308: Virtual Events - Earn an Income by Teaching Classes Online with Tomas Hoyos

Hello, hello, hello. You are listening to the Food Blogger Pro podcast. This is Bjork Ostrom, and today we are interviewing Tomas Hoyos and he's going to be talking about Air Subs, a business that he pivoted into when we went through this little thing called a global pandemic. And he's going to be talking about what that was like to kind of shift gears, to focus on a new thing, to build a business from the ground up in a new area that wasn't anticipated. And some of the success that they've had as a business because of the success that the customers, the people who use Air subs have experienced and kind of when they started to realize that this is an idea that has a lot of traction. The thing that's most exciting to me about this interview is the fact that Air Subs, kind of the idea behind the business and what people do when they use Air subs is they create content. They are creating content that people pay for. And I think there's a lot of opportunity for creators, for food creators, people who have recipe blogs, to create a product around their content as opposed to just creating content, quote, unquote, for free, that you monetize via sponsored content or advertising. So it's a really good category to be thinking about when it comes to building out the different revenue streams that.

You have within your business.

And Tomas is going to be talking about the different ways that people are doing that and the success that they're having.

And I think it'll be a really.

Exciting episode for those of you who have been thinking about different ways that you can create income from your site. So without further ado, let's go ahead and jump in. Tomas, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks so much for having me. Bjork.

Yeah, this is, this is one of those podcasts where I feel like we could do. It could be like we shoot for an hour usually, but it could be like a five hour conversation. So I'll try and get through. I'll try and get through the top 20% of what I want to talk to, but we won't be able to hit everything because your story is one that's really interesting for me personally. Kind of overlaps with a lot of areas of interest, so I know that I'm going to learn a lot as well. And just as a little tease before we press record, you know, you had shared a couple stories of users of Air Subs who are making multiple thousands of dollars a month with the product, but we're going to use that we're going to bury the lead, and we're going to talk about first the story of air subs, because I think your story of pivoting during global pandemic, which a lot of people have had to do, is an interesting one to talk about, because I think a lot of people have this question of, like, when do I continue to grind on the idea that I think might be successful versus shifting, depending on what I see happening within the world. So rewind me back to, let's say, January 2020, when life was a little bit more normal than what it is now. At that point, what were you working on and what was the focus from a business perspective for you?

Yeah, definitely. So, first, thanks so much for having me. What did life look like before the pandemic? So, yeah, hard to remember. Yeah, exactly. The Airsoft story starts, like, about a year ago right now, in the beginning of the pandemic. And so at the time, I was working on a startup, and like many other businesses in the pandemic, we were deeply affected. So almost overnight, we went from having tens of thousands of users who really needed our product to a lot less. And I remember it was during that one week in March when the pandemic really took hold in New York City.

And you were in New York at the time?

Yeah, I was in New York City. And the news was coming in waves, and it kind of felt like a big line of dominoes. So first was, you know, there's news coming from all over the world. There's this coronavirus that not many people know about. And then I felt like the first shoe dropped when Tom Hanks tested positive for Covid.

Yeah, totally.

In Australia, because it was just like this big figure that everyone knows, and they're like, oh, man, Tom Hanks can get it.

If Tom Hanks can get it, I'm in trouble.

Yeah, exactly. And so then, like, the NBA canceled their season, and the number of cases.

In your travel from China was. Was closed off. It was all in the same night, wasn't it?

Yeah, it was crazy. It was just sort of like this one night when everyone was kind of like, glued to the TV or glued to the checking Twitter. And so at the same time, like, in the next couple days, I remember looking at a chart, and I saw a 70% decline in our business in the main metric that we tracked, which was users. And so, you know, we were not alone. Businesses across the economy were affected, and there were obvious ones that lost out, like restaurants. And then there were obvious winners, like grocery stores and e Commerce.

Yep.

And like many other people who were in our shoes, you know, we pivoted because we had to. And we launched a side project that's taken off and become air subs and airsubs, helps people host live virtual events and earn money. And so, you know, really, like, the first thing that we noticed that led us to the idea was that everything was shifting to be virtual. And so anything that you were doing in person was now virtual. So if you were going to the office and not an essential worker, you're now working from home, you were going to the gym, you're now working out at home on Zoom, you're going to a restaurant, you're now buying groceries, and you're cooking at home. And so, you know, we started to see this make its way into the world of creators, just generally, and then specifically food bloggers. And so people were going live on Instagram and they were teaching things and getting people together in a way that was. It was pretty cool, but it was also still really hard. And so we saw a food blogger teaching cooking classes on Instagram, and she was asking people to Venmo her with a donation for a ticket.

Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

And so we figured that there had to be a better way to get your community together virtually and then also create a way for people to make money at a time when a lot of people were having a really tough go of it. And so, you know, we hacked together a product that made it really simple to host virtual events and earn money, and we launched it. And so we didn't know what. How it was going to go.

Yeah.

And we found someone who, you know, she was already teaching some virtual classes and kind of like, hacking it together manually, doing a lot of Instagram live and stuff. And she would get, like, you know, 20, 30 people together on a Zoom. And we told her, hey, we think we can help you scale this thing. We think we can help you grow it up. And so we built this tool. We gave ourselves 72 hours to pull it together, and we launched it really quickly. And then in the first week, she hosted a class with a thousand people together on Zoom, which totally blew our mind. We were looking at it and just constantly streaming through the pages of Zoom. And in her first week, she made over $50,000 doing virtual events, which was many times more than any before.

And at that point, for you guys as a business, you're like, there's definitely something here. If this one person can do it, then there's probably 100,000 people who can do it. We Just need to get this in front of them.

Yeah, exactly. And so your question before was about when do you know when to grind and when to pivot? And so one of our investors was, you know, he's seen a bunch of pivots. He was one of the first investors in Twitter, which was a pivot. He's one of the first investors in Lyft, which was also a pivot.

Yeah.

And also one of the first investors in Twitch, which is a pivot.

And can you talk about each one of those? Because I think those even, like Instagram is a story where it was. I forget what it was like Bourbon, I think, originally. But the idea being these companies start as something. Slack being another example, start as something. And then you realize they're not going to actually be the thing that you thought they were going to be when you first start and you go in a different direction for each one of those. I think people would be curious to know you had said Twitter Lyft. And what was the last one?

Yeah, last one was Twitch. So, so, and, and I. So I'll share each one of them, what I know about it. And I'm sure other people have like, you know, better versions of more accurate versions of the story. But as I understand it, Twitch, which is now a platform that helps people stream themselves as they're doing something, and a lot of video gamers use it. They'll stream their screen as they're playing a game with other people on Twitch so that everyone can watch it. So that originally started as just in TV and socialcam. So the original concept was a live TV show that never ended. So someone was walking around and they had a camera on their head.

Justin. And his name was Justin and it was Justin tv.

Yeah, yeah. And he would. He would walk around and it was. It was like a live show all the time. And I think they realized at some point that, you know, there's a reason that shows are, you know, however long they are.

30 minutes as opposed to 24 hours.

Yeah, exactly. Cause, like, all day, in between moments are a little boring.

Super boring. You realize like how boring your life is when you live stream it 24 7.

Yeah, exactly. So I think they shifted from Justin TV to something called Socialcam. I don't actually know exactly what Socialcam was, but I think both of those weren't working great. And then someone on their team, I.

Think it was like a social network, like a video social network. Almost like a Vine almost, if I remember right.

Yeah.

So kind of in a similar space, but then eventually shifted. I didn't realize socialcam then eventually shifted into Twitch.

Yeah, or I think they like carved out, like, they started working on Twitch on the side, and then at some point they carved it out and they sold socialcam. But. But long story short, they saw the things that they were working on weren't gonna be very successful in the long run, and they found something that was really working. And they were constantly experimenting on the side, and they found one thing and ran with it. And then as far as Lyft goes, I think they started as essentially like a ride sharing company. So it would be. I think it started at a college in upstate New York and it was a Cornell.

And.

And the founders conceived with the idea of people getting together to hop in a car and drive down to New York City.

Yeah, hey, we're all going to Boston or something. Like, let's all take a trip together if we're all going to the same place.

Yeah, exactly. And then I think they shifted it to be more of a concept of ride hailing, which everyone's familiar with. It's like what Uber and Lyft do today. So it's sort of like a derivative of what they were already doing that they. That they shifted to. And then Twitter, I think Odeo was the original concept and I think.

Oh, yeah, that's right.

It had, you know, had something to do with. With audio, but they also had this concept of like micro blogging and then shifted into. Into Twitter, which has had kind of this, like, amazing solution. So, yeah, to the question of, you know, whether you should keep grinding or whether you should launch something and work on. Work on something new, it's a really hard question and it's a really personal question because you hear both stories, you hear people really persevere, and they were just on the other side, right on the cusp of something amazing. And it was that last little bit of effort that got them there. And then there's also folks who they let themselves follow a path which is like, really pulling them in that direction. And so I think the way that I think about it is, you know, if you really are getting, like, pulled in a certain direction, where it's like only thing you can think about, or it's just like. So obviously, you know, more interesting or better or more helpful than what you're already doing. Yep. Like, I definitely. I'd probably lean into it. That's how I think about it.

That's great. Yeah, There really is. There's not a science to it. Right. You can. There's not like an equation that you can apply to it that spits out the answer of if you should keep going or not. But I think some of the things that I'm guessing you'll talk about here can be indicators as to whether you should continue moving forward or not. Like, is the thing you're doing resonating with people? Like, in its simplest form, whether it's content or a product, are you creating something that people are responding to positively or actually have positive outcomes from it? So I think helpful to kind of frame up the conversation, moving into talking about air subs. But also I think a lot of people are thinking about that if they've been working on something for a really long time, do I continue to do this and hope that, like, eventually I get that breakthrough moment, or do I shift and pivot? And what I hear you saying is there isn't really a good answer. And it partly depends on the product and the thing you're working on, and it partly depends on who you are and what you want to be working on. Like, is it a good fit for you? Are you able to continue to do that for a long period of time? And are you getting kind of a response from people that indicates, hey, this is something that I'm kind of interested in. So eventually you pivot. You were healthcare kind of focused before healthcare world really changes, and now you say, wait, there might be an opportunity here for us to work with creators. Everybody that listens to this podcast is in some way a creator. Tell me about that first initial success for somebody to create. $50,000, you said in the first week. Is that right? What did that look like? Kind of start to finish? Is it somebody who's really good at marketing, who had, like a huge audience, and then what was it that they're selling and how much did they sell it for?

Yeah, so first, it was a natural extension of what she was already doing. So she was actually. Our first user, was actually a fitness instructor. And we've now seen the product evolve in such a way that it's really, like, taken hold in the community of food. And tons of food bloggers, recipe developers, food photographers are using the product. And that's sort of the a use case that's going incredibly well for us. But the first user ever was a fitness instructor. And so, you know, she had a big, but not massive following, and she had 25,000 Instagram followers, and she was already teaching fitness classes as part of a larger studio, which I think was Equinox. And so she had been teaching at Equinox for a little while, but had also been doing these classes on the side and had a little bit of a following on Instagram. And so, you know, I think what. What really drove her to be successful, at least in the beginning, is that she was. She was early. And then she was offering a product that people really loved early, like in the pandemic.

Meaning, like, hey, this was a unique offering related to the timing of when people needed to work out and they didn't have a solution.

Exactly. So she was early in the sense that she saw, hey, gyms are shutting down. I'm to get furloughed or laid off.

People have been sitting on their couch for a couple weeks and are starting to think, I need to exercise.

Yeah, exactly. And this is probably going to shift to Zoom, and that's going to be the default, at least for a while. So I'm going to lean into it. And so it was also a product that people loved. It's a really good workout. And then also the way that she made people feel in class, feeling super motivated, really focused on community, it was just sort of like a really great product. One of the magic moments for her was realizing that virtual can actually be a much better business for a bunch.

Of so than in person.

Than in person. So a core component of that is that you don't have to be limited by physical space. So if you were teaching a cooking class or if you're teaching a fitness class, if you're doing it in person, you're limited by the physical space that you have. So you're limited to 20, 30, 40 people at max. And what she realized is that not only shifting to digital lets you serve a larger audience, but it really doesn't matter where they are. So they can do anywhere in the country or around the world. And the quality of the experience does not degrade that much with each person that you add. And so it actually ends up just being more fun. If you're in A class with 60 people versus 50 or 100, it's like Peloton.

Like when you go on a run and there's 300 people and you're getting, like, random high fives, it's like, oh, this is really cool. And then, like, I've had it before where the Internet cuts out, I'm like, really quickly, it becomes not fun.

Like when.

When it's just me on a treadmill running, I'm like, oh, yeah, this isn't very fun, is it? But when you have other people, there's an energy, even if it's digital.

Yeah. And there was something to being in. In that Zoom where there was a thousand other people and you're all seeing each other and, you know, you're in your home working out, and you see this sea of faces and everyone doing the same thing. It's kind of this really, like, crazy social experience where you feel like you're in the future and you're in the movie that you're working out virtually. And so that was really interesting. And I think the other thing that really clicked for her, you know, and just in thinking about this and, like, what we've seen is that the business is just much more profitable in the sense that you don't have to pay rent, you don't have to.

Overhead.

You don't have overhead. Like, you can essentially be like, you know, a person who is also a company or, like, has a product that's also a company with a limited set of tools. You know, the problem that she was running into is that she was hacking together all these tools, and it was just like making her life hell to pull this off.

So she becomes essentially the tech department for a virtual class that she's running, which is where Air Subs kind of fits in.

Exactly. So, you know, she has to build a website where people can. Can go to the event. She has to integrate signups, she has to integrate payment processing process. She has to, you know, create Zoom links and meeting links, and she has to distribute them via email.

And 10% of the people are like, my connection is fuzzy. What do I do? And it's like, she's working out and she's like, sorry, I can't help you.

Yeah, exactly. And so what we saw is that there's a way to build a product that solves those problems and makes it much easier to host a virtual event and earn money, but where it's fun, like, you can focus on the things that matter, which are doing a fun class or doing a fun event and earning money, and not worry about the technology or the payments or some of the business stuff make it incredibly simple to do this. So, like, what is Air Subs? It basically helps creators, but a lot of food creators host virtual events and earn money. And the most common thing we're seeing is food creators hosting Zoom cooking classes and baking classes. And we've seen people get creative with virtual cookbook tours and other events, and we just kind of make it easy to get started so you can focus on that fun stuff. And again, it lets you set up a page, sell spots, handle ticketing Confirmation emails, reminder emails, automatically create Zoom links, sell in different ways. You can sell a membership, you can sell a package of classes, you can sell gift cards. It helps you build up an email list and then market the classes. It's essentially like a virtual event business in a box.

Yeah. So is it built on top of Zoom in a way where you sign up for your own Zoom account, you enter in your credentials for Zoom, and then through API access, AIRS Hubs kind of does what it needs to do. So then you essentially are going in and pressing, like start on a Zoom event and then people show up or how, how much do you have to be involved in kind of the setup process with it?

Yeah, it's super simple. So our goal is to make it incredibly easy and have it so you can set this up in less than five minutes. So, you know, with Zoom specifically, you click one button and you, it hooks up your Zoom account and then you never have to worry about anything else again. Like you will add a class that you want to teach and it'll automatically create the Zoom link. And when people sign up, they'll automatically get the confirmation email. The confirmation email has the right Zoom link and so it just kind of takes all that stuff off your plate. But yeah, you know, with, with cooking classes specifically, there's like a few big picture themes that we're seeing. So the first is that like this is the perfect moment to run virtual cooking classes because they're super fun. And if you imagine what the pandemic's been like, it's just been really isolating for a lot of people. Like no matter where you are in the country or where you are in the world, at one point you were in some version of isolation, distancing, lockdown. And so like, there's just so much human connection missing. And so it's a great way to get together and learn something and make something delicious. And people are cooking so much more than they ever have.

Right.

And in talking to so many folks like in and around food, it's just interesting to see, like, there's just this huge surge in interest and demand. I mean like a lot of folks who are really having, having some very successful bread making classes and really crushing it with sourdough. And like. Sourdough?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally at its mom.

In the last year. And so it's just brought people so much joy where if you're stuck in your house and you haven't seen someone in so long, it's really refreshing to get together and be able to cook something with A room full of people and also with someone who you admire and you look up to and whose recipes you've been making for a long time. And then for the people who are teaching the classes, it's also really fun. Alexander Stafford. Ali Stafford was one of the first people to start teaching on our subs. And what she told me was that she feels like it. It's like a party that she. That she's.

A digital party.

Yeah. But it's kind of nice. And that she doesn't have to get all the stuff there and like cook for a million people. And so, you know, it's just kind of brought people a lot of joy. And then, you know, the other thing that, that we're seeing is that it's. It's also just been like, scale really well, and it's. It's pretty lucrative. So we talked about a little bit with, like, why a virtual class is better than an in person class. You know, we're seeing people consistently host these zoom cooking classes, you know, with 100, 200 people in them. And, you know, they're charging usually somewhere between $25 and $50 ahead. Yeah. And so it just ends up kind of being this really lucrative thing where the price point is still really accessible for. For people who want to take the classes and the experience, the quality is really high. But when you get that many people together and it's at that accessible price point and you aren't limited by scale, it can just be really lucrative. And then I think the other thing that we're seeing is that people are charging for these events in a different way. So in the old world, if you were going to do a cooking class, like, a lot of it would just be like individual tickets. So you pay 25 or 50 bucks and you'd show up for class and not that many people would do cooking classes that often. So many people have done in person cooking classes. Like I've done Sur La Table in New York. You know, it's like more. Feels like more of a special occasion, but when it's virtual, it's just so much easier that the frequency with which people want to take the classes and like the fun, casual atmosphere of doing the classes makes it so that people want to do it more and more consistently. And so we have folks who are teaching like two to four classes a month.

Sure.

And when you. When you are doing it at that level of frequency, that is amenable to building it into a community with recurring. Yeah. With a membership.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So people pay $25 a month. And you just get access to the premium cooking class that is going to happen once a week, at Wednesdays, at noon or whatever.

Yeah, exactly. And so you save yourself a spot in every cooking class. And then the other really creative thing that folks have done that a bunch of the creators we're working with have done is they're essentially recording all of these live classes. And so they're building up this big video library of all these classes they've taught previously. And so when someone signs up for a membership, they do save themselves a spot in all the live classes, but then also get to go back and watch all the classes that have been taught previously. And every time that you teach a class, you're essentially adding to this big library of classes you've taught previously. And so it's sort of this concept of, you know, make money while you sleep or, you know, spend time.

People could sign up and they could join and be a part of part of that and immediately have access. Kind of on demand.

Exactly right. So, like, you teach it once and then you continue to sell it over a really long period of time. And the memberships that people have launched have been really interesting just because it's created this recurring revenue for people. And then there's a bunch of reasons. I mean, you know, Foodlogger Pro, I think you understand the power of subscriptions and memberships. It's just like a really interesting business model where you're deeply aligned with your customer, where they have an incentive to use the product more and more over time. And then it's really great to have that steady recurring revenue where you can predict how much revenue is going to come in per month, and you can count on it, and you can start to understand it. And it grows over time. And you have this really big, you know, sort of asset that's growing over time. And it gives you just enormous freedom and peace of mind to know that you have this consistent revenue.

That's really interesting. So a couple of nitty gritty questions for you that I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on. May or may not be relevant, but I'm just curious. You have a thousand people, they're all showing up, and they have their own little, like, zoom, you know, square. What happens if one of them starts to get weird? Like, what happens with the weird students? Whatever that might be, like, somebody who's in a workout thing. And they're like, well, I just always work out with my shirt off. And you're like, that's not how we work out. In this class, if it's just you, do you need to have somebody who's like, facilitator or like behind the scenes, like blocking people or kicking people out? What does that look like?

Yeah. So thankfully we have not run into issues here. To the extent that there was an issue, it's really simple to kick someone out of a meeting or mute them. And so we do have, like a very quick training program also, you know, for folks who are just getting started. Like, we do offer moderation services. So, like, if you want some help for your first few classes getting set up, what we found is that when most people start teaching consistently, they become like experts of their own style and they really make it their own.

Yeah. And you get tools in your tool belt to remind people how to be successful on the, on the event and, you know, to meet well, can. Do people have the ability to mute and unmute themselves?

Yes. Yeah. So it is, it's. It's a class where people can unmute themselves and ask questions. You can set it up so that they can't do that. But we found is that the energy in the classes is very casual, it's very fun, and it does not become kind of a free for all. What most people will do is they'll say, you know, hey, like, would love to see no pressure, but would love to see all your faces. If you want to turn your camera on, feel free to unmute yourself and ask a question. Just make sure to re. Mute yourself after and drop any questions in the chat and we'll get to them. When you do have big classes, whether it's like 100, 200, you know, a few hundred people, what you'll find is that you don't actually get pummeled with questions. I mean, it's usually there's like a few questions that a lot of people have, and one person will ask it and then everyone else will kind of just piggyback on it. And then also when there's that many people, like, it's actually like how many people get up and ask a question in an auditorium when everyone's watching? Like, it's like a handful of people. So we thankfully, it's like the energy in the classes has been awesome. We haven't had, you know, any issues. We're seeing like many thousands of classes. So. But to the extent that there was an issue, it's pretty simple.

Yeah, sure. And I would imagine that's a problem that would come up. The more successful you are in having more people come, the more that that actually becomes an issue. Like, when we do live events, I'm thinking if we have like 500 to 1,000 people in the chat area, at least, that's very different. It's like you can't even keep up with it. So I'd imagine it would be, depending on the topic and people's comfort level with it, that occasionally if you. If it's like, you know, open, kind of free for all for anybody to ask, might come up. There's also. I feel like the issue of that came up when we were doing Christmas carols with Zoom Christmas carols this holiday season. And there is the classic, like, uncle who didn't mute himself on Zoom. And like, nobody can act. You can't sing Christmas carols on Zoom because every. It all comes in at different times. It was actually really awesome and really funny, but it was, for me, it was like, oh, yeah, there's something here about managing this. So it seems like especially if you'd have a thousand people, that there'd be at least 0.1%, whatever. It might be kind of one to 10 people at any given time who are unmuted and working out at home. So in those cases, it feels like you'd have to have somebody who's like, on mute duty to, like, manage that, especially once you get into the higher numbers. But it feels like zoom etiquette is understood enough. If you have less than a hundred, then chances of that happening aren't as high.

Yeah. And for those, like, really large classes too, like, there's things like there's a mute all button and then there's a participants panel, which anyone who's talking and making noise automatically gets stuck to the top and then.

Got it.

Just like click their name. It'll mute them, like, right away.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's all. Yeah, that makes sense. And that's kind of the tools in the tool belt where you start to learn eventually those settings and the ability to do that. And, you know, we've gone through that. We use. We've used different services for Food Blogger Pro to do events, and very quickly you learn how to handle those. So how do. How are people actually going about. They're probably not just setting up their computer and pulling up Zoom and using the computer camera. Or are they. Do you have to have a professional studio setup or a prosumer version of a studio? How do people set up an area to actually shoot and broadcast the video?

Yeah. So first we have a bunch of resources on how to run an amazing Zoom cooking class on our website. And we also did a really cool event recently where we had some of our most successful folks talk about what their setup is. The good news is that you most likely have everything that you need to do for class. And so the setup that most people are doing is they're using two devices. So they have their smartphone, usually an iPhone, something like it, where that is the main camera that they're teaching to. And they will also join the zoom with their laptop which will be right on side. And then they can look at their laptop to check the chat box for any questions and see everyone's faces and you can join with both devices and then, you know, as far as, you know, if you want to get super fancy with microphones and camera quality, you totally can. And we have people who like have the best, most crisp cameras and microphones. But I'd say the vast majority of people are they use their iPhone that they already have and love, use a laptop. And then, you know, maybe they'll use some AirPods or a microphone that they use. But you're pretty much all set with just like your phone and your computer.

Cool. Yeah. Like you can. The way computers are now, mics and cameras, if it's a new one, it's going to be pretty high quality. If you want to level up, have a even higher quality camera, you could even do technically, you could even do probably multiple angles. Like if you had somebody who was acting as producer and making cuts and things like that. Like I'm thinking you could do a top down shot, maybe you have one in the corner. And, and as I've seen people who do this once it becomes more normal and we're getting there to being in person again. You could probably do one where you have like a small live studio audience for the energy to capture there as well as, you know, it's almost like Creative Live. And it seems like a lot of what you guys are doing is like democratizing Creative Live. So like anybody can do a Creative Live event and they get, they make the money as opposed to like, I don't know how Creative Live works, but I think it's probably like a rev share or you know, kind of an upfront fee that they, that they, that they give folks. What about on the marketing end, how do you get people to sign up? What does that look like in terms of how often you have to talk about it? And is there like this huge spike where a bunch of people are interested? Oh, online class. And then do you see it kind of like tail off a little bit as it Becomes more familiar. But I'd be interested in the marketing side of things. What you see.

Yeah, definitely. So we found, like, the most effective tactics for marketing are the ones that you suspect. So email. So if you have an existing email list of people or a newsletter, like, that's a great group of people to let know that you're teaching virtual classes. You're doing something where you're getting the community together. So email marketing is huge. And then Instagram is a great place. So the most effective form of Instagram marketing that we have seen is just going live in a story and talking to camera and telling someone about why they should come to class. Basically giving them reasons to show up. Like, hey, everyone, I'm so pumped. We're making my mom's famous chicken parm recipe. I learned this recipe when I was little. I've always loved it. We've been making it for years. It's one of the most popular things on the blog and it's going to be delicious. You should come make this. We're going to have a really fun group of people. It's going to be several dozen people. We're going to make it together. It's on Zoom. You'll have it. We'll make some extra. So you got leftovers. And like, you know, swipe up to book if you have 10,000 viewers or, you know, hey, the link to book is in my bio. So. And as far as, like, you asked for frequency marketing, really, it depends on the size, on your goal for the event. Like, how many people do you want to show up and what are you charging. So one way to think about it is, you know, is there like an hourly rate that you want to enforce for yourself? So if you're thinking I want to make, you know, $100 an hour or a thousand dollars an hour, you can kind of back into how many people you want to come and the price you want to come. And so, you know, you can sort of solve for how, how much you want to promote it. We have folks who don't do that much marketing, but will still be able to fill up, you know, classes. So, yeah, they'll do it starting about two weeks out, maybe 10 days out for a class. They'll do anywhere from one to four classes per month. Talk about each class a few times. So in aggregate, it's really not that much effort from a marketing perspective. A couple things that are really interesting that people are doing that have been effective. So one is air subs helps you build up your email list. So you now have this community of people who are coming, taking your classes, and they're signing up for emails. And that's an amazing pool of people who would want to come and take your classes in the future. And so.

And it's in Kevin Kelly talks about a Thousand true Fans. I don't know. Do you know that Kevin Kelly post? Classic startup. But, like, it's a good way to figure out who your thousand true fans are because these are people who are signing up and paying. So, like, you know that these are people who love what you're doing and following along. So does it. Do those emails live within Air Subs, or can you connect that to, like, Mailchimp ConvertKit? What does that look like?

Yeah, so anyone who signs up for one of your cooking classes, you have their email. You can download it and you can take it with you. So if you wanted to use it, if you wanted to reach people through email on another platform like you, you could do that. And you can also import email contacts from, from another email list that, that you have. But what's really interesting about, you know, that concept of, of a thousand true fans is that many times you have these fans, these people really love you, but you don't necessarily know, like, who they are. Like, you might be able or be able to reach them. Right, so they may live, like, they may live for your Instagram stories or your Instagram post, or just check your.

Blog and not signed up for anything.

Yeah, exactly. And so what's really interesting is, you know, we have folks who don't necessarily have, like, massive, massive followings with like, you know, millions of people or whatever. It's. It's much. It's much smaller, but they're able to build, like, these really robust, durable, lucrative businesses with smaller communities of people where they're consistently doing classes with 25 people, 50 people, 100 people, and then you see really good retention on that community of people. If you're offering the classes consistently, you're creating a fun environment and people like the classes, like, they will come back more and more. And so, you know, for someone I have in mind who has a thousand true fans that she found through Air Subs, what she told me was, you know, she has, you know, tens of thousands of followers on Instagram, but the people who love her most on Instagram, like, she doesn't have their email. And so now it's sort of like her Air Subs community has been like, the sub has become the subset of her Instagram community who's most engaged and wants to come and it's just the best thing in the world for her to be able to communicate with them directly. And then now she has all her emails. And so one person, Caroline Chambers, talked about this on a podcast recently, and she has this really interesting story where in her previous life she was a recipe developer, and so she was 100% behind the camera. Right. So she was not at all focused on building up her own personal brand. And before the pandemic, she had like 1500 followers or something like that. And then the pandemic hit a ton of her clients who were paying her for her recipe development services. Their budgets dried up overnight. And so she's sitting there thinking, like, all right, how am I going to go build this business and earn some income? She started doing these classes, and now she has classes routinely with like a few hundred people in them. She has several hundred subscribers on her Kitchen Table Cooking school membership that she uses air subs to manage. And she was really able to kind of like build this community of people through cooking classes. She built up this big email list, and then now with this email list, like, those were the first people that she told when she launched a paid newsletter. So she now has this really successful substack. She's like a top five, you know, food and drink category creator on substack. She has a paid newsletter. And one of the reasons she launched a paid newsletter was that she couldn't get a cookbook deal.

Sure.

So she went and pitched her cookbook to a million people and she said, like, you know what, I'm just going to do this myself and I'm going to do like a reverse cookbook. It's not going to be one. We're going to do like a weekly newsletter, and it's going to be the same amount of recipes as if I put them all on a cookbook and gave it to you. And so we are seeing kind of this cross pollination of interesting business opportunities. But really, like, when you're talking about marketing, like, what it comes back to is like just the basics. It's, you know, telling people, you know, about it on a, on a consistent basis once they start to know that it's something that you offer, you know, and that you're doing it consistently. If you give it time for word of mouth to take hold, like, it can really grow over time. So, you know, sometimes there is a tiny bit of a spike in the beginning, but then it is sort of like it kind of trickles up.

Yep, that makes sense.

At least from what we've seen.

And one of the things that I love about what you're talking about is a lot of people in our space think about how do I get more traffic, how do I monetize that via ads and potentially sponsor content? And one of the hard things with a food site or a recipe site is there isn't always a clear picture of what the product can be. And I think it's universally understood that a better way, the best way to build a business is by selling a product. But for food creators, there's. There's oftentimes a question of, like, what is my product? A lot of times it's a cookbook. But those numbers don't often work out. You know, you maybe work with the publisher. The advance isn't what you want it to be. And so what we're talking about allows people to kind of think strategically, not about just, how do I get more page views, how do I get more page views to my blog to make a little bit more from ads, but to think about who do I currently have, who's following me, who's interested in what I'm doing, and what does it look like to take a small sliver of those people and to serve them really well with a product? And you kind of hinted at this before when you were talking about the first person who used it and their experience as a fitness instructor and what they did. But, like, you have to. The product has to be good, too. And I think a lot of people get stuck in this idea of, like, ooh, a new system. I'm going to do this. And then don't really think about the actual product itself.

Yeah.

And that's so important to it. So you have the followers, you have the product, and then you have the system, which acts as a multiplier. But what does a good product look like? Like, what does a really successful live event look like for somebody who has the following and has an idea of what it is, but maybe doesn't know how do you pick it and know what will be awesome?

Yeah, it's just fun. And there's something magical about getting a big group of people together, making something delicious and fun with someone that they look up to. And, like, food is so many different things. Right. It's like friendship, it's family, it's culture, it's memories. It's like, everything. And so getting people together to make something together is just, like, really fun at its core. And so as long as you don't, like, deviate too far from that, you have something really great to work with as far as what a common, really successful class looks like it'll be. What's a fun recipe? One main recipe. And then a lot of times people will do a fun cocktail for happy hour. So they'll make one recipe. They'll usually start with the things that are really simple and straightforward. Maybe there's a recipe that their community loves or like a post that gets a ton of traffic on their blog. They'll pick something that's like really low hanging fruit and easy and they'll make that. A lot of times people say like, hey, do I need to create new recipes for these classes? Like, absolutely not. Just make it easy on yourself. And like what? Are you sure someone like wants another, you know, sourdough basics class? It's like, well, it's not that they want another sourdough basics class, it's that they want your sourdough because they've been following you for a really long time and they really love like all of the effort that you put into your craft and like how you make it accessible to them and like the tone that you use when you communicate, like what you're teaching someone. And so they really just want to make it together with you. And then there's also kind of the, you have something to show for it. You know, at the end of a class if someone's participating, following along, like they have something delicious that they can share with other people. But like a really successful class is usually like one or two recipes. It's a fun group of people. You'll kind of, you'll make it together. It's something that it's not going to be super hard for you unless you want to make it challenging. And you've got like, you know, that's your, and that's kind of what like a really fun, successful class looks like. But.

And is it like half hour, hour? Have you found there's a sweet spot for on the recipe side? I'm guessing you know, fitness workout would be like 30 minutes to an hour. But what does it look like when you're making a recipe?

Yeah, so I, I'd say it really depends on what your sweet spot is. The most common we've seen are 45 minutes to an hour and a half.

Sure.

We have seen people do like really long things on, on weekends. Someone did this like heroic meal prep class that was on a Sunday. It was like several hours. Yeah, there was just this huge number of people cooking together, getting ready for the week and it was so fun and had so much, you know, to show for it because they made a bunch of different recipes. We've seen a lot of, like, the bread making stuff happen on weekends, and that's a bit longer. But, yeah, the sweet spot is usually like, somewhere around an hour, like plus or minus 30 minutes. That's kind of been the. The most. The most.

And how much of it is informational versus entertainment? Like, are people actually making these alongside the creators in real time?

Yeah. So 2/3. Usually it's around like 2/3 to 75% of the class is cooking along with you. So the majority of people cook along, not like a demo that people watch. And there are a subset of people who really love to watch. And so they're essentially treating it like a live, interactive TV show, you know, and the TV show is an institution, right? Like the cooking shows, like, institution. And everyone loves them, and they're super fun and awesome. They're not live, they're not interactive, and you can't ask questions. And so the first time that I watched, like, a really huge cooking class, the amount of people I saw, like, taking notes during the class just blew my mind. It was amazing. They weren't there to cook, and they were just taking notes to make sure that they could really crush it when they did it later. And it's, you know, it's just like a really. It's a really fun, live, interactive thing, but you can also make it your own. So if there's a specific culture you want to create, whether it's around, you know, when and how people ask questions or how many recipes you cook, there's little funny rituals that people create, and there's little moments in there that just don't happen unless you're there with people live. So the other night, someone was teaching a class, and one of the questions was like, hey, I see that cookbook on your shelf. What is that cookbook? What are the cookbooks you have in your house? And the person who's teaching took a moment and she said, hey, this is super fun. Let me go grab my stack of cookbooks. And then she went through and did a show and tell and talked about who were the creators, the food bloggers that had inspired her and what were her favorite recipes and what are her cookbooks. Someone was like, when are you writing your next cookbook? It was just this, like, really fun moment that took, you know, less than five minutes. But that just happen if you don't have the serendipity of, like, a really live, engaging, interactive experience with people who really do really want to support you.

Yeah, that's cool. How much do you have to be an entertainer to be successful with it? Like, if somebody is, like. Cause a lot of people who. I would guess who. Bloggers, maybe Instagram. They're like, hey, this is super comfortable for me. Like, I can write, I can photograph, I can, like, tweak this recipe a little bit. But then it's like, it's different. Like, right now, you and I are talking, and I look down and I see, like, record. And I know every single word that I'm saying is being recorded, and it'll eventually be broadcasted, but even this, like, we can go back and edit it. When you're live, you're live. And that's kind of scary for some people. Some people thrive on it. So how do you know if it's a. It's something that you can do and be comfortable with? And can introverts do live events? And if so, how do they be successful with it?

Yeah, so. So first, you know, we. We see tons of folks, and that's one of their first questions when that they ask us is like, do I have to, like, entertain people? And do I have to be super high energy? And the answer is no. Like, you just. You just have to be yourself. And, you know, if you want to do it, awesome. Like, go for it. You don't have to if you don't want to. But what I'll tell you is every person who does it, like, says, this is super fun.

It's a.

It's a group of people together. You know, you're sharing an experience that you really love. You know, there is, you know, there's some elbow grease that goes into it. It's not.

No.

No work. And, you know, maybe you get some butterflies before your first one.

Yeah.

One person in particular, Serena Wolf, who was another person, one of the first people to start teaching on Air subs. And then now, I think she just did a class last night with, like, a few hundred people in it. And she's awesome, and she's, like, really funny and really high energy and great, but also is just, like, so willing to laugh at herself and beat down earth. And, like, she's constantly, like, you know, cracking jokes at her own expense, and she's just not taking herself seriously. She told me this story the other day, and she's told other people publicly. She was, like, shaking a cocktail, and then she put the top on, and the thing went everywhere.

Yeah. In some sense, people kind of like that. Yeah.

And so the other thing, too, is just with Live as A medium, the bar is lower when it's live. If it's recorded, the bar actually counterintuitively gets a little bit higher. Because people may be expecting a little more production value live. If, like, you know, the pot clangs in one direction, like, no one really cares because, like, they're actually, like, really focused on their own kitchen and cooking the thing themselves.

Yeah.

So, you know, it's actually. It's an. It's sort of counterintuitive there, where the energy is, like, really casual, and so you don't have to make it more, you know, more serious than it is. You can kind of just show up and be yourself. And we see people who are super talkative, and then we see people who are much more introverted and serious. And it's really just about, like, getting people together who are passionate about something.

Yeah. And part of it is, what are you. What are you selling it as? Like, if you're selling it as entertainment, you should probably be entertaining. If you're selling it as. Get the information you need to have meal prep accomplished for the week, you know, on a. On a Sunday, if you can deliver on that really well. But you're not super entertaining.

Great.

Like, you've still delivered on the thing that you said that you're gonna deliver on. Probably better if you're also entertaining and engaging and interesting, which isn't always an easy thing to do. Like, especially if you're by yourself to. I've done this with solo podcast episodes where it's just like, you press record, and then it's just me talking into the mic for, like, half an hour to 60 minutes easier. Now, to your point, like, the first few times, you might have butterflies when you do it, but when you're first getting started, it's a new skill. Like, it's a new thing. And I think insofar as people can view that as. It's not the same as writing a blog post. It's not the same as doing Instagram. It's not even the same as doing, like, Instagram Live.

Yeah.

It's a new thing that you're gonna. Unless you have previous experience with it in some form. You're an actor, or you've done improv, or you've done cooking classes or has taught before. You probably have to have some learning that goes along with it, which is expected.

Yeah. And I would think on that spectrum of entertainment and education, like, edutainment, like.

Yeah.

Yeah. Like, no matter where you are, like, you'll be somewhere on that spectrum. And that's okay. The thing is just sort of being authentic to you and not trying to be somebody else. Yes. Something that you're not. And you definitely don't need like acting experience or like tons of public speaking experience. You know, again, it's sort of like, I encourage people to just try one and see how you like it because chances are like you're going to get a ton of energy from like the other people who are there and it's going to be this really cool, fun thing. You know, Again, like, totally. Like someone described it as like, I feel like I have a, I'm hosting a dinner party. Like I have like a, like a party to, to go to, but I don't like cook for everyone. And it's also like I'm sharing something that I know because I'm already comfortable. I've already like, I already know how to make this. I've talked about it. I'm an expert here. And so it can be really kind of this thing that you share that.

Yeah. And I think my point in it is if people show up and they're super nervous to do it, or even if it doesn't go well, maybe they do show up and it goes through and is like, that was kind of fun, but it was also super nerve wracking. That doesn't mean that you should weed yourself out as somebody who can't do that. Um, and some people might not be interested in it and it's like just, you don't have to have to be somebody who, you know, does all the things. But I think again, what's really exciting for me about something like this is it introduces an opportunity for those who do want to pursue it or would be a good fit to create a product. Like, this is the thing that I'm offering to people who, If I have 100,000 people in whatever form, Twitter, Instagram, my website, who are showing up and I've never asked them to purchase anything. And now it's like, hey, here's something that's going to be a little bit better. It's going to be more personal, it's going to be tailored in a different way. It's going to be different experience everybody listening to this will have. I could go so far as to promise at least like one, you know, maybe 10, maybe 100 people who would fall into that bucket and be willing to pay to have some form of education, entertainment, edutainment, whatever you want to call it, like something fun, experiential that will help them become better as well. Yeah, they'll learn. You learn in a different way than you would watching a YouTube video or, you know, reading a blog post or consuming a content on Instagram.

Yeah. And they also have something to teach, right? Like, they, they. Yeah, they have the market for that. There's people who would are really eager to do with them, but then they also have something to say. They have, like, an expertise to share. And then.

Yes.

On your concept of like, of selling a product and, like, having something to offer people, like, I think it's worth revisiting, like, just this concept of different paths to monetize. So I totally agree with you. People are realizing that having people pay you directly for something is really powerful. When we're buying a product from you and where you own the customer relationship because you're selling them something, they know what they're getting. They know the value that's ascribed to it, and they're paying for it, and they get it in return. And there's just, like, something about that relationship which is really amazing as a creator and also as a entrepreneur, as a business owner, where someone is paying you for something that they really want and you own that customer relationship. It is not the case that you're monetizing through a third party. And so one of the limitations of existing platforms is that you really are monetizing through a third party. And so whether it's on your blog, when you're trying to increase eyeballs to sell more ads like you are, someone is the product, someone shows up to your blog, you're essentially the product, and that's okay, that's totally fine. But it is really powerful when you have a direct relationship with them and you have these platforms that you're using, and they are really catalyzing a lot of your revenue. So with your blog, if you're super reliant on eyeballs, a ton of those people are finding you through search through Google, you're really focused on SEO, and that can change really quickly, and you have to stay on top of it. Same thing with Instagram. Like, everyone knows that their algorithm changes a ton. Like, it definitely prioritizes certain types of content at different moments in time. You know, I was talking to someone yesterday, and he has gone from 0 followers to 240,000 followers in the last four months because he is absolutely crushing food reels. And so they're really pushing real super hard.

And it was video three years ago.

Exactly. And you can be on the other side of one of these algorithm shifts. And when you don't own the customer relationship or when you're counting on eyeballs or reach through a platform. It's just really tough if something changes really quickly and you're not in a position where you have diversified revenue streams. So I think people are realizing, be a little less reliant on a platform. And with something like Air subs 2 you. Because someone is signing up for a class and they're paying you directly and they're signing up with their email, it's actually a really interesting way. It's sort of like a judo move with the platform where it'd be really useful to you if you had the email addresses of all your Instagram followers if they were like, I bought something for you from you previously. But you don't. And the only place that you can reach them is through stories and through, through posts. And so this is an interesting thing where when you're doing these classes, you know, thousands of people are taking them another way to reach that community, people who really knows you on Instagram. And I think the value of diversifying your revenue stream so, you know, you can do a little bit of everything. It doesn't preclude doing, you know, ads on, on your blog or sponsored posts or cookbooks. I think people, there's a lot of reasons that people write cookbooks, but there's just another feather in your cap. And then there's also like, paid newsletters is like another interesting thing that people are doing. And this concept of like trying to generate some recurring revenue so you can kind of predict how much money you're going to earn in a given month is really powerful.

Totally. Yeah. And even if, you know, the takeaway that I have from what you're talking about is like being intentional. Think about not just growing on Instagram, not just growing your blog, but also to think about, is there another place where you're capturing that relationship with people? Email being a great example. Doesn't always have to be, you know, it would, it would. I. I would almost be interested in kind of flipping that a little bit to say, like, maybe the funnel is like top of funnel, right? It's Instagram followers, it's blog followers. Then it's like some free offering via email. So you capture like a bit broader and the ask isn't monetary and then using that email list to say like, hey, we have this class coming up and it probably can be a both and. But helpful to have just general email subscribers not associated with the purchase. But also if there are people who are purchasing on air subs or whatever it might be, then you have both of those places where you can say, hey, I have people who have repeat customers. Those are the easiest customers to have be customers again. And people have said, I want a more closer relationship with you than just following on Instagram. I'm going to sign up for your email list. You can market through that as well. I think it's an unlock for a lot of creators and we can kind of wrap on this where a lot of people said like, what do I do with my email list? You know, Pinja VM has whatever it is, 150,000, 100,000 email subscribers. What do we do with them? And it's like, well, we're just trying to figure out how to like send them more helpful information. But we're not really selling anything. It's easier. With Food Blogger Pro we have a membership, like, which is essentially like a version of what Air Subs is doing. Like it's content that you are selling and then you're creating content around that for free. This podcast and then talking about the membership so you can see the model makes sense to me. There just hasn't really been a good way to piece that together, which I think that you guys are doing. Obviously a lot of people are going to be interested, Thomas, in following up and learning a little bit more. Maybe even like demoing a class. I know that you have some folks who, some great testimonials on your site, some super fit guys on there, the Fitsbo for me as I scroll through there. But if people want to check out Air subs, learn a little bit more about it and maybe even take a class that somebody's offering to see what that looks like. What's the best way to do that?

Yeah, definitely. So you can always find us on@airsubs.com and you can sign up right there for to create your virtual studio, create your virtual cooking school. You can email me tomasirsubs.com you can follow us at Airsubs on Instagram. Those are great places to hear from us if you go to airsubs.com summit. We actually just recently did a conference for food creators where we had some really amazing people come speak about how they've built engaged communities, how they're using virtual classes and how they've built big six figure businesses doing virtual events over the course of the last year. The recordings of those sessions are on that page. So yeah, feel free to reach out to us or to me. It's been amazing to see the community in and around food. Use this to bring people together and deliver A ton of joy over the last year. It's been a really hard year for a lot of people. And I think one thing that's interesting too is that from what we're seeing, this is here to stay. Folks from all over the world who want to cook with you, they want to get together with the community, they want to make something delicious. And so it's kind of been amazing to see it take shape and continue to grow.

Cool. That's great. And I did what most people do to me, I would say two to three times a week, people say, Bjorn, like, good to see you. Or like, I'll introduce myself and they'll be like, oh yeah, Bjorn, Tomas. I said, Thomas, how often does that, does that happen to you? More or less than people call me Bjorn.

I get everything, but I actually didn't even notice.

Okay. That's what I sometimes say, even when I notice. So I might call you out on that.

But you're all good. You're all good.

Okay, well, appreciate it. Thanks so much for coming on. I know that there, this is my prediction, there's going to be a handful of people who will be inspired by this, will move forward with it and it'll make a huge impact on them. And that's what we're all about. Tinybit exists, our parent company over Food Blogger Pro to help people get a tiny bit better every day forever. And I think this will be a piece of the puzzle for some people. Eye opening and potentially life changing. So, Tomas, thanks for coming on the podcast. Appreciate it.

Thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Another thank you to Tomas for coming on and talking through air subs. Not only his story in building the business, which is always interesting, but also the stories of creators who have had success with creating courses or creating experiences where they are able to bring a group of people together to teach something, but also to gather people together digitally to kind of hang out.

Something that we've realized is an important.

Thing to do in a time where you're not spending a lot of time with people. Hopefully that changes little by little. But my hope in having this conversation is to kind of broaden the focus of what we are doing as creators and to let you know there's other ways that we can be thinking strategically about business building. And as much as you can diversify the types of revenue as possible, you'll build in stability to your business. Because as things change, we think back to March and April of last year, huge change in how our business has worked, right? Advertising spend went way down, at least in the food and recipe spend food and recipe area. But if you had other areas that you're creating an income, maybe you had, you know, you were using air subs or a comparable type of kind of product offering, you would be able to kind of diversify a little bit and you'd have a safety net when one area shifts and changes and pivots. So a great conversation, a great business, one that we'd encourage you to check out if that's something you're interested in and appreciate you listening to this podcast. If it wasn't for you, we wouldn't be able to do this. So each and every week it's a joy to be able to share these interviews that we have.

I know that I learn a lot.

From them and my hope is that you do as well. The reason we exist is because we want you to help get a tiny bit better every day forever. I hope this podcast episode did that for you and we will be back here same time, same place next week. Thanks.

Sa.