'd know, like, hey, I can for the most part, just follow this and it will work. Because I think with my idea, you wouldn't be able to like, train somebody in. In 10 different locations. So I'm curious to know if you have any thoughts on that. Like, how do. How do you. How did that work? Yeah. When you were at the restaurant.

Yeah, I think that's something that falls on the actual creator of the recipe. So in a restaurant, it's the chef. The chef should be testing the recipe several times. And that's something that I cover in the course as well, is how many times you should be testing. And ideally it's at least two to four times for every recipe. And that's not to say you can't test 10, 12 times. Like, that's even better. But for recipes in a restaurant, for instance, the chef goes through so many iterations of the recipe testing process that by the time he or she writes it down, it's pretty much standardized and good to go. That's not to say you'll sometimes find things that slip through the cracks, but I think it should be the same way for a blogger. You should test it enough times where anyone making it is going to have success, and then anyone making it in a cloud kitchen can also have success.

Yeah, there we go. That's where it really ties back around. So. And it's. I think what's interesting just from a business standpoint is like, there are some restaurants like Cheesecake Factory, where it's like you get the exact same thing, but it's probably because it's some version of pre made. I don't know if that's true for, for Cheesecake Factory, but like, the sweet spot is like, how do you get something that, that isn't, you know, pre made, that still is kind of standardized? And whether that is a cloud kitchen or you just writing a recipe and having other people do it, you know that that's kind of the ultimate, ultimate goal. It's interesting when you talk about the testing two to four times. I remember having a conversation with Sally from Sally's Baking Addiction. She's like, I don't think people have any idea how much goes into a single recipe. And she gave the example, I don't remember what it was of six, seven, Times going through and really perfecting a recipe. And I think it's one of the reasons why a conversation like this is really good is because we can talk about tactics and we can talk about like, growth hacks and things like that, which is like the maybe like the. The growth SEO social business side, which a lot of times we talk about. But really at its core, the thing that we are talking about is really good content. And to get really good content, you have to communicate it really well and you have to ensure that people are going to have success with it. So when you think you know for your own process, is that usually what you find that you're doing is like two to four times. And how do you know this is okay? This is the last time I'm going to test it because it's like, I feel like you could always do one more and it maybe wouldn't turn out if you continue to do it. So how do you know the degree of confidence that you can get to when you put the seal of approval on it?

Yeah, there's so many things to keep in mind with testing recipes. And yeah, for my own blog, it's definitely a process that I do. I'd say I lean more towards on the four to five, four plus times, just like you said, because it's kind of scary to publish something and have it be out there in the world and knowing that anyone can make it and leave a bad review and then you're like, oh, crap. But something to keep in mind with testing is that each time you test, you only want to change one thing. So for your second test, you could change one ingredient, but don't change one ingredient and want the cooking length. You know, like, if you're making cookies, don't take the salt out and then cook it for twice as long because you're not going to know what impact each one had. That's why you want to change one thing at a time. And that's oftentimes why it takes so many times to test. And for me, I'd say that I kind of decide I'm done when I get to a flavor that I really love. Like, I think it's great. And then I'll do it one more time just to make sure I can get the same consistent end result.

Yep, that makes sense. Yeah, it's interesting. Lindsay talks about, you know, in the fir the first three years versus the past, like three to four years for a pinch of yam and like, she would make something for lunch and like, jot it down, take a picture of it and then publish it. Because it's like early stages. It's kind of scrappy. It's almost like documenting the. The things that you're having to eat that day. But now it's at the point where, like, somebody, you know, you might publish something in the morning and somebody might be making that for lunch. And there's a really quick turnaround with that. And you know that people are, like, actually creating the content. And to your point in the course, like, one of the greatest ways to drive growth is to have, like, a consistent, reliable product that people can know that they can depend on. Because if you. You come and you have, like a, you know, 75% success rate, people probably aren't going to come back. They're going to start losing trust as soon as they, you know, it's like one out of every four doesn't work. And then it's like, well, there's probably a better place that I can go. So in terms of a growth tactic, one of the best is, like, being reliable and a trustworthy source. Another thing that you talk about is having recipe testers. So people who then go and kind of test it out. How do you do that? Like, is it just like family and friends, hey, can you try making this? Send them over the instructions and ingredients and see if they have success with it?

Yeah, there's definitely lots of ways you can go about it. And I think having recipe testers is important because you don't just want it to be you in your own kitchen testing something, because first off, your oven temperature might not be accurate. There's also things to keep in mind, like different altitudes can affect different baking and cooking processes. So for my own blog, yeah, I like to. Right now, I like to kind of just have friends and family. Like, my mom will test it or something like that. But an interesting scenario that I had was, I follow this. Another baking blogger, Emma Duckworth, bakes, and she was actually in the process of developing a cookbook. And so she posted on Instagram asking if anyone wanted to test recipes for her. And I was like, yeah, why not? So she sent me over two recipes. One for, I think it was bon bons, and then one for some biscotti. And so I actually tested those for her and then sent her back some of my feedback. And then she took all of that information, did some fine tuning, and then finalized the recipes for her cookbook.

Yeah. How do you know? Because I would imagine that there's some people who just like to give feedback. Like, I think about you know, if we were house shopping and we walked through with, like, all of our friends, I feel like everybody would have different opinions on what they like and don't like about it. Um, and I feel like the same thing would be true with recipes where people are like, oh, this is really good. But there's like, I don't like rosemary, so I'm like, but there's rosemary in here. And there's kind of a lot, because there's some. How do you know when to discard feedback? Where it's just like, somebody's opinion versus, like, hey, this, you know, this pie turned into, like, a soup and something should probably be done about it.

Yeah. I think that's where it's important to have maybe consistency in your testers. Like, if your mom is testing for you, have your mom test all of your recipes if she can, because, you know, like, her level of skill when it comes to cooking or baking, but you also know her dietary preferences and tastes, and it also comes into play like. Like the skill. For instance, if I have friends from culinary school testing for me, I know that they know how to make macarons, whereas if I gave the recipe to one of my other friends, they might end up with soup.

Yeah, totally. That makes sense. So it's almost like you're developing a little inner circle of people who are, you know, and can trust and have an understanding what their skill level is. There is a. We're not using this as much, but there was a pitch of Yum Group, a Facebook group. I think it's called, like, Pinch of Yum VIP Group or something like that, and was kind of used for stuff like that. I don't know if we ever actually did, like, recipe feedback or recipe testing for it. But just as a note, it's something that I think, you know, especially as people start to grow their site and want to make sure that there's a certain level of quality that people can do is kind of to develop this inner circle. You know, maybe it's 10, 20, 50 people who you can reach out to and have some structured way to do that. It could also be like a separate email list that you email people to. So some thoughts around that. Let's say somebody's new to it, like, just getting started. They really like the idea of. They've. They've had a long history with food recipe development. They feel confident in that regard, but maybe not as confident with, like, the actual writing of recipes. Recipes. Do you have any advice around how people can get started with that and even like, the idea of voice and how that fits in just in terms of kind of early stages for somebody who's maybe a little bit, like, hesitant to jump in.

Yeah, for sure. I think a good way to do it is kind of just to look at cookbooks that you love or popular bloggers. Like, I know Lindsay with Pinch of Yum. She has such a strong voice in her recipes, and that comes across even in, like, the instruction steps. Like, she always, like, makes me laugh out loud when I'm reading through them because they're actually engaging and funny. But that's her style. Your style might be different. So I think it just takes some different researching and, like, find cookbooks that you, like, see what different people are doing, and then use that to hone your own style. And that's where the standardized recipes will come in. You'll want to follow all of those steps to make sure you're writing all of your ingredients and instructions correctly. But as you develop your own style, you can use that for all of your recipes going forward.

Yeah, I think that's one of those things where people don't realize how. Or a lot of people don't, myself included, realize how long it takes to get to a point where you feel really good about your art and your craft and your skill. And I think with using Lindsey as an example, it's like 10 years of writing and recipe development and writing recipes and just writing on a site and photography being the same kind of thing. There's a couple different times that I've used the example of one of my. It's one of my favorite quotes from Ira Glass where he talks about the gap. Like, when you're a creator and, you know, good content, like recipes, like, you know, good recipes, you can see good recipes. But there's a gap when you're starting out. And I've referenced this before, and we can put the full quote in the show notes, but the basic idea. Do you know it? Have you heard it? Are you familiar with it?

Okay, I've heard it from you, and I've booked the book to check it out.

Okay, good, good, good, good. But the basic premise is he talks about, like, all of us who do creative work have good taste. We can see where we want to be, but when we're not there, we can feel that. Um, and that's just, like, a bummer to live in that gap. Um, but as you continually improve makes, you know, we talk about getting a tiny bit better every day, make those improvements, you start. You can start to shrink that gap. Until the point where you do become you. You do reach that level that you're excited about. So I think maybe just a note of encouragement for people who are early stages to know that if you stick with it.

Yeah, yeah. And just to go off that, too. I know for myself on my own blog, I have some recipes that I made a couple years ago that I'm just like, I cringe when I look at them. But the great part about a blog is that you can go back and you can retype. Like, you can rewrite those recipes, maybe add your voice into them, and it can be an ever evolving process as you grow and improve.

Yeah, that's awesome. So how about, you know, we're talking about, like, places that you can find inspiration, developing your voice. A lot of times somebody develops their voice. Use a music example. Again, it's like you listen to four different artists, and then, like, the songs that you're writing kind of sound like the songs that you've listened to. Same with the recipe world, where maybe you read cookbooks, you watch a show, you read other blogs. How do you go about attribution? What does it look like to make sure that you're properly crediting another blog where you found inspiration and whether it's inspired by, you know, you see people say, like, adapted from what? What advice would you have around that?

Yeah, it's such a big topic, and I feel like it's so contentious in this world, like, knowing what to do and knowing how to do it.

Right.

And so something I mentioned in the course, but I kind of use this guide that David Leibovitz has written. I don't know if you're familiar with his work.

Yeah, totally.

Yeah, he's awesome. But he has this really great article which I'm sure we can link. And he basically breaks it down into three categories. And then just before I get into it, something that is pretty standardized with recipes is if you change three things or three steps, that's kind of where it becomes your own. You don't want to just find a chocolate cookie recipe, copy and paste it onto your blog and say it's yours. And so the different scenarios he gives is, let's say you find a recipe online and it's for, I don't know, oatmeal chocolate chip cookies, and you make it again, but you change one or two things. It's still relatively similar to the original recipe, but you've adapted it. And so when you actually post it on your blog or website, you'd want to say adapted from XYZ Kitchen. And you actually want to include a link to the original recipe or cookbook if you can, just to make sure you're giving proper credit.

Yeah.

And then something else you can do, I want to mention is if you take a original recipe and you're inspired by it, but you change more than three steps, you could say something like, inspired by XYZ just to give it. But if you change several different things and you add in a new fruit and a new way of cooking, like instant pot, and it dramatically changes, I think that where it becomes your own and you don't necessarily need to give credit.

Yeah, that makes sense. We actually did an interview way back, episode 129, with David. So we'll link to that in the show notes and then link to that article that you referenced as well. Yeah, it's one of the hard things with anything online is just the other day in Slack, somebody on the team reached out and they're like, hey, somebody emailed us. And there's this site who's essentially like, you scroll through and, like, the pictures all are like the same angle and the same styling as Pinch of Yum. And they're like, what do we do? And we did. We had, like, sent a nice email before and was just like, hey, people are like, telling us that this looks really similar. And the hard part is, like, there's not a lot that you can do if it's. If somebody is, you know, taking or finding inspiration and not crediting that, which is kind of one of the hard realities of things online. But I think on the flip side, if you are somebody who is finding inspiration or have adapted a recipe, I think it's a great way to shine a light for somebody else. And I think that it's a great connection point as well to be like, hey, this is somebody I look up to, somebody that. Whether it's food or not, this is one of the great things about the web is it's a web. And that's when it's the best, is when it's links connecting to other links and other sites. And that's, you know, how it was built and why it was built is to connect people to other places. So obviously a hard thing, like you said, kind of contentious, but at its core, when I was thinking of this interview, it's like, hey, if there was a recipe you were looking at and you. And you're like, gosh, this would be something that I would like to do similar. It's like, well, that's kind of a version of being inspired by it. Um, and to your point, unless there's like these major drastic changes with it, we have a couple great interviews. You mentioned this in the course with Danielle Liss from Liss Legal. Um, she's also a food blogger, pro expert, um, and is in the forums occasionally talking through this stuff. So there's like the spirit of the thing, which is like giving credit when credit is due, and then there's the legal side of the thing. And that's what Danielle specializes in. So be sure to check out anything that Danielle has mentioned in, in the podcast she's done and also in the forum. So I'm interested to hear, you know, when you think about the process of, of writing and communicating when it comes to a recipe, so you're putting it together, how much is too much? So, you know, we know that we don't want to communicate too little because if you leave stuff out, people aren't going to know. They're, you know, you look back at old, like our old church cookbooks and it's like there's, there's like nothing to go off of. It's like, how did anybody ever make any of this? But on the opposite end, my guess is you don't want to go overboard with it. So do you have thoughts on kind of the balance between those and is it only writing or is there additional media that you could use to help communicate when you're writing a recipe?

Yeah, absolutely. I know for my own blog, when I'm writing, sometimes I'll start like typing away and then I'll have a huge paragraph of instructions and I'm like, who? Instead, the world is going to read through this and know what to do. So I think there is something to be said about brevity and keeping it short, but making sure to include everything that you need. And I think where you're saying about other types of media, that's where that comes in. And so you could actually, if you have the bandwidth, you could make recipe videos and have step by step videos for each area. And then there are certain recipe cards where you can have those linked to the steps and then people can watch those instead of reading through to know what to do. So it's definitely up to you. I, I try and stay somewhere in the middle. Not too short and not too long, but give as much information as people would need to make the recipe.

Yeah, I think that's the key with anything online is like, how long should a blog post be? Well, it's like it should be as long as what people need to have success with whatever the thing is. And it's like, how long should a video be? It's kind of the same thing. Like, it should be as long as you need to communicate whatever it is that you're communicating. And it feels like the same could apply to a recipe. One of the things that I think a lot about, they talk about, like, copy for pages, and they say the more information you have, the less people read. And I feel like there's that sweet spot with any type of communication where you're paring it down to the essentials, still making it engaging and interesting, but not going overboard, which it feels like. That is definitely an art, not a science that probably is developed over time as you. As you spend more time with it. Um, so coming to the end here, anything else that you feel like would be worth pointing out. Um, one of the things that I want to mention for Food Blogger Pro members, we have a live Q and A coming up where we're going to be talking about this. So if people have questions, jot those down, bring those to the live Q and A. Uh, we'll be sending out more information about that in a little bit. But anything else that you feel like would be an important topic that we cover or things that we hit all around the topic of recipe writing.

Yeah. I think the only thing I would add is, like we mentioned before, when you are developing your own recipes, it is a skill that you're developing over time and you will get better the more you do it. But I think for recipes, the most important thing to do is just always be trying new things. So if you're ordering takeout, try a new dish on the menu or something like that, and expose yourself to different flavors that you've never had. Because if you've never tried something, how are you ever going to make a recipe with that particular flavor? So it's always about exposing yourself to new things and finding inspiration. And when it comes to finding inspiration, I like to go to various places. I like to browse around on Pinterest and see what recipes are trending and then think about, oh, I found this really cool biscotti recipe with raspberries. I'm like, oh, maybe I can do my own biscotti recipe that has a different flavor. And so just always be researching and learning and find new ways you can do things just to keep developing that skill.

Yeah, the inspiration piece, I think is so important. I was thinking about that today. So I was driving over to the office. I was like, I just take the same route every day. And I look at the same things every day. And I think that's our. Our kind of where we are drawn like creatures of habit. I think most of us, not all of us, but to be able to break out of that, it's one of the great, a great excuse. It's hard in a season when you're having a global pandemic. But one of the great benefits of travel is you are in different places and seeing different things and trying different foods. I know for Lindsay, she talks about that a lot as a place of inspiration is anytime that we travel and we're able to get out of the routine of ordering from the same sushi place and Indian place, burger place, like the same three places that we order every month. But the idea of inspiration being so important. And in some instances I would say check with your accountant on this. But like, some of that could be considered, like, hey, this is a business trip. Like, I'm a creator, I do food and recipe development. And like, the purpose of this is for me to like, have a creative experience to broaden my horizon in regards to recipe development. So something that would be worth looking into as well. I think it's a great takeaway. Obviously, if people are Food Blogger Pro members, they can check out the course. We have the live Q and A coming up. And then you had mentioned a bunch of resources as well that we'll link to in the show notes to make sure that people can check those out. One of the things that you mentioned a couple times, Leslie, is your own site. We'd love for you to give a little shout out for that if people want to follow along with what you're up to and then maybe where people can connect with you within the Food Blogger Pro community.

Yeah, thanks so much for mentioning that. Yeah, I have my own baking blog. It's called the Baker's Almanac, which you can find just thebakersalmanak.com and I share mostly recipes and baking tips to help people get more confidence in the kitchen. And then you can find me elsewhere. I'm usually on Instagram and Pinterest and Facebook. Just the Baker's Almanac as well.

Cool, that's great. And then Food Blogger Pro, you're around hanging out in the forums, interacting with folks there and on chat and intercom and all of those different places as well. And now on the podcast officially. So really fun to kind of round that out and to have you on here. So, Leslie, thanks so much for coming on and for your work within Food Blogger Pro. Really fun to chat here.

Yeah. This is so great. Thanks for having me on.

That's a wrap for the interview with Leslie. If you are a Food Blogger Pro member, you know Leslie, you've seen her in the community forums. Maybe you've watched that course that she recently released. And if you haven't and you are interested in checking it out, go to foodbloggerpro.com and you can see all the other stuff that we have. It's not just a podcast. We have a blog where we publish blog posts. We have content around trending recipe topics which you can check out on the blog and obviously everything that comes along with the membership as well. We appreciate you. If not for you, we wouldn't do this podcast. Maybe that's obvious, but we need to say it because without you, we wouldn't be able to do this. And whether you are a podcast listener, a member, or just somebody who randomly stumbled across this after searching for recipe content or blogging content in the podcast app or on Spotify or wherever it may be, we want to say thank you for listening. We will be back here again same bat time, same bat place. Until then, make it a great week. Thanks, Sam.