310: The Confident Pitch - How to Naturally Build Relationships with Brands with Candice Ward

Hello, hello, hello, this is Bjork Ostrom. You are listening to the Food Blogger Pro podcast and today's interview is with Candice Ward from Eat More Cake by Candice. She's going to be talking actually about photography and building a photography business and how she pivoted a few different times into this business, some of the reasons why, and also how she was able to use her background in sales to have a pretty quick on ramp into building a successful business where she's able to work with clients, get paid, and how she's able to do that off of a pivot from her previous business of cake making and reach a pretty successful stage in a short period of time. And I know for a lot of us, we talk about this idea of tiny bit better every day, forever, how it takes a long time and we need to commit to something not for weeks, but for years. But as much as possible, we want to shorten that time period and get to what we consider to be success. It looks different for everybody, but what you would consider success as quickly as possible. And Candice is going to talk about how she did that with a food photography business and why she had to do that in the midst of COVID and global Pandemic and all of that. So it's an inspiring interview and I love how Candice talks about her hustle and using her background in a different area of sales to kind of create this hybrid skill set. It was photography, it was sales, it was an understanding of what clients needed. And she's going to talk about what that looked like and how she rolled all of that out in a short period of time and was able to get some traction early on. Hope you enjoy this interview with Candice. Let's go ahead and jump in. Candice, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Yeah. Excited to talk to you about your story. There's a couple different iterations in a short amount of time. Sometimes we'll talk to people and it will be like, you know, I did this for like five years and then it kind of shift and evolved and I did this for five years. But really over the past two years you've not switched directions, but evolved. You've kind of built on your past successes and had to change your business, starting with COVID which is true for a lot of people. It shook up a lot of our lives, business and personal. Tell me about what happened with your first business and then when was the day that you realized this probably isn't going to be My business, at least for the next few months and then turned into essentially a year of things looking very different for the industry that you were in. So tell that story.

I actually started as a baker in the wedding industry about six years ago and I was building that alongside working a corporate job in sales. And when I had my son two years ago, that's when I decided I'm going to quit my corporate job, pursue my business in the wedding industry and grow that even further. And then Covid hit last year and the wedding industry that actually simultaneously I had been left my corporate job for about six months. So, okay, I need to now monetize further for the wedding industry. And then Covid hit. So that's when I said, okay, weddings are on hold. I need to find another revenue stream pretty quickly. At that time I decided to learn food photography and essentially I said my photos need to be better. I had also been blogging just as a byproduct, not really necessarily to monetize, to track my recipes. And so I really buckled down and said I'm going to learn food photography and then I'm going to make this my career. So that's what my focus was during COVID last year. Yeah, with the photography side.

So you were doing cakes before, what is that like to. It feels like it would be potentially kind of a stressful thing. Like anything in the wedding industry feels like it'd be really stressful. We have a really good friend does wedding video and it's kind of like you have one shot to do it, which is like different than blogging where you can kind of iterate, you can change copy, you can go and adjust photography, you know the photos, you can develop the recipe and tweak it. But like you have one shot with a wedding cake and people you, you're kind of, are you having to execute on somebody's vision? They're like, here's what I want it to look like. So is everything kind of custom when it comes to the cakes that you're making?

Yes, it's very time consuming. I actually had my business model less around wedding cakes and I was doing more dessert tables, so. So my niche was kind of small bite sized desserts to take that stress and pressure off of doing these elaborate three tiered custom cakes. So I really, my ideal client was somebody that just wanted a small cutting cake. So it was a little bit more manageable and I was hoping to scale that. But again, at the time I was working a corporate job so I only had so much bandwidth and that's when I was like, you know, this isn't for me. I don't know if I can. The wedding industry is a whole different ball game. It's a lot of stress.

And so. But it sounds like there was a point you did want to go all in with that you'd left your corporate job in sales, and you said, hey, I'm going to try and scale this. And that was for a year, two years. So you're kind of in the process of building up that business. And then Covid hit and you're like, wait, there's not going to be people sitting around a table eating cake for at first we were like, weeks, and then we're like months, and it turned out to be much, much longer. What was that like for you to have so much energy into a thing and to be excited about potentially building it, and then for all of that to go away? Was that discouraging?

Yeah, it was very discouraging. I had just invested money in a marketing campaign and sent flyers to all of the wedding planners for a referral program. And it was probably two weeks later that Covid really hit. And at that point, I was like, I need to do something quickly because I don't want to go back to my corporate job. I want to take care of my son, and I want to make my business thrive. So it was really discouraging, but I knew I had to do something quick.

Yeah. And so at that point, you're starting to look at other options. If you know that you don't want to go back to kind of a more traditional corporate job, you know that weddings aren't going to come back in the near future, then it's looking at what you do have, which is like, expertise and insight around a very specific thing, which is cakes. Right. And then you also have some of these skills that you'd maybe been developing a little bit, but it sounds like kind of on the side photography, building your blog. How did you go about saying this? Knowing what I have now available to me, knowing what I don't have because of the way industry shift, how did you pick which direction to go coming out of that?

So, ironically, I had actually purchased a photography course like a year prior, and I had never had the time to actually do it.

Sure.

So I said, you know what?

Now suddenly you had time?

I had time. And I said, my photos need to be better for marketing on my social media channels as well as my blog. And so my only thought really at the time, I didn't really understand how to monetize as a food photographer, I just knew that I needed to improve on that skill. And I also did have a interest in photography. I had taken some courses in college just for fun. So it had been a hobby of mine. And at that point I was like, you know, I'm going to buckle down, I'm going to take this course. I'm going to see how it impacts me. And then after I took the course is when I was like, okay, this is really what the direction I'm gonna go.

Yeah. What was the course and what were the biggest takeaways from that that you remember that were kind of unlocks for you?

It was the photography school course. And the biggest takeaways was. I mean, it was really just a foundational photography course. I mean, for anyone who's intro starting out, it was really approachable. I could complete it really quickly, so I didn't have to spend months on it. It was, you know, a couple, two to three weeks. But the aspect that I really liked and the whole reason I even purchased it from the beginning, was that there was a component on the business side of building a food photography business, which I think is a really underserved part of the industry. And so I said, if I'm going to do this, I want to at least make money off of it. I don't want to just be a hobby food photographer. So that was the biggest takeaway, just knowing the different revenue streams and how you can monetize.

Yeah. And so coming into it, you knew, all right, I'm going to learn photography. I'm going to be able to apply this with what I'm doing with my blog. And we talk a lot on the podcast around. Hey, here's how you can scale a blog in order to get sponsored content to get more traffic so you can run ads like that as a revenue stream. But one of the things we're trying to do a better job of is talking about, hey, that's not the only path. Like, you can do creative work and build a business and build a brand in your area of interest. And it doesn't have to be building a blog. That's a great way to do it. We've done that. Other people have done that, but you can also. There's a lot of different paths. And one of them is you can use your creative skills, photography as an example, to book clients and to start connecting with people who need that for their business. Restaurants, maybe other creators or publishers, maybe it's food brands to, in this case, like, capture really incredible photographs. So at what point did you say, hey, I think the next version for me is actually going to be trying to connect with brands or creators or maybe it's somebody else. I'd be interested in your thoughts on that, to try and pitch them my services. When did that come along in the process for you?

It was three months after I took the course. It was very fast. I just said, I have to make money. So I was very motivated. And again, I learned the course and I was practicing for my own blog. I was taking pictures weekly for the recipes that I was developing for my blog. It was going on my social channel, so simultaneously building that as well. And then I started networking and reaching out to brands through Instagram and ended up getting my first sponsored post three months later. And I'm happy to say a year and some months later, they're still a client of mine, so something's been working.

Yeah. When you say sponsored post, is that on your blog or on Instagram? You connected with them and they paid you to photograph and to promote a product of theirs?

Yep. So I did an Instagram post, I developed a recipe using their product, did an Instagram post, and then I also did a blog post.

Got it. And I think for a lot of people in the early stages, they're like, how does that happen? And I know that you're in. We're recording this end of May. It'll come a little. A little bit later. And you can talk about the course you're doing, combining your corporate sales background, pitching, and talking to food photographers about how they can all put that together. So you have some experience and expertise in pitching to brands. So how did you do that in the early stages to get a deal like this? Because a lot of people are interested in doing similar things but don't know where to start.

I love that question, because I don't want to say I was clueless in the beginning, but I would say the biggest challenge, I think, is finding that first client, or at least that's the conception. The other misconception is a lot of people think they have to have a certain amount of blog traffic or Instagram followers. I did not have a large following at all. I had under 3,000 people. I did not have a lot of traffic going to my blog. My pictures were okay. They weren't. You know, over time, your skill set gets better. And really what I did and what my approach was is I just asked myself and took a step back and said, well, what audience am I trying to attract to my blog and what types of products align with that and align with my brand values. So I really first targeted companies that were in complete alignment with my brand, my voice, my audience, because it makes the most sense to reach out to those brands when there's already that alignment and it feels natural.

Yeah. And so you go through this process and Lindsay was just. We were having a conversation about wife Lindsay. She runs Pincher Vium for context this last night, talking about sponsored content like you do at 10 o' clock at night when you both work on a blog together. And she's like, the best type of sponsored content is when it doesn't feel like work because it's brands that I really like and use and they're really highly aligned. And I feel like we're lucky enough to have a lot of those relationships on Pinch of Yum. Aldi being an example. Like, hey, we would shop at Aldi, you know, even if we weren't working with them. Delalo is another company that we work with. But if you're in the early stages, how do you go through that refining process? And do you feel like, do you start with brands that are smaller in a similar way, so you're not reaching out to like Target or something like that? How do you actually get heard when you're in the early stages?

Yeah, that's a really good question too. So I also do business coaching and I just reference that because in a lot of my coaching calls, this is a question that constantly comes up. How do I. Who do I know to reach out to when I'm just starting out? And I find that a lot of people are going for the after the big companies. And it's not to say that it can't happen, but typically the sales cycle is going to be longer or it's going to be more difficult to actually get the contact of the correct person or they might be working with an agency. So it's just a little bit more complicated. So I always tell people to start with local companies if you live in a foodie type place. I live in Seattle, so I'm fortunate to have a lot of local food companies. And local is a great strategy. First, I was just reaching out to local restaurants. I didn't end up doing anything in that direction. But again, this was my strategy when I first started. I was reaching out to local restaurants and said, hey, the pandemic hit. You guys are closing your restaurants, but you need photos for, you know, GrubHub and all of these food services to do takeout orders. And I was just offering my services at the Time, I said, I will offer it to you at a discounted rate to build my portfolio, you know, in exchange for the food, I would keep the food. And then in terms of sponsored posts and brands, I was picking and choosing smaller brands, but more niche. So for example, my baking blog. And again, this really goes back to knowing what your, your own brand is, I think having a clear understanding of that. So my particular brand is focused on desserts, but focused on using quality ingredients. So I said, okay, what companies are smaller that I can approach that have really quality, high quality products? So that's kind of what the strategy I took initially. And then I would just start kind of again, networking, engaging with them on social media, trying to get a contact that way.

What does that actually look like when you say networking? Because I think for some people it's like, do you just like, do you pitch right away? Do you open up with like, hey, love your brand? Do you maybe use the brand and say, like, hey, I used it. How do you go about doing that? Well, when you say networking, what does that actually look like?

It's all of those things. I. Yeah. So that you can really do it in many different ways. You can either go buy the product, use it, take photos of it for your blog, show them examples of the actual product you're producing or images you're producing before because you're showing them value, or you're giving them a vision of what it would be like if they hired you. Right. That's one strategy. I actually didn't do that in the very beginning. What I did is I actually took a poll on Instagram of my audience and I asked them and I said, do you care about learning about the ingredients that I'm using? And I got 100%. People were like, yes, I want to know more about your baking ingredients. So I just took a genuine poll of my audience to gauge if they would be even interested in learning about these products. And then I would engage with the brand on whether it's their stories, just again, very natural and organically. Like if it needs to feel natural, on their stories, on their posts, engaging with them. And then I would send them a message basically saying, I love your brand. I use it. This is what I do. I pulled my audience recently and they want to know more about this brand product. And so you're showing and backing it up with analytics, which is much easier to gain a contact when you're first starting out and you have no experience shooting food products yet you don't want to say that. So I Was trying to back it up with analytics of like the value I could add to the brand in order to get, to get a contact.

And especially when it's, when it's a local brand or maybe a more niche brand, a lot of times that that's probably one person that's either on their team or maybe even the owner of that brand that's, that's doing the social. And so you, you have more of a direct line of communication once it gets to, you know, the ultimate example of Target. I remember touring Target, Twin Cities based company and we went into their like social media war room and it was like, like, like it was like 70 panels and it was like, oh my gosh, like this is like so extreme. And you, and you imagine trying to connect with somebody in a meaningful way with a brand like that, it just would be really difficult. Not that you can't. It's happened before, you know, for us, Target reached out. When Lindsay posted this was years ago, it was like 10, 10 healthy. It wasn't ingredients but like 10 healthy things you can get from Target. And it was her doing kind of this breakdown of it. And it was like, oh, Target team reached out. We've been sharing this internally so you can get in, but it's like it's different than when it's a smaller local brand and especially when you're in the early stages to kind of build on that. So when you were connecting with these brands, pitching was the idea that you were pitching your services as a food photographer or was it sponsored content?

In the beginning it was sponsored content. I didn't specifically say sponsored content, but brands and I still feel this to this day, just a year later, they automatically think that's the approach that you're going for. And since I've gained more experience, I know now understand how to pitch like the specific services that I want to offer for them instead of just keeping it generic and saying I'm a food photographer and this is what I do. Because sometimes they don't have a need for sponsored content, but they have a need for freelance photography. Maybe they just need images for their website or to use on their social media, but you know, it comes from a different budget than their sponsored content budget.

Yeah, it's like product related as opposed to marketing or advertising. So do you have, you know, for a pinch of yam, we have a media kit. It's like, hey, you want to work with us? Here's what it would look like on the blog or Instagram or whatever. Do you have essentially a version of that.

For food photography, I do, I have a media kit. I don't put my fees on there. It's a strategy that I use.

Yeah.

And I talk about it a lot. But I do have a media kit. I did create one. In the beginning. Brands often ask for it because they want to know what your numbers and your stats look like. And I think that's a really big challenge in the beginning because your numbers and your stats are not going to be as high.

Yeah.

So one strategy that I did to kind of combat that was I actually put just a couple of bullet points that were strengths of mind from the wedding industry. So if you have any prior experience or anything that's somewhat related, I would highlight that over your numbers. Like instead of putting your blog traffic or your Instagram following, I would put something different, highlight something else.

Yep. And so for the relationships that did work out, is it kind of a hybrid where you're doing sponsored content but then also giving them the rights to the photographs that then they can use? And in, in as you're starting out was what is your sense in terms of what people were hiring you for? Was it, were you leading with food photography? Hey, yeah, I'm going to photograph this. You're going to have this, you can use it on your social. I'm going to post about it as well. Or was it, hey, I'm going to lead with kind of sponsor content. And bonus, you can use these images as well.

I actually completely separated them. I think it was just easier for me in the beginning to understand, compartmentalize my revenue streams and the different ways that you can monetize as a food photographer or even a food blogger. So in the beginning I was more focused on sponsored content. But again I think it's because I just got into this routine of sending my media kit and I often found when you sent a media kit that brands automatically viewed you as an influencer or doing sponsored work versus a freelance photographer. So since then I have shifted and I now don't send my media kit unless it's absolutely requested. But when I first initially pitch and send my email, my strategy looks completely different. So now I actually research the brand pretty heavily before reaching out to them and I try to uncover what where their needs might be and then I strategically position my services based on that.

Yeah. Can you give an example of what that looks like?

Yeah. So I'll give you an example. The most recent example of a somewhat local company, an Oregon based, I'm in Washington, but also pretty well known company. So I reached out to them and I had done. I researched their website, their social media, and I kind of, the questions I ask myself are, you know, are they active on social media? Are they using images that they're repurposing from, you know, customers? Do they have a consistent feed or brand? And that tells me, okay, maybe they have a need for consistent food photography photos, not necessarily sponsored content, but again, consistent images that's produced by one photographer. And I uncovered that they didn't. There really wasn't consistency on their feed. It was kind of a combination of professional staged photos and the taking customer photos that were not so great. And then their website didn't have a blog, which again, they're food products. If you don't have a blog, having a blog is the easiest way to boost your SEO and to generate content and traffic. So I noticed they didn't have a blog. And so I initially reached out and said, here's some work that I've done with a similar type of product. So it was an ice cream company and I had created an ice cream cake that performed really well on Google for another client. So I basically said, this performed really well. I could create recipes using your product and develop and create, you know, consistent imagery for your website. Initially they came back to me and they were like, you know what, we don't have a need right now for sponsored content. Can you send your media kit? Which is a typical response. And so I at that point kind of thought it was dead in the water. We had nowhere to go from there. And I ended up reaching out to her and saying, you know, I've noticed that you guys have some lifestyle images, but not a lot if that's an area or direction that you want to focus on. Here's an example of more lifestyle images where I used a product but like, use it in a recipe and more lifestyle like action shot like they might.

Include in an email that goes out or.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

And so it sounds like their initial response back to you was a misinterpretation of what you were trying to say to them.

Yeah.

And you followed up and you're like, hey, let me try that again. Here's some other things that I could potentially offer you. So at that point, you're kind of going back and forth and almost like convincing them of the need that they have and showcasing how you could would be able to fill that based on previous work that you've done. At what point does it get to the point where you're like, great, and here's how Much it costs. What is your advice for people around putting together a package that will justify the time that they spent? Because we've been in the situation where like, hey, you get $100 per photo, but then you realize you're spending six hours developing the recipe, photographing it, and then you send it to them and they're like, great, but like, could you try it again with like the napkin? Tilt it a little bit. You're like, oh my gosh. Yeah, this is mind numbing. So how do you, how do you make sure that you're capturing the value that you're giving them in regards to the price without overshooting what they might have for a budget? And I think that's a kind of a scary conversation for some people.

Yeah. And this is my favorite question because this is where this is like my strength. So I'll just continue on this example for. So it all ties together. So this is what ended up happening. So I thought it was dead in the water. I came back, I gave her an example of what I could do for them, a more specific example. And I said, you know what, I'm actually not even trying to do sponsored content for you. I can offer free lance food photography photos. And she responded and said, you know, we actually do have a need for that. Can you provide some insight into what your rates are? And she asked me to send a rate card. I don't send rate cards. I think with freelance photography, the, the fee is typically higher because as you mentioned, they're either purchasing the rights to the images and it's usually more involved. They want a higher volume of images, it's more styled. So essentially what I had said to her was, you know what, I don't send a rate card. I create custom proposals for my clients. And in order to do that, I need a little bit more information from you so that I can build that custom proposal. So I really withhold my rates as long as possible until I'm in full alignment and understanding with the client of what their goals are and also where their needs are. And then that's where I build out my custom pricing.

Yeah. And then do you do that in like a app? Like are you doing it in QuickBooks and sending a proposal or, you know, there's other kind of proposal apps that you use. It's kind of a specific question, but I'd be curious to know.

I use Honeybook. I'm not sure if you've used it. So it was.

Yeah, that's when I'm familiar with it. Yeah, yeah.

It's amazing. I. I've been using it for like six years and it does everything from like invoicing contracts, proposals. It's basically how I manage all of my clients and my projects.

Yeah. And let's say this is the first time that somebody's doing this, or maybe they're doing it, but they're not doing it. Great. And they need to tighten up their system. What is the general framework for? Once you've information gathered, you know what they expect, you maybe know generally how long it'll take. What is the high level framework for then putting that together? Do you have kind of a day rate, you're shooting for hourly rate, or do you have going off of the budget they've given you any advice there?

Yeah. So one of the questions I ask, I either try to. I have one of two ways. I have a questionnaire that I'll either send that has a list of these questions so that I can understand the scope of the project. One of the questions being, what's their budget? The ideal scenario is to get on a call, like a discovery call, where you can talk through the scenarios, which is what we ended up doing. And I was able to uncover what their budget was. So from there I built my proposal around aligning as closely as possible with their budget. So there's a lot of ways you can break down your pricing, especially when it's freelance. Technically, food photography falls under commercial photography. So I do a creative fee and then I also do have like a line item for usage and licensing rights of the images. And then the third kind of line item would be any additional expenses. So if I'm going and buying food, props, or additional props required, that would be an expense. Or travel. Yeah, I shoot right now from home, so I don't have that expense. But yeah, if you were to travel or go on site, I know sometimes people have to rent airbnbs for beautiful kitchen, more lifestyle images. That would be an additional fee. So I try to keep it really simple for the client.

Yep. So there's not all these tiny little items that they're having to add up and just keep it relatively simple. Which makes sense. So for somebody who's just getting started, do you go and shoot kind of for free to build your portfolio? And at what point do you start actually charging? And do you have a. It's always such a hard thing to say, like here's a range, but what range can you expect to make from doing freelance photography? Don't have to share your specific numbers, but just so people have an idea. Is it like, hey, you're going and you're shooting and you're getting 250 bucks a day? Or can you make $2,500 a day? What does that look like?

Yeah, it's. So I'll just kind of explain the difference between sponsored versus freelance. So sponsored is the rate's really going to be more contingent on your audience. And what I mean by that is how many followers you have, like how many people you're essentially saying to this company or the product, this is my audience. I'm giving you access to them. So you know if you have a larger following, you're going to make more money. It's simple as that.

More value for the brand.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Or if you have a higher engagement. I know they're looking at engagement now. So that sponsored content, I feel like there's a little bit less wiggle room to negotiate, and it is based on those numbers, which is why in the beginning I was doing it to build my portfolio, but I knew that I had to diversify and I knew freelance would actually offer more. And the reason why freelance typically offers more is because again, sometimes they're buying full rights to the images. Not always. You can again, negotiate that on your contract, but usually the job is just more involved. There's like a higher volume of images that they're requesting. There's just more specifics when it comes to styling. So the range is definitely more in the thousands versus the hundreds. Most freelance clients that I've worked with, they end up wanting 10 plus images. So it's not just sponsored content where maybe they need one to three images. You're producing a higher volume of images. So there's definitely more potential for being paid a wider range, if you will.

And that makes sense. And especially if you're in the early stages, let's say you're a super sharp photographer. That's the direction that you want to go. You don't have a real strong following online. Doesn't matter. Because the skill set that you're building and selling is your ability to capture incredible photos for a brand. And the difference that I hear you saying a little bit is when you're doing it in the sponsored content capacity, you are first and foremost yourself publishing a photo that matches your brand and then like sprinkling in the partnership the brand that you're working with. When you're doing freelance, you are, in a way kind of absorbing yourself into that company or that brand and trying to capture fully their style and aesthetic and what they're going for. You might showcase that on your site or maybe you publish it as a recipe. But it's less sponsored content, it's more freelance. Like, I'm going to try and do this so you can put it on social. And people won't think, wait, this isn't connected with the brand. It'll just seem like something that they took in house that matches how they style things and how they work. So one of the things you said was you're doing these remotely, so you're not like, going on location to do the shoots. Can you talk about what that looks like in terms of brand matching and styling and how you're able to do that without going to their, like, shoot location or using all of their stuff in the background? Are they particular about how that looks and how that works?

Yeah. So essentially, I've only done freelance work at this point for brands that have fit. Again, I've been doing food photography for just over a year. So I've really approached brands, mostly local actually, for my freelance side of things, that their aesthetic is something that I already know I'm comfortable aligning with and reproducing. So, for example, if you have a light and bright style, I'm not approaching brands that have a dark and moody style. It's just more work for me. I have. And yes, so what they do is they provide a shot list which is very specific about the colors they want, if they have any particular background. Most of these clients have wanted more of like, a kitchen setup. So I just use my backdrops that have a kitchen style setup. I switched to artificial light so I have more flexibility now with lighting, with packaging consistency there. But really it's just a matter of using my props that exist in my home. I did have one client that, you know, their logo was blue and they wanted blue linens, for example, in the photo. And they actually had, you know, blue linens. And they just sent it. They just mailed it to me. So it was really easy.

They knew exactly what they wanted and they said, we're just gonna send it to them. You don't have to find it. We'll just put it in the mail.

For you, which is ideal, right?

Right. And so for the brands that you're working with, talk about what that looks like in terms of their involvement through the shoot process. Because a lot of times, you know, rewind 10 years, you'd maybe go on location or. We had some friends who have a studio. This was one of the very early podcast interviews we did. And they had a studio and they would do shoots with like, Caribou Coffee, which is. Do you guys have Caribou Coffee in Seattle? So Caribou Coffee was a Minnesota company, and then slowly has kind of expanded out. But they would do shoots for Caribou Coffee. So, like, you go and look at the menu and they would be the ones that would shoot that. But they would be in on location with Caribou. They'd come into their studio and, you know, they'd look at the screen as they're shooting it. How involved is the brand as you're doing these shoots? Knowing that, you know, it's probably. You maybe have somebody helping occasionally, but it's just like you shooting stuff and then you show it to the brand. What you don't want to do is that have them come back and be like, oh, awesome. But we were hoping that it would be xyz, like, look a different way if you go back, reshoot the whole thing. So you're checking in with them throughout or you're just really intentional to communicate to a point where you know exactly what they want before going into it.

Yeah, I think it's important to establish what line of communication they want while you're shooting. And it depends on the product, too. So I had one client that essentially, instead of doing all the work, so it was 15 images, but it was multiple different products throughout their product line. So I had to style each product separately, and that's what took a lot of time. So instead of doing all of it in one day, and it was the first time working with them, I. What I did is I shot one product on one day. I edited the images, I sent them a gallery, and I said, do these align? This is an example what I've done for one of the products. And just do like a check in before you invest all of your time shooting everything. And I got really good feedback. And I was like, okay, this is what I'm going to tweak for the rest of the photos, or what I need to alter and change. So that's what helped with that particular client. And then I have another client where they actually said, the day that you shoot, I'm going to be available via text. So you can send me a picture of your setup. We can approve it before, which obviously I appreciate because it eliminates me having to reshoot anything, which takes much longer.

Yep. When you say send them a gallery, what does that mean? And how are you doing that?

I send. Yeah. So I send, you know, for example, if they want two final images for one Product, I might send them a gallery of eight images so that they can see different ways that I've styled it. And I send it through the website that I use. I mean, you can do it through Dropbox. There's a lot of different ways. But I use Pixieset because you have the ability to create a professional, beautiful looking gallery. I don't have the paid version, I use the free version. And then essentially you can make it so that they can't download the images, they can just view the images and then they can favorite their top images. Cool. So that just, it allows you to.

Interact a little bit and comment and. Yeah, it's, it's interesting as things become remote, especially Covid, but just teams in general become remote. How important those types of tools are? We use like for video, there's a pro version of Vimeo and it's like that allows Emily, who's in Ohio recording video, to upload it. And then like Rita, who's in Minneapolis but doesn't come into the office.

Yeah.

To like comment on certain sections. And so those tools are just so important as you get into working with the remote team. Tell me a little bit about being one year in. I think it's super inspiring for people to hear. A lot of times we'll speak with creators who have been doing something for like five years or 10 years and they're like solidly into this as their career. And for people who are just starting, it's like, oh, like, that's interesting. But they've been doing it for so long. What's inspiring with your story is you were able to get this up and running relatively quickly and have some success with earning an income from it. You're connecting with clients, you're. You've established this business within a year. What are some of the things that at this point you're like, wow, this is awesome. I really love this. And then what are some of the things where you're like, gosh, this is a lot harder or more difficult than I thought it would be. In regards to doing freelance photography with brands.

The awesome part is when you connect to the client. Like you've already said, that is in total alignment with you and it's just fun and you get to be creative and that's the best part. And I love recipe developing. That's why I started baking in the first place. So to be able to tie and bridge all of those together, those creative outlets is amazing. Some of the challenges is finding clients. I don't have clients. I went from 3k to 11k followers, you know, over the last year. And you. Everyone thinks once you hit the 10k mark that they're knocking on your door. Yeah, no, they're not. And you know, you have to be proactive with reaching out and pitching. Some people are fortunate to have brands reaching out to them. And I shouldn't even say fortunate because it takes hard work to even be visible to brands. And it's usually in the form of you've grown in some capacity, whether it's on social or your blog, so they're noticing you, but if you're not one of those people, you, you know, it takes diligent framework and time to reach out.

Yeah, totally. It's. You can't sit around and wait for somebody to come to you. You have to be proactive in going to other people. What are you doing that through Instagram primarily, like direct messages, comments, or do you hop out and go to like email or, you know, other. Other ways of communicating with brands? Or have you found that it's primarily through social or Instagram that it's most effective?

I primarily start through social just with the sole purpose of gaining an email or a contact. And then I move to email and then I stick to email. And sometimes LinkedIn is a great place too, just to find, you know, who the person is in marketing or who the social media manager is as well. If you can't, if you're not getting a response. Not every brand responds through dm. So.

Yep, yep. And take it into email. How would you. How long would you say once you make that initial connection, it. Before you can get to the point where you're like, hey, and now we're working together. Because I think that's the other piece that maybe a lot of people don't realize. When you say it's a lot of work, you also have to be patient. Like sometimes it might be six months. I'm thinking of sponsor content relationships that we have where it doesn't work out. You stay in contact, you continue to stay connected. But it takes. There's a long Runway before you're like signing a deal and working together. Have you found that to be the case?

Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, a lot of it is timing and relationship building. So I try to think of it as you're building a relationship. If anything, you're just building a relationship. You. The timing might not work out and that's fine. But I just keep a list of contacts and when I last reach out to them and I make sure to circle back at least once a quarter or I make sure to find out from the brand if they don't have a need. Ask them when they might have a need or when their budget. When they might have budget or you know, I always try to find out or I just say when is a better time for me to reach out to you. And sometimes they'll tell me, yeah, do.

You use anything to manage all of your contacts or any type of manager contacts and or manage like deal flow as you're thinking about kind of moving these different conversations along.

So I right now I use Excel. I just have an Excel form where I keep track of my contacts and then I'll have a. I call it the last next step. So I write the last time we corresponded with the date and then if I actually have kind of gone through the sales process a little bit further than just emailing back and forth, I'll use my Honeybook system to actually create a project. So let's say we were in talks or negotiations but then something didn't align. That's where I'll actually have like a project established and then I can keep track of it. They have a pipeline funnel where you can keep track of all of your projects through there.

Yeah, I've started to experiment with this. It's called Folk App. There's data right now, but it's like the only purpose of it is just like this data dump for. For contact stuff. It's been okay. I haven't used it a lot but just mentioning that for anybody else who wanted to check it out and then I think the one that we use for Pinch of Yum. I can't remember what it's. It's Basecamp started this. Think it was not Campfire. There's another management system for deals that Basecamp started and then they spun off. We'll link to it in the show notes that we use for pint of yam for other people who want to check that out. But one of the hard things that we've found with that is. Or that I found with it is number one like maintaining it, going back and updating it and then also doing a follow up with that. Like I would imagine part of the relationship building process is even if somebody says no that you're still checking in with them, it's not like you close the door. Are you going back and kind of actively checking in with having conversations with these different connections that you're making just to make sure that the connection stays not strong but just alive.

So what I do, I have. I'm actually going to be talking about this on. I'm doing a webinar on June 15, and this is literally what I'm talking about or my pitching strategies. But how you. There's really like two main pitching strategies that you can approach, and one of them is you can reach out to a high volume of. Of people. And I kind of outline like, the pros and cons of both strategies. There's not one that's right or wrong. But my particular strategy for my business right now is I actually reach out to a lower volume of brands, but with a much more targeted message so that I can manage follow ups better. Because I have noticed that it does take. It does take follow up in order to sometimes even get a response. And so I would rather have an intentional pitch email than just sending out a generic one to a high volume of people and maybe losing track of the follow up, because that's not as fruitful typically.

Right? Right. Yeah. It seems like that's the work part that you're talking about where you have to be smart about this. And it has to be if you have a blog, you think about content, you think about publishing, you think about SEO, you think about social media. If you're building a freelance business, one of the things you have to think about a piece of the pie of your time is relationship management. And I think it's something we don't talk a lot about, but it is really, really important. You talked about this webinar that you're doing. I need to double check the schedule for this to see when this goes out. But where can people follow along with kind of the. You talked about doing some of the coaching. The other piece that I'd be interested in hearing you talk about is you've done multiple iterations within the last year and a half of your business. Where you were doing, you had your wedding business focusing on cakes and desserts, and then you kind of pivoted into photography and doing freelance, and now you're pivoting again into doing, helping other people learn some of the things you've pivoted in this last year. So you're going out on maternity leave. Congratulations.

Thank you.

And talk a little bit about what that has been like to iterate multiple times. And you can use that as kind of a platform to talk about what this next version of what you're going to be focusing on looks like.

So my background actually ends up is in sales. So I spent 10 years in corporate sales and for the longest time I never talked about it in the creative industry. And never even mentioned it. And then I one day started talking about it when I started going into food photography and freelance and how I was able to get clients quickly and how I was able to get clients that aligned with my brand. And people just started asking me questions. And I said, you know what? There's an underserved part of the industry, and there's a lot of confusion around the pitching process. And not only that, but how to actually build revenue and how to do it quickly. So that's really what led me to offer coaching calls. I've only been doing it for six months, and I've had consistent clients because I've essentially said, how can I create what my process is for my corporate job? When you're in sales, you have to hit quota no matter what, right? So I was trained to learn how to create a system and how to be strategic with my time. So now I have translated that and I offer that advice to other food photographers and bloggers, which I've now shifted and said, hey, I'm going on maternity leave. How can I scale this and offer this while I can't actually be on phone calls anymore? Which led to me creating, or in the creation, I should say, of creating a pitch program that's really focused on gaining the confidence to pitch by giving you the tools, the resources that you need in order to effectively do that. And it's really designed for people that are either just starting out or. Or upwards of one to three years in, maybe they've had brands approaching them, but now they've reached the point where brands kind of have stopped and it's just been stagnant growth. It's a great option for those people as well.

That's awesome. One of the things I love about your story that you talked about there is, I think what we can do as we're thinking of building what we're building is look at all the different pieces of our story and say, how can we put this all together into making something unique that I can offer to the world? And for you, it's like photography. It's an understanding of blogging and blogging and social media and sales, and that's a really unique combination that you're able to put together and say, I have this skill and expertise in sales that has helped me quickly scale a freelance business. Other people would need to know how to do that. The other thing that I would say to podcast listeners, one of the things I've come to learn is as we're looking to scale what we're doing One of the best ways to do that is by finding people who are good at something that you aren't good at or don't want to be good at. And like, as quickly as possible downloading the information that they have, whether through educational program, you know, webinars, classes, coaching, and more and more, I've learned that our role as business builders and creators is like super routers. Like, okay, I have a sales question. I can't take the time to learn this. I need to route this to the direction of somebody who can advise me on what I should do here. And more and more I'm learning, like, hey, stuff is coming in for me. I can't be the expert on this. Who's going to do, you know, hr, who's going to do accounting, who's going to do sales. It doesn't have to be a full time team member. It can be somebody who's an expert. You're kind of like sales Sherpa. Like they're going to guide you on your path to understand sales better. So if people want to learn more about that, we'll link to it in the show notes. But where's the best place to go and find out more about coaching? Maybe if you're there listening to this years down the line when you're doing that again, if that is something you start doing again, or some of the programs and classes you're putting together.

Yeah, I just want to 100% echo what you said and I want to make it very clear that I have not gotten to where I am by doing it alone. I have invested in a lot of courses and a lot of training and just listening to podcasts, your podcast being one of them. I mean, honestly, like, podcasts are free resources right there. People can find me my a couple different ways. I'm very active on Instagram. I offer a lot of free business advice there. So my handle istmorecake by Candace. And the second best place would be my website, which is just www.eatmorecapefycandice.com. and there is a little bit about my coaching calls on there as well. And I will absolutely be picking those up in the fall. Just.

That's awesome. Yeah, good for you for taking some time off. Lindsay and I just, I did more of like a hybrid paternity leave. Lindsay went on maternity leave a few months ago. I know that you have a two and a half year old. We're kind of in the same point. Yeah, you're like, gosh, so wise to be able to take time to step back and just to really secure that that time to hang out with family. So. And really smart. And kudos to you for hustling to put something into place to kind of keep the business moving along. It's really inspiring to see. So, Candice, thanks for coming on, for sharing your story. Really fun for me to hear and I know people will get a lot out of it as well. So thank.

You.

That's a wrap for this episode. Thanks for checking it out. As always, you can check out the show notes@foodbloggerpro.com podcast and there's lots of other resources there. So make sure to check out the blog and if you are a member, as always, dive into the courses, the live Q&As that we have, the forums. Even if you have some follow up questions, maybe there's something that you had as kind of a curiosity or a question coming out of this. If you remember, go ahead and drop that question in the forum so we can dive a little bit deeper into this interview or any of the takeaways that you had from it. Candice, thanks for coming on to you listener. Thanks for listening. We really appreciate it. We will be back here same time, same place next week.

Sam.